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[Baconsammy]

Different markets. Different expectations from consumers in terms of where their money is going.

Consoles have been around for a pretty long time now and people are used to spending $300-400 every 5 years or so on a console for video game entertainment.

Doing something every 2 years would put the Xbox brand in a similar position to Sega during the mid '90s -- many consoles, customer confusion, devs not knowing what to support, etc. Just wouldn't be that smart to do imo.

That's not an opinion, that's a fact. If they went that route, it would be tantamount to admitting they're no longer a gaming console. Unless every game from the prior iteration always worked on the newer one.

 

[phosphor112]

So... we don't have leaks from these secret events? No dual APU's?

 

[onQ123]

So... we don't have leaks from these secret events? No dual APU's?

We don't even have anything that says that it's even one APU.

 

[JJD]

How long has it been since VGleaks leaked Durango CPU?

Have they leaked everything they had?

 

[phosphor112]

We don't even have anything that says that it's even one APU.

I think it'll be APU, they've gotta be pants on head stupid if they don't.

 

[i-Lo]

That's not an opinion, that's a fact. If they went that route, it would be tantamount to admitting they're no longer a gaming console. Unless every game from the prior iteration always worked on the newer one.

Precisely, a move like that is antithetical to core principle for a console's existence. Plus, given the amount of customization and consequently the money that has gone into this project, I do not see them bringing out a new version and fracturing user base every two years or so. It will be a nuisance to both developers and consumers alike.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

How long has it been since VGleaks leaked Durango CPU?

Have they leaked everything they had?

Anything of significant importance as a new and/or different feature or spec would have been revealed by now with so many days since the last article, certainly. The longer they could hold onto information in a drip-feed is the closer they are to losing any and all value in that information due to a bigger, more solid, and more current status leak from competing sources, who are also looking for hits, and when MS eventually reveals it all themselves.

 

[titch]

That's not an opinion, that's a fact. If they went that route, it would be tantamount to admitting they're no longer a gaming console. Unless every game from the prior iteration always worked on the newer one.

Again Ms seen to be aiming to make something more than just a gaming console and I would have thought one of the key criteria would be full backwards compatibly from this next gen at least.

From a price point of view using cheaper less powerful components would allow them to release a cheaper product but improve the spec with each iteration as hardware improved, using storage as an example the average price of the current 'in' storage size usually stays the same but next year you will get a bigger drive for the same price. I don't see with the same design infrastructure and software design controls that they already seem to have in place they couldn't go down this route.

 

[pswii60]

The differences between X360 games and PS3 games have driven plenty of 360 sales.

If by 'plenty' you mean some tens of thousands of units, then fine. But certainly not millions.

And next generation's sales winner will not be in any way related to the console's hardware specification.

 

[dragonelite]

Anything of significant importance as a new and/or different feature or spec would have been revealed by now with so many days since the last article, certainly. The longer they could hold onto information in a drip-feed is the closer they are to losing any and all value in that information due to a bigger, more solid, and more current status leak from competing sources, who are also looking for hits, and when MS eventually reveals it all themselves.

It would be better to wait till microsoft announces their event officially.
Or just before GDC something has to leak with GDC right??

 

[Baconsammy]

Again Ms seen to be aiming to make something more than just a gaming console and I would have thought one of the key criteria would be full backwards compatibly from this next gen at least.

From a price point of view using cheaper less powerful components would allow them to release a cheaper product but improve the spec with each iteration as hardware improved, using storage as an example the average price of the current 'in' storage size usually stays the same but next year you will get a bigger drive for the same price. I don't see with the same design infrastructure and software design controls that they already seem to have in place they couldn't go down this route.

They could never take the bi-yearly route. They'd kill every relationship they had with third parties. If they did it, it's no longer a gaming console. It's a media box that, oh by the way, plays a few games MS happened to make. Third parties sure aren't going to sign up for that.

 

[Mandoric]

We can confidently assume a small bump in sales due to publicized differences, anyway, and despite being hit over the head with sledgehammers how PS3 is a significantly more powerful platform, based on specs, and because of its free online play. However, most of the difference probably comes from preference for the platform's differences and the larger, more connected-userbase of gamers who go where their friends and others are, leading to greater and more effective WOM. Of course, it helps immensely that X360 significantly leads in installed base in the largest, most software sales-heavy market in the world. Barely anyone outside of forum-dwellers reads or strongly cares about DF or LoT analyses. If there's one thing that PS3 proved quite clearly, it's that highly-touted spec differences can mean so very little to the end products' commercial performance.

Correct, paper performance isn't a biggie. But real-world performance is huge, and imo the biggest part of the X360's ability to snowball: it had a few years of undeniably superior ports.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I think that's the thing though this box isn't just targeted at video game development hence the reason Ms could go down this route, sure the nextbox could be under spec compared to Sony but in 2 years nextbox gen 2 is out with full BC and a spec that goes past Sony for the same price and then two years after that they have the strongest living room box in terms of power and Ms has been taking in double sometimes triple hardware sales, again I an not saying it's the right way to go but if it was me I would certainly be looking at it as an option

Then you have the wall that is reality.

The reason MS and Sony can bring you the hardware they do is because they sell it to you at a loss and make up the cost in accessories and licensing. In order for this smartphone style cycle to work, MS would either have to start using much older and cheaper technology, or increase the cost of consoles to the point where most people aren't going to buy them. Two years wouldn't be long enough for MS to assemble a console that's more powerful than PS4 while costing less than PS4 to the point they can price it competitively and still make a profit off the system.

 

[onQ123]

I think it'll be APU, they've gotta be pants on head stupid if they don't.

I think it will be but I just haven't seen it mentioned in any of the leaks yet but we have reasons to believe it's a APU because it's using the Jaguar Cores & it's shown with a Unified Northbridge other than that it's mostly us assuming that it will be an APU.

 

[JJD]

Anything of significant importance as a new and/or different feature or spec would have been revealed by now with so many days since the last article, certainly. The longer they could hold onto information in a drip-feed is the closer they are to losing any and all value in that information due to a bigger, more solid, and more current status leak from competing sources, who are also looking for hits, and when MS eventually reveals it all themselves.

OK, thanks for clearing that up!

 

[XtremeXpider]

EDIT: Off-topic I guess...

Maybe both platforms (PS4/Durango) are really powerfull:

Q: You moved into console development with Witcher 2, but PC seems very much like your home platform still. In the light of Sony's announcements about how closely tied to PC architecture the PS4 will be, do you see that changing?

Adam Badowski: We know a lot about the next gen platforms that we can't comment on yet, but our strategy is that we're always trying to maximise the quality for the platform, to use its particular strengths and advantages. Usually the weakest platform dictates the quality for all platforms, but high-quality visuals are our trademark so we need to approach each platform as individually as possible.

Of course, large scale technical decisions in our engine, such as opting for 64-bit architecture, Direct X11, are made globally, but we do try to treat platforms individually. PC allows for more at the moment, but new platforms are stepping up. In the future, it should be much easier to unify the requirements. Some things, like control schemes, will still need to be tailored to the platforms but the new platforms will unify requirements.

PC was the lead platform for Witcher 2 because it was the most powerful, but that might change in the future.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ependence-is-a-crucial-part-of-a-our-strategy

 

[Crimson_Gold]

EDIT: Off-topic I guess...

Maybe both platforms (PS4/Durango) are really powerfull:



http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ependence-is-a-crucial-part-of-a-our-strategy

Neither will be a slouch. That's all that really should matter. Hopefully what comes with this new gen are new experiences and expansions on gameplay. Use the power for more than making things pretty. Make them smart, intuitive, and fresh.

Please?

 

[onQ123]

EDIT: Off-topic I guess...

Maybe both platforms (PS4/Durango) are really powerfull:



http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ependence-is-a-crucial-part-of-a-our-strategy

Off-topic? have you seen the rest of this thread? lol



if you post about the CPU it would be off topic in this thread.

 

[statham]

EDIT: Off-topic I guess...

Maybe both platforms (PS4/Durango) are really powerfull:



http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...ependence-is-a-crucial-part-of-a-our-strategy

that reads well for the consoles, but also sounds like the consoles will be quite a bit different from each other.

 

[Shady859]

reads first post in thread, mind is blown, how did it fail if the next generation Xbox is basically the same............

Wish now i'd bought it at launch!



Seriously though i'm pumped to hear real stats, ready for head to head next gen action.

 

[Biggzy]

that reads well for the consoles, but also sounds like the consoles will be quite a bit different from each other.

Judging by the leaks it seems that the memory architecture is the only real major difference between the two.

 

[titch]

They could never take the bi-yearly route. They'd kill every relationship they had with third parties. If they did it, it's no longer a gaming console. It's a media box that, oh by the way, plays a few games MS happened to make. Third parties sure aren't going to sign up for that.

I am sure any third party would be more than happy to sign up to any system that was going to generate them revenue.

Companies are already developing games that are compatible across multiple hardware configurations - is having two or three options - in six years time going break the current status quo that much.

We already have companies like EA dumping their main products after 2-3 years anyway where they are shutting down servers for old titles.

Again i dont think it's a great idea but i can easily see a company like Microsoft going down this kind of route, updating a generic hardware model that is backwards compatible with recent older software which gives updated feature but still provides the same core services and improves on the current feature set.

They have been successfully following this model with many of their other products for decades.

I am not saying something like this is likely to happen i just dont think it is as difficult or as impossible as some of the replies to this idea have made out.

 

[statham]

Judging by the leaks it seems that the memory architecture is the only real major difference between the two.

exactly. I wonder about these leaks.

 

[nib95]

Judging by the leaks it seems that the memory architecture is the only real major difference between the two.

Not really. Memory bandwidth, number of ROP's (double), number of CU's etc. Memory thing might be one of the biggest differences, but there are others too, mostly giving the PS4 further advantage (based on rumours).

 

[Kun Aguero]

And next generation's sales winner will not be in any way related to the console's hardware specification.

Depends how big the difference is. If it's negligible then no problem, but if both are priced at a similar level yet one consistently out performs the other one, then that will make a pretty big difference.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Not really. Memory bandwidth, number of ROP's (double), number of CU's etc. Memory thing might be one of the biggest differences, but there are others too, mostly giving the PS4 further advantage (based on rumours).

I think he means the architecture, only memomy is different.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Judging by the leaks it seems that the memory architecture is the only real major difference between the two.

There's a major difference in GPU power that is the most critical component. Could also have a substantial difference in resources dedicated to non gaming functions.

 

[Biggzy]

There's a major difference in GPU power that is the most critical component. Could also have a substantial difference in resources dedicated to non gaming functions.

Same architecture though, and it is relatively 'trivial' to tone down a few effects here and there compared to redesigning your levels and workflow because of memory 'issues'.

I think he means the architecture, only memomy is different.

That is exactly what I meant.

 

[RayMaker]

Depends how big the difference is. If it's negligible then no problem, but if both are priced at a similar level yet one consistently out performs the other one, then that will make a pretty big difference.

visuals and power alone do not determine the sales winner, if that was the case the xbox 1 would have sold better but it didnt due to the PS2's better 3rd party support and a year head start.

If you look at previous gen winners - wii, ps2, ps1 , having the best visuals and most power had nothing to do with there success.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Same architecture though, and it is relatively 'trivial' to tone down a few effects here and there compared to redesigning your levels and workflow because of memory 'issues'.



That is exactly what I meant.

I think the same:

- Same CPU
- Same GPU family (not same power)
- Same memory quantity
- Different memory subsystem and different bandwidth.

I guess both will do "the same" but at different performance, maybe the worst case will be 1080p vs 720p or 60fps vs 30fps.

 

[Kun Aguero]

visuals and power alone do not determine the sales winner, if that was the case the xbox 1 would have sold better but it didnt due to the PS2's better 3rd party support and a year head start.

That is key. No one is getting a year head start this time around, no time to build up a huge install base before the opposition release their console.

 

[XtremeXpider]

That is key. No one is getting a year head start this time around, no time to build up a huge install base before the opposition release their console.

Wii was released a year later than Xbox 360...

 

[Biggzy]

I think the same:

- Same CPU
- Same GPU family (not same power)
- Same memory quantity
- Different memory subsystem and different bandwidth.

I guess both will do "the same" but at different performance, maybe the worst case will be 1080p vs 720p or 60fps vs 30fps.

I doubt we will get the 60 fps vs 30 fps scenario. If a developer is targeting 60 fps, it is because they think it is vital for the game. In that scenario I expect developers will tone down the fidelity of the Durango version to get to that target.

 

[Unknown One]

Probably a difference between low to medium to high graphic settings, framerates, AA, and possibly resolution.

 

[PhatSaqs]

Wii was released a year later than Xbox 360...

 

[ascii42]

Wii was released a year later than Xbox 360...

But it wasn't a direct competitor like the PS3 was.

 

[Lynn616]

Well it is a CPU thread and someone mentions Kinect and suddenly the usual suspects rush in and try to convince everyone it is a good thing. So ya, it is a defense force. Don't want to be lumped in, don't post so predictably about the same topics so much.

You should take your own advice.

 

[Roki6]

No thank you, that would mean shorter dev cycles for games, more rush jobs shoved out of the door before they were ready and less risks taken with the cutting edge hardware overall.

It would also mean higher console prices as the razor/razor blade model would have to be dropped entirely, so you'd either end up with lower overall quality hardware or higher initial prices.

Dev cycles could stay the same becasue arcitecture would stay the same for 6 or more years. If they plan to publish the game in 3 years they would target next upgrade (besides the current one) which woud just have faster (but basically the same) CPU/GPU.

I agree about razor blade stuff.
Unless they designed it to be cheap (DDR3, etc.) but that is unlikely.
Or they count on money from Gold subscriptions

I just wish that next generation is shorter. Would 4 years be ok?

Not a good idea. Console benefit from low-level coding. If you do this multiple platforms thing, they'd have to use a higher level methodology which would crap out performance. It makes a console into a pc.

but developers are already forced to do everything trough official (DirectX) API

 

[Baconsammy]

One of the best and most appropriate response gifs ever.

But it wasn't a direct competitor like the PS3 was.

Yes it was.

 

[Kun Aguero]

Wii was released a year later than Xbox 360...

Yes but it wasn't exactly a like for like competitor, and nintendo don't look as though they are going to be at the races barring a miracle next-gen.

 

[XtremeXpider]

but developers are already forced to do everything trough official (DirectX) API

Rumor.

Yes but it wasn't exactly a like for like competitor, and nintendo don't look as though they are going to be at the races barring a miracle next-gen.

Some gafers said Durango is not a "like for like" competitor, it is not a "core" console.

 

[Roki6]

Rumor.

AFAIK it is already like that on 360

 

[XtremeXpider]

AFAIK it is already like that on 360

Link?

If all games on Xbox 360 are coded only with API, then backward compatibility can be achieved.

 

[ascii42]

Yes it was.

No it wasn't. It was different. It did things differently. It attracted a different market. It was priced differently.

It was different.

 

[Mandoric]

Link?

If all games on Xbox 360 are coded only with API, then backward compatibility can be achieved.

Not necessarily true.

 

[shinra-bansho]

The differences in launch date between X360 games and PS3 games have driven plenty of 360 sales.

Fixed - I don't think Digital Foundry generally swayed anyone but the ultra-enthusiast. I think launching later was one of the biggest mistakes; coupled with the price essentially slowing early momentum even more. Sure, a one year lead can be squandered (see: Dreamcast, Wii U right now); but Microsoft established enough of a base in the US that I think it had follow on effects throughout the generation - people go where their friends go.

It'll be interesting whether this effect can be carried over cross-generation or whether it's a tabula rasa.

 

[Baconsammy]

No it wasn't. It was different. It did things differently. It attracted a different market. It was priced differently.

It was different.

Doing things differently doesn't mean they're not competition. Means they had a wider scope (they wanted casuals and core). To illustrate further that they were competition, both Microsoft and Sony copied them in hopes of attracting the casual dollars.

 

[dragonelite]

but developers are already forced to do everything trough official (DirectX) API

We dont know how effective that API is.
Im im not mistaken 360 devs are allowed to program in assemble for the cpu and shader assemble for the gpu from what i could gather on Beyond3D.

 

[oldergamer]

AFAIK it is already like that on 360

It is and its a non-issue. Whoever started talking about this like it's some sort of massive performance hit, or a negative compared to ps4, simply didn't know what they were talking about.

 

[soul creator]

I've posted on a similar thing before, but I'm curious...were there any redesigns to this extent for the PS3? I know it had a bunch of revisions but I wasn't sure if they ever actually combined Cell/GPU into one chip in the most recent versions.