YianGaruga
Banned
You mean current games? Not every game is a sloppy console port you know. I'm obviously not talking about those. There are more than enough game which take advantage of a high end PC.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
You mean current games? Not every game is a sloppy console port you know. I'm obviously not talking about those. There are more than enough game which take advantage of a high end PC.
IrishNinja
Member
hence my aforementioned hopes for a workaround, even that device patent we saw prior. again what becomes of PSN purchases/digital libraries built from there? working to get people into your ecosystem only to drop them at the curb next go around seems unwise - how do you seem them getting around that?
Yes. I stated earlier (and somewhat arbitrarily I admit) that anything below 2 TFlops, in late 2013, will just be disappointing. Consider that this would be less than a 4x increase in 7 years! Yes, those FLOPs would most likely be easier to use and more efficient, but it's still far from impressive.A 1.8tflop APU, even?
I totally agree that it will suck, but I only really see 3 potential ways around it:
a) include 6 SPEs in the chip (I think this wouldn't be too hard technically, and the transistor requirement is tiny by today's standards, but the biggest challenge and why it won't happen is the manufacturer switch from IBM to AMD)
b) use some kind of (semi-automatic) per-game recompilation, but this would greatly restrict BC and probably simply fail for games that really use Cell
c) some streaming service. Expensive and a lot of latency.
Agreed. Get a Discrete with a 1 TF APU and go balls out.
Well in theory you could get pretty close to 1.8 Teraflops just by double the radeon cores in the APU. Increase the Hz and you will gain more. Sure that you really need a special GPU?
That's so close to your line in the sand...
I think it depends what we mean by acceptable though. The 'acceptable' Sony will probably care about is what's acceptable vs the competition. I'm not sure targets significantly either side of 2 Tflops are on the cards from anyone, but hey, that's just a guess...
IrishNinja
Member
damn...yeah, fair point on a) as well.
hypothetically, the device i'm recalling looked like a uh, manatee with a usb cable or the like? i could be recalling this wrong but at the time it was discussed this device could contain some legacy PS3 hardware bits and enable playback, does that strike you in any way as a feasible option?
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
That would probably create some heat dissipation problems unless they can push for a major die shrink.
That's not the case anymore.... The new consoles will be using Direct X and will utilize the x86 architecture. I wouldn't be surprised if every third party game that's multiplatform doesn't have PC as the lead platform with graphical settings optimized and locked for console play.
You can't use that logic anymore since next gens consoles aren't using weird architectures and OpenGL for graphics. You definitely will NOT see poor optimization again. I would be surprised if we start getting gorgeous next gen games that run perfectly fine on the 600 series or 7000 series graphics cards up until the of the next console life cycle.
If you notice... all the tech demos for the "next gen" utilized 1 GTX 680. You're definitely not going to see poor optimization ever again. Things have kind of changed since 2005.
Probably true. I am a mechanical engineer so electronic design is not my field.
* Would a larger heat sink be more expensive than just having a separate GPU with a fan?
* Can a larger heat sink solve the heat issue?
We want all da powa we can get
Sounds how I want my car...
I don't expect it to. The way PC hardware progressed, I don't think it's feasible anymore to create a cheap, small, low power consumption device powerful enough to wow people. When the last generation kicked off, there simply were no 1000W PCs with $400 graphic cards.
DreadPirateRoberts
Member
The PS4 isn't going to use DirectX, ever.
A larger heatsink and better airflow could probably solve the problem, but it would make the console quite a bit bigger.
And as for price, it's less the cost of the larger heatsink, and more the cost of actually making this chip I'd worry about.
I thought that DirectX was a microsoft standard, if thats the case why would Sony go with DirectX?
jetsetfluken
Member
The rumored "ultimate goal" for the hardware is 1080p60? That sounds long-term to me, which is unfortunate. Let's shoot a little higher...with 2160p60. What happened to 4k, Sony?
Or maybe the "ultimate goal" was for the goal for purposes of launch window games.
Or maybe that was exclusively talking about 3D game resolution/performance. Maybe the goal (or at least the option) for non-3D is 4k after all.
Or maybe the "ultimate goal" was for the goal for purposes of launch window games.
Or maybe that was exclusively talking about 3D game resolution/performance. Maybe the goal (or at least the option) for non-3D is 4k after all.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves lol
Yeah... right... And Sony was never going to use an x86 chip.
DirectX is a Windows API. PS4 will be OpenGL 4.x
Stop posting.
Microsoft owns DirectX. Nobody else could use it even if they wanted to. And nobody would want to use it, because it makes no sense on a console. There's no need for abstraction when you develop for a fixed platform.
According to the original post, 1080p60fps is not an "ultimate goal", its a immediate goal for launch games. Making games running in 1080p60fps3D will supposedly be "easy".
iamshadowlark
Banned
X86 is a fairly neutral instruction set architecure, DX is a proprietary API of MS. Not really the same thing.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
Man, I want all my consoles to have mad tech like Cell and all the shit the old consoles had. Having bog standard shit sucks.
So Vegeta Broly or Freeza?
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...tion-how-devs-pushed-consoles-to-their-limits
Sony will be using something very similar so that developers won't lose their minds trying to optimize multiplat games for Sony's new system. I was just too tired to look up the article and explain everything. So my bad.
That quote just means that it's using the newest shader model. DirectX and OpenGL have pretty much the same capabilities, they just go about it in different ways.
A bit of abstration is nice to have if you plan for backwards compatibility for your future hardware. Especially when it comes to GPU stuff, don't except devs to be able to code to the metal like they did with PS2, it's just not practical anymore. DX and OpenGL with the latest shaders model give more than enough flexibility.
Something similiar is not equal to DirectX. Why would Sony pay to use a Microsoft API?
7th generation "coding to the metal" discussion on B3D:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652053&postcount=4
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652058&postcount=5
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652084&postcount=7
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652103&postcount=8
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652053&postcount=4
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652058&postcount=5
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652084&postcount=7
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1652103&postcount=8
This. Both x360 and ps3 use their own API's which are configured to work ONLY with their own hardware, providing ultra fast efficiency with very little penalties in some areas. There are no loss of time for adapting your code to various hardware, no dynamic DLLs. Just small API that is tweaked to use everything from fixed console hardware.
Every consumer is different, and BC might not be an issue for some. But it is an issue for me, and the gaikai acquisition sets sony up to have the best back catalogue outside the pc.
Cutting edge graphics are not a priority, not least because it's impossible for Sony to ever match the pc. Multiplats be damned.
A small, quiet, afordable box that plays every sony systems games for a small subscription fee. A media box that can not be matched by anything on the market. Free, quality online. Excellent exclusive content. A way of controlling games that isn't a carbon copy of the ps1 controller or something Nintendo has made.
That's what i want.
Cutting edge graphics are not a priority, not least because it's impossible for Sony to ever match the pc. Multiplats be damned.
A small, quiet, afordable box that plays every sony systems games for a small subscription fee. A media box that can not be matched by anything on the market. Free, quality online. Excellent exclusive content. A way of controlling games that isn't a carbon copy of the ps1 controller or something Nintendo has made.
That's what i want.
You are totally off with this. Sony will make a hardcore console and it will be powerful.
I don't think the launch model will cater towards consumers like yourself (referring to the small,quiet and affordable points),wait till the first or second revision i guess.
What the hell does this even mean?
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
A10 based.
Well that's just shit.
We need another company to enter the console market and shake things up, Nintendo is nothing more than a toy company now, MS & Sony are too scared to release an uber powerful custom hardware console because of costs.
Apple is doing just fine thank you very much.
Step forward Samsung and do the decent thing, you now have the consumer recognition of being a quality brand, and you have the resources to launch a console that could blow away these gimped PC based turds that are coming next year.
Well that's just shit.
We need another company to enter the console market and shake things up, Nintendo is nothing more than a toy company now, MS & Sony are too scared to release an uber powerful custom hardware console because of costs.
Apple is doing just fine thank you very much.
Step forward Samsung and do the decent thing, you now have the consumer recognition of being a quality brand, and you have the resources to launch a console that could blow away these gimped PC based turds that are coming next year.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yea I think you misunderstand, all that is saying that Open GL was only recently updated for DX11 like features which is sort of standard.
Wut /?
Just like 360 dev kits where G5 Mac towers, this can change.
Its also not a "off the shelf" A10 lol
lololol
Honestly if they go with the A10 at 1 Teraflop and add a discrete GPU, we could easily hit the 3 TF number. Shit will be poppin.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
You know, in terms of CPU & GPU performance, my 2009 vintage PC will still be more powerful than an A10 based console being launched in 2013/2014.
If you want to laugh, the jokes on you.
iamshadowlark
Banned
People don't seem to understand what the notion of "based-on" means.
Schlachtor
Banned
Napalm_Frank
Member
Kinda offtopic but I am confused.
There has been a few posts here (and many more in previous threads) that say PS3 BC can be left out but PSN BC is a must. I mean what the hell does this even mean? Ain't ''PSN titles'' made by 100% same tools as PS3 games? Wouldn't PSN BC automatically mean PS3 BC? Or are people talking about minis and classics only or do they think every company will port their PSN games for PS4 and give them away for free? Or is there indeed something that makes PSN titles easier to emulate?
There has been a few posts here (and many more in previous threads) that say PS3 BC can be left out but PSN BC is a must. I mean what the hell does this even mean? Ain't ''PSN titles'' made by 100% same tools as PS3 games? Wouldn't PSN BC automatically mean PS3 BC? Or are people talking about minis and classics only or do they think every company will port their PSN games for PS4 and give them away for free? Or is there indeed something that makes PSN titles easier to emulate?
iamshadowlark
Banned
PSN games are generally modest in requirements. It would probably be alot easier to write an emulation layer and have it perform acceptably for PSN titles, than to write one for full fledged PS3 games who could use any type of black magic to get the results they get.
BC will most likely be on a case-by-case basis, if at all.
which part is lol? That you doubt a console would be able to run most games at that level, or that res is shit in the first place because hex-monitor setups running 8k are way better?
Napalm_Frank
Member
But wouldn't even the more simple games be very much optimised for PS3 hardware meaning big problems unless the emulation is very close to PS3?
Porting simple games would probably be easy but emulated as it is should still raise a ton of problems no?
Graphics Horse
Member
There is no distinction. Wipeout? Journey? And now there's hundreds of full fledged, previously Blu Ray PS3 games on PSN. When people say they want PSN support, they mean the games they bought on PSN.
It might be that some games will be emulated, or even rebuilt to work on the PS4 at launch but I dunno. Not expecting miracles... PS2 disc support would be nice!
Napalm_Frank
Member
I hope there is SKU for ps3 bc. To my understanding slapping a cell in there would make BC possible.
I dunno how hard that would be to implement and what issues it raises with heat and console size. I'm not very tech savvy.
I dunno how hard that would be to implement and what issues it raises with heat and console size. I'm not very tech savvy.