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DF Weekly: If Xbox Series X is more powerful, why do some PS5 games run better? We finally have some answers.
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
- Start date
- Hardware
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Yep. It is a considerable advantage for sure, especially between hardware in the same console generation. Obviously having things like dynamic resolution and TAA/reconstruction is going to make it less noticeable, especially when games aren't pushing more compute heavy effects and visuals and just having parity between the two platforms for the most part. That's the issue, games need to utilize it in a way which is easily observable.. and that's kind of the point.. they haven't been.
Let's just ask them a simple question. Is the PS5 Pro going to be a considerable leap over the PS5, given that it's going to mostly amount to a resolution increase? I mean people also expect visuals and effects to improve... such as ray tracing effects and more assets, further view distances, LODs ect ect.. So there's lots more they could do with that compute instead of just making res higher.
It's too little too late for MS now anyway. Any compute advantage they would have had is gone with the PS5 Pro easily surpassing it. And if you're looking at "20% compute not being considerably more powerful" then you could say that the PS5 Pro isn't considerably more powerful than the Series X
I sure hope the PS5 Pro will allow for higher resolutions and better effects at the same time...will be interesting to see how devs choose to utilize its improvements. Id be happy with games just having better IQ and improved RT with the Pro personally. Like Alan Wake 2- fix that god damn image quality and Cyberpunk- raise the resolution a little and give us a fuller suite of RT. That kind of thing would be nice. I should probably keep expectations in check though because newer games will all have higher demands than those two.
Dorfdad
Gold Member
It’s become obvious that developers are not going to take the time to dive super deep and pull every ounch of power from systems anymore. They all rely on quick and commercial engines and developer tools for the most part. They don’t want to take years to develop engines training and resources. So whichever manufacturer makes the better tools they are going to usually have the better game.
SKYF@ll
Member
Please give me an example of how the AF on the XSX version of Doom Eternal is better. It's different from my understanding.
I've played Doom Eternal on both PS5 and XSX, and the PS5 version looks better.
* All images are in RT mode (1800p/60fps).
Unknown Soldier
Member
I mean Unreal Engine is completely platform agnostic and available on everything platform known to Man and somehow there are still PS5 games which use UE that run better than Xbox games. I don't think the middleware engines are to blame for any of this
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
Hmmm I guess my comment does come off too flippant. I can delete it. Choosing to play on PC really dosn't concern this thread.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
It's too little too late for MS now anyway. Any compute advantage they would have had is gone with the PS5 Pro easily surpassing it. And if you're looking at "20% compute not being considerably more powerful" then you could say that the PS5 Pro isn't considerably more powerful than the Series X
17TF vs 12TF = ~40% theoretical compute advantage NOT taking into account dual issue compute capabilities, far better RT hardware, ML hardware, faster memory....
Don't you think it's time for you to take a break from this thread, all things considered?
mansoor1980
Member
UltimaKilo
Gold Member
The ironic thing is that Microsoft might finally have caught up with the 1st party software (for now), but it could be too little, too late.
I’m just curious if there’s anything they can realistically do, that wouldn’t be a monumental lift, to increase performance on current gen consoles.
If the API is so bad, why haven’t they prioritized improving it? It’s not as if they don’t have the resources.
Self_Destructive
Member
Do you know how much theoretical compute advantage a 4090 has over a PS5... and yet that doesn't stop console people from saying the games "look basically the same".... and in most cases they do... because they aren't designed to take advantage of the hardware... which has been my entire point.
17TF vs 12TF = ~40% theoretical compute advantage NOT taking into account dual issue compute capabilities, far better RT hardware, ML hardware, faster memory....
Don't you think it's time for you to take a break from this thread, all things considered?
Congrats on walking right into that. Perhaps you're the one who should take a break from this thread all things considered
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Do you know how much theoretical compute advantage a 4090 has over a PS5... and yet that doesn't stop console people from saying the games "look basically the same".... and in most cases they do... because they aren't designed to take advantage of the hardware... which has been my entire point.
Congrats on walking right into that. Perhaps you're the one who should take a break from this thread all things considered
Name checks out.
Self_Destructive
Member
Yea, you got nothing.Name checks out.
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JackMcGunns
Member
So the Series X is more powerful, but the low level API in the PS5 help make up for it. The “Tools” what has been said all along.
A takeaway is that the PS5 is already at maximum efficiency, whereas there’s still room for improvement for Series X.
The Coalition is cooking!
A takeaway is that the PS5 is already at maximum efficiency, whereas there’s still room for improvement for Series X.
The Coalition is cooking!
Topher
Identifies as young
Better compiler and higher clock speeds as well. More than just "tools" which has also been said all along.
"So, based on our conversations, the combination of a more efficient GPU compiler, lower-level APIs and higher clock speeds allows PlayStation 5 to match or even exceed the outputs of Xbox Series X in some scenarios. "
ftfy
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sendit
Member
I'm going to have to go with the Series X on this one, it just looks more cinematic.Please give me an example of how the AF on the XSX version of Doom Eternal is better. It's different from my understanding.
I've played Doom Eternal on both PS5 and XSX, and the PS5 version looks better.
* All images are in RT mode (1800p/60fps).
You don't even wanna know how things will play out going forward .So the Series X is more powerful, but the low level API in the PS5 help make up for it. The “Tools” what has been said all along.
A takeaway is that the PS5 is already at maximum efficiency, whereas there’s still room for improvement for Series X.
The Coalition is cooking!
Hint PS5 has a 2:1 advantage in data driving software & if the shackles come off Series X would choke
Shakka43
Member
Series X is the Anthony Smith of consoles' fighting.
Physiognomonics
Member
Visual Studio is not a compiler. PS5 uses Clang and Xbox GCC. Both tools suite (including PS5 SDK) actually use Visual Studio.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Please give me an example of how the AF on the XSX version of Doom Eternal is better. It's different from my understanding.
I've played Doom Eternal on both PS5 and XSX, and the PS5 version looks better.
* All images are in RT mode (1800p/60fps).
In the RT mode the anisotropic filtering is at a higher sample rate than PS5 ...DF even touched on it briefly in their analysis. Eternal looks better on Series X due to this it was apparent to me inmediately after coming from the ps5 version. The RT reflections also look clearer and more defined. I have both versions.
Btw- the AF isnt noticeable in those pics ...you have to look at the ground to see it ..the ground looks clearer further from the player whereas on PS5 it's blurry
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Team Andromeda
Member
TheGodfather07
Member
Feels like I've been teleported back to 2020 reading this thread.
cireza
Member
People act like this is a huge win for PS5, but what I read still implies Series X having games that run just as good, or better, while supporting a higher level API with all the advantages this leads too in terms of compatibility.
This is a reason why we get more PC/Xbox titles, and why BC works so well on Xbox. This is also the reason why the next Xbox will have excellent BC. I wouldn't bet on PS6 being BC with how specific some aspects of the PS5 are, it already looks like a more difficult job.
This is a reason why we get more PC/Xbox titles, and why BC works so well on Xbox. This is also the reason why the next Xbox will have excellent BC. I wouldn't bet on PS6 being BC with how specific some aspects of the PS5 are, it already looks like a more difficult job.
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
? MSVC is part of VS. There is no standalone compiler.
Edit: The above is on PC side of course.
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havoc00
Member
The debate really exposed truths this week
Unknown Soldier
Member
Careful with the politics its not allowed here
Yes that's a good thing this is the last place on Earth you can talk about gaming without politics
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havoc00
Member
Just adding on to the crazy week thing not taking sides.
You are comparing a 45% difference, not 20.
Well there's this famous meme about how MS teams collaborate:
CitizenKratos
Member
You need to calculate 20% more pixels not vertical resolution. That would be a little over 1576p
So 1440p -> 1576p is a 20% bump in performance. Tough to notice that on a typical 65” display.
Edit: beaten by fafalada
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M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
There is a lot of added complexion, X360 was Direct X ~9 (+ some extras) and that was simple API, the Direct X 12 is totally different beast
bitbydeath
Member
Mr.Phoenix
Member
My takeaway from this is, a list should be compiled, and a thread made of literal people to not listen to going forward.
Or at the very least confirmed industry shills that work in the media. Then whenever something new is coming along, we fact check whatever is being said by if or if not that journos name is on that list.
Cause I don't know what it was, if the game media is just full of fanboys, or if MS really does pay off a lot of these people... but regardless of the fact that Cerny said this shit... 6 months before the PS5 launched, there was so much FUD being pushed around and false claims by so many people back then.
And here we are now, almost 4 years later, regurgitating the exact same shit Cerny said 4 years ago... like its some new breakthrough.
Or at the very least confirmed industry shills that work in the media. Then whenever something new is coming along, we fact check whatever is being said by if or if not that journos name is on that list.
Cause I don't know what it was, if the game media is just full of fanboys, or if MS really does pay off a lot of these people... but regardless of the fact that Cerny said this shit... 6 months before the PS5 launched, there was so much FUD being pushed around and false claims by so many people back then.
And here we are now, almost 4 years later, regurgitating the exact same shit Cerny said 4 years ago... like its some new breakthrough.
It's obvious they aren't satisfied with these machines.that certain Crytek devs gonna be like :
UltimaKilo
Gold Member
You are comparing a 45% difference, not 20.
Well there's this famous meme about how MS teams collaborate:
That’s a really inefficient way to work. I have worked consulting a few major companies and I have been shocked at how siloed off various departments are, to the point where if they need to produce a video for a project in division XYZ, they will contract out the work to a 3rd party firm, meanwhile, they have an entire digital team in the marketing department. However, never openly hostile like your meme suggests.
Kumomeme
Member
Mr.Phoenix
Member
It has surely taken more than a year, and will still ultimately b one of those end-generation post-mortem-type things that concede to how the PS5 was better designed... but I guess they got there eventually.
Its just funny to me, I mean while on the tools side of things, it may have taken a year or two for the dust to settle on that, but right off the jump, after Cedrnys presentation and when the specs were there to be compared, it was obvious that this would never be a 10 vs 12Tf type thing. But what happened was that the media... for whatever reason (come on the reason is obvious), went on this weird smear, misinformation and fear-mongering campaign, playing down whatever obvious strengths the PS5 had in worse cases, outright acting like the more subtle strengths didn't even exist.
The craziest thing though... is how most people didn't notice, that not a single developer came out and ever said the PS5 was a problem or even weaker. Not once. The only people saying shit, were literally the people that knew the least about it to begin with.
Speaks to the state or integrity of this industry.
PeteBull
Member
DBZ in console power comparision thread is always a win, very apropiate too, so big kudos, my friendCerny = Vegeta
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Only that the run better thing was there since launch... literally with the launch lineup of games. It had DF shook, as they kept saying... "they did not know why it was happening".
Sony knows exactly what hardware their API targets, Microsoft has always had to contend with compatibility with Direct x. Much like windows, building for compatibility and multiple purposes makes things slower than lighter weight more targeted alternatives. Not saying anything about the quality of the APIs or development tools, just that Sony had the easier job and always will.
PeteBull
Member
As u see in framerate comparision x360 vs ps3 both versions ran terribly, dips to 20fps even durning driving, prologue sequence durning shoot outs and driving dips to low 20s too, and big explosions- below 20
Here another good fps test, from DF, ps4 vs lowrange/entry lvl pc combo from early 2014(i remember it costed around/below 500$ total)
Game looks and runs so much better, and obviously amount of optimisation was tiny in comparision, this all goes to show how important is power in our gaming mashines- no amount coding to the metal/optimisation(and cuts) will make up for weak hardware, as we got proof in switch and all its multiplatform games/ports, on top of first party games too
Shut0wen
Banned
As u see in framerate comparision x360 vs ps3 both versions ran terribly, dips to 20fps even durning driving, prologue sequence durning shoot outs and driving dips to low 20s too, and big explosions- below 20
Here another good fps test, from DF, ps4 vs lowrange/entry lvl pc combo from early 2014(i remember it costed around/below 500$ total)
Game looks and runs so much better, and obviously amount of optimisation was tiny in comparision, this all goes to show how important is power in our gaming mashines- no amount coding to the metal/optimisation(and cuts) will make up for weak hardware, as we got proof in switch and all its multiplatform games/ports, on top of first party games too
Yeah i wasnt talking about frame rate was more pop in textures, happens way to much on 360 compared to ps3
Bonfires Down
Member
Interesting how Phil has been trying to find the secret ingredient.
”It’s hardware power! The most powerful console will win for sure.”
”It’s the price! Our cheap Series S will win for sure!”
”It’s digital library lock-in. We have no chance since gamers already have their digital library on Playstation.”
”No, it’s not the games. Don’t be silly.”
”It’s hardware power! The most powerful console will win for sure.”
”It’s the price! Our cheap Series S will win for sure!”
”It’s digital library lock-in. We have no chance since gamers already have their digital library on Playstation.”
”No, it’s not the games. Don’t be silly.”
PeteBull
Member
And every person knows it was, is and forever will be about games, altho we want it all obviously, but no amount of hardware power helps if u got no or only low quality exclusives(like xbox series for now at least
).Yea siloing is one of the side-effects of combating the Amdahl's law limitations. Cloud companies like Amazon build entire scale-out model on the principle of isolating services from one another. You accept duplication as a side-effect but the acceleration at scale is only possible if you cut dependencies.
But indeed the MS thing is a bit of a running joke in the industry, not sure if it's still as bad in this decade - but it used to be.
DF need to be consistant, if they want to say +18% TF is considerably more powerful then the same should apply to the +22% higher GPU clock on PS5.
DF should be telling everyone the PS5 gpu runs considerably faster than Series X gpu hardware. Which is true but they would never commit to saying even that.