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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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coughlanio

coughlanio

Member
I've been using an RGB scart cable on my 42" LG, and boy am I impressed, super clear pixels and amazing colour. Is there really that much of a benefit from an upscaler/xrgb? I find it hard to believe. I'll be in Japan in a couple of months, is there anywhere I'd be able to see an XRGB Mini in action?
 
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lostinblue

Banned
^ Huge difference. I've always purchased TV's with that in mind but a game oriented scaler, even a crappy one (which is the one I currently own, saved by added scanlines) can make quite a difference.

Here you go...

TV 1:1 usual scenario: (no sharpening)

KJC8wLY.png
Click to expand...


Best 1:1 possible scenario scaler: (no scanlines, just pure bad ass raw scaling)

AA75sUo.png
Click to expand...

Click on images to enlarge/see them real size.


TV scalers are not meant to make SD content properly scaled and crisp or DVD's would look even worse than they do... Hence, a pixel-art game needs another kind of scaling altogether than the used on TV's.

Difference in 480i/p can be more discussable if worth the extra money et all (depending on the TV and scaler), but 240p not only is it usually a bastard child for the TV it's also too low res to be treated with "blurry edge" tendencies like it's 480p brethren.
 
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Chibot

Member
Sorry if this has been covered, I didn't notice anything.

Is it possible to go from Dreamcast VGA to either component or HDMI without an expensive converter box? I tried going from VGA to DVI-D with an adapter and it didn't work. I no longer have a CRT or LCD with VGA support.
 
C

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
Cmerrill said:
I can pick up a "Sony Trinitron KV-36FV310" for $50, should I grab this? I heard it's one of the best CRT's for retro gaming.

I was thinking of grabbing a scart to component converter for my SNES to go component in on it, if I grab it.
Click to expand...

.
 
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lostinblue

Banned
Chibot said:
Is it possible to go from Dreamcast VGA to either component or HDMI without an expensive converter box? I tried going from VGA to DVI-D with an adapter and it didn't work. I no longer have a CRT or LCD with VGA support.
Click to expand...
No way around transcoding, sorry.

But if you can, analog to analog (VGA to component) is a more straight up conversion than analog to digital (VGA to DVI/HDMI), hence simpler/better.
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
Everybody keep their fingers crossed for me! I just entered an auction for a nonTMSS Genesis that looks to be very clean and well maintained.
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
So I just bumped the Genny bid up to 61$
I'm the winner so far but there are three days to go.

Also
There is a KV-32XBR200 sony CRT for sale near me. Is there anything about it that could possible be worth it weighing 256 pounds?
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
yes actually
the secret truth is that all CRT's effectively stopped working about the summer of '02, and in the time since then, have been powered by little gremlins inside which tirelessly work to produce images (some cultures know these gremlins as "scalers")

scientifically speaking, the heavier the TV, the more gremlins it likely houses; erego, the more it weighs, the more likely you've got some hard workers in there somewhere - i hope i've been of some help

ZealousD said:
Imagine an XRGB mini that can handle resolution changes on the fly and takes VGA. Hhnnnnnnnng
Click to expand...

VGA wouldn't do much for me, but it'd be great to have the option - personally id rather see less latency & customizable system profiles as an option, add that to your quicker res changes and i'd upgrade with a quickness
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
For real though is that one of those TVs people tell their grand kids about?
 
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lostinblue

Banned
XBR CRT sets are legendary because... look at that 1991 model that popped up.

Shit's insane. They might not always be the best chassis there is for retro gaming be it because they lack RGB (because nothing in US had it) or because eventually down the line the processing they did/do turned out to be not defeatable... Like it was in the end with XBR960 and the fact it converted everything non-480p to 480p (awesome for 480i, not so awesome for 240p)

But dammit, some of them are really impressive, XBR960 not witstanding, I actually want to import that TV to the PAL-lands someday. (cheaper than a 32" BVM and I highly suspect it's the same tube going on in there)
 
B

Bancho

Member
Well I picked this Monitor up today. Its a JVC BM-H2000PN-K. It's 20" and is quite deep in size, deeper than a PVM. The screen is a lot more curved also than a PVM. It's 750 lines.

So I won this thing for 99p! It was listed for spares and repair but the seller told me it powered on, just had no means to test it. I got it home, fired it up and it works no problem. I only have a Wii with component leads at the moment to test but i was pleasantly surprised by the PQ. The geometry is spot on with not distortion of the picture. It just needs the position and size adjusting which strangely can only be performed in RGB mode! I have a 20" PVM which has crap geometry and soft focus and this thing is pin sharp.

I'm well pleased for 99p! :) Has anyone had any experience with this monitor?

Here are some pics I took as they tell the story. The monitor has had no adjustment made geo wise as nothing can be done in component mode.


Oh and to make today an even greater day i just finished the install of my NESRGB board into my FamicomAV :) Just don't have the BNC leads to connect Scart to the monitors. Still i have a 21" Trinitron for that :)
 
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lostinblue

Banned
Bancho said:
Well I picked this Monitor up today. Its a JVC BM-H2000PN-K. It's 20" and is quite deep in size, deeper than a PVM. The screen is a lot more curved also than a PVM. It's 750 lines.
Click to expand...
I'm love to put my mitts on one of those (albeit I'd be content with a 14" JVC BM). Congrats ;)

The reason it's "way curver" is because trinitron screens are only curved sideways, not vertically. ;)
Bancho said:
Oh and to make today an even greater day i just finished the install of my NESRGB board into my FamicomAV :) Just don't have the BNC leads to connect Scart to the monitors. Still i have a 21" Trinitron for that :)
Click to expand...
Regarding NES RGB, I don't know how you did it, but I've made it my recent mission to tell everyone with a NES/Famicom about these:

-> http://www.assemblergames.com/forum...-S-Nes-Top-Loader-SNES-Style-Multi-A-V-Socket

I'm praying you didn't dremmel through to add some kind of odd connector right now.
 
C

CoachKevin

Member
Need some advice.

I found 2 - 13" Sony PVM-1351Q about 90 minutes away. Both work great, $100 for the pair.

I already have scart cables for my consoles, and I am looking for a small PVM to replace my 13" Sony CRT.

What do you think? Good deal?

 
baphomet

baphomet

Member
13'' is quite small, but that's not a bad deal if they're in excellent shape. Not a great deal, but not bad. I'd try and pay $75 for both.
 
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CoachKevin

Member
baphomet said:
13'' is quite small, but that's not a bad deal if they're in excellent shape. Not a great deal, but not bad. I'd try and pay $75 for both.
Click to expand...

lostinblue said:
PVM 1351 only has 450 TVL's (1354 has 600 TVL's)

Thanks for the advice! I'd say it's definitely not worth $100 (as I wouldn't pay $50 for one of those), I'd try $75 for both like Baphomet said.
Click to expand...

I don't mind the size, obviously a 14" would be better. So I should pass, I think the guy is locked i non that price. Just really want to grab one since the image on my 13" Sony trinitron on my office desk is collapsing.
 
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lostinblue

Banned
Khaz said:
Does it matter when you only want to display 240p?
Click to expand...
It does.

I find the ideal for 240p is 600 TVL's. It gives it that extra oomph and clarity that wouldn't otherwise have. From there and up it's not all that noticeable, mostly scanline height gets bigger.

600 TVL's is my golden standard, I notice a huge difference from 450 TVL.


EDIT: But I was mostly mentioning it to give the user some leverage.
 
V

ViperVisor

Member
Peltz said:
Sorry to jump into this discussion so late. I just wanted to comment on this post I quoted.

I agree the clean look of RGB is superb (nobody could argue with that and not look like an ignorant ass). But I do think that some graphic artists intended for their games to be played via a lossy signal to create natural-looking gradient effects that old hardware was incapable of otherwise achieving.

For example, look at the gradient of the text in the Super Metroid logo in the following image (you may have to zoom in). I could see someone thinking that the left image provides the natural gradient that the graphic artist intended as opposed to the right image that allows you to see the individual pixels inside each letter which arguably ruins the gradient effect.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/YKdvlB9miZA/maxresdefault.jpg

Compare each of those to the official box art, and the left one actually looks closer to the box:

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/14036/893488-super_metroid_box.jpg

However, I do wonder if scanlines would "fix" the gradient effect right image (not that it's really broken in the first place).
Click to expand...

I posted this before but seeing this it is good to revisit.
S-video on SD Sony TV vs. Component on HD Sony TV that will upconvert to 1080i or 720p depending on interlaced or progressive mode selected.
http://www.abload.de/img/ggggggggrdzxn.gif
 
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lostinblue

Banned
That's a big difference.

I believe I have read HD Sony TV's pull SD @ 480p (unlike most CRT HDTV's) so it's not so aggressive as 1080i or 720p.
 
V

ViperVisor

Member
lostinblue said:
That's a big difference.

I believe I have read HD Sony TV's pull SD @ 480p (unlike most CRT HDTV's) so it's not so aggressive as 1080i or 720p.
Click to expand...

You might be right.
"DRC--Digital Reality Creation MultiFunction circuitry--upconverts standard interlaced (480i) video sources to 960i or progressive-scan 480p, while inputs as high-quality as 720p (720 lines, progressively scanned) are upsampled to full 1080i. Because DRC processes video signals in real time, it creates an image with 4 times the density of the original signal."
 
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CoachKevin

Member
Sorry for the random question, but how is the PVM-14N2U at about $50?

I saw it at least has 500 TVL instead of 450 TVL like the 13" I was looking at, but maybe that is just from being a bigger screen?
 
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lostinblue

Banned
CoachKevin said:
Sorry for the random question, but how is the PVM-14N2U at about $50?

I saw it at least has 500 TVL instead of 450 TVL like the 13" I was looking at, but maybe that is just from being a bigger screen?
Click to expand...
They're both low end PVM's, but those are way more recent (so might have way less wear, the 13" ones were 1995-1997) and the 50 extra TVL's might not make a world of the difference, but it is better.

World of caution that I'm pretty sure they don't support Component, only RGB while the 13" ones did support both on the same ports. it's not huge by any means because neither could pull 480p, but it means plugging on a PS2 or a Wii will be harder to do (Wii in US doesn't support scart I think? GC's didn't) and PS2 will need a PS1 scart and they're not widely available there.

Nothing major, but has to be mentioned.
 
C

CoachKevin

Member
lostinblue said:
They're both low end PVM's, but those are way more recent (so might have way less wear, the 13" ones were 1995-1997) and the 50 extra TVL's might not make a world of the difference, but it is better.

World of caution that I'm pretty sure they don't support Component, only RGB while the 13" ones did support both on the same ports. it's not huge by any means because neither could pull 480p, but it means plugging on a PS2 or a Wii will be harder to do (Wii in US doesn't support scart I think? GC's didn't) and PS2 will need a PS1 scart and they're not widely available there.

Nothing major, but has to be mentioned.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I am all started up with my framemesiter. This will just be a second monitor for my desk to play some game. Replacing my 13" Sony trinitron that has some image collapse.
 
S

scaffa

Member
Lately I have been looking at the XRGB stuff and thinking about buying the Mini but not sure yet if it's something for me.

I have a NTSC Snes, NTSC Dreamcast (Don't play on it but maybe in the future), PAL GC and a PAL Nes. All unmodded. For me the Snes and Nes are the important systems from the lists and I just want a better picture quality on my lcd screen. Snes is quite doable with a rgb cable but the Nes output quality on the screen is not something to write home about.

Now I was wondering if something like a xrgb mini will improve the nes quality to some extent on a lcd screen? And if that is worth the price considering it's not only for the nes :)

Yesterday I searched a bit but most reviews are about modded nes units for rgb and such.
 
S

Superblatt

Member
CoachKevin said:
Thanks. I am all started up with my framemesiter. This will just be a second monitor for my desk to play some game. Replacing my 13" Sony trinitron that has some image collapse.
Click to expand...

The 14" PVM you're looking at for $90 is a pretty good deal, actually. I paid $75 for mine about a year ago and couldn't be happier. You already have scart cables, right? You will also need to get a scart to BNC adapter, which runs about $40 if I recall correctly.

I'll just say this...while I appreciate the framemeister and know the images it produces are excellent, having a real tube to play on just feels different. I liked my PVM so much that I got fully sucked into the high end gaming CRT insanity that is this board full of nut jobs like myself, and hunted down a Sony BVM 20F1U. Giant fat thick fucking scan lines that would make my 10 year old self crap my pants. I love it. Enjoy the PVM if you pick one up, but don't expect that to be the last one you buy.

Oh, and by the way, I fricken love my Back in My Play tshirt. Will be rocking it today.
 
S

scaffa

Member
televator said:
Anything less is doing it wrong. Like just pack it up and give up retro gaming.
Click to expand...

I guess and hope you are not serious with that comment?

I have no experience in modding and don't know anyone directly that does that stuff. Buying a modded unit seems a way to go but that requires importing and is probably pricey.

If I wanted a true retro gaming experience I would buy a solid crt. I'm just looking for a easy way to improve the image quality on my current setup and with the systems I play my games on.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
televator said:
Is that a consumer 4:3 HDTV? Wut. I can't believe that exists.
Click to expand...
4:3 HD CRTs were common. I had one. Made perfect sense as they were excellent for 480p (which is a 4:3 resolution).

If you want to see something weird, though, check this out:

plasma1.jpg


Fudoh talked about this over one the system11 forums. It's a 4:3 640x480 plasma display. It's an early gen model so black levels are bad and image retention was an issue but it could display pixel perfect 480p images. More importantly, it could handle 15khz 240p natively without adding any lag. It simply increased pixels by one in each direction.

I would have loved to have something like this produced with the technology they eventually developed for the Kuro. Would make an amazing retro display.
 
P

Peagles

Member
Zotty said:
I guess and hope you are not serious with that comment?

I have no experience in modding and don't know anyone directly that does that stuff. Buying a modded unit seems a way to go but that requires importing and is probably pricey.

If I wanted a true retro gaming experience I would buy a solid crt. I'm just looking for a easy way to improve the image quality on my current setup and with the systems I play my games on.
Click to expand...

It's certainly pricey to get RGB out of an NES but not overly prohibitive. If you're going to invest in an XRGB you don't exactly want to be plugging composite video into it.
 
S

Superblatt

Member
Peagles said:
It's certainly pricey to get RGB out of an NES but not overly prohibitive. If you're going to invest in an XRGB you don't exactly want to be plugging composite video into it.
Click to expand...

If you have a PVM/BVM (or similar RGB CRT) or a framemeister, and have a sizable NES collection, this is a no brainer. The picture quality on a NES that's been RGB modded has to be seen...it's that good.
 
T

televator

Member
Zotty said:
I guess and hope you are not serious with that comment?

I have no experience in modding and don't know anyone directly that does that stuff. Buying a modded unit seems a way to go but that requires importing and is probably pricey.

If I wanted a true retro gaming experience I would buy a solid crt. I'm just looking for a easy way to improve the image quality on my current setup and with the systems I play my games on.
Click to expand...

It is a jokey post but it's how it is. If you got the dough for an XRGB mini, chances are you can fund an NES RGB mod. Feeding composit to an XRGB is like putting low octane fuel in your drag car.

Since you seem more inclined to go the CRT route you can just not spend the money on an xrgb an put it towards an RGB NES and a good CRT for a damn sweet combo.
 
C

CoachKevin

Member
Wow, got real lucky today. Replyed to a month old post on Craigslist for this monitor.



From reading the thread I knew it was not the best monitor, but a good place to start. Turns out that one was sold but he had a PVM14M2U for $50!!! Made the hour drive and picked it up.

It was a little neglected, but some cleaning will do the job.



Then I fired it up...HOLY SHIT does the picture look good. Jsut on S-video!



Now I just need to figure out how to remove the NTSC label on the screen.
 
B

Bancho

Member
Congrats on the monitor. I have the same model but the 'e' version for us Europeans. I think 14" is a great size. I really enjoy playing games on mine.

To turn off the ntsc being displayed head into menu and turn "color system display" to auto. Should dissapear after a few seconds then.
 
C

CoachKevin

Member
Bancho said:
Congrats on the monitor. I have the same model but the 'e' version for us Europeans. I think 14" is a great size. I really enjoy playing games on mine.

To turn off the ntsc being displayed head into menu and turn "color system display" to auto. Should dissapear after a few seconds then.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

F*CKING crazy how good it looks with just s-video.
 
Randomizer

Randomizer

Member
What is the best method of connecting my PC to a CRT TV for emulating games @240p and 480i . I'm thinking a VGA to RGB scart converter and Soft 15khz. Was looking into an ArcadeVGA 5000 due to its ease of use but could only find one for £60. Which I wouldn't want to pay since I already have a few spare GPU's lying around.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Nice, PVM14M2U is a great monitor! I hope you get the BNC breakout cables because RGB looks sinfully good, especially Genesis, Neo Geo, Saturn, and PS1 stuff. My SNES looks kinda soft on it (but still better than S-vid), but I don't have a 1chip or modded mini, so that's probably why.
 
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