Christberg
Member
GOOD. We can and should put the entire DEA out of business. They're a worthless waste of taxpayer money that could be used for much better purposes.
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VICE: Legal pot in U.S. is hurting Mexican drug cartels.
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Not so much arguing about legalization of anything so much as someone has to deal with all the Meth labs.
Well, theoretically if a bunch of stuff were legalized it would be heavily regulated, so someone would have to enforce those regulations.
Devolution
Member
Well, theoretically if a bunch of stuff were legalized it would be heavily regulated, so someone would have to enforce those regulations.
This too.
Although I don't see something like krokadil needing legalization. I draw the line at stuff like that.
No sense punishing the users, who are the victims of addiction, which discourages them reaching out for help. But it's not okay to be the one pushing harmful and addictive drugs onto others. The War on Drugs hasn't been working, and we need to rethink a lot of it. A lot. But saying "fuck it, whatever" and allowing everything and anything isn't going to make people get addicted to drugs less.
It probably will because it takes the danger/coolness (for some people) out of the equation and if we either nationalize or highly regulate the industry that will likely mean that less young people will use it, and they are usually the people who are more suseptible of becoming addicted.
You say you want to rethink it and radically change how things are done, but you can't think of anything because there is nothing else we can really do. We can't go on military raids, blowing poppy fields up and executing drug dealers, we can't secure all of our borders and check every shipment into America, and we can't prevent drug dealers from selling drugs. We can eliminate all of that stuff though and control it ourselves by legalizing it.
The vast majority of drug users are not addicts.No sense punishing the users, who are the victims of addiction, which discourages them reaching out for help. But it's not okay to be the one pushing harmful and addictive drugs onto others. The War on Drugs hasn't been working, and we need to rethink a lot of it. A lot. But saying "fuck it, whatever" and allowing everything and anything isn't going to make people get addicted to drugs less.
It varies a bit (but not as much as people think) from substance to substance but 80%-90% of drug users don't turn into addicts (It's hard to get really accurate numbers since drug warriors made it really hard to conduct a serious research on this subject).
I think we should make it hard to make money selling things that are harmful to society (and we should extend to things that are not classified as drugs) and that's about it.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Man has this one neat secret trick that gets rid of drug cartels. The DEA hates him!
Fenderputty
Banned
No sense punishing the users, who are the victims of addiction, which discourages them reaching out for help. But it's not okay to be the one pushing harmful and addictive drugs onto others. The War on Drugs hasn't been working, and we need to rethink a lot of it. A lot. But saying "fuck it, whatever" and allowing everything and anything isn't going to make people get addicted to drugs less.
Right ... Decriminalization is at least a good and more humanistic approach to users. However it does nothing to curb the black market, violence and crime that comes with it.
What do you think full legalization would do differently than decriminalization ? You must think it does something for you to hold this stance.
This too.
Although I don't see something like krokadil needing legalization. I draw the line at stuff like that.
Agreed. Shit like that and even meth are still too dangerous IMO.
This too.
Although I don't see something like krokadil needing legalization. I draw the line at stuff like that.
You do lines of krokadil?
Hardcore!
It probably will because it takes the danger/coolness (for some people) out of the equation and if we either nationalize or highly regulate the industry that will likely mean that less young people will use it, and they are usually the people who are more suseptible of becoming addicted.
I live in Colorado and I don't think anyone I see lining up in front of the legal marijuana dispensaries (which have been selling out regularly) are too concerned about losing their cool-guy rebel shtick as long as they get some weed.
Coriolanus
Banned
Just because one thing that's bad for you gets a pass (because it's so deeply ingrained in every society since society itself was invented) we should open the door for everything that's bad?
You seem to be of the opinion that cocaine is particularly harmful. If that is not the case, I apologize for the induction.
Have you ever looked at how deadly cocaine and heroine are, compared to...say, alcohol? Or LSD, for that matter.
If you're aware of the answer to that, It is evident that the next argument would usually be "if one bad thingis ok, then all should be ok?", which, ok, has some validity to it.
Another way to look at it, however, would be to say "ah, so we should ban alcohol?", and the answer to that is obvious, especially if you take history into account.
So why keep repeating the same mistake that was commited with alcohol? Or the mistake that is only now starting to be corrected with weed?
And no, decriminalization is not enough. People need legitimate places to buy drugs, otherwise you're only giving untaxed money away to criminals and creating a lot of other issues.
I live in Colorado and I don't think anyone I see lining up in front of the legal marijuana dispensaries (which have been selling out regularly) are too concerned about losing their cool-guy rebel shtick as long as they get some weed.
Well, I am convinced Your anecdotal observations definitely trump known behavioral patterns.
Fenderputty
Banned
The danger in cocain comes from it's addictivity and ease of overdosing. One time use does about as much damage to the brain as booze I believe though. The high is subtle too. It's far more benign than people think.
Right ... Decriminalization is at least a good and more humanistic approach to users. However it does nothing to curb the black market, violence and crime that comes with it.
What do you think full legalization would do differently than decriminalization ? You must think it does something for you to hold this stance.
When something is legal, it becomes perceived as something acceptable to do. It becomes a casual occurrence. It's one of the reasons why prescription drug addiction isn't seen as big of a problem as it really is. Prescription drugs are seen as "okay" so no one bats an eye at them, even when they're being abused. As I touched on before, it's one of the reasons why prohibition failed. Alcohol has been the norm for everyone, from every culture, for thousands of years. No other substance is even close in parity. And would you want it do be? Once the door is opened and something becomes accepted, but its harder and harder to then close that door.
Prescription drugs are seen as "okay" so no one bats an eye at them, even when they're being abused.
Maybe 20 years ago this was true.
People are pretty damn aware of narcotic painkiller abuse nowadays, and people certainly "bat eyes" at the concept.
This.I find it hard to believe that legalization in two states have dented the cartels all that much. Legalization across the country would absolutely cripple them, though. All the more reason to legalize it everywhere, ASAP.
Well, I am convinced Your anecdotal observations definitely trump known behavioral patterns.
Better than your baseless assumption that usage will go down due to legalization being "square". Because whoever heard of people doing something lame like legal booze of cigarettes?
Besides, even if everything was legalized there would still be an age limit like with tobacco, booze and marijuana. So your argument that teenagers wouldn't have anything illegal to take for the sake of rebellion under legalization is moot.
Alcoholism isn't acceptable and does not seem okay to anyone.When something is legal, it becomes perceived as something acceptable to do. It becomes a casual occurrence. It's one of the reasons why prescription drug addiction isn't seen as big of a problem as it really is. Prescription drugs are seen as "okay" so no one bats an eye at them, even when they're being abused. As I touched on before, it's one of the reasons why prohibition failed. Alcohol has been the norm for everyone, from every culture, for thousands of years. No other substance is even close in parity. And would you want it do be? Once the door is opened and something becomes accepted, but its harder and harder to then close that door.
And that's exactly how it would be with other drugs, if you can take acid on the weekend and keep your life together (like the absolute majority of people can, with all drugs) then it will be perceived as acceptable and it should be.
If you're one if the unfortunate few that can't then just like with alcohol you should seek help, and as a society we should encourage you to do so.
Alcoholism isn't acceptable and does not seem okay to anyone.
And that's exactly how it would be with other drugs, if you can take acid on the weekend and keep your life together (like the absolute majority of people can, with all drugs) then it will be perceived as acceptable and it should be.
If you're one if the unfortunate few that can't then just like with alcohol you should seek help, and as a society we should encourage you to do so.
You keep saying that, but by your own admittance, you have nothing to back that up with.
I find it hard to believe that legalization in two states have dented the cartels all that much. Legalization across the country would absolutely cripple them, though. All the more reason to legalize it everywhere, ASAP.
Both states already had massive local pot industries pre-legalization as well.
Not to mention if Washingtonians were smoking imported weed it would more likely come from Canada, not Mexico.
It always seemed particularly unlikely to me that the Cartel had much of a stake in the Washington pot trade, they definitely didn't in the Seattle area.
Didn't stop the marketing behind the law to claim that literally "the Cartel pockets ALL of the profits."
That doesn't mean that the general atttitude towards pot in places like WA/CO hasn't affected the Cartel. Same with California. There IS way more pot grown in the States now, but it's not directly related to the 2 States that officially legalized it. It has just as much to do with the growth in the grey-market surrounding medical pot. Huge chunk of those growers sell on the black market, and a huge chunk of those buying pot legally are not really in any medical need situation.
And it's all helped to both raise quality expectations and lower prices.
burnside13
Member
They will just diversify their investments in the same way Russian and Italian Mafia invest in the stock market.
Fenderputty
Banned
When something is legal, it becomes perceived as something acceptable to do. It becomes a casual occurrence. It's one of the reasons why prescription drug addiction isn't seen as big of a problem as it really is. Prescription drugs are seen as "okay" so no one bats an eye at them, even when they're being abused. As I touched on before, it's one of the reasons why prohibition failed. Alcohol has been the norm for everyone, from every culture, for thousands of years. No other substance is even close in parity. And would you want it do be? Once the door is opened and something becomes accepted, but its harder and harder to then close that door.
I don't buy this. I'm not at all suggesting we stop responsible drug education programs. I think we should offer free drug counseling and rehabilitation programs as well. So I don't think legality would be giving our seal of approval. Cigarettes are legal, but the amount of regulation and packaging rules is an example of what I'm talking about. It's definitely not something I would call a collective seal of approval from society even though you're free to walk into a store and buy them. You know the reason grocery stores and drug stores don't have cigs behind the checkouts anymore? It's because of image.
Generally speaking, the legality isn't what stops people from doing a drug anyway. Certainly not one like heroin.
This.
Medical too. I know lots of mom & pop growers in Cali as an example.
Making distribution illegal means that only criminal scumbags will distribute drugs. That means two things:No sense punishing the users, who are the victims of addiction, which discourages them reaching out for help. But it's not okay to be the one pushing harmful and addictive drugs onto others. The War on Drugs hasn't been working, and we need to rethink a lot of it. A lot. But saying "fuck it, whatever" and allowing everything and anything isn't going to make people get addicted to drugs less.
- Drugs will remain a lucrative illegal business that funnels lots of money into the pockets of scumbags
- Drugs will be of unknown concentration and purity because they're being created and distributed by scumbags. That's even more dangerous than even just the drugs themselves.
Better than your baseless assumption that usage will go down due to legalization being "square". Because whoever heard of people doing something lame like legal booze of cigarettes?
Besides, even if everything was legalized there would still be an age limit like with tobacco, booze and marijuana. So your argument that teenagers wouldn't have anything illegal to take for the sake of rebellion under legalization is moot.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/portugal-drug-decriminalization/
http://www.spiegel.de/international...tion-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html
While not complete legalization, decriminalization has in general helped somewhat in Portugal. It's not a dramatic turn around but that would be dependent on how much money they put in rehabilitation programs. It certainly hasn't made the drug problem worse in Portugal.
Coriolanus
Banned
Better than your baseless assumption that usage will go down due to legalization being "square". Because whoever heard of people doing something lame like legal booze of cigarettes?
Besides, even if everything was legalized there would still be an age limit like with tobacco, booze and marijuana. So your argument that teenagers wouldn't have anything illegal to take for the sake of rebellion under legalization is moot.
I understand you have the best of intentions, but your argument has devolved into "we both don't know what the fuck we're talking about".
Please don't do that.
Also very soon them peeps will come back with studies to show that Chichikov is correct.
I don't buy this. I'm not at all suggesting we stop responsible drug education programs. I think we should offer free drug counseling and rehabilitation programs as well. So I don't think legality would be giving our seal of approval. Cigarettes are legal, but the amount of regulation and packaging rules is an example of what I'm talking about. It's definitely not something I would call a collective seal of approval from society even though you're free to walk into a store and buy them. You know the reason grocery stores and drug stores don't have cigs behind the checkouts anymore? It's because of image.
Generally speaking, the legality isn't what stops people from doing a drug anyway. Certainly not one like heroin.
Problem is your drug education programs are going to be shouted down by the companies selling and advertising your newly legalized drugs. Everyone in this thread likes to equate alcohol as being as bad as cocaine but don't seem to mind Budweiser sponsoring the Superbowl. With the increase in corporate personhood, it should be the corporations that scare you, not just the cartels.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/portugal-drug-decriminalization/
http://www.spiegel.de/international...tion-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html
While not complete legalization, decriminalization has in general helped somewhat in Portugal. It's not a dramatic turn around but that would be dependent on how much money they put in rehabilitation programs. It certainly hasn't made the drug problem worse in Portugal.
Seeing as how I've repeatedly said I'm for decriminalization, that's good news!
Making distribution illegal means that only criminal scumbags will distribute drugs.
I've known many many otherwise completely law abiding citizens who have dealt or produced drugs at one time or another.
And many scumbags run businesses that sell products that are completely legal. The entire world is full of legit products made by near-slave labor.
You do have a point, but I think it's better stated more realistically. And it really shouldn't demonize everyone involved. Making something illegal to produce, that people genuinely want, creates a dangerous atmosphere. Whether you are an amoral criminal or not, participating in illegal businesses is much riskier. Scumbags are attracted to it because all dealings are outside of the law, which makes it easier to be corrupt/steal/etc. It also generally naturally creates a very high-margin product which of course is also attractive to the scumbags.
I never said that.You keep saying that, but by your own admittance, you have nothing to back that up with.
I said it's hard to come up with accurate numbers on addiction rate*.
But there are a growing number of studies about this subject and the current scientific understanding of addiction or dependence is that it's less about the specific drug and more about how your brain is wired (there is still debate about how much of it is genetics, but this is the old nature vs. nurture debate), and luckily, most people are not wired like that. You should read this book, it's a good read in general. For what it's worth my own anecdotal experience support that (admittedly, anecdotal evidence doesn't worth a whole lot, but I know enough recreational drug users that I think it's statistically very unlikely that the drugs they use have 90% addiction rate).
But maybe more importantly, the burden of proof should be on the people that want to ban them, if you want to limit freedom in such a big way, you need to justify it, and there is no credible scientific evidence that suggest that anything has a crazy high addiction rate.
* Let me elaborate on this point a bit because I was brief and not thorough since it wasn't too important to the point that I was trying to make -
For years it was practically impossible to get grants to study drug use unless it was strictly focus on their harm, but in recent years it's getting better, but we're still a bit behind on the science of it. Also, addiction can be a bit hard to define and measure, and the definition of things like substance dependence had changed quite a bit in the recent years.
littleworm
Member
So assuming we continue down the path for decriminalization/legalization, what will become of these cartels? I don't for see all drugs being legalized any time soon so I guess that will still be a viable market for them.
The only ones I've known were gun-toting thugs. Quite frankly, I've never encountered a thug selling aspirin, so no matter how many friendly neighborhood illicit drug dealers as there might be, I'd rather have a thousand licenced pharmacists than a thousand illicit drug dealers.I've known many many otherwise completely law abiding citizens who have dealt or produced drugs at one time or another.
Better than your baseless assumption that usage will go down due to legalization being "square". Because whoever heard of people doing something lame like legal booze of cigarettes?
Besides, even if everything was legalized there would still be an age limit like with tobacco, booze and marijuana. So your argument that teenagers wouldn't have anything illegal to take for the sake of rebellion under legalization is moot.
Hasn't tobacco consumption been drastically reduced over the last several decades? Not saying it isn't still an issue today, but it seems to be way less of an issue thanks to strict regulation on purchase, advertising, and public consumption, as well as fact-based education and public service messaging.
Zantetsuken
Member
It's funny that the article says that they are complaining about legalization.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
I find it hard to believe that legalization in two states have dented the cartels all that much. Legalization across the country would absolutely cripple them, though. All the more reason to legalize it everywhere, ASAP.
They're not just counting states with recreational legalization - they're also counting states with medical legalization (which in a some cases, the rules are lax enough that it is basically recreational legalization.)
Fuck the DEA.
Probably the only few things we will agree upon.
You keep saying that, but by your own admittance, you have nothing to back that up with.
Because there are no studies about it... How would there be, since there is no country currently legally selling drugs other than alcohol, tabacco and marihuana.
But we have some small samples we can still use to gauge possible outcomes, like Portugal, where the decriminalisation of all drugs led to less use and abuse.
Or a small experiment in the UK, some years ago, where heroin addicts were given heroin freely in moderation, so they didn't have to go to shady dealers to get their fix. This also led to them taking on more responsibilities and having a much more stable life.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Yep, just another example of extreme corruption by the US government. What's the least liked country in the world these days?What a fucking joke.
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