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[SolidSnakex]

At the very least, I would love it if Sony released a model of PS4 that had BC. They could charge $599 for it, and I would still be on that shit. Same for Microsoft. I do hope that if they do offer BC, that they used the hardware to smooth out any nagging issues such as low framerate. Perhaps, add emulation features like raise the AF, or maybe raise the resolution.

I'd be surprised if that happened. If they can get the console out at $400, then don't expect them to release a model that costs more than that just so that they can have a BC model available. I expect them to keep the PS3 pricing backlash in mind with the PS4. The PS3 launched with a $500 model also, but all you heard about was "FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS!". That higher tier price didn't do them any favors.

 

[Grim1ock]

I'd be surprised if that happened. If they can get the console out at $400, then don't expect them to release a model that costs more than that just so that they can have a BC model available. I expect them to keep the PS3 pricing backlash in mind with the PS4. The PS3 launched with a $500 model also, but all you heard about was "FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS!". That higher tier price didn't do them any favors.

price is all about perception.

people will buy things that are expensive if they are worth it to them.

 

[stryke]

Imagine if i told you that you need to keep your old desktop computer plugged in if you want to hear your old mp3 songs. How ridiculous is that? why do we as gamers accept that shit from anyone?

That is a very poor comparison. Computers by their very nature have been very open systems. Easily changeable and manipulable. Consoles have usually been very closed in their tech.

Sony had squandered positives from last generation with one being cutting their consumer fanbase when they threw away ps2 compatability. People did not migrate seamlessly like how it happened from ps1 to ps2.

PS2 compatibility (hardware+software emu) was available for a good reasonable amount of time after launch and that did very little to help with sales, and couple with that fact that they were already losing $200 on every sale, some measure had to be done. Being late to the party (1 year later) and a comparable but cheaper console already available on the market was the main reason for PS3's poor performance.

Telling folks that you need to hook up your ps3 to play anything from journey to uncharted is a sure way of damaging your console far more than any added costs of adding the cell into the system

I disagree, but like for you as well, I have no evidence to suggest otherwise. Couple of years down the track, people are not going to care about BC anymore. Don't forget those Full HD remakes

There are other many reasons for also having a machine that can play 4 generations of playstation games.

I can only think of two: convenience and space. Hardly "many".

No consumer would argue against having BC but from Sony's perspective, the costs are not worth it which I think is reasonable.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I'd be surprised if that happened. If they can get the console out at $400, then don't expect them to release a model that costs more than that just so that they can have a BC model available. I expect them to keep the PS3 pricing backlash in mind with the PS4. The PS3 launched with a $500 model also, but all you heard about was "FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS!". That higher tier price didn't do them any favors.

With no WiFi...

that is not even a plausible option for many, many people.

 

[thuway]

price is all about perception.

people will buy things that are expensive if they are worth it to them.

The PS3 was initially a massive disappointment. Games were graphically inferior, online was broken, and features on the Xbox that were commonplace were completely absent on the PS3. Sony really fucked it up.

If the PS4 can get its shit together in terms of tech, it can be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[thuway]

I'd be surprised if that happened. If they can get the console out at $400, then don't expect them to release a model that costs more than that just so that they can have a BC model available. I expect them to keep the PS3 pricing backlash in mind with the PS4. The PS3 launched with a $500 model also, but all you heard about was "FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS!". That higher tier price didn't do them any favors.

All I'm saying is, they can leave the option open for consumers willing to spend the extra buck. They could actually make a profit per unit if they included a super premium option. It can't be that much more expensive to just drop the PS3 chipset into the PS4.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I would think it less a component cost problem, and more an implementation and production cost problem. Splitting manufacturing between different boards would surely raise the cost per unit on both sides.

 

[tzare]

With no WiFi...

that is not even a plausible option for many, many people.

All xbox 360s until slim did not have wifi and didn't seem a problem for most. I have mine offline because of that as i have it in my bedroom to watch movies and have the router in the living.
Most people don t really care about everything that is in the box when buy.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

All xbox 360 did not have wifi and didn't seem a problem for most. I have mine offline because of that as i have it in my bedroom to watch movies and have the router in the living.
Most people don t really care about everything that is in the box when buy.

True, but an adapter was available no? So people could buy the cheaper console and pick up an adapter later, ps3 20gb did not have this option. If you went cheap when buying, you could not rectify later without buying a new console.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

At the start of a gen with high prices, I don't know how important it is to have casual games or entertainment experiences. Sony had sing star out at launch on PS3 but wouldn't that audience have balked at the price of entry? And casuals tend to come onto a platform at a later date with lower prices, so they'd have only bought a PS3/360 in the
last 2-3 years and not be in the market for a high priced next gen console for another couple of years at least.

We know nothing about pricing at this point. Casuals were quite happy to pay $300 for the aging Xbox 360 4GB platform and Kinect (by the way, entertainment services are very appealing to the part of the core audience as well, not just more causal gamers), and they're also used to paying a hefty premium for Apple's products. It all depends on a number of factors, and specific details that could help our speculation are still out of reach.

Another thing worth adding: Kinect won't necessarily remain a toy fit only for party and fitness games, and studios that have worked on Kinect games before won't necessarily remain tied exclusively to that platform forever.

 

[SolidSnakex]

price is all about perception.

people will buy things that are expensive if they are worth it to them.

I don't think $600 will ever be an acceptable price in the gaming industry. The ceiling seems to be $400, and that's even pushing it a bit. That's why the backlash was so harsh against the PS3. They need to avoid doing things that would allow the competition or press to take easy shots at them. And a $600 model would be something that would allow that.

 

[Massa]

All I'm saying is, they can leave the option open for consumers willing to spend the extra buck. They could actually make a profit per unit if they included a super premium option. It can't be that much more expensive to just drop the PS3 chipset into the PS4.

It is that much more expensive. You're not only adding expensive chips to the system but increasing the board's complexity by quite a bit.

This is a problem Sony's been trying to figure out for a while though, so hopefully they can come up with a better solution.

 

[thuway]

We know nothing about pricing at this point. Casuals were quite happy to pay $300 for the aging Xbox 360 4GB platform and Kinect (by the way, entertainment services are very appealing to the part of the core audience as well, not just more causal gamers), and they're also used to paying a hefty premium for Apple's products. It all depends on a number of factors, and specific details that could help our speculation are still out of reach.

Agreed. There is a certain "IT" factor that these consoles need to strive for. Sony has always been known for visuals, so if they fuck up on that front, it will really bite them in the ass.

It is that much more expensive. You're not only adding expensive chips to the system but increasing the board's complexity by quite a bit.

This is a problem Sony's been trying to figure out for a while though, so hopefully they can come up with a better solution.

Wasn't there an option for an adaptor?

 

[Ashes]

I'd be surprised if that happened. If they can get the console out at $400, then don't expect them to release a model that costs more than that just so that they can have a BC model available. I expect them to keep the PS3 pricing backlash in mind with the PS4. The PS3 launched with a $500 model also, but all you heard about was "FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS!". That higher tier price didn't do them any favors.

Both of those were too expensive, and if that was the criticism, you wouldn't use the lesser amount.

I reckon if you have skus at $299, $399, $499, $599 & $699, and promoted the $299 sku, people wouldn't have the same issue.

 

[RaijinFY]

At the very least, I would love it if Sony released a model of PS4 that had BC. They could charge $599 for it, and I would still be on that shit. Same for Microsoft. I do hope that if they do offer BC, that they used the hardware to smooth out any nagging issues such as low framerate. Perhaps, add emulation features like raise the AF, or maybe raise the resolution.

People should really forget the whole BC affair. Aside a couple gaffers & co. noone will care. Sony wont put a special machine for 100k at most.

 

[Goldrusher]

Including a PS3 motherboard would cost Sony less than $50 and they would be able to charge $100 more.
They would be stupid not to include it. Great selling point and additional profit.

 

[tzare]

True, but an adapter was available no? So people could buy the cheaper console and pick up an adapter later, ps3 20gb did not have this option. If you went cheap when buying, you could not rectify later without buying a new console.

You could buy an ethernet wifi adapter for a fraction of the price of the official xbox one. There are things that people just do not care when buying devices. The problem with wifi less ps3 was that wasn t almost available, for example it never launched in europe.

 

[RaijinFY]

Including a PS3 motherboard would cost Sony less than $50 and they would be able to charge $100 more.
They would be stupid not to include it. Great selling point and additional profit.

Yeah for barely what, 100K? People are seriously overestimating the importance of BC. I suspect 3rd parties would love re-selling their games at full HD res using PC assets and co instead.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Agreed. There is a certain "IT" factor that these consoles need to strive for. Sony has always been known for visuals, so if they fuck up on that front, it will really bite them in the ass.

Wasn't there an option for a PS3 BC adaptor?

Easy to do options:

1) Gaikai like option for a PS3 network connected to PS4. No cost except Software.
2) Gaikai for PS3 selected titles. On going cost by Sony and permission (from original owner) and costs associated with conversion. Network latency issues make this option good only for demos of FPS titles.
3) 2 1PPU4SPU CPU packages attached to AMD APU Xbar switch. Eliminates 2 CPU package slots lowering Jaguar CPU cores to 8 max, question as to ability to run on 28nm bulk silicon @ 3.2Ghz, IP costs from IBM for the PPUs, Software emulation costs. Wild guess is this would add less than $10 to the PS4 price.

A plugin BC adapter is not viable.

Little known fact brought up by Hiroshige articles, IBM used the Cell as a pipe-cleaner for new nodes. IBM fabbed Cell FIRST at new nodes to prove a node. They didn't do this at 32 or 28 as Sony stated to Hiroshige that they were skipping the 32nm and I assume the 28nm node as there is a linkedin cite with IBM work on Cell registers at 22nm. No work at 28nm on Cell means no BC likely in PS4 if it is at 28nm and TSVs not used to attach two 22nm 1PPU4SPU CPU packages to the APU => adds $20 to the cost for a total of $30.

A PS3 refresh at 22nm would be a total from the ground up redesign or PS4 with BC cheap enough to replace the PS3 can't be known at this point and further speculation impossible. Sony is apparently going to sell the PS3 in China so one of the above is happening.

PS4 that has BC could be binned because memory or GPU can't support a PS4 but could still be used as a PS3.

 

[Giant Panda]

Agreed. There is a certain "IT" factor that these consoles need to strive for. Sony has always been known for visuals, so if they fuck up on that front, it will really bite them in the ass.

Visuals are not an IT factor in this day and age, unless consoles suddenly reach Avatar level without breaking game budgets. So yeah that's impossible and won't happen. New control methods or innovative services will be the IT factor.

 

[Elios83]

I'd be surprised if that happened. If they can get the console out at $400, then don't expect them to release a model that costs more than that just so that they can have a BC model available. I expect them to keep the PS3 pricing backlash in mind with the PS4. The PS3 launched with a $500 model also, but all you heard about was "FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINE US DOLLARS!". That higher tier price didn't do them any favors.

There's a big difference. PS3 as intended was the 600$ model (with HDMI video output, Wi-Fi, cards reader...even the chassis ). It had all the features that Sony said the PS3 would be defined by. 20GB model was just the PS3 gimped in every possible way in a desperate attempt to make it cheaper.
It's obvious that consumers notice the trick and there's backlash.
What if they do things backwards?
The entry price model is the product as intended and then extra features are included in a more expensive model to justify the extra price.
In that case I doubt that people would complain, infact traditionally they haven't.
With Vita for example people don't consider the entry price to be the 299$ of the 3G model while the Wifi model is gimped, the Vita is the Wi-fi model and then if you want 3G as an extra you pay the extra 50$.
It's all a matter of perception and how a company spreads its message.
With PS4 it makes sense to design the product around the 400$ launch price point.
Then if they want to make a more expensive model with a bigger hard drive, a DVR and/or hardware based PS3 BC they can certainly do it. If people think that hardware based BC with a previous console (so not the console they're actually buying) is worth it, it makes sense that they recognize that value. That also doesn't exclude that non hardware BC is implemented in some form in the basic model.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

There's a big difference. PS3 as intended was the 600$ model (with HDMI video output, Wi-Fi, cards reader...even the chassis ). It had all the features that Sony said the PS3 would be defined by. 20GB model was just the PS3 gimped in every possible way in a desperate attempt to make it cheaper.

Not to mention that the 20 GB model had much lower allocations in the US at first, compared to the 60 GB model, and then it got completely discontinued less than six months after the launch.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Yeah for barely what, 100K? People are seriously overestimating the importance of BC. I suspect 3rd parties would love re-selling their games at full HD res using PC assets and co instead.

General population couldn't care less about BC. Hell I never used it once on PS3, and only used it for one game on my PS2. When my friends buy a PS4 they will be talking about the graphics of their new games and I can guarantee not a single one will care about putting their old games into their new system.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Not to mention that the 20 GB model had much lower allocations in the US at first, compared to the 60 GB model, and then it got completely discontinued less than six months after the launch.

I feel special for having the 20 gig model. It's pretty much the only phat PS3 without the silver strip over the disc drive!

And of course I upgraded my harddrive. But no wifi is pretty lame :/

 

[Ashes]

I wonder how much the dev kit costs Sony to make. It won't give us a ball park performance figure, or anything, but I'm just curious about the price.

 

[i-Lo]

I wonder how much the dev kit costs Sony to make. It won't give us a ball park performance figure, or anything, but I'm just curious about the price.

Looking at the sale price for current gen's dev kits may give you an idea.

 

[RaijinFY]

General population couldn't care less about BC. Hell I never used it once on PS3, and only used it for one game on my PS2. When my friends buy a PS4 they will be talking about the graphics of their new games and I can guarantee not a single one will care about putting their old games into their new system.

Yup pretty much.

 

[Ashes]

Looking at the sale price for current gen's dev kits may give you an idea.

It never cost Sony $10,000 to make a ps3 dev kit. ;p

 

[Death Dealer]

People should really forget the whole BC affair. Aside a couple gaffers & co. noone will care. Sony wont put a special machine for 100k at most.

Talk of premium SKUs with BC seems like a pipe dream to me.

 

[RoboPlato]

What we heard so far is basically this:
ND- U3 team doing nothing for a year- probably PS4 development started
SP- they had a new IP that they were working on one year ago (when I2 shipped) but no idea what system it's on. Anyway they have 1 year and half of silence
GG- They are making another Killzone title, we're not sure for which console, and one new IP, presumably an RPG. They've been silent for 1 year and 10 months
Evolution- silent for a year and a half. Motostrom for Vita was made only by a very small team. Some say they took over Wipeout and integrated some people from Liverpool in there.
Sony London- busy with Wonderbook and one can imagine they are working on taking Home out of beta for PS4
Sony Cambridge- working on Killzone Mercenary as part of GG
Media Molecule- working on Tearaway, have a second team doing a new project. The studio has been quiet for a year and 10 months.
Sony San Diego- MLB The Show every year and they are apparently working on Warrior's Lair for Vita
Sony Bend- Working on Vita
Sony Santa Monica- Stig has a team working on a new IP, Pappy's team is working on GoW:A, incubator for many small studios, the team behind the Unfinished Swan are to release 2 more Sony exclusive games still.
Ready at Dawn- working on a new IP for next-generation, rumored to be a Sony exclusive
Studio Japan- They have Rain and Pupeteer coming out. Rumor has it that Gravity Rush sequel for the Vita is in works. They are helping with Soul Sacrifice. They are making TLG (lol).
Polyphony Digital- technically part of Studio Japan but they have been quite since the release of GT5, though they did improve the game through patches and DLC. They are working on GT6, safe bet is that it's a ps4 title.
Quantic Dream- working on Beyond, still have a contract to do one more Sony exclusive game.
United Front Games and Sony seem to also have a good relationship, but their games on ps3 have tanked recently so I'd say they might stick with SE and work on the Sleeping Dogs.

So definetely PS4 development is well underway in most of these studios and we'll see some high quality titles for launch, no doubt. The one worrying thing is that only 4 studios seem to doing any work for the Vita.

Whenever I think back on it it really seems like Sony is prepared to have an absolutely stacked first year of exclusives. If they launch in 2013 they could have a new IP for launch, something big in March (KZ4?), a few smaller games in the months following, then Uncharted 4 in fall alongside a price drop.

 

[Biggzy]

Whenever I think back on it it really seems like Sony is prepared to have an absolutely stacked first year of exclusives. If they launch in 2013 they could have a new IP for launch, something big in March (KZ4?), a few smaller games in the months following, then Uncharted 4 in fall alongside a price drop.

It won't be hard to top the launch for the PS3 that is for sure.

 

[RoboPlato]

It won't be hard to top the launch for the PS3 that is for sure.

LOL yep

I think they learned a lot of lessons from the abysmal first year of the PS3.

 

[Biggzy]

LOL yep

I think they learned a lot of lessons from the abysmal first year of the PS3.

Also, it didn't help that when things started to pick up in 2007 the 360 arguably had it's best year in terms of exclusives.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

LOL yep

I think they learned a lot of lessons from the abysmal first year of the PS3.

I'm not sure what lessons there are to be learned from PS3's "abysmal" first year when it comes to first party software, except to aim for quality over quantity, and even then you can never be sure how good the game is going to do until it's launched. In PS3's first year Sony released a bunch of games, many of them new IPs (Resistance, Folklore, MotorStorm, Heavenly Sword, The Eye of Judgment, Lair, Uncharted and even Warhawk, which doesn't share much with the PS1 game of the same title), most of which were decent at worst. They just weren't system sellers, and a $599 box that didn't seem to offer much over its significantly cheaper competitor desperately needed one.

 

[Type_Raver]

People should really forget the whole BC affair. Aside a couple gaffers & co. noone will care. Sony wont put a special machine for 100k at most.

Agreed, focus those resources looking forward, not back.

 

[RoboPlato]

I'm not sure what lessons there are to be learned from PS3's "abysmal" first year when it comes to first party software, except to aim for quality over quantity, and even then you can never be sure how good the game is going to do until it's launched. In PS3's first year Sony released a bunch of games, many of them new IPs (Resistance, Folklore, MotorStorm, Heavenly Sword, The Eye of Judgment, Lair, Uncharted and even Warhawk, which doesn't share much with the PS1 game of the same title), most of which were decent at worst. They just weren't system sellers, and a $599 box that didn't seem to offer much over its significantly cheaper competitor desperately needed one.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to everything (price, hardware design, marketing included) and not just software. I also wasn't counting Uncharted as a first year game and of the games you listed I only liked Resistance and Warhawk.

 

[SniperHunter]

in this day and age BC is necessary...if I buy a game from Steam I expect it to work on a new computer. Sony really blew it with PS3...now the entire PSN library will be gone and you will have to start all over...this is just unacceptable.

 

[RoboPlato]

in this day and age BC is necessary...if I buy a game from Steam I expect it to work on a new computer. Sony really blew it with PS3...now the entire PSN library will be gone and you will have to start all over...this is just unacceptable.

The PSN games are where BC gets to be a sticking point. I have no issue if I need to plug in my PS3 to play disc games but downloadable titles are ones that I really think need to be able to carry over. Still, I know it's almost impossible for BC to be in.

 

[enzo_gt]

in this day and age BC is necessary...if I buy a game from Steam I expect it to work on a new computer. Sony really blew it with PS3...now the entire PSN library will be gone and you will have to start all over...this is just unacceptable.

PC is a unique case and not comparable to that of a console.

 

[KAL2006]

So what do you suggest Sony do. Stick to the cell. Or add PS3 hardware in PS4 making PS4 an extra £100 more expensive and bigger.

 

[Vol5]

Single Cell + RSX die

Believe.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

At the very least, I would love it if Sony released a model of PS4 that had BC. They could charge $599 for it, and I would still be on that shit. Same for Microsoft. I do hope that if they do offer BC, that they used the hardware to smooth out any nagging issues such as low framerate. Perhaps, add emulation features like raise the AF, or maybe raise the resolution.

Or better yet, have a port on the PS4 that can accept a piece of hardware that houses the CELL in it for full backwards compatability. Sell it for $50 or whatever. Don't even bother splitting up the SKUs.

Didn't Sony patent something like that? If they can't afford to put BC in the PS4 as standard or through emulation, this is the next best option.

 

[Vol5]

Or better yet, have a port on the PS4 that can accept a piece of hardware that houses the CELL in it for full backwards compatability. Sell it for $50 or whatever. Don't even bother splitting up the SKUs.

Didn't Sony patent something like that? If they can't afford to put BC in the PS4 as standard or through emulation, this is the next best option.

Actually, yes. Forgot about that.

 

[RoboPlato]

Or better yet, have a port on the PS4 that can accept a piece of hardware that houses the CELL in it for full backwards compatability. Sell it for $50 or whatever. Don't even bother splitting up the SKUs.

Didn't Sony patent something like that? If they can't afford to put BC in the PS4 as standard or through emulation, this is the next best option.

I would love something like this. They could sell it for almost pure profit too.

 

[Rolf NB]

The PSN games are where BC gets to be a sticking point. I have no issue if I need to plug in my PS3 to play disc games but downloadable titles are ones that I really think need to be able to carry over. Still, I know it's almost impossible for BC to be in.

There is only one technically feasible way to build a machine that can run all PSN games but cannot run disc games: not including a disc drive. And I hope we all agree that this isn't going to happen.

If you say goodbye to PS3 disc BC, you also say goodbye to PSN bc. There is no difference in the execution model. PSN games can use all the same system and processing resources as disc games. If you can emulate one, you can emulate the other.

 

[BradleyLove]

I don't get why folks are more precious over cheap PSN title BC than full price disc based titles?

If your £40 BD games don't work whatever, but dammit to hell if the £10 PSN titles don't work?

Curious.

 

[hodgy100]

I don't get why folks are more precious over cheap PSN title BC than full price disc based titles?

If your £40 BD games don't work whatever, but dammit to hell if the £10 PSN titles don't work?

Curious.

Because you don't physically have the digital games they become worthless to you if you sell your current console and your new one can't play them. Atleast with disc games you can sell them on with your console and make some money back on them.

 

[onQ123]

I was expecting a real leak before Christmas for some reason.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I was expecting a real leak before Christmas for some reason.

Probably not until the near final PS4 dev kits ship in January

I expect we'll hear something about both systems by May.

These next few months are going to be painful...

 

[i-Lo]

Probably not until the near final PS4 dev kits ship in January

I expect we'll hear something about both systems by May.

These next few months are going to be painful...

You've got the right idea. That's why I'm not expecting something significant before GDC pertaining dissemination of information by official sources. But there should be leaks before then.

I am interested in the migration of PSN profiles on to PS4 and how PSN+ members with their privileges would be affected.