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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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I'm pretty worried about how it will cope with my SD consoles, but there's no way that I can justify $300 for a XRGB Mini. Is there any suggestion for less expensive options?
SD consoles can be separated in two different groups.

240p and 480i/p ones.

For the 240p ones it'll be hard because no modern TV processes 240p as 240p, results will vary of course, depending on how many 240p effects it's pulling, but it's nevertheless never desirable, not even for games that pan out (good old parallax)

For 480i/p you'll be fine and just dislike the pixely 3D without AA combined with a filter that's a tad too soft.


Both can be improved upon, but I can't possibly stand 240p being treated as 480i on some games, as for 480i/p on a HDTV... I can't say it sucks out of the box on most sets albeit it can get better.


Anyway for processing that the cheapest route you have is the DIY cheap scaler kit route, which is not stellar but will behave like this:


-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSQ3lmE6UuY#t=18m37s (PC Engine @ 240p, linked because you talked about said platform)
-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSQ3lmE6UuY#t=22m53s (Genesis/Mega Drive @ 240p/288p, linked because it's processing PAL signal there, something a lot of scalers can't pull)
-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSQ3lmE6UuY#t=26m14s (Wii @ 480p)

I don't recommend that chain for people in US, because it's a premium prebuilt pack costing the about same as some more expensive solutions, same retailer sells a cheaper scaler kit with the same bits but assembled by separate modules (SLG300+GBS8220+Sync Strike) but that's also expensive because they charge premium for the scaler board which can be purchased from ebay anyway. In fact they charge premium for everything there.

But you can build a scaler chain like that with:

1. GBS8220 (33 USD delivered on ebay)
2. 5V 2A Power Supply (5 USD at most, on ebay)

3a. Mini SLG (32 USD delivered in US - cheapest scanline solution)
3b. RetroVGA (50 USD delivered - scanline generator device equivalent to SLG3000)
3c. SLG3000 (65 USD delivered)

4a. Sync Strike (46 USD delivered - 103 dollars if bundled/shipped with SLG3000 which is cheaper than ordering them separate but not cheaper than just ordering a retroVGA and this)
4b. This or this. (10 USD in materials)
4c. Scart RGB to component transcoder (I won't list prices, the transcoder can't upscale and this method makes it so that the scaler geometry controls can't be accessed on the scaler)

Minimum price should be roughly 110 USD with a little bit of tinkering on the sync stripper side and with the plus that you don't have to purchase everything in the same month (spending $350 at once being my biggest problem with XRGB mini), you don't need a sync stripper for DC, PS2, GC, Xbox 1 and Gamecube if using the right cables so you can fully well go by a few months without the capability to plug scart rgb in. Or, if you needed to plug a console to a regular PC monitor without component or scart RGB you could go by a few months too without adding anything on top too. be advised though that this combo only manages to shine a bit from the moment you have scanlines and the scaler board; scaler board alone is only as good as the money it costs.

It outputs in VGA though, so most newer TV's will need yet another adapter thingy (VGA to component or VGA to HDMI transcoders, not scalers) to pull through, still cheaper than other solutions and lagging at 33 ms if done right. 33 ms is absolutely not a problem for your Sony TV set to gaming mode.

Scaler board brings a RGBS cable meant for scart (just lacking the scart), so you just need to add a sync stripper and the female scart end itself to it.


It's definitely not hard and even if it is, try on a local electronic components shop, I never requested their services but the ones where I live are open to doing services and they don't charge much.


Also note Mini SLG is the simplest SLG device that means it just does them, can't regulate scanline width, I recommend RetroVGA instead.
 
Went to Gamestop and scooped up some official PS3 component cables (for the PS2) for 14.99 and some PSP 2000 component cables for 5.99. They were surprisingly cheaper than eBay. Anyone play PSP on their PVM?
 

IrishNinja

Member
lostinblue, you seem pretty knowledgable my dude, so help me out:

i upgraded to one of the last gen panasonic plasmas, and it's great (though it's not as good on input lag, sadly) and my XRGB mini's scanlines now create a weird effect - especially on white backgrounds - during vertical scaling. lessening the thickness of said lines diminishes said effect, but it's off-putting and now kinda rare for me to even have said lines on for 3D content as a result.

one dude on SHMUPs said it's possible my tv's internal scalers are dicking with the device, but there's not much else in the settings i can do to change any of that. any suggestions?
 
Sad to hear that, if you went up and personal with those settings and couldn't fix it then I don't know if it's fixable, nothing to lose by pushing forward a little further, but yeah it's definitely sounding worse than it originally did to me.

Still, and depending on how good you can get it, all it's not lost, everything you've learned about CRT's might come in handy later on ;)I do toggle between them.

Yeah after extensive testing and playing of about 7 consoles its actually not that big of a deal and unless I'm looking out for it I quickly forget about it as I play a game. I am however going to try one last option of factory resetting the system to see if that will fix anything (doubtful but hey worth a shot right? :p)




I do recommend component cables for both, though, seeing your CRT TV also supports them. (It does, doesn't it?)

No it only supports svideo but I have an HDTV right next to it that has component and such which prompted my component vs crt svideo question.

In fact I tested Metal Slug 3 on my xbox via component then on my crt booted up my ps2 metal slug 3 and had both tvs side by side, no question svideo on crt destroyed component imo for this game at the very least (which makes sense since its a 2d game). Way too much blurry pixelation on hdtv plus ironically the crt has more vibrant colors/shadows than the lcd.
 
i upgraded to one of the last gen panasonic plasmas, and it's great (though it's not as good on input lag, sadly) and my XRGB mini's scanlines now create a weird effect - especially on white backgrounds - during vertical scaling. lessening the thickness of said lines diminishes said effect, but it's off-putting and now kinda rare for me to even have said lines on for 3D content as a result.
Hi, I have the last gen Panasonic plasma but not the XRGB-mini so I can't really test it.

I know though that there is vertical smoothing of chroma that's not defeatable on them. Not sure that's what you're experiencing because I never noticed it and I looked for it but sometimes it's the things plugged it that manage to bring stuff like this to plain sight if they ask for something the screen isn't used to doing.

Which model is it? I'm singling out the X60 because that one is not FHD (and pixel mapping is not 1:1 so it's a recipe for disaster) but knowing might help.

By vertical scaling you mean you see it in still images or only while vertical scrolling? (like on old gameboy's) Any game that's particularly bad?

If it's vertical scrolling I'd suspect the line luminance blanking system in place (you probably noticed that full black on these plasmas triggers a "alternate" scanline being lit up or switched off effect up close where some lines are turned then on)

Switch that off, by putting the setting Panel Luminance Setting in Low, then try again.

After that, try other motion resolution options, like smoothing, I forget but I believe that without smoothing TV is resolving 700 lines rather than 1080 lines (LCD's usually resolve 300/350 lines too). You'll be doing this just to see the difference as "smoothing" is not advisable due to added lag and processing. Usually more than "mid" is not even pleasurable.

Also do turn on 1080p Pixel Direct but if you have an ST60 you also have to go to HDMI Content Type and choose photo or it'll look horrible with sharpening.

This might seem silly but check if Overscan is properly detected also and toggle.

Other than that switch off Video-NR because it's a low filter pass. Sharpeness should be set to zero.
Yeah after extensive testing and playing of about 7 consoles its actually not that big of a deal and unless I'm looking out for it I quickly forget about it as I play a game. I am however going to try one last option of factory resetting the system to see if that will fix anything (doubtful but hey worth a shot right? :p)
Certainly worth a shot, one never knows and you already know how good it got to be, which is the same as saying you won't settle with worse.
No it only supports svideo but I have an HDTV right next to it that has component and such which prompted my component vs crt svideo question.
I see, I was asking because the service manual for the chassis has component.

Seems like a more expensive model/models had it, and that makes them sort of ultimate USA models if they provide quality as good as yours in 240p.
In fact I tested Metal Slug 3 on my xbox via component then on my crt booted up my ps2 metal slug 3 and had both tvs side by side, no question svideo on crt destroyed component imo for this game at the very least (which makes sense since its a 2d game). Way too much blurry pixelation on hdtv plus ironically the crt has more vibrant colors/shadows than the lcd.
Makes sense, Metal Slug IMO suffers a lot from not having scanlines.

The PS2 version is also 480i when it should be 240p or 480p, it's really bad (because said console supports both) and should diminish scanlines on the CRT... a lot of ports and conversions on PS2 sadly did that so I also don't think you were taking the best possible results out of your CRT. It can look better.

Xbox 1 also doesn't pull 240p, but it's 480p at least.
 

televator

Member
PSP "component" is pure evil.

140.jpg
 

Mercutio

Member
lostinblue, you seem pretty knowledgable my dude, so help me out:

i upgraded to one of the last gen panasonic plasmas, and it's great (though it's not as good on input lag, sadly) and my XRGB mini's scanlines now create a weird effect - especially on white backgrounds - during vertical scaling. lessening the thickness of said lines diminishes said effect, but it's off-putting and now kinda rare for me to even have said lines on for 3D content as a result.

one dude on SHMUPs said it's possible my tv's internal scalers are dicking with the device, but there's not much else in the settings i can do to change any of that. any suggestions?

I've got a Panasonic plasma, though it's one of the production models. It's either an 8 series or a 9 series. The maximum resolution is 720p though. I can plug my XRGB Mini into it later today and test it for you if you'd like?
 
720p @ 1024x768.

It won't be indicative unless he has a X60.

Apart from a VT60 I also have a X50 though, so if you're curious and test it please tell me how did it go, I don't have a XRGB device so I never did.

But I did test my cheaper scaler chain on it with pretty mixed results; the fact it has 768 vertical pixels thinking they're 720 is not doing it any favors when scanlines kick in.
 

Ramune

Member
The PSP 3000 supports both interlaced and progressive scan modes compared to the 2000's progressive only.
Im taking a few pics to show what it would look like on a PVM that maxes at 480i. Might need someone to help host the pics since my sole laptop isnt cooperating atm. :/
 

Jamix012

Member
Hey, I know there have been jokes about Xcomposite, blah blah, but I was wondering if I want to go super retro (PRE COMPOSITE), is there anything to save me? No upscalers? I've been looking at an Atari 7800.
 
The PSP 3000 supports both interlaced and progressive scan modes compared to the 2000's progressive only.
Im taking a few pics to show what it would look like on a PVM that maxes at 480i. Might need someone to help host the pics since my sole laptop isnt cooperating atm. :/
Oh, really? Damn it, I have a 2000, but I don't think I'm gonna go to the trouble of getting a 3000...
 

Yes Boss!

Member
The PSP 3000 supports both interlaced and progressive scan modes compared to the 2000's progressive only.
Im taking a few pics to show what it would look like on a PVM that maxes at 480i. Might need someone to help host the pics since my sole laptop isnt cooperating atm. :/

I'd definitely be interested in seeing the results. Never considered hooking up the PSP to a PVM. One of my PVMs in cali does component but that is 3000 miles away. I wonder what the Go outputs...that is my favorite outputting PSP because of the Dualshock 3 support. Gotta say, I've always found playing PSP on TV more trouble then it is worth, though
 

baphomet

Member
I'd definitely be interested in seeing the results. Never considered hooking up the PSP to a PVM. One of my PVMs in cali does component but that is 3000 miles away. I wonder what the Go outputs...that is my favorite outputting PSP because of the Dualshock 3 support. Gotta say, I've always found playing PSP on TV more trouble then it is worth, though

It has an option for displaying interlaced and progressive. Unfortunately it takes a bunch of work to get it to output at the correct aspect ratio. I can only do so with the xrgb mini.
 
Well, my PSP-on-a-PVM experiment failed. I tried it on my 20l5, which does 480p and I couldn't get a picture. Tested the cables afterwards on my Plasma and it of course looked like ass
 

Ramune

Member
Ok, so I took a variety of pics to show how various PSP apps would display on a interlaced PVM. Bare with me as these are the best I can do with my crappy cellphone camera, and since my laptop wont charge, Im forced to use my dinky tablet for the time being. Pics will be links for now.

XMB:

https://db.tt/LDZARI6x
https://db.tt/bEGff9pi
https://db.tt/5rj0wPIo
https://db.tt/fWFUXMqg

NES emulator:
(Highly doubtful its displaying in 240P)

https://db.tt/o6mJvSK9 - Zoom:Normal
https://db.tt/cz9WoPQd
https://db.tt/mPKVrr61 - Zoom:Full screen
https://db.tt/cXITpO6n
https://db.tt/86Fw0BJK - Zoom:Large

PS1 games:
(These display in full screen, compared to PSP native games. Its doubtful that the PSP displays them in 240P however. I took a few shots from a PS2 running the same game natively in Component and RGB to compare.)

Rockman X4 on PSP:
https://db.tt/5JIsptSC
https://db.tt/FbZi1TX5
https://db.tt/rQfROWli

Mega Man X4 on PS2 (Component)
https://db.tt/4XVF9Oeu
https://db.tt/Fgkc3rbl
https://db.tt/8lHfmWFo

Mega Man X4 on PS2 (RGB)
https://db.tt/zDCzJ1x8
https://db.tt/7s0g5CNy
https://db.tt/imWCMheC

Twinbee Portable:
Here's an interesting one. How does tate-able games look? :)
(The only thing that sucks with this is that its made for playing on a PSP only. There's no remapping options for the D-pad! So simple control is impossible!)

https://db.tt/cN458bEY
https://db.tt/cAD29e3R
https://db.tt/IGWpfQkd
https://db.tt/48Rbqyqy
https://db.tt/m2VZFI5y
https://db.tt/kUaIXqLC

God Eater 2 demo:
https://db.tt/hH6vgPrM - Overscan off
https://db.tt/xMgDdDqj - Overscan on
https://db.tt/pUGIChVs

Metal Slug XX:
https://db.tt/fU5kevk8 - Overscan off
https://db.tt/yOGxxRHF - Overscan on
https://db.tt/5BJHHBB3
https://db.tt/nYtyE4JC
https://db.tt/3eeeVKQN
 

Lettuce

Member
So I'm considering getting a brand new Tri Sync 29" arcade monitor for my retro consoles , tell me I'm crazy...right!?.

PS. I know a 15khz monitor would be better but these are even harder to find here in the UK
 

Yes Boss!

Member
So I'm considering getting a brand new Tri Sync 29" arcade monitor for my retro consoles , tell me I'm crazy...right!?.

PS. I know a 15khz monitor would be better but these are even harder to find here in the UK

Might just consider a candy at this point. In any case, getting everything to matriculate is going to take some time, and some money.
 

Timu

Member
I have a question about this device.
517NUdr5eEL.jpg


Does it convert the signal to do 480i? Because 480i is the minimum my capture device can detect as it hates anything under that(240p, 288p, etc.).
 
^ An LKV362 seems like your best bet on the cheap.

Issue is it scales it up all the way until 720p or 1080p... and in 16:9 sans vertical bars. So, if it was for direct stream purposes you'd be screwed as it already happened to someone that purchased it for that. For playing on monitors that don't have options to force 16:9 as 4:3 you'd also be screwed, well... not entirely, but would have to see it stretched to 16:9.

If it is for encode and upload then it should be easy enough.


Scart to upscaled VGA can also be done, but it won't be as simple or cheap, roughly $80. (read recent post I did in this thread about scalers, you need the scaler board and the means to plug a scart onto it (sync strike being the ready made version of it).
 

Ignignort

Member
Anyone installed a nesrgb in to a Sharp Twin Famicom in this thread?

Were you able to use the existing 7.5v provided by the machine, or did you need to wire up the voltage regulator for 5v?



EDIT: Spoke with Tim, voltage regulator is not needed for the twin, makes installation that much easier :)
 

Timu

Member
^ An LKV362 seems like your best bet on the cheap.

Issue is it scales it up all the way until 720p or 1080p... and in 16:9 sans vertical bars. So, if it was for direct stream purposes you'd be screwed as it already happened to someone that purchased it for that. For playing on monitors that don't have options to force 16:9 as 4:3 you'd also be screwed, well... not entirely, but would have to see it stretched to 16:9.

If it is for encode and upload then it should be easy enough.


Scart to upscaled VGA can also be done, but it won't be as simple or cheap, roughly $80. (read recent post I did in this thread about scalers, you need the scaler board and the means to plug a scart onto it (sync strike being the ready made version of it).
Well my capture device does let me change the aspect ratio so I'll see what I can do with that. I will get one of those types of converters soon and then a SNES rgb cable as the SNES will be the 1st system to test it on.
 

baphomet

Member
There isn't really a relevant topic to post this under, but I've been posting some of my capture shots in here so I figured I'd post this one as well. It's just a super quick shot at the beginning of the game, but I'm working on playing through another currently and capturing it.

bMPXFc3.png


It's loopys 3ds capture board, and it works great. Highly recommend it if you want/need to be able to capture 3ds stuff.
 

IrishNinja

Member
damn, you're definitely onto something there, bapho - it's rare i see 3DS screens that do the game justice, but that looks better than most
 

dock

Member
SD consoles can be separated in two different groups.

240p and 480i/p ones.

For the 240p ones it'll be hard because no modern TV processes 240p as 240p, results will vary of course, depending on how many 240p effects it's pulling, but it's nevertheless never desirable, not even for games that pan out (good old parallax)

For 480i/p you'll be fine and just dislike the pixely 3D without AA combined with a filter that's a tad too soft.

Both can be improved upon, but I can't possibly stand 240p being treated as 480i on some games, as for 480i/p on a HDTV... I can't say it sucks out of the box on most sets albeit it can get better.

Thanks so much! This explains a lot, and waylays my concerns considerably.
My PC Engine is my only non 480i console, which explains why it looks so much worse than the other consoles, despite outputting RGB.

I'm looking forward to giving the consoles a good test on the new TV, especially things like Saturn Bomberman.
 

televator

Member
s1gdmO9.png


https://twitter.com/MicomsoftX/status/487092815336185857

Oh, this is exciting. The XRGB is probably due a new product at this point, and I've read that there are still problems with the XRGB Mini. I wonder whether they'll ever try to get the cost down.

I'm interested to see. Since forcing games into widescreen 480p on the Gamecube, I find that I might want a good scaler to eliminate the black spaces in the screen. So a good 240 and 480 scaler would be a damn handy thing to have.
 
What would you guys recommend for capturing famicom video?

And this is rather noobish, but it needs to be connected to a computer as well at the same time, right?
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
What would you guys recommend for capturing famicom video?

And this is rather noobish, but it needs to be connected to a computer as well at the same time, right?
Modded or stock system?

The second question depends on the device. Some have PVR functionality and can write straight to an SD card without having a computer in the chain.
 
Modded or stock system?

The second question depends on the device. Some have PVR functionality and can write straight to an SD card without having a computer in the chain.

Just plain old composite, unmodded I suppose, though I'll have a scart/component system in the future.

I ask because my game room isn't anywhere near my computer. That straight to SD card sounds ideal.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
I wonder if they can make an all-in-one upscaler and capture device that lives up to the XRGB standards. That would be so tight.

Imagine an XRGB mini that can handle resolution changes on the fly and takes VGA. Hhnnnnnnnng
 

Borman

Member
That's actually what I'd like to end up with. Except just the console with screens on it. Did you make the background for that yourself?

Yeah I made everything. The issue with just the screens is that people had complained about the size. I found whatever increment I did (2x or 3x, I forget) on the side reduced complaints and provided a decent quality larger view.
 
s1gdmO9.png


https://twitter.com/MicomsoftX/status/487092815336185857

Oh, this is exciting. The XRGB is probably due a new product at this point, and I've read that there are still problems with the XRGB Mini. I wonder whether they'll ever try to get the cost down.
that's certainly not a new XRGB, not enough letters.

Probably a XPC-5 which would mean (for me at least) that a new XRGB was coming (because XPC-4 came out between XRGB-3 and XRGB-mini and it was like an in-between implementation, XRGB-3 didn't do 1080p scaling very well and that did, later employed on the mini).

So if this is 2014 and a XPC-4, I'd say a new XRGB might be out in 2015.

I hope it's XRGB-4/5 rather than a mini 2. (XRGB-3 is still in production too, so they could keep the XRGB-mini going in the same fashion and just replace XRGB-3)

If they pull a mini 2 I'm betting the selling point is 4K scaling rather than VGA or more ports though, sadly.
 

Cmerrill

You don't need to be empathetic towards me.
I can pick up a "Sony Trinitron KV-36FV310" for $50, should I grab this? I heard it's one of the best CRT's for retro gaming.

I was thinking of grabbing a scart to component converter for my SNES to go component in on it, if I grab it.
 
Sounds good.

Make sure the TV is not too far gone by testing it and looking at the brightness (trinitrons usually are usable with less than half the maximum brightness, go by that)

But that model sure seems killer with 4:3 and component. (I'm not as familiar with US models as I am with the european ones, but those later chassis rocked in US).
 
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