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[lostinblue]

I have been reading the opinions of retro gamers on these HD CRT displays... not good. I'm bummed, 'cause I thought this XBR970 would be the solution to most of my problems. I'm gonna keep asking and reading to see if there is a harmony here, but I don't see one yet.

The TV has the potential to pull marvelous results, you're just ignoring the fact that you have to acquire or create a chain to get it to display what you want to.

It's a RGB enabled set via component and DVI, virtually no analog and 240p compatible TV in US is like that bar broadcast monitors because RGB was not available in NTSC, only S-video.

Hence there's no easy solution outside hunting down a Sony PVM/BVM, JVC Studio Monitor, Ikegami or Panasonic BT with RGBS inputs, who are not scart and need custom cabling - FUN


I'd grab one XBR970 baby in a heartbeat and make a man out of it, but that that you need to learn how to drive it. That's all there is to it.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

The TV has the potential to pull marvelous results, you're just ignoring the fact that you have to acquire or create a chain to get it to display what you want to.

It's a RGB enabled set via component and DVI, virtually no analog and 240p compatible TV in US is like that bar broadcast monitors because RGB was not available in NTSC, only S-video.

I'd grab one in a heartbeat and make a man out of it, but that that you need to learn how to drive it. That's all there is to it.

You are inspiring me, here! I am quite new to all this, so sorry for being so helpless. What do I have to do to make classic 240p games like on the NES, SNES, and Genesis look great on it?

 

[DracoBlade]

since you have an iphone try downloading an app called "camera plus" which works a little better for screenshots on crts and avoiding those refresh rate weirdness in ur pic

as for configuring the set, try the 240p test sweet if you have a Gen/MD, Sega/Mega CD, or Dreamcast
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

personally, I'd turn down sharpness instead of turning it up, but if that's your preference then so be it

Got it. I adjusted the sharpness a few notches and couldn't tell too much a difference but it was a little less stressing on my eyes lol.


I forgot about the suite thanks for the link going to test it out on my Dreamcast. Question will this change my tv settings or is it merely an evaluation suite to measure my tv's various features? I'm hoping I can correct this overscan issue that I'm almost certain I have at this point.

Speaking of issues I'm noticing with particularly reds (and to some extent blue's) what looks to be some severe color bleeding/after image ghosting (unless its not lol not sure) does anyone know how to fix or whats the cause of this as pictured:

(see the ghosting of the red letters)

?

 

[Mzo]

It's called your TV is old.

People that can work with CRTs can open it up and calibrate it better but it's almost an art to juggle it around. It'll never be perfect. Most repair places won't touch CRTs anymore, and if you try to do it yourself you could literally die.

It's a hard knock life.

 

[lostinblue]

You are inspiring me, here! I am quite new to all this, so sorry for being so helpless. What do I have to do to make classic 240p games like on the NES, SNES, and Genesis look great on it?

You need to trick the TV to show scanlines or at least proper 240p conversion to 480p being fed before the TV touches it.

scanlines were normal before because 240p represent half the lines of a normal TV (resolution being 480 pixeis tall), thing is said signal was never progressive because TV's couldn't display 480 lines at once, instead they refreshed 240 lines per field (60 fields per second) taking two fields to make a complete 480i image.

Hence you either had 60 incomplete frames (60 fps 480i games do this) or you have 30 complete frames per second.

This adds flickering because when even or odd lines are not refreshed they're black, but because each line does it 30 times per second it's more identifiable as flicker.

Anyway, then you have 240p, 240p was a hack and it's progressive due to that, remember these screen were unable to display 480 lines at once, well, but they were able to display 240 lines at once at all times, so instead of doing 480i, even because it would require quite a bit of RAM to do these systems opted to pull the same 240 lines instead, this means 60 frames per second were possible.

The black scanlines would be there because older TV's had no image processing going on so opting to refresh the very same lines all the time was accepted by them, they didn't try to fill the lines who weren't being used. This was a hack though, which is why 240p is not accepted as a standard and gets to be ignored so much.


More than that, they developed timing tricks to take advantage of CRT own timings. Namely, if transparencies were expensive they could alternate between the sprite being there and not. NES and Genesis did this a lot because they lacked proper transparencies. I'm sure you can place it with enemies dying and just flickering away.

This is called 30 hz drop shadow and it's an effect that gets destroyed if the signal gets interpreted as 480i and attempted to be deinterlaced. You have a suite for testing 240p here.


These HD CRT tubes do image processing on top of 240p and 480i signal, hence you need to add a processing engine to make it right. Which is why they do get a bad rap. In reality they're good, certainly a lot better "out of the box" than most LCD's albeit incomplete.

"Emulated" scanlines on a CRT a few pages back.

It's called your TV is old.

People that can work with CRTs can open it up and calibrate it better but it's almost an art to juggle it around. It'll never be perfect. Most repair places won't touch CRTs anymore, and if you try to do it yourself you could literally die.

It's a hard knock life.

You don't sound like a very positive person.

Speaking of issues I'm noticing with particularly reds (and to some extent blue's) what looks to be some severe color bleeding/after image ghosting (unless its not lol not sure) does anyone know how to fix or whats the cause of this as pictured:

Look for the service manual and look for on-screen calibrating options, that's a digital chassis so chances are you could do something via menus.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

^Ahh, so this is where devices like the XRGB (or something) come in? Or are we talking about heavy-duty modding of a television here?

 

[DracoBlade]

It's called your TV is old.

People that can work with CRTs can open it up and calibrate it better but it's almost an art to juggle it around. It'll never be perfect. Most repair places won't touch CRTs anymore, and if you try to do it yourself you could literally die.

It's a hard knock life.

Thanks for the help.(?)

I'm fine if it's an aged hardware issue just want some specifics seeing as though this is a great group of people who know much more than I about CRTs

 

[lostinblue]

^Ahh, so this is where devices like the XRGB (or something) come in? Or are we talking about heavy-duty modding of a television here?

Yes, these devices are image processing engines that overide the one on the TV.

They do get used a lot just so modern LCD's can look good while displaying retro stuff. But nothing beats CRT if you ask me due to the way light bleeds through on them. Scanlines on a CRT make it so white is grayer to the eyes, not on CRT's because it simply overides it.

But they need scanlines as much if not more than this set does when it comes to retrogaming just so the tendency to apply blur to the whole image can be broken, this because with black bars going on they can't full frame blur it the way they would otherwise:

This way detail gets to be respected by the TV scaler, even if the input is 480p for a 240p game. TV scalers are meant for DVD and hence they want to make it so that an upscaled movie doesn't appear pixelated. Since the TV can't treat it as 480i anymore too it won't destroy 240p effects.


You have a XRGB review here, which should help you understand what they're meant for and effectively do:

-> http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/framemeister.html

XRGB3 is the previous model and would be enough if found at a sufficiently low price. It's not your only choice as there are other scalers and chain solutions in the market provided they can plugged onto your TV inputs, but I'm trying not to confuse you too much. Anything listed as good on the initial "top 5 processors to buy for 240p content" are bound to be pretty good solutions.

Note of advice that it usually means some sniping on ebay for good prices, but some of them can be acquired on the cheap sometimes.

 

[IrishNinja]

that really should be their tagline:

XRGB's - they probably won't kill you

 

[balladofthewindfish]

All-right, I am going to spend a day or two reading about the technology and learn the meaning behind all the jargon. I am going to buy the TV and look into the solutions you gave me. I am going to give myself HW: I'm gonna read up and come back here in a day or two and discuss my plan and (hopefully) know what I am talking about. Thanks, lostinblue.

 

[DracoBlade]

Look for the service manual and look for on-screen calibrating options, that's a digital chassis so chances are you could do something via menus.

Thanks, looking thru archived online scans, the owner's manual doesn't necessarily elaborate on color bleeding, it could be due to Hue but I'm at a lost there, I have ordered a remote so I can access the service menu and adjust it internally (as my tv is cutting off the image on edges so I suspect its overscanning too.). But beyond that the on board tv menu's dont have very many options

 

[televator]

that really should be their tagline:

XRGB's - they probably won't kill you

...probably.

 

[Kaarina]

Thanks for the help.(?)

I'm fine if it's an aged hardware issue just want some specifics seeing as though this is a great group of people who know much more than I about CRTs

I'm pretty sure that the tube is just so old and worn out that it would need to be replaced. Adjusting brightness and focus propably is not going to help for bleeding issues.
Unfortunately it would be easiest and propably cheapest to just find another CRT TV. :/

 

[Gruso]

all the comments

That's very cool! it looks beautiful.

Two interesting things about CRT:
- Most TV with several Scart inputs only accept RGB on the first few ones, with consoles forced to output Composite* when plugged to the last one. What input each Scart accepts is usually written on the back or in the manual. Make sure AV2 is RGB too.
- Most TV switch themselves on automatically from standby when detecting Scart input, and Off when the console is turned off again. If you are using an external audio amp, you can just store the remote away.

*Composite signal is most always output alongside RGB in scart, with the TV only taking Sync from it when it detects RGB mode. If it can't use RGB signals, Composite is here as a backup.

Cheers guys, and thanks Khaz for the additional info. I'll have to double check that both SCART inputs are RGB. I've also decided to open it up for access to the service mode jumper. It's a nice friendly pair of bare prongs, so I can easily connect an externally mounted pushbutton.

I'm already harbouring thoughts of running the PC into it too...

 

[Khaz]

I'm already harbouring thoughts of running the PC into it too...

You'd need Windows with soft15kHz, a compatible video card, make a special cable... I like the idea but there's too many restrictions.

 

[Gruso]

I'm eyeing the UMSA: http://arcadeforge.net/UMSA:::15.html

Looks like the simplest VGA to SCART solution (requiring only stock cables), and as you mentioned would require running soft15kHz on the PC. The barrier is that it's my HTPC, and the TV would be a second screen. Even if that's possible for soft15kHz, it sounds messy so I might save that idea for a dedicated box one day.

In the meantime (and this is straying outside the scope of the thread) I've picked up one of those awful VGA to S-video converter boxes from ebay. It's not for gaming - the plan is to use the CRT to display live timing when I'm watching Formula 1. I think it's going to look cool.

 

[lostinblue]

Thanks, looking thru archived online scans, the owner's manual doesn't necessarily elaborate on color bleeding, it could be due to Hue but I'm at a lost there, I have ordered a remote so I can access the service menu and adjust it internally (as my tv is cutting off the image on edges so I suspect its overscanning too.). But beyond that the on board tv menu's dont have very many options

Hi, service manual and owner manual are very different things.

It's unlikely you can solve it via regular menus, but it is likely you can at least take some conclusion out of service menu.

Here you go:

-> http://elektrotanya.com/sony_kv-27fv15_29fv10_29fv15_29fv15c_29fv15k-ch.aa-2w.pdf/download.html

Service manual can be downloaded there.

Then go to Circuit Adjustments (read on how to get there and operate) and scroll down... you'll see it's all being done via menu configurations and pretty well listed, this is a Digital Chassis after all, so no real adjusting on the motherboard (opening it up wouldn't make sense bar for technical failure on the A-Board). Be aware that this is a menu where no layman should go, sometimes you can even mess with voltage and just fry your CRT on specific settings (you can't do it by mistake, they're usually voltage settings), so be careful, only mess with the things you know you can which is everything image related. I recommend actually printing the few pages that describe functions, and if something is not like the "initial data" camp for that option it means two things, someone already messed with it and you want to know why (I mean write it down then toggle it back to initial and see if it makes a difference, tech dudes also make mistakes and it could be what's causing the problem, we dunno). On the ones that are with the initial values and you see value in experimenting... Please do.

Likely culprits are, for RED (R) and BLUE (B) adjustments as well as electron gun alignment, as that ghosting might mean it's shooting red and blue into more than just the blue subpixel area/slot/grille. It's a flat trinitron too, so the problem might be focusing, tell me, does it do that only on the edges and not the center? if so it's clearly a focusing issue. Anyway service menus can usually solve that.


I'll also tell you this, in CRTs who have run it's course greens are usually the first ones to die (and you're not seeing the Green do the same thing as Red and Blue so I guess that means it's in line with this), but dying means less peak brightness, not bloom and color flooding like you're having on said colors. I'd say look for aperture but I don't seem to find it on the service menu options it probably has another name (but I've read it thrice now and must have missed it). What I'm trying to say is that ain't a signal of anything of the sort so don't listen to people that tell you it's garbage just yet.

Pretty "new" trinitrons in regards to operating hours are almost always used with brightness accounting for less than half the maximum. You can get an idea wether the screen has seen much use or not through there.


And seeing you're going there (service menus) you might as well calibrate geometry, so use these patterns on a console of your choice (good cables are reccomended)

-> http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

Good luck.

 

[jarosh]

Holy hell, there's a lot of confusion about this online...

CAN or CAN'T I use my European 220V power supply on a US NES? Some places say it's fine while others say it isn't.

I have the official NES-002ED European power supply:

INPUT: 220V (50 Hz, 17W)
OUTPUT: AC 9V 1.3A

Will this destroy my US/NTSC NES? From what (little) I understand, the NES expects AC, so since the AC adapter takes the 220V input from the wall and then outputs 9V AC (which is what both the PAL and NTSC NES expect), that's all that should matter, so it should work... but what do I know.

 

[Vark]

The power supply is just a transformer. So long as the listed input voltage on the transformer matches what's coming in from the outlet and the output voltage matches what's written on your device, it should be fine.

Both US consoles are rated at 9v 850ma

Us adaptors are 9v 1.3A so you're good to go. (Adding you live in Europe where at adaptor is meant to be plugged in).

The problem would be using a US adaptor in Eurpoe without a step down or vice versa with a step up to match mains voltage.

 

[7DollarHagane]

I'm fascinated by this stuff and there's so much I don't know.

The extent of my tweaking has been using SCART to component on a Trinitron CRT and adjusting the geometry on the set and the trim pots on the converter.

I can live with some color bleed and minor imperfections. That's part of the charm of analog video, I think.

 

[dhonk]

I've been looking around for a solution for upscaling my old game systems / more modern game systems. As much as I'd love having a CRT, its just not practical. I've got a Panasonic 720p Plasma that just looks fantastic. (Too bad its not 1080p, but that plasma.)
And I think the DVDO Edge is probably the most convenient for me. Anyone here have any experience with it?

Things I'd have plugged in: PS3, Gamecube via component cables, N64, SNES.

I realize the composite inputs are apparently mehhh, but Id be modding my stuff to get SCART out where I can.

 

[jarosh]

The power supply is just a transformer. So long as the listed input voltage on the transformer matches what's coming in from the outlet and the output voltage matches what's written on your device, it should be fine.

Both US consoles are rated at 9v 850ma

Us adaptors are 9v 1.3A so you're good to go. (Adding you live in Europe where at adaptor is meant to be plugged in).

The problem would be using a US adaptor in Eurpoe without a step down or vice versa with a step up to match mains voltage.

Thanks!

 

[lostinblue]

And I think the DVDO Edge is probably the most convenient for me. Anyone here have any experience with it?

For you it really isn't the most convenient, sorry.

It processes 240p well but it adds ringing in the process. You need to add scanlines to defeat it and that means you need an HDFury+SLG3000 and who knows what else to take VGA to whatever your TV accepts.

It could be worth it, but 720p plasmas are anamorphic 1024x768 and I can attest scanlines don't appear perfect on them when it comes to distance between them and the scaling algorithm, hence you'd be pretty much gambling.

TV is mighty fine, but scanlines benefit quite a bit from 1080p and or at least 1:1 reprodution capability on the TV, these TV's relying on algorithms for every resolution kinda screws that

 

[dhonk]

For you it really isn't the most convenient, sorry.

It processes 240p well but it adds ringing in the process. You need to add scanlines to defeat it and that means you need an HDFury+SLG3000 and who knows what else to take VGA to whatever your TV accepts.

It could be worth it, but 720p plasmas are anamorphic 1024x768 and I can attest scanlines don't appear perfect on them when it comes to distance between them and the scaling algorithm, hence you'd be pretty much gambling.

TV is mighty fine, but scanlines benefit quite a bit from 1080p and or at least 1:1 reprodution capability on the TV, these TV's relying on algorithms for every resolution kinda screws that

Hmm. solid point. Welp, I think I give up honestly. Been thinking about it, and I think my eyes can handle svideo.

 

[lostinblue]

Hmm. solid point. Welp, I think I give up honestly. Been thinking about it, and I think my eyes can handle svideo.

Everyone can deal with S-video... It's just not the better signal anything retro can pull bar some systems in need of modding. It's usually not that hard to mod too. So it's worth it.

The more modern the system is the more sensible to the hampered color bandwidth from S-video it'll be, I'm speaking about checkerboard patterns and the like, kinda like with Mega Drive/Genesis 1 a lot of people didn't notice jailbars until they purchased an LCD and proper cables. Even when you have RGB sometimes you can improve on it, be it through amplification or better cables, providing you didn't purchase the best there was from the get go. You'll gradually grow pickier, don't worry, something that is enough now will start to get on your nerves later on.

Perhaps even the ringing on DVDO Edge is something you won't mind now, but you will later on. Alternatively you can give up on the 240p processing and use older firmware that treats it as 480i and doesn't introduce ringing (which would be better/more secure to do with your plasma in mind). it's not perfect but both are usable.


It's also not something you want done, click your fingers and bam, it's done, seeing you have to go at it on a case by case basis. It can take years of fine tuning, so it's worth to keep investing some thought into it, just don't try to do all the steps at once because it'll only lead to frustration.


If you just want to enjoy RGB on older consoles on the cheap start cheap, buy cables for consoles that just require cables and seeing you're US based, a good enough Scart to component converter or converter+scaler (converter+scaler will be better as a standalone inclusion but it'll introduce lag, and if you buy a scaler chain later it'll be rendered useless or at the very least detrimental because it can't just convert the source via a pass-through way.

Also keep in mind SCART should support composite and S-video anyway providing you throw a 2 dollar passive adapter in (which you'll want to do anyway in order to take audio out of the scart because YUV video converters never do that).

Don't mind the destination, when you get there chances are you won't even have that TV anymore... Think of the way, RGB is useful, ways to plug it also are. Next TV you own you won't have S-Video because it's being phased out, nor VGA for your Dreamcast nor... at some point not even component support perhaps, so you'll need converters anyway... Scart to YUV can plug into virtually any processing engine and modern TV out there. So that's thinking ahead.

To plug scart to a DVDO Edge you'd need it too, or anything else really, you either convert (Composite, S-Video and RGB) signal to component or you'll need a syncstripper to vga and go from there (both work) - that's just how it is, so as soon as you pick a viable solution the less hurdles you'll find later or less starting from scratch you'll be.

Fact is that from the moment you start walking down that path, that TV, which is a very good model for the price... will somehow limit you - doesn't mean you can't experiment it just means you ought to know what to expect.

 

[Peagles]

Thanks!

Also if it makes you feel better I run my US NES on a PAL power adapter here in New Zealand absolutely fine. From what I gather it's the same as your UK adapter but with different prongs.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

That RGB site for retro consoles mentions a difference in PQ for RGB on a model 1 Saturn versus a model 2. I have a model 2 Saturn-- anyone see a benefit in going to model 1? It was hard to tell that model 1 was better based on the comparison shots on the website.

 

[lostinblue]

That RGB site for retro consoles mentions a difference in PQ for RGB on a model 1 Saturn versus a model 2. I have a model 2 Saturn-- anyone see a benefit in going to model 1? It was hard to tell that model 1 was better based on the comparison shots on the website.

That site has been called into question before though.

Truth to be told, Saturn had a lot of revisions you can't reduce it to model 1 and model 2, hence you might have a model 2 with better video than a model 1 in that sense. It just happens that some go that way.

It's not worth it I'd say.

EDIT: In reality there are 15 motherboard revisions.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

That site has been called into question before though.

Truth to be told, Saturn had a lot of revisions you can't reduce it to model 1 and model 2, hence you might have a model 2 with better video than a model 1 in that sense. It just happens that some go that way.

It's not worth it I'd say.

EDIT: In reality there are 15 motherboard revisions.

Holy lord, crazy, 15 motherboards. The Saturn was barely alive, too.

My Saturn collection has dwindled down considerably, so I haven't bothered to get a RGB cable, but I might order one for kicks just to see what kind of picture I get. As long as it doesn't look janky, I'll probably just be happy with it as is and not go on a search (which will probably be fruitless) Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate you saving me the trouble.

 

[DracoBlade]

Good luck.

Thank you so much for your extensive help! I will study the service manual and once the OEM remote I ordered arrives I will tinker with the settings. I actually ran some of the 240p suite tests and discovered my display is incredibly overscaning by 14 pixels (12%) on top, 8 pixels right, 5 pixels on bottom, as well as some slight linearity problems, this suite has been a lifesaver. I will post results and more than likely have to come back crawling for your aid in the future. Thanks again for you help!

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Went to drop off a bunch of junk at the nearby Salvation Army in preparation for a move to Atlanta in the near future and noticed that they had a pretty sizable Trinitron in the back (model KV-27FS13). I think I'll ask them if I can buy it and have them hold it for me until I'm actually leaving town.

Might want to bring the Wii and the 240p test suite to the store while I'm at it.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

So. I am supposed to pickup a Sony Trinitron KD-34XBR970 tomorrow, and a question occurred to me. If I am going to have to buy an external scaler for this HD CRT to display 240p systems, why buy the CRT in the first place? I could use the external scaler on a LCD. This is probably the last doubt that I have about getting this TV.

 

[lostinblue]

So. I am supposed to pickup a Sony Trinitron KD-34XBR970 tomorrow, and a question occurred to me. If I am going to have to buy an external scaler for this HD CRT to display 240p systems, why buy the CRT in the first place? I could use the external scaler on a LCD. This is probably the last doubt that I have about getting this TV.

True, but that CRT is legendary.

Most enthusiasts that had it only traded it in for a Pioneer Kuro and/or for a Panasonic VT60 years after it launched (if they traded it, tons of them kept it). It's a keeper, more so than nearly all LCD's out there, colors are deep and rich, it's probably the best consumer TV there is for DC, GC, PS2, Xbox1 and Wii 16:9/480p games as well as PS3 and X360. It's nothing to sneeze at providing it's in good working condition.

It also has very little lag, unlike most LCD TV's.


It's not that there aren't options, but that's a very good one regardless of not processing 240p properly just like any modern TV doesn't... But a good TV that doesn't process 240p correctly is still better while doing it than a bad TV that also doesn't - and most LCD's out there are not so good, certainly not as good as this.

Not processing it correctly and instead treating it as 480i is not something to write home about when you've been in the "I-want-to-take-the-best-out-of-my-consoles" for years now, but apart from no scanlines you might not dislike it at all, I reckon on the DVDO Edge (a scaler) some people rather prefer 480i without ringing over 240p content rather than 240p properly recognized... with ringing. So it's not like you can't live with 480i/p on 240p content if you have to, these people are enthusiasts (from the moment they have a $700 scaler machine) and they're making a decision.

240p being treated incorrectly is more evident on some games than others and even then sometimes you have to know what you're looking for. XBR970 is probably not all that bad as is, it's just that it can be coaxed into being one of the best setups one can have for 240p, it's just not on spec from the get go. The fact that is doesn't support 240p on the chassis is the thing keeping it from perfection, quite honestly.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

Thank you for your reply, lostinblue. You are a real help to me and others in this thread! I thank you and apologize again for being so helpless. I still intend to become more knowledgeable and report back here!

 

[Peltz]

That's compressed to hell and back, upscaled then downscaled too.

I wrote a bit about that tile screen here and here.

I can also tell you that one way or the other that gradient was perfectly intentional. Said tile screen is using 199 simultaneous colors. The SNES is capable of doing 256 colors so if they wanted to they could have doubled gradations in there... Easily.

They just didn't.

Although yea, Nintendo knew and expected everyone to use composhite on that.Felt compelled to do better althought it isn't a great photo:

Camera screwed me.Yeah, but that almost makes composite look good.

that's simulated without chroma noise, added flicker artifacts, dot drawl and rainbows.

In reality, composhite Sonic looks like this:

Instead of this:

That Super Metroid shot looks fantastic!

I will need to look into that horizontal smoothing though for the xrgb-mini before buying it. I agree the second picture of Sonic 2 is superior to the first (it's not even close), but the skyline in the first pic just looks so much more natural.

Also, holy pan-seared-balls, Batman! That info about the 1-chip SNES was pretty eye opening stuff. I've heard about the legendary cycle-accurate SNES emulator, but I had no idea it targeted accuracy to a degree more precise than other official versions of the hardware itself.

It feels like buying old consoles is only getting more complex these days....

 

[Friend of Sonic]

I'm gonna be getting another PS2 to check it out on my PVM. Is there a reliable set of component cables to use? I hear they're spotty for the PS2.

 

[Peltz]

I'm gonna be getting another PS2 to check it out on my PVM. Is there a reliable set of component cables to use? I hear they're spotty for the PS2.

I imported the 1st party cables from Japan and they look pretty good to my eyes. They were really hard to find though, even on Ebay.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

I imported the 1st party cables from Japan and they look pretty good to my eyes. They were really hard to find though, even on Ebay.

Component or Scart?

EDIT: The Scart cable I got for my PS1 from retro console accessories would work for my PS2. Duh. I'll give that a try

 

[balladofthewindfish]

I bought the TV. It is a heavy monstrosity, but it is some very appealing. It'll be a few days before I hook it up, and I still have mod a few of my consoles before I can get RGB out of them. And, like I said before, I'll be researching this stuff so I can contribute more and ask intelligent questions. Thanks to everyone, especially lostinblue, for all the help!

 

[Sixfortyfive]

So my move to a new city is finally happening, and I'm taking the opportunity to once and for all clear out the games in my collection that I know I'm never going to touch again and don't want to have to take with me. Hope people don't mind me peddling my wares here. I don't mean to shit up the thread or anything; I just feel like my posts in the BST thread get buried pretty fast considering how quickly that thread moves and how not everyone in there is interested in retro stuff. I'm also not going to make a habit of this; this is just a one-time thing I'm taking care of in bulk for the move and kind of need to get it over with soon.

active eBay listings
active Amazon listings

If you spot a listing that catches your eye (and hasn't been bid on yet), PM me directly here and I'll probably take down the listing and give you a better offer directly. I play the general reseller market as much as anyone else, but I'm usually willing to drop to the low end of the market value for others in the forums/communities I'm active in.

Stuff that I haven't listed yet:
Sega CD - not visible: Sewer Shark, Sherlock Holmes 2
Genesis
more Genesis
NES
Game Boy
Game Gear - not pictured: Sonic Chaos, Sonic Triple Trouble, Donald Duck Deep Duck Trouble, NBA Jam, and NBA Action

Misc items not pictured: multi-system component cables (PS1/PS2/PS3, Wii/WiiU, Xbox, Xbox 360), Game Shark for Saturn, a couple Sega Genesis controllers, combined AC adapter + car adapter for GBA/DS, NES Zapper, NES AC adapter (also works on some other consoles), NES RF modulator (also works on Genesis / Master System IIRC), beat-up N64 console (missing the RAM pack and cartridge slot cover but otherwise functional), extra Dreamcast (drive motor sounds like it's on the way out but is still functional)

Hit me up via PM if interested.

 

[DracoBlade]

After messing with the service menu on my sony tirnitron I discovered there's a reason why the edges/image was being cut off. It has what looks to be vertical bowing/pincushion issues where the image bends on the top left and right as well as lower corners making the center image distend like a bulb. Trying to fix it but it seems like its a hardware issue afterall (read something that its to due with pincushion component or something internal). still after adjusting it I can make it to where only a little less than an inch is cut off on the bottom corners rather than the top so happy medium I suppose


Also a general question I wanted to get a consensus on: When it comes to Dreamcast and after do you guys still play on your CRT's for 3d games (not talking about 2d games on those sysytems like Gunbird 2 or MVC 2 as though I would probably default back to a CRT personally) or do you guys go component on an HDTV? Thoughts?

I recently rearranged my room so I have all my systems and my CRT next to my HDTV for easy switching between displays so I'm curious if I should stick with Xbox/Ps2 being connected to the CRT via Svideo rather than my HDTV with component.

 

[Khaz]

I have a 4/3 CRT for the 8/16/32 bits generations, and a widescreen CRT for the rest. The PS2, Xbox, Gamecube/Wii are all plugged on the widescreen as these console rarely output HD signals but have a widescreen option. I know PS3, X360 and WiiU all have Scart cable so if/when I get to these they will go on that screen too. Current gen will probably never happen with me as a PC is better to play their games anyway.

I think there is no point in using 1080p LCD screens with consoles up to this current gen. Most of the successful games from the previous generation were output at a subpar resolution, 720p or even 540p! There is no point in displaying a lower resolution on a fixed-res screen, you will just have ugly upscaling added to the inherent input lag and other faults of modern screens. Until you have a console that can consistently output 1080p, and it seems even current gen can't do that, I don't see the point in using such screen. Now an HD CRT could be interesting if you can disable the console auto-upscaling.

 

[Peagles]

Just figured out how to force my Gamecube games into 240p (it's currently running via RGB into my PVM which can't do 480p) using Swiss, it's glorious!

 

[dock]

My new 2014 Bravia W8 TV has to sit in a box for another week, but I'm worried about how badly it'll render my consoles.

I'm pretty worried about how it will cope with my SD consoles, but there's no way that I can justify $300 for a XRGB Mini. Is there any suggestion for less expensive options?

Weirdly, my Samsung LE32R41 from 2005 (!) actually coped with SVHS from my Sega Saturn incredibly well! Saturn Bomberman was sharp and crisp. It also did a stellar job with my PS2 and Gamecube via component, but my PC-Engine's RGB always looked like ass with it.

 

[Khaz]

This just dawned on me: am I right in assuming a CRT displaying 480i at 100/120Hz will have as good an image as a CRT displaying 480p at 50/60Hz? Or is it some bogey logic that doesn't work in real life?

 

[Friend of Sonic]

Just figured out how to force my Gamecube games into 240p (it's currently running via RGB into my PVM which can't do 480p) using Swiss, it's glorious!

Does that work with the GBA player?

 

[Peagles]

Does that work with the GBA player?

Not currently. It goes into 240p but when the GBP loads it switches back immediately. It must work similar to a multi DOL game and load something else immediately after which undos the setting. Bugger eh? They're still trying to work it out though! So I'm gonna keep up to date with the Swiss nightly builds until they do.

 

[Bancho]

I currently have Sony 21" trinitron which I posted a while back in this thread which I picked up for £9.

I'm in the process of fitting a NESRGB board into my AV Famicom and i wanted to see what the quality would be like on the Sony in RGB, so i tried some NES games in 240p using retroarch on the Wii through an RGB cable. I was blown away by how good NES stuff looks in RGB. Really can't wait to start playing through my games now in this quality. Composhit has always bugged the hell out of me.

I currently have my eye on 2 20" PVM's but this Trini certainly gives a nice picture in RGB.

Few pics i managed to snap, its hard trying to get good pics from a CRT lol

 

[televator]

Not currently. It goes into 240p but when the GBP loads it switches back immediately. It must work similar to a multi DOL game and load something else immediately after which undos the setting. Bugger eh? They're still trying to work it out though! So I'm gonna keep up to date with the Swiss nightly builds until they do.

Yeh those nightly builds are a blessing. They made REmake playable for me in 480p. My understanding is that the goal for swiss is to make it into an all encompassing OS. Its getting there.

 

[lostinblue]

After messing with the service menu on my sony tirnitron I discovered there's a reason why the edges/image was being cut off. It has what looks to be vertical bowing/pincushion issues where the image bends on the top left and right as well as lower corners making the center image distend like a bulb. Trying to fix it but it seems like its a hardware issue afterall (read something that its to due with pincushion component or something internal). still after adjusting it I can make it to where only a little less than an inch is cut off on the bottom corners rather than the top so happy medium I suppose

Sad to hear that, if you went up and personal with those settings and couldn't fix it then I don't know if it's fixable, nothing to lose by pushing forward a little further, but yeah it's definitely sounding worse than it originally did to me.

Still, and depending on how good you can get it, all it's not lost, everything you've learned about CRT's might come in handy later on

Also a general question I wanted to get a consensus on: When it comes to Dreamcast and after do you guys still play on your CRT's for 3d games (not talking about 2d games on those sysytems like Gunbird 2 or MVC 2 as though I would probably default back to a CRT personally) or do you guys go component on an HDTV? Thoughts?

I do toggle between them.

Widely available 4:3 CRT's usually cut out at 25". 27", 29" and some very rare 34" models of the 4:3 era exist but are not common and the bigger they are the more prone to brightness issues.

Later flat ones fare a little better in the inch department... but they're 16:9 meaning yeah, you have extra real estate for 16:9... but not so for 4:3.

A 32" CRT (actually visible size being usually 29/30" because CRT measuring didn't subtract the frame) will only be able to display a 24/25" 4:3 image. (add two inches for actual marketed CRT size)

Meaning size will mostly be the same as the readily available 4:3 CRT's.


Moreover, in US throughout most production years they didn't have RGB support, sadly... I'm not too on top of later USA TV chassis, European ones sucked balls from 2000 onwards for pre-DC gaming due to "PAL-enhancements" but I know that wasn't the case for US ones, they actually possibly gotten better by introducing component on some non-HD CRT TV's, now if only they don't treat 240p being sent by component as 480i then we have the best chassis one can get on a US TV. And your TV was quite clearly pulling 240p there and not 480i judging from the photos, so yeah, having components that seems like a very good chassis.

Going back to my original point... These TV's never got to be too big for today's standards, and even if they do, they get heavier and heavier the bigger they are, hence I'm not trying to get CRT's over 20" right now and that means these are smallish TV's to play whilst being pretty close.


Due to that small size I also tend to like to be able to use plasma HDTV's for retro gaming, I prefer CRT, no question, but I like to be able to use the biggest screens I have at home. (which right now is a 65 incher)

Plus, people coming over socially won't prefer to play bomberman on my 14" CRT TV's on a corner.


Regarding quality... 480i/p can appear mostly fine and processed correctly on most HDTV's but you always notice it's SD while I don't really realize that on a CRT, that it is lacking any sort of "crispness" nor that it looks back for looking too crisp for that matter.

For that reason I tend to use PS2 and DC on a CRT, because most games aren't even 16:9 and were never meant to be run on a LCD. When they were developed those weren't all the rage. This means no AA whatsoever, bad pallete choices (too contrasty for something 3D without AA) and the like... PS2 does this worse than any other console due to the texture color limitations, they used a lot of 4-bit color textures on that console, that's 16 colors, tends to be particularly evident on LCD's due to the way they map pixels without any "pattern" going around)

That and underscan being more visible. I believe most PS2 games have 10% overscan. Even Xbox 1 recommended 7.5% overscan to developers. Wii tends to use no more than 5% because suddenly it became relevant to pull full framebuffers or the game would have black bars on LCD's. Most games also support 16:9 (and all my CRT's are 4:3 although they have 16:9 modes that further diminish the visible screen area)

Not so on DC and PS2 although by going CRT with the DC I'm losing 480p (unlike on PS2 where 90% of the games don't). In the end it's a decision like any other.

You'll eventually make your own decisions regarding that, as I'm sure you realized, there's no easy answer. It might even vary on a game by game basis.

I think 2D games are the easiest, something like Odin Sphere looks pretty good on my plasmas even without the scaler equipment. Shame it's not 16:9.

I recently rearranged my room so I have all my systems and my CRT next to my HDTV for easy switching between displays so I'm curious if I should stick with Xbox/Ps2 being connected to the CRT via Svideo rather than my HDTV with component.

I think you'll probably use the PS2 on the CRT bar some games. Perhaps the HDTV for Xbox 1 sessions.

I do recommend component cables for both, though, seeing your CRT TV also supports them. (It does, doesn't it?)