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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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I booted up Mega Man 3 on Virtual Console, and went to the same place in the Spark Man stage as the image in the OP. In terms of clarity, I think it was comparable to the two screenshots on the right. So everything's all good.

But my game looks noticeably darker than the images and, indeed, I've researched this and the darker colors seem to be a problem for all the emulation on the Virtual Console. Anyone aware of this issue and some possible fixes?
 

Khaz

Member
Do you have any helpful resources for the layman on the NESRGB? I am lost among all the technical jargon.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/

You don't really need to know how it works, it's a board that interface between the graphic chip and the rest of the console in order to extract RGB signals from it and send them to your TV. It's a somewhat complicated mod to install but Tim made very clear instructions and his board makes it a very clean mod, without having wires everywhere. Desolder the chip, solder it on the board, solder the board on the NES. Optionally drill a hole in the console to install a switch.

The real challenge was to design the board, Tim is an electronic wizard. He made the installation almost too simple for something that complex.
 
Digital Vs analogue. You can encode much more information in bits and it doesn't suffer signal degradation like analogue waves. Its why you can download an HD film while having a crystal clear conversation on skype but still have shitty audio when using a wired phone on the same line.

That makes sense but what I'm saying is why does an antenna display HD content through he coaxial jack but a blue ray player cannot, for example.

They both are digital sources, both using the same input.
 

Khaz

Member
That makes sense but what I'm saying is why does an antenna display HD content through he coaxial jack but a blue ray player cannot, for example.

They both are digital sources, both using the same input.

It could, but then you would need your blu ray player to encode all the film data so it can suit the transmission, pass it to the tv which would then decode the information and show it on the screen. when using HDMI (or RGB), the data is passed directly to the screen, without having the encoding/decoding step.

This is basically what is happening when you watch a broadcasted film: the TV people have it on disc, put it in their special blu ray player which encodes it so that your TV can receive it, decode it and show it. It's a useless step, costing power and time, when the player is sitting one metre away from the screen.

It's the difference between a computer screen and a TV. One can only receive raw data to display, the other has electronics designed to understand broadcast signals.
 

Gruso

Member
The banger has landed! For those just joining, it's a Bang & Olufsen BeoVision MX4000, picked up for a song. See this video for an introduction.

All photos in this post can be viewed in album form here

On the stand it came with, and then in place next to my 32" Samsung (after a massive spring clean!):
BWFIsfZl.jpg
uVKfeAzl.jpg

Profile & top view:

Rear panel & pristine manuals:

The above photos might give the impression that I hauled it inside, plugged my stuff in and enjoyed a night of gaming. Ha. In reality it took me two actual hours to get a picture on the screen. Being from the arse end of the earth, this is my first venture into RGB. I've had a modded N64 sitting here forever, unused. I've never even plugged a SCART cable in before. Throw into the mix two Nintendo consoles that need tough love to output a picture on powerup, cables I've never tested, and a B&O control system which is enigmatic to say the least, I was three beers in before I started to understand WTF was going on. Reading the manuals, and some forums, is essential.

Things you must know if you get a B&O:


  • The TV is useless without a remote
  • The AV button on the remote is not the button you're looking for.
  • You need to configure the AV inputs to "V-Tape" via TV menu
  • You may need to program the remote to enable switching to AV2
Once I had a glorious picture on the screen, it was time to dig into some optimisations. The best information has been compiled by futurematt and fagin, via forum posts at http://shmups.system11.org/ and their youtube videos. futurematt's Guide to the Bang & Olufsen MX series of CRT TVs is your first port of call.

More learnings:

The label on the back should say it has software version 3.3 or later. This means you'll have a later chassis, better display and full access to the functions described in futurematt's video. I have picked up an earlier version than this, with the label showing software 2.2. I can't access the service menu with the remote, and I don't seem to have the deinterlace option either. It is possible to access service mode by bridging an internal jumper, however fagin says the following:

I've personally found a quality difference in image between chassis types. With the chassis requiring the jumper to be of lesser quality (image wise) to the chassis that can have the service menu asccessed via the remote.

I may or may not venture there. But in any case I probably won't get my scanlines on this model. Live and learn! But while that is a minor letdown, I don't regret for a second the mere $30 I spent on this thing. I mean, look at it.

Onto some screenshots. While I'm more than happy with how this thing looks at playing distance, I'm not sure how well it stands up to close scrutiny. As mentioned this is my first foray into RGB, so rather than talk too much about it I'd like to throw the shots out and see what others have to say about them.

Composite:



RGB:

 

Khaz

Member
That's very cool! it looks beautiful.

Two interesting things about CRT:
- Most TV with several Scart inputs only accept RGB on the first few ones, with consoles forced to output Composite* when plugged to the last one. What input each Scart accepts is usually written on the back or in the manual. Make sure AV2 is RGB too.
- Most TV switch themselves on automatically from standby when detecting Scart input, and Off when the console is turned off again. If you are using an external audio amp, you can just store the remote away.

*Composite signal is most always output alongside RGB in scart, with the TV only taking Sync from it when it detects RGB mode. If it can't use RGB signals, Composite is here as a backup.
 

Peltz

Member
I'm not sure how much truth there is to that when most people back then still seemed to use RF, even though the consoles themselves were capable of everything up to RGB, and there were many arcade ports coming from RGB screens.

I've seen a few effects that do showcase your point, but I haven't seen to many instances and to my eye (and so many others) that clean look of RGB is superb.

Sorry to jump into this discussion so late. I just wanted to comment on this post I quoted.

I agree the clean look of RGB is superb (nobody could argue with that and not look like an ignorant ass). But I do think that some graphic artists intended for their games to be played via a lossy signal to create natural-looking gradient effects that old hardware was incapable of otherwise achieving.

For example, look at the gradient of the text in the Super Metroid logo in the following image (you may have to zoom in). I could see someone thinking that the left image provides the natural gradient that the graphic artist intended as opposed to the right image that allows you to see the individual pixels inside each letter which arguably ruins the gradient effect.

maxresdefault.jpg


Compare each of those to the official box art, and the left one actually looks closer to the box:

893488-super_metroid_box.jpg


However, I do wonder if scanlines would "fix" the gradient effect right image (not that it's really broken in the first place).
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
I agree the clean look of RGB is superb (nobody could argue with that and not look like an ignorant ass). But I do think that some graphic artists intended for their games to be played via a lossy signal to create natural-looking gradient effects that old hardware was incapable of otherwise achieving.

For example, look at the gradient of the text in the Super Metroid logo in the following image (you may have to zoom in). I could see someone thinking that the left image provides the natural gradient that the graphic artist intended as opposed to the right image that allows you to see the individual pixels inside each letter which arguably ruins the gradient effect.

Yeah, the only drawback with going with RGB (or even s-video) is that the effect of dithering effectively breaks down. But with the image looking so much better in so many other places I think it's hardly a reason to stick with composite. Getting rid of the awful dot crawl, no more jailbars, more vibrant colors, etc. So many good reasons to upgrade.
 

Ramune

Member
Sorry to jump into this discussion so late. I just wanted to comment on this post I quoted.

I agree the clean look of RGB is superb (nobody could argue with that and not look like an ignorant ass). But I do think that some graphic artists intended for their games to be played via a lossy signal to create natural-looking gradient effects that old hardware was incapable of otherwise achieving.

For example, look at the gradient of the text in the Super Metroid logo in the following image (you may have to zoom in). I could see someone thinking that the left image provides the natural gradient that the graphic artist intended as opposed to the right image that allows you to see the individual pixels inside each letter which arguably ruins the gradient effect.

maxresdefault.jpg


Compare each of those to the official box art, and the left one actually looks closer to the box:

893488-super_metroid_box.jpg


However, I do wonder if scanlines would "fix" the gradient effect right image (not that it's really broken in the first place).

Ironically, took a snapshot of the logo a few weeks ago on my PVM, after getting working RGB cables in.

https://db.tt/MjS5g443

Techniques like using video output lower than RGB was common, especially with systems like the Genesis, which used RF and Composite video to create the effects of transparancy such as the waterfalls in Sonic 1 & 2.



Congrats on the new CRT Gruso! Definitely wouldn't seem out of place in a living room compared to a P/BVM. ;)
 

elektrixx

Banned
I'd rather the NESRGB output were modern. I want to eventually mod all my Nintendo consoles, but I still want them to be self-sufficient.
 

Peltz

Member
Yeah, the only drawback with going with RGB (or even s-video) is that the effect of dithering effectively breaks down. But with the image looking so much better in so many other places I think it's hardly a reason to stick with composite. Getting rid of the awful dot crawl, no more jailbars, more vibrant colors, etc. So many good reasons to upgrade.

Ahhh, so THAT's dithering. I never understood what that word meant.
 
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/

You don't really need to know how it works, it's a board that interface between the graphic chip and the rest of the console in order to extract RGB signals from it and send them to your TV. It's a somewhat complicated mod to install but Tim made very clear instructions and his board makes it a very clean mod, without having wires everywhere. Desolder the chip, solder it on the board, solder the board on the NES. Optionally drill a hole in the console to install a switch.

The real challenge was to design the board, Tim is an electronic wizard. He made the installation almost too simple for something that complex.

Thanks for the link. I am going to have to do more research before I attempt a mod on my NES.

EDIT: btw, can anyone speak to the issue of Wii VC games being darker in color?
 
Have been testing my Trinitron for the past few days, absolutely floored guys, what have I been missing! I mean I grew up with CRT's but nothing like this! I snapped a few pics of Last Blade from my Neo Geo CD (terrible with visible scans(refresh rate related or?) on most so mind the iPhone as usual.


So any tips in regards to video settings (i.e hue, saturation, brightness, etc.) however subjective a good image may be? I maxed out the sharpness and set it to vivid with various hue tweaks and I like the image thus far, only problem is the image is visually cut off on the top and sides and seeing as there's no setting in the tv on board menu (already ordered a remote however which a "display" button should fix I'd imagine) to adjust Vertical/horizontal settings is it "overscanning" not sure what that necessarily entails but after some research that is apparently a possibility. Any insights?
 
since you have an iphone try downloading an app called "camera plus" which works a little better for screenshots on crts and avoiding those refresh rate weirdness in ur pic

as for configuring the set, try the 240p test sweet if you have a Gen/MD, Sega/Mega CD, or Dreamcast
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

personally, I'd turn down sharpness instead of turning it up, but if that's your preference then so be it
 

Timu

Member
After seeing what RGB can do I would love to do RGB gaming for the Master System, Genesis, Super Nintendo, Saturn, PS1, N64 if I can somehow get a modded one along with a NES. Though it looks to be an expensive route but worth it in the long run, because I'm never touching composite again, I rather settle for svideo over that.

Genesis, Master System and NES are the main ones that need RGB, but it's easy to do with those 2 Sega consoles so I'll definitely go with them. NES is gonna be hell, lol.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
After seeing what RGB can do I would love to do RGB gaming for the Master System, Genesis, Super Nintendo, Saturn, PS1, N64 if I can somehow get a modded one along with a NES. Though it looks to be an expensive route but worth it in the long run, because I'm never touching composite again, I rather settle for svideo over that.

Genesis, Master System and NES are the main ones that need RGB, but it's easy to do with those 2 Sega consoles so I'll definitely go with them. NES is gonna be hell, lol.

Talk to baphomet about the NESRGB. I think at this point he's done NESRGB for over half the people in this thread, lol.
 
Do you guys also notice any input lag on Wii VC games on your HDTVs?

I notice it, but if I didn't play my original consoles on my RGB CRT so often, I might not as much. There's definitely input lag from wireless controllers and flat panel TVs, but the amount depends greatly on the capabilities of the latter. Mine ranks fairly well, but I still notice it in spite of that. As far as I can tell, it doesn't render any game unplayable however.
 

Khaz

Member
Apart from the lag inherent to HDTV? As 645 said the gamepad has a one frame delay specifically on VC. If you play on a CRT with a Wii or WiiU your pretty much good.

I tried plugging my Wii on the then brand new HDTV at my parents, it was unplayable. the cursor was dragging behind the wiimote, Mega Man 9 was so painful. I quickly went back to the old CRT that was supposed to go to the bin, it went to my room instead (massive widescreen 100Hz CRT, ideal for the Wii)
 
For example, look at the gradient of the text in the Super Metroid logo in the following image (you may have to zoom in). I could see someone thinking that the left image provides the natural gradient that the graphic artist intended as opposed to the right image that allows you to see the individual pixels inside each letter which arguably ruins the gradient effect.
That's compressed to hell and back, upscaled then downscaled too.

I wrote a bit about that tile screen here and here.

I can also tell you that one way or the other that gradient was perfectly intentional. Said tile screen is using 199 simultaneous colors. The SNES is capable of doing 256 colors so if they wanted to they could have doubled gradations in there... Easily.

They just didn't.

Although yea, Nintendo knew and expected everyone to use composhite on that.
Ironically, took a snapshot of the logo a few weeks ago on my PVM, after getting working RGB cables in.

https://db.tt/MjS5g443
Felt compelled to do better althought it isn't a great photo:

rJIrck1.jpg


Camera screwed me.
Techniques like using video output lower than RGB was common, especially with systems like the Genesis, which used RF and Composite video to create the effects of transparancy such as the waterfalls in Sonic 1 & 2.

OFmviK3.png
Yeah, but that almost makes composite look good.

that's simulated without chroma noise, added flicker artifacts, dot drawl and rainbows.

In reality, composhite Sonic looks like this:

Son2AComp.jpg


Instead of this:

Son2ARGB.jpg
 
Yeah I definetly enjoy RF/composite blur for nostalgia sake sometimes but the increased color, clarity, and lack of jailbars and other errors means its how i prefer to play these systems on a CRT.

The difference wasnt that great for SNES to me, but genesis and nes were a HUGE upgrade. I can't imagine playing those without it anymore.

Maybe its just the softness and pastel style of many SNES games that I feel like s-video is pretty close to rgb.
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
Still on the hunt for a PVM. Great pick up Gruso!
 
Yeah I definetly enjoy RF/composite blur for nostalgia sake sometimes but the increased color, clarity, and lack of jailbars and other errors means its how i prefer to play these systems on a CRT.

The difference wasnt that great for SNES to me, (...)

Maybe its just the softness and pastel style of many SNES games that I feel like s-video is pretty close to rgb.
You can simulate it without the composite problems.

You just have to blend horizontally; which is the way these images that don't look so bad are doing it.

More here.


I believe XRGB-mini can be set to do just that albeit it'll be a very custom fix/configuration; like I said, it's horizontal blending.

It's a lot like this:

framemeister_dropshadows.jpg


But horizontal. I think it's called horizontal scaling, look on manual settings. (I don't have one)


Anyway, composite sucks, one might want horizontal bleeding on Mega Drive I'll agree, but never, ever... composhite.

Another alternative is using Genesis Plus on the Wii, it does simulate composite minus all the crap, just the hbleed going on (looks like that sonic image which was posted) and it can output it in 240p too, which is a godsend for CRT's. Very appealing if you must have to retain that composite behaviour/quirk.
(...) but genesis and nes were a HUGE upgrade. I can't imagine playing those without it anymore.
NES has no RGB nor S-video, so... I wouldn't say upgrade, RF and composite was all there was to it, sadly.

Thankfully we have solutions now, in order to pull proper RGB out of them.
 
Yeah I definetly enjoy RF/composite blur for nostalgia sake sometimes but the increased color, clarity, and lack of jailbars and other errors means its how i prefer to play these systems on a CRT.

The difference wasnt that great for SNES to me, but genesis and nes were a HUGE upgrade. I can't imagine playing those without it anymore.

Maybe its just the softness and pastel style of many SNES games that I feel like s-video is pretty close to rgb.

Older SNESes generally have a soft image, which might explain your experience with minimal improvement of RGB over s-video. The later 1-Chip model and SNES Jr. (after being modded for RGB) do output a sharper image. I wish there was a better comparison out there, but you can see it discussed on this website: http://www.retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html
 
Older SNESes generally have a soft image, which might explain your experience with minimal improvement of RGB over s-video. The later 1-Chip model and SNES Jr. (after being modded for RGB) do output a sharper image. I wish there was a better comparison out there, but you can see it discussed on this website: http://www.retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html

Yeah I'm using a 1chip console now. I was using a near launch model from my childhood but the ppu seems to have died and it introduces a lot of screen tearing and other strangeness in games.
 
Older SNESes generally have a soft image, which might explain your experience with minimal improvement of RGB over s-video. The later 1-Chip model and SNES Jr. (after being modded for RGB) do output a sharper image. I wish there was a better comparison out there, but you can see it discussed on this website: http://www.retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html
Not exactly true.

Launch japanese SNESes are known to be sharp as hell:

VK6RSsZ.jpg


vs modded 1chip:

1chip02.jpg


vs APU-01:

apu01.jpg


Now this one is baaaaaaaad.
 

televator

Member
wasn't someone going on about some drawback that they had earlier?

Hope there is cuz mofos be overpricing this shiz. Then again I don't want be looking for a needle in a hay stack launch SFC... although they would have the good audio.

Why cant game systems just be perfect? You gotta look for the most obscure things and then mod them and hack them and put switches and knobs on them... ahhh retro gaming perfection is getting to me hard after those monitors slipped through my fingers. Lol

Don't mind me I guess.
 
Hope there is cuz mofos be overpricing this shiz. Then again I don't want be looking for a needle in a hay stack launch SFC... although they would have the good audio.

Why cant game systems just be perfect? You gotta look for the most obscure things and then mod them and hack them and put switches and knobs on them... ahhh retro gaming perfection is getting to me hard after those monitors slipped through my fingers. Lol

Don't mind me I guess.

yeah most people have a "good enough" threshold like with any hobby but sometime you just want to chase the white rabbit, lol
 
wasn't someone going on about some drawback that they had earlier?
Some?

I'll give you guys a downlow since I think nobody has been doing that over here.

In 1995, Nintendo - in an effort to cut costs - did a major revision to their SNES. They consolidated their CPU, PPU1, and PPU2 into 1 Single Chip, known as the "1CHIP", and they also consolidated their Multi-Chip APU (audio processing unit) into 1 Single Chip.

Performance wise, things changed, and the following list will do its best to point out what those changes are (for the sake of convenience, I'm not going to list the several minor revisions prior to the 1CHIP. They are extremely minor and - other than the video encoder - show virtually no difference to the SHVC-CPU-01)

Before I begin, allow me to clear up the confusion regarding the 1CHIP SNES, and the SNES Mini (or SNES Jr.) Many people believe that these are different. But in fact, they are virtually the same (minus cosmetics). The SNES Mini uses the same guts, chips, etc as the 1CHIP SNES. The CPU/PPU is the same, the RAM is the same, the Audio Unit (APU) is the same. The PCB is smaller, the shell is redesigned, and S-Video and RGB are not hooked up, that's all.

(...)

Difference #1 - Games Performing Inaccurately - The revised SNES is, according to Byuu (author of BSNES/Higan):

Byuu said:
honestly more of a clone system. There are "drastic" changes. Not so much stuff that's going to affect most games directly, but stuff that tells you the chip is radically different on the inside. Things like the SMP Timer Glitch vanishing, different behaviors of the TEST register, some DSP subtleties, the PPU being entirely different, and mid-scanline effects are totally different which affects games like A.S.P. Air Strike Patrol where the plane's shadow is almost invisible.

I can concur. Are other games affected? Yes. How many? I don't know. But.......

DISCLAIMER: The following list of games IS NOT finished. I have not done any exhaustive testing (that would take YEARS). But so far, I've "accidentally" stumbled across the following........

-- Rudra No Hihou/Treasure of the Rudras (the top left and right edges of text/conversation boxes are slightly warped and/or glitchy)
-- Disney's Aladdin (visual glitches at the top of screen, go to stage 1 to see)
-- Demon's Crest (visual glitches at the top of the screen, go to stage 1 to see)
-- Final Fantasy Mystic Quest (visual glitches at the top of Title Screen)
-- Super Ghouls N' Ghosts (visual glitches at top of screen in stage 2 when climbing ladder(s) on boat. There may be more, haven't done much testing)
-- Game Genie (not really a game, but Version 1.0 doesn't work at all. Version 2.0 does, but only lines 1 & 5)
-- Air Strike Patrol (I didn't accidentally stumble on this one, but I did test it to verify what Byuu said, and he's right. The plane's shadow is virtually invisible)
-- Magical Pop'N (Very hard to spot and minor, but random white dots appear on screen infrequently. Reported ---> here )
-- Soul Blazer (the revised sound unit doesn't seem to function identically. In Soul Blazer, you'll notice that the opening music lags badly. Now on earlier consoles, this would occur as well, but it would be easily corrected with hitting "Reset" or the next time you turned on your console. But on the revised "S-APU" audio chip, the "Reset" trick no longer works. And on a side note, my SHVC-CPU-01 never shows any lag with the opening song. Just makes me wonder what other games are negatively effected by the revised audio unit)

UNCONFIRMED

-- Star Fox (its been reported that SuperFX games - specifically Star Fox - runs slower on the Revised SNES ---> here - I myself haven't ran any tests with Super FX games so all I'm going to do is include his post to encourage others to see if he's right. If he's wrong, I'll remove this game from the list)

Again, I have not done any extensive testing. For this to happen, I would have to literally play through the entire library of SNES games. So all I can report is what I've accidentally stumbled across, or what others have found. As of right now, I'm not sure as to "why" these issues occur or if there is a fix for them.


Difference #2 - Ghosting - UNLESS your display (and/or scaler, converter, etc) has a sufficient noise filter, then you'll notice that the output of the 1CHIP-Mini has a flaw that results in "shadow ghosting". This means that you'll see faint shadows/noise that extends to the right of objects on screen against bright blue, or bright green, or white or gray backgrounds. Its highly annoying and very noticeable on every 1CHIP-Mini that I've used.

The easiest way to spot is with Yoshi's Island. Go to Stage 1-1, and place Yoshi against the bright blue/white sky and jump around. If your display/scaler isn't filtering your signal, then you'll see shadows to the right of Yoshi (the SNES Mini that I tested has 3 shadows extending towards the right of Yoshi).

How to get reduce it? Well, if your TV set has DNR (digital noise reduction) then it will reduce it (I was able to get rid of 70% of the ghosting on both a 1CHIP-03 and a SNS-Mini that I tested on my Pioneer Plasma). XRGB units also filter and process the signal so they will reduce it as well. WARNING: Using DNR may possibly increase or add input lag as its a form of digital processing, and your mileage may vary depending on how laggy your HDTV already is. Also, the XRGB-Mini has 24ms of input lag, so be warned. (I personally use Standard Definition CRT's that don't have DNR, so I can easily see the ghosting)


Difference #3 - Reduced (?) Vertical Bar - The vertical bar tends to be less noticeable on the 1CHIP-Mini, but unfortunately, it still exists (a quick example is a 1CHIP-01 that I tested. The vertical bar on it was 2-3 times more noticeable than my original SHVC-CPU-01)

Now vertical bar visibility DOES vary among all SNES consoles. Its not visible on some, while it is on others. But so far, I've been able to see it on every single SNES console I've gotten my hands on (new or old). So the idea that it does not exist "at all" on the Revised SNES is misinformation. I will however say that the 1CHIP-03 (not 01 or 02) has the least visible Vertical Bar out of all SNES's that I've seen.

But why do some says it invisible on the Mini? Well, it COULD possibly be that the revised PCB is less noisy. But it could also be the RGB-Modding. For example, when RGB-Modding a SNES Mini, its common bypass the encoder with an amplifier, and this reduces the vertical bar visibility. But guess what? You can do the same thing with the original SNES, and achieve virtually the same results.


Difference #4 - Overdriven Whites - The 1CHIP-Mini runs on the hot side in regards to white level. You'll easily notice this right away when comparing it to the original SNES consoles, or other consoles (if just measuring white level). This actually makes some pixels stand out more than others, which can make them appear to be sharper, but it can also be very abrasive as well, depending on the game, display, etc.

While you can clearly see the difference right away, some have went through the effort of measuring the output, and found that it does indeed run on the hot side.


Difference #5 - Sharper Picture - As many have noticed, the 1CHIP-Mini is sharper than all other SNES revisions. While noone knows exactly why yet, its clear that the picture appears to be, well, clearer.

Why do the pre-1CHIP consoles have a softer picture? Well its due to Color Bleed. You might be thinking "What, even via RGB"? Well the answer is, yes. Many have noticed how the colors of pixels bleed to the right, and this is what's making the picture look softer (some call it ghosting, but its not the same thing. Ghosting is "signal reflections" and is not innate to the PPU)

While the reason for the pixel bleeding is currently unknown, its possible that the DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) is causing the distortion. It could also be the transistors after PPU2 (or a combination of the DAC and Transistors). I myself use to believe that Nintendo intentionally added mild bleeding for the purpose of blending dithered patterns, but I honestly do not know for sure (Side Note: Sega's Genesis has pretty poor Composite output, which caused massive color bleed. They took advantage of this by using tons of dithering, which would create new colors and fake transparencies. See this link for more info).

Nevertheless, the 1CHIP-Mini SNES has picture quality issues also, which are ghosting, overdriven whites, and visual glitches with "some" games. So pick your poison.
Source: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=46303

Some people here on GAF are having resolution problems on Chrono Trigger over a RGB-modded 1chip+scaler combo and Yoshi Island being somewhat broken also.

TBH, I think 1chip consoles are overated at this point. I want one, modded et all but I don't lose sleep over it and I never will. It's a completionist urge, that's all.

The real improvement going for them really is not the 1chip design, it's the BA6595F encoder who, who knows if someone already tried, might even be possible to add to an older system.

Anyway... tomorrow there may come a accessory board like NESRGB or N64 HDMI converter bypassing the original SNES encoder altogether and making wrongs right. Or some trick nobody thought about yet, like the late Mega Drive/Genesis 1 jailbar solution (LIFT PIN 50 LOLZ)

Rendering 1chip a dated solution that didn't get a lot of things right but was what existed at the time. That time being now.


I really believe that, SNES is a popular console and the 1chip is not good enough to be called the ultimate SNES, it's too much of a hack for that.


And you can RGB-Amp any SNES btw, that's one thing every decent SNES deserves.

Here's a PAL PCB revision prior to 1chip who was RGB-amped:

pal2chip.jpg


It's pretty good, all it didn't solve was the bleed to the right, solve that and who wants a 1chip anyway?
 
am wondering about an HDTV CRT so that I can have all of my gaming on one set. I have read that is discouraged, but I am wondering what you guys think. What are the possible negatives, and are they really that bad? The display I am looking at is a Sony KD-34XBR970 FD Trinitron HDTV. What do you guys think?
Throw a XRGB-3 at it and you'll have a tank combo.

Solid.
In another thread, I talked about having bought a Sony KV-27FS120 Trinitron. How do they stack up against each other?
I dunno.

Question is how does it treat 240p and you'll probably need scart to component (passthrough sans scaling) just to test that.

In the absence of it you can try using Ico on the PS2 over component, PSone retrocompatibily via component also on PS2... Or Wii with homebrew and emulators over component as most of them can be set to output in 240p.

If it has deep scanlines via said methods then it's doing 240p natively, but seeing it's a BA-6 chassis I doubt it can. Just be happy that on the positive side it's not doing double flush like they do in the PAL-lands (pulling 100 Hz instead of 50 Hz) and adding Digital Plus on top (which is a pretty destructive pass for gaming purposes)
 
Throw a XRGB-3 at it and you'll have a tank combo.

Solid.

lol, a tank combo? What do you mean? btw, what exactly is an XRGB-3 supposed to do? Is it necessary if I plan on modding my retro console to output RGB?

I dunno.

Question is how does it treat 240p and you'll probably need scart to component (passthrough sans scaling) just to test that.

In the absence of it you can try using Ico on the PS2 over component, PSone retrocompatibily via component also on PS2... Or Wii with homebrew and emulators over component as most of them can be set to output in 240p.

If it has deep scanlines via said methods then it's doing 240p natively, but seeing it's a BA-6 chassis I doubt it can. Just be happy that on the positive side it's not doing double flush like they do in the PAL-lands (pulling 100 Hz instead of 50 Hz) and adding Digital Plus on top (which is a pretty destructive pass for gaming purposes)

^Are we talking about the HD or SD CRT above, or both?

I have read that HD CRTs of the sort I have my sights on are terrible for retro games. I plan on modding (as I said above) to output RGB. Does that change things?
 
lol, a tank combo? What do you mean? btw, what exactly is an XRGB-3 supposed to do? Is it necessary if I plan on modding my retro console to output RGB?
Problem with HD CRT's is that they are not using Standard Definition chassis.

They behave a lot like a modern TV in the sense that they take 240p and make it at least 480p internally. This means they're line doubling at the very least. Probably just treating it as 480i though.

And you don't want that.
^Are we talking about the HD or SD CRT above, or both?/QUOTE]You can test both, but I have a pretty good idea how XBR970 is gonna behave (started this post by doing just that). The other one is a question mark but I expect it to behave like a lot more like a mid-range XBR970 variant than... behaving like a BE-3 or so (it's a BE-6 chassis that does 240p properly, albeit not a el-dorado or anything).
I have read that HD CRTs of the sort I have my sights on are terrible for retro games.
They aren't bad providing you add extra processing to them. The XBR970 in particular kinda deserves it.
I plan on modding (as I said above) to output RGB. Does that change things?
No, it improves every system image quality so any display will get better results... But it doesn't solve the problems we're talking about.
 
That stuff about the SNES revisions being a clone console is crazy.

I really think that some of those Yoshi island errors are due to failing PPU units.

That game pushes a lot of effects. On my original from near launch SNES it causes screen tearing and other graphics glitches. Other games don't have any problems.

Unfortunately these processors and GPUs aren't going to last forever and will start failing someday. That doesn't mean complete failure but possibly things like the ghosting and slowdown listed above.

Its also possible because the SNES is a highly custom piece of hardware that it might not last as long as something like the genesis which uses more off the shelf standard parts.
 
That stuff about the SNES revisions being a clone console is crazy.
He was quoting byuu though, I reckon he can say whatever he wants and not be called out for it. Dude did this (the one cycle-accurate SNES emulator) and of course 1chip is not the system he's trying to emulate because it doesn't behave like every other SNES out there. In fact it's pulling mistakes like the airplane shadow being missing that all emulators other than his pull.

From the moment it does that it just fell onto the accuracy of a high level emulator. Something's missing.


Probably, in his opinion the PS2 slim's with emotion engine and graphics synthetizer merged onto one chip is probably like a clone system because it screwed some PS2 games over in the process. Or how the PS2 actually lacks perfect PSone retrocompatibility because it changed some DMA behaviour quite majorly. Bad clone system is not totally misplaced there.

He's right even if the way he worded it comes across as outrageus, he was probably trying to make a point like a "normal" SNES would never do that or how they actually apparently left out minor stuff that would be normal to not reproduce via reverse engineer... but in this case should be there because they owned all the documentation for it. Anyway you have to see where he's coming from - and I do agree with him.
I really think that some of those Yoshi island errors are due to failing PPU units.
Failing 1chips you mean? No separate PPU anymore.

Perhaps, but that doesn't speak bucketloads for this revision reliability does it?
That game pushes a lot of effects. On my original from near launch SNES it causes screen tearing and other graphics glitches. Other games don't have any problems.
Most effects are being done on the SuperFX if I recall it correctly.

Regardless, the glitches might even be part of the furniture for that game, like how Super Mario Bros 3 glitches like crazy due if you go for the maximum scroll speed, it's inherent. Additional chips are always hacks to a certain extent.

But for Chrono Trigger it's not as clear cut, and two people were having issues on the same games with the same revision.
Unfortunately these processors and GPUs aren't going to last forever and will start failing someday. That doesn't mean complete failure but possibly things like the ghosting and slowdown listed above.
Nobody talked about slowdown.

And ghosting has been said to be inherent to the 1chip revision, even by dudes that praise it without question. It's there, the settings or setup they have might help too so it's not that bad for some, but it's there. (XRGB-mini or DNR being on on the TV help quite a bit)

I'm not against 1chip, I'm just saying it's not the perfect SNES just yet, and I do believe in the light of some things we achieved in the last few years that a better solution can't be far off.

And that's enabling any SNES, who's not a 1chip to have 1chip still image quality without the 1chip compatibility and ghosting problems. For that to happen someone needs to loose quite a bit of time but who would say someone would bother with HDMI on the N64. Someone will come along, I hope.
Its also possible because the SNES is a highly custom piece of hardware that it might not last as long as something like the genesis which uses more off the shelf standard parts.
I think you're grasping.

Nothing really supports that claim, proprietary just means Nintendo was stuck with one supplier for every component, and that should actually be better than being able to source anything like Sega could at some point with varying quality going on. SNES quality doesn't vary nowhere near as much as Sega consoles did. And I reckon it probably didn't take a toll on the RAM lifespan either which is usually the first thing to fail.

Even if it did, the younger the unit the less prone to biting the dust it should be.
 
I have been reading the opinions of retro gamers on these HD CRT displays... not good. I'm bummed, 'cause I thought this XBR970 would be the solution to most of my problems. I'm gonna keep asking and reading to see if there is a harmony here, but I don't see one yet.
 
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