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[Funky Papa]

ROME (Reuters) - U.S. forces fired at a car carrying Italian reporter Giuliana Sgrena shortly after her liberation, wounding some of the passengers, the journalist's newspaper said on Friday.

"She was going in a car to the airport with three people from the Italian security forces. U.S. forces opened fire on the car. She is fine but there are wounded," Il Manifesto's editorial director Francesco Paterno told Reuters.

Italian news agency ANSA said Sgrena had been wounded in the shoulder and added that one of the Italian secret service agents had been killed. Another news agency, AGI, said Sgrena was being treated in a Baghdad hospital.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050304/ts_nm/iraq_dc&e=1

Freedom is on the march.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

DEMOCRACY FOR TEH WIN!!!1

 

[darscot]

Shoot first ask questions later what else is new.

 

[tedtropy]

Mission accomplished. Let's pack it up and bring it home guys...

 

[Azih]

Man but Giuliana Sgrena has a shitty life.

 

[Iceman]

She obviously played the numbers.

And totally misleading title. It was a secret service agent not a secret agent/spy.

 

[Azih]

She obviously played the numbers.

And totally misleading title. It was a secret service agent not a secret agent/spy.

Dude firstly don't display this poor ladies pain and suffering

Secondly not particularly misleading. A member of the Italian intelligence agency died as a result of these events.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

She obviously played the numbers.

And totally misleading title. It was a secret service agent not a secret agent/spy.

Now that's compassion!

 

[Funky Papa]

She obviously played the numbers.

And totally misleading title. It was a secret service agent not a secret agent/spy.

I mistakenly associated the work of the officer with the name of his department. Still, this is not really misleading, a secret service agent has been killed and a hostage wounded. Now go back to your ice cave if you don't have nothing interesting to say Mr. compassionate conservative.

 

[BooM235689]

Better safe than sorry





Amercians & Allies>all
This is not racial in any way

 

[SteveMeister]

Nope, that article's not biased at all for leaving out this little tidbit:

According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

 

[Funky Papa]

Nope, that article's not biased at all for leaving out this little tidbit:

I wouldn't call biased an instant newsflash from a press agency. It is obvious it lacks certain details (like the high speed part and all) as it is also obvious the troops didn't shot them for pleasure.

 

[Iceman]

wow.. talk about a double standard.

you guys knock your own when they're in some kind of tough situation but make light of some random person thousands of miles away in a place you've never been to and suddenly it's out of line?

 

[SteveMeister]

I wouldn't call biased an instant newsflash from a press agency. It is obvious it lacks certain details (like the high speed part and all) as it is also obvious the troops didn't shot them for pleasure.

Well, the other article makes it seem like the troops randomly shot at a speeding car. It mentions a checkpoint, but doesn't say anything about troops signalling the car to stop, nor does it say anything about the driver failing to HEED those signals. Those are pretty key omissions that change the character of what the troops did completely.

 

[xsarien]

Better safe than sorry
Amercians & Allies>all
This is not racial in any way

Nor is it intelligent.

 

[Funky Papa]

Well, the other article makes it seem like the troops randomly shot at a speeding car. It mentions a checkpoint, but doesn't say anything about troops signalling the car to stop, nor does it say anything about the driver failing to HEED those signals. Those are pretty key omissions that change the character of what the troops did completely.

That's the bad part about newsflash in general, they don't have so much data to compile so they put what they have while writing a propper article. I don't think any sane or non stupid reader thinks that US troops love to kill their allies randomly.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

That's the bad part about newsflash in general, they don't have so much data to compile so they put what they have while writing a propper article. I don't think any sane or non stupid reader thinks that US troops love to kill their allies randomly.

well that rules quite a few people out right there, what with the deluge of non-sane and stupid people lately.

 

[Jeffahn]

They obviously didn't read the instructions.

...

 

[Fresh Prince]

That's the bad part about newsflash in general, they don't have so much data to compile so they put what they have while writing a propper article. I don't think any sane or non stupid reader thinks that US troops love to kill their allies randomly.

No we all know they're just extroadinarly incompetant and gung ho.

 

[FightyF]

Well, the other article makes it seem like the troops randomly shot at a speeding car. It mentions a checkpoint, but doesn't say anything about troops signalling the car to stop, nor does it say anything about the driver failing to HEED those signals. Those are pretty key omissions that change the character of what the troops did completely.

Just a month ago troops orphaned 3 kids by shooting at their parents in the same manner...when are they going to learn?

If there ever was a mistake by Police, that took the lives of innocent people took place in the States, there would be a total change in SOP. But by the looks of it things are still the same...and innocent people will keep on dying.

In one case Iraqis die, and in another, Italians...there is a communication problem here, but something tells me it's not on the end of the innocent people.

 

[SteveMeister]

When are WHO going to learn? When are the troops going to learn not to shoot at a car that is speeding towards a checkpoint, ignoring their signals to stop, in a country where insurgents and terrorists are attacking Iraqis and coalition troops alike with things such as car bombs? Or when are drivers in war-torn Iraq going to learn to fucking slow down & be indentified at checkpoints when they're asked to?

This isn't Cleveland. It's not Paris. It's Iraq. It's an extremely dangerous place where car bombings and suicide bombers and mortar and RPG attacks are COMMONPLACE. As in they happen nearly every day. Just because the US put it into that state doesn't change the fact that that's the way it is. It was *IDIOTIC* of the driver not to stop for the checkpoint. He is (or was, if he was the one killed), either stupid, naive, or hopelessly arrogant to think that the troops were just going to let an unidentified car fly past a checkpoint in Iraq with the way things are right now.

 

[Culex]

The military did nothing wrong in this case. Any time you're at a roadside check point, and someone is barrelling at you at a high rate of speed, you shoot first, then worry about the outcome. There's no way to know if the car is packed with explosives and stopping the car is your main priority, by whatever means neccesary.

Warning shots aren't always possible either, so the Italians even got a lucky break.

At least that's how I've been trained.

 

[luxsol]

If there ever was a mistake by Police, that took the lives of innocent people took place in the States, there would be a total change in SOP. But by the looks of it things are still the same...and innocent people will keep on dying.

They couldn't change the SOP because some driver was fearful, too stupid or oblivious to stop after multiple warnings. It is a shame that this happened, but the SOP for police (and military) wouldn't change at all because of an accident like this, they gave as much warning as they possibly could without endangering their own lives.

 

[jett]

Better safe than sorry





Amercians & Allies>all
This is not racial in any way

Yeah. You're a fucking idiot.

 

[evilromero]

What do you expect? Lowest common...High School Drop...Our army...

 

[SteveMeister]

What do you expect? Lowest common...High School Drop...Our army...

You ought to read the rest of the thread before you make an uninformed comment like that. The original article left out some crucial information that totally changes the situation.

 

[evilromero]

You ought to read the rest of the thread before you make an uninformed comment like that. The original article left out some crucial information that totally changes the situation.

Lighten up. On the other hand...

The U.S. military said American soldiers tried to warn occupants of the vehicle -- flashing lights and firing warning shots -- as it sped toward a checkpoint, then fired into its engine block when it did not stop.

U.S. forces at a checkpoint shot dead the agent and wounded Sgrena in the shoulder while she was being driven to Baghdad airport after being freed and handed over to three Italian secret service officers...

I mean if we're really going to point fingers at anyone for being uninformed...

 

[SteveMeister]

I wasn't trying to be harsh -- from your post, it seemed as though you read the original post/article and responded immediately.

 

[ghostface]

But what about this:

Ms Sgrena, who was wounded in the incident, has been sent to a military hospital in Rome for an operation.

She denied US military accounts that the car was speeding past a checkpoint when it was fired upon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4321913.stm

The whole thing is rather weird. Why would the car be speeding towards an American checkpoint, and ignore all signs to stop (including warning shots)?

 

[Panajev2001a]

The military did nothing wrong in this case. Any time you're at a roadside check point, and someone is barrelling at you at a high rate of speed, you shoot first, then worry about the outcome. There's no way to know if the car is packed with explosives and stopping the car is your main priority, by whatever means neccesary.

Warning shots aren't always possible either, so the Italians even got a lucky break.

At least that's how I've been trained.

Thing is that the Italian military personell accompaying Mrs. Sgrena and the SISMI agent that was killed were not your average 20 y/o without a clue in life.

It might be new to a lot of people , but the troops Italy sent to Iraq and especially our secret service agents are a bit too well trained (they are not just taken out of military barracks after graduating a course) to do something as stupid as some of you are assuming.

They also had permission to leave from the airport and a plane was waiting for them... who controls the airport ? The U.S. military.

Someone knew the Italians were coming: it was not the personell at that road block, but if you think those guys were simply idiots trying to force an American road block in a war zone, well... keep it up the list the allies of yours will grow shorter and shorter.

 

[Ferny84]

I wonder what these checkpoints look like...

 

[videogamer]

But what about this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4321913.stm

The whole thing is rather weird. Why would the car be speeding towards an American checkpoint, and ignore all signs to stop (including warning shots)?

She also says that the driver tried to tell them that they were Italian:

When she got in the car, Calipari took off her blindfold and was "an avalanche of friendly phrases, jokes".

"Nicola Calipari was seated at my side. The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport that I knew was saturated with American troops. We were less than a kilometre they told me... when... I remember there was shooting.

"The driver began screaming that we were Italian, 'We're Italian! We're Italian!'"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4323361.stm

 

[FightyF]

When are WHO going to learn?

The US military. This is not the first or second time they've done this, and killed many innocent Iraqis.

When are the troops going to learn not to shoot at a car that is speeding towards a checkpoint, ignoring their signals to stop, in a country where insurgents and terrorists are attacking Iraqis and coalition troops alike with things such as car bombs?

Speeding? You mean driving.

What signals? This is exactly what I'm talking about. The signals include yelling in English, and firing shots in the air. What is that supposed to mean to the common Iraqi? It's failed on a NUMBER of occassion, why not try something different and more effective? I've read that they are starting to have signs in multiple languages...hey that's a start...but obviously someone is reacting in a retarded fashion if it takes them this long to figure that out.

Or when are drivers in war-torn Iraq going to learn to fucking slow down & be indentified at checkpoints when they're asked to?

When are they going to be asked to? Rather than shot at them first?

If freakin Saddam's Army were running these checkpoints, I'm sure no innocent people would get hurt. Why? Because they wouldn't be stupid about it, and they have no COMMUNICATION problems the US is having.

Secondly, the US military has been killing innocent people left and right because they are too trigger happy. Look at Fallujah, where most of the people killed were just house-sitters protecting their homes. They were totally unarmed, but gunned down as if for sport by the Marines.

This isn't Cleveland. It's not Paris. It's Iraq. It's an extremely dangerous place where car bombings and suicide bombers and mortar and RPG attacks are COMMONPLACE. As in they happen nearly every day. Just because the US put it into that state doesn't change the fact that that's the way it is.

So why doesn't the military start thinking with it's head rather than it's trigger finger?

I'll tell you why, they really don't care that much about innocent life, they've gotten away with a lot and they can get away with this. This particular case made headlines since they shot at an ally.

It was *IDIOTIC* of the driver not to stop for the checkpoint. He is (or was, if he was the one killed), either stupid, naive, or hopelessly arrogant to think that the troops were just going to let an unidentified car fly past a checkpoint in Iraq with the way things are right now.

Why was it unidentified? Secondly, why don't they have at least ONE soldier go up to the car to check it out, and then let it go up to the checkpoint? What? That's too dangerous? These people are soldiers for God's sakes...why don't they grow some balls?

*I mean the generals and strategists in general need to grow some balls, I'm sure most of the soldiers wouldn't mind volunteering for something like that.

*2nd note, I just woke up and I'm really cranky.

 

[iapetus]

Huzzah. Now we've got the soldiers on duty at the checkpoint saying one thing (and hands up everyone who honestly expected them to say "Actually, we just got spooked and started firing at the car even though now I come to think of it it wasn't actually going that fast.") and the left-wing journalist with an agenda saying another thing (and hands up everyone who honestly expected her to say "Now you mention it, we probably did look like we were trying to run the checkpoint, and I admit you would be hard pressed to hear the driver shouting from a car with the engine running over the sound of gunfire.")

Now everyone can believe the version of events that makes them happiest and we're all happy.

 

[Xenon]

I would like to know if they had warning signs leading up to the road block. If they didn't then thats pretty fucked up.

Why was it unidentified? Secondly, why don't they have at least ONE soldier go up to the car to check it out, and then let it go up to the checkpoint? What? That's too dangerous? These people are soldiers for God's sakes...why don't they grow some balls?

"hey chuck why do you got up to the car and see if it blows up"
"Sure, let me just adjust my giant nutsack first"

 

[FightyF]

Actually I'm not being too clear...I just woke up. AFAIK, The soldiers DO check the car out...and when they do that they are ALL threatened by a possible bomb attack, each time they stop a car their lives on ARE on the line.

But I'm talking about one soldier to stand in the way of the on-coming car, perhaps sticking his hand out to signal the car to stop.

I'll say it before and say it again, I see this as a communication issue...and you can't blame the soldiers on the ground, you can't hold THEM accountable for what they are being told to do. I do hold the military on the whole accountable for not fixing a problem that seems to be common.

They couldn't change the SOP because some driver was fearful, too stupid or oblivious to stop after multiple warnings. It is a shame that this happened, but the SOP for police (and military) wouldn't change at all because of an accident like this, they gave as much warning as they possibly could without endangering their own lives.

It seems like you aren't factoring in the fact that this has happened many times before to innocent Iraqis. Maybe those lives don't matter as much, and so SOP would pretty much stay the same? Again, this recent one got a lot of attention since it was American allies that were killed.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

What do you expect? Lowest common...High School Drop...Our army...

Perhaps the most ignorant statement I have heard. Our miltary spans the range of educational system just like our nation. At anyrate, I am going to wait until more facts come out. What looks like coasting inside a car can be speeding outside a car. Since I believe I am the only one on the board who has actually been through a checkpoint in Iraq I believe I am the most qualifed to speak on it.

At anyrate, checkpoints are serious business even when you are in a military vehicle. If you are moving more than 5 mph around a check point you are libble to be shot on the spot. The guards will never second guess they will do a hand signal to slow down or stop and if you don't do it to their satisfaction (remember they are the ones with the guns) then they will open fire. Is the meaning of "slow down" subjective? You bet your ass it it. Now then my question is how subjective are you going to be when it's your life hanging in the balance.

That being said there should have been cordination between the Italians and the Americans and this could have been avoided. There wasn't and because of it someone died who shouldn't have died.

 

[Lil' Dice]

That speeding excuse seems like a cop out. A highly trained secret service agent conducting operiations in Iraq would know better than to do that. And why speed? It's not like they were being chased by the kidnappers once they found out they really got paid with Monopoly money.

 

[mashoutposse]

What signals? This is exactly what I'm talking about. The signals include yelling in English, and firing shots in the air. What is that supposed to mean to the common Iraqi?

Maybe they thought they were at the Kentucky Derby? :lol

Anyway, I've been in a somewhat similar situation overseas... armed solidiers in a checkpoint-like formation and yelling in a foreign language and hand signals and waving flashlights and warning shots are all strong suggestions to stop. I don't know why you're calling this into question.

 

[FightyF]

I'm calling it into question because it repeatedly hasn't worked. If this was the first time this sort of thing occurred, I wouldn't be inclined to post on it...I'd figure that it was some sort of mix up. But having this mix up occur again and again and again is pretty disheartening.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

That speeding excuse seems like a cop out. A highly trained secret service agent conducting operiations in Iraq would know better than to do that. And why speed? It's not like they were being chased by the kidnappers once they found out they really got paid with Monopoly money.

This could be true, again to me the jury is still out. The reporters story is much to "dramatic" for my liking at the same time, the story from the miltiary is going to be boilerplate. They are going to stick to SOP it's a CYA issue everyone in the chain is on the hook. I don't think that the soliders did anything in malice I can say that much. Again I think this needs a few more days to simmer.

 

[Xenon]

tommie do they put out warning signs ahead of check points? Or do they just assume you know to slow down when you see the road block.