Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You need a mind to have feelings
VICE - 'Thug Kitchen' is the latest iteration of digital blackface
- Status
You need a mind to have feelings
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I'll say you both are being a bit twatty.
Ok well this has turned into a pissing contest then.
Too many threads where people start insulting one another and it turns into dumb shit like this where we have said nothing constructive for like 5 posts. Refute him/her with argument not insults.
Then deconstruct why it was garbage and explain why you think he/she is wrong in response to them.
Edit: my spelling is terrible today
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Of course you will
All things considered bigmf's post was truly garbage.
Savage
Already did many times in this thread so have others. No point in even dignifying it by responding.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
i have some avocado that needs cutting up right now actually.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
There's nothing to refute in that post. It is objectively shit
If you feel otherwise, well...
If you feel otherwise, well...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't know where you heard this as this isn't a thing anyone's actually saying in the thread.
Granted, there are some alarmist posts, made defensively upon finding out the term CAN BE racially coded, with reactions tending towards "WHAT NOW NOBODY CAN USE THE WORD OR THEY'RE RACIST WHAT BULLSHIT."
But of the people actually pointing out that the word can and has been used as code, NONE OF THEM are saying it's "exclusively" anything. In fact all they're arguing is that maybe the many people coming in here saying "But I don't use it that way" acknowledge that just because they don't use it that way doesn't mean that usage is somehow fictional or out of the ordinary, and keep that in mind next time they're going to use the word, to see if maybe they might be accidentally using it in such a fashion as opposed to the other possible uses.
You can only take that position and warp it into "It's exclusively code for black people" if you're not actually paying attention to what's being talked about.
and yeah, bigmf's post was some almond roca in a sea of cat pickles stinking up the overfull catbox of shitposts littering this thread.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
His original OP was the first time he posted in the thread. Fine enough he/she didn't read the thread, but getting people to agree with you or see your viewpoint is not done by calling them or their content garbage. Tell him/her to read said thread or maybe even point out specific posts. Vitriol just makes you (and not specifically you mind but in general) look like a jerk and therefore easier to disagree with.
Fine.
Why wouldn't he be? He's here to voice his opinion on the matter the same as all of us. And you call his post a turd, all you do is set him up to hate you, whenever he sees your avatar he'll think "what a twat" instead of listening to what you have to say.
His post is garbage. sorry that me acknowledging that offends you.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
He's not posting in good faith. His post is, itself, vitriol as you put it.
There's nothing more to be said about his turd other than to remark upon its marbling and the way litter adheres to it and activates the blue odor-canceling crystals within.
No. It's been explained why it's bad in the US. You'll have to excuse this foreigner if he doesn't buy into the latest asininity coming from that country.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's obvious that he's not. The intention of the post is fairly clear. Discussion is not at all the intent.
As to WHY he'd take that particular tack, I can't say. I'm not that guy. But I gotta imagine it's coming from a very whiny, defensive place in general that he'd rather not have to deal with.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=905471
Read the article linked in the OP. You only have to read #1.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's obvious that he's not. The intention of the post is fairly clear. Discussion is not at all the intent. I'm "not setting him up" to feel or think that he hasn't already very clearly expressed, and expressed in such a manner that it's made obvious honest discussion won't alter or modify in any way; and even if it could, his approach makes that almost impossible because - again - it's not being made in good faith.
As to WHY he'd take that particular tack, I can't say. I'm not that guy. But I gotta imagine it's coming from a very whiny, defensive place in general that he'd rather not have to deal with so he opts instead to try and napalm the conversation with his bullshit as a means to feel better about himself and his decisions to argue in his own way for the continuation of racial denigration in open conversation via coded terms.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Then we'll agree to disagree. All I'm saying (and again not directed specifically towards you) that it helps to talk softly in these sorts of discussions rather than aggressively. Big could certainly could learn from doing so next time, for to relate it to the discussion at hand, it helps you to not to look like a loud-mouthing thug.
Edit: and thug is being used in the non-coded form here I think might be smart to add.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Are you fucking serious with this
He never asked you to come to his defense yet you slid in fingers wagging
He knows full well what he's doing
I don't think I could agree with you more. It does yourself a disservice when you start resorting to one line insults, even if you think a post is really dumb.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Yes of course he knows full well what he did, he typed it and hit submit. I don't agree with what he said and I don't agree with how he said it and I expressed that.
I slipped in to the talk because it's an internet forum and we are talking about things, just like you are. I don't see the issue in doing that, the fact is if he had said something you agreed with and I defended him you wouldn't give a care.
I was trying to be diplomatic and decided to call them both out on their twatty behavior. But you are right I should have done something similar to Kreed.
Dudes trying to do YOU a favour, not defend him. Right now neither of you two are coming off as great, at least not to me. It might not be your goal to get everyone on your side, but if it is, it's better to not to dismiss him so flippantly.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't disagree on that point, I guess I'd just ask why your initial response pursuing that point wasn't directed at him, but instead aimed at those rightfully pointing out his total uselessness in providing any constructive addition to the conversation.
The good faith you're applying to this conversation (and I do believe you're doing so) is essentially being wasted on him, and as such, it's devalued a little, I believe. Arguing that when someone comes into a conversation obviously looking to shut it down and shit all over it, people need to be nice to him otherwise THEY'RE the bad guy might seem constructive and helpful, but what it does is unfairly tip the scales towards the disruptive, bullshit influence, allowing him to be carrying more weight in the conversation AUTOMATICALLY, which is not only unfair, but unreasonable.
edit: and honestly - I do thank you for entering into, and sticking with this conversation WITH that good faith mostly intact. It's appreciated.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Did you actually read the post
What.
In that post.
Would lead you to believe he's open to learning anything or having his mind changed
Vermillion
Banned
If there was ever a post that should have been flippantly dismissed, it was that one. The people who actually want to discuss will phrase their posts differently than that dude did.
Here's the problem, you need to look at this through a U.S. lens. People there often use thug to specifically describe black people that they feel are acting too aggressively. The same level of aggression or confidence in Caucasians is often called other less negative things, like... being aggressive, or confident, or having a strong voice.
Mind you, where it gets tricky is trying to distinguish when this insult is racially motivated or just good ole fashioned baseless personal attacks.
That being said, I think (or at least I hope) the important message isn't that now whenever someone calls a black person a thug, or just uses the word thug, that they are being racist - but what would be smart is to be more critical of the use of the word. Don't just assume whoever says it is racist, but take a step back and try to see what message is trying to be presented.
It's just my opinion, but I think it's always better to assume that a person is trying to have a conversation until they absolutely prove they aren't. Even if you're wrong, the benefit is that someone else who is reading will be more likely to respect your position, and you're less likely to catch heat from other people.
It never ceases to amaze me how tightly some cling to a words "innocence" once it's used for malicious purposes. These terms are rarely ever used and often absent from the average vocabulary, but once a negative connotation is attached to it, the good fight must be fought right?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Seriously. After nearly 400 posts of trying patiently to explain the issue and to people much less offensive and blatantly ignorant, I'm not interested in following the Proper Rules Of Discourse For The Negro For Avoiding Offence anymore
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yes. It's basically advocating that one thinks a little bit about the words they use and why they use them.
The conversation is essentially breaking down because people consider that extra work that they resent for whatever reason.
As if thinking before speaking is somehow a burden.
But then again, there are people in the thread openly admitting they think threaded conversations arranged chronologically are an example of asynchronous, non-linear communication. So it's guaranteed there's going to be pushback on some level because in a media that's entirely dependent on using text to communicate, people fucking LOATHE the idea of reading.
Couple years at Sam Goody, couple years at Circuit City. Funny thing - I was a callous, hot-tempered asshat who got red-assed like a volcanic hemmorhoid at the drop of a pin back then.
I'm just old now.
Yeah throwing around insults and calling people dick heads and insulting people's intelligence over a piece of shit word that really has no value to the average person is very fruitful and deserving of conversation.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
Well make the conversation about that, call him out respectfully. We are in a place dedicated solely to conversation, it's not like you can do anything else.
I'm assuming this post if referring to your patience within the thread, so if I'm wrong I'm sorry, but your very first post within the thread called everyone unfamiliar with the issue of the code word ignorant, which is fair enough. I was and others were as well. But you called it "feigned ignorance", so instead of assuming we were just ignorant you will instead call us liars. I don't appreciate getting called a liar when I wasn't lying. If you mean't BobbyRoberts patience, who we can see educated me about the issue without calling me names or a liar, then yes I'll agree well done.
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
article author said:
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Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
My mistake.
I feel we are all adults on here, correct? If not all of us, most of us. We shouldn't be telling each other how to respond to anything, that's very condescending. That's exactly what that guy is doing by calling the people offended by the use of thug "fucking dumb/dickheads" and proclaiming we have no right or reason to be offended. You're pulling the same stunt here by telling us how we should respond to ignorance as if we are obliged to be cool for anyone. He's childish for that post. He's baiting. Some people are not worth the effort and that's all there is to it.
We go on for pages giving advice and maintaining composure. We know how to talk to people. You don't need to tell us how to behave. It comes off very smug.
Handle your own business. If you don't like how we handled that, reply to him in your own way, but don't go telling well informed individuals that they need to respond this way or that way. Take responsibility for yourself.
I'm not saying this to disrespect you, but that's just how I see it. People get tired of babying folks.
My position is that everyone needs to come in with more honesty and respect, regardless of what opinions and ideas they hold. It's not just bigmf who insinuated people are dick heads or whatever - it's a toxic attitude. I'm not the arbiter of all things just and right, so take my opinion for what it is, but I really think it's better for everyone involved if we make the effort to keep discussion civil and assume everyone has the best intentions until they absolutely prove that they don't.
And when someone comes in saying something very disagreeable, rather than just cuss them out and call them all sorts of things, it's better to patiently and clearly outline why what they said is so disagreeable, or just ignore them. From a purely selfish angle, it makes you seem like the better person.
And just in general, I all too often see people try to paint all the opposition of their position with a big fat brush, like "obviously x = y, and anyone who says otherwise is just a sexist who doesn't know it yet" - that sort of thing puts people on edge, on the defensive and it's going to make you (the royal you) seem not great.
I just think it's better if we (royal we) meet ignorance and even hatred with kindness and optimism.
The very way you respond to someone in a thread can directly affect how I will respond. Consider if I go into a thread about mangoes, and I fucking love mangoes. Now I want to go in and talk about how great they are, but there is a guy in the thread who is shouting at everyone who doesn't like them, calling them idiotic and asshats or whatever - I would rather the person I agree with not act like, I would rather they come from a better place so that I have a strong foundation for my own mango gospel.
And regarding the bold, we all of course know how to talk to people, you don't have to be an adult for that. But there are people who are -much better- at talking to people than me, for example, and I like to learn and model myself after that because in the end it makes what I say matter more, it wins more hearts and minds and it gives me strength. Look at Mumei - the dude is amazing at not just debating, but discussing and persuading people. He has patience and he assumes the best out of everyone when he discusses with them. And people remember, and people notice. I'd much rather be remembered as a Mumei than as... well someone who I won't remember. So yeah, it might seem condescending to try and give advice about how to talk to people, but often it comes from a place of trying to enrich the environment. I want to clarify that I of course don't know what's best for everyone, or even for myself - but that doesn't mean I am not going to voice my opinion and try to improve things if I think I can.
ChawlieTheFair
pip pip cheerio you slags!
I'm sorry if I seemed smug or disrespectful. Don't know what else to say, my opinion on being gentle worded stands.
It's pretty obvious that the same people that participate in these threads have grown tired of the same old shit and consistently resort to sarcasm, condescension, and pretty nasty conversations. I guess it's a normal response but that default response is being directed at people who don't immerse themselves in these discussions who probably only have a surface-level understanding of a lot of these situations(and then of course to genuine assholes). It makes people ultra-defensive or apathetic and then just makes so many of these threads nasty. As long as righteous indignation has such a high ceiling, it's just how it's gonna be around here.
Personally I'd rather the people taking the moral high ground stay there.
These threads feature the same group of posters every time. The topic and article are lure and bait for people to make posts that are usually very dumb/ignorant/offensive or sometimes (less often, but it does in fact occur) rationally and reasonably dissenting from the aforementioned group. Inevitably, responses devolve from the reasoned responses seeking to educate or elucidate why X is a problem into the sarcasm, condescension, and nastiness you note. Indeed, inevitable: the only question is the time it takes.
This happens every time. Nothing is gained. Nothing is changed. The posters who need educating get angry for being "undeservedly" attacked. The posters seeking actual discussion get angry for being attacked like the idiots I just mentioned. The posters who seek to educate or claim to want an actual discussion get angry at people for "not getting it".
At this point, the hunt and kill has become OT-GAF's unofficial sport.
So for the posters who participate in these threads every time, what in the fuck is the point of this?
For the record, I don't disagree that staying calm is the best decision here (generally I'm very easy going with these situations but I can't be cool when someone is that rude), but I do think that confrontation over how anyone handles a situation comes across as condescending, especially given how everyone is never consistently the poster boy of patience.
I just don't feel it's appropriate. It's one thing to say "hey chill out" but it's another to go on about how you can handle things better than them.
That's how I feel about this matter. I don't personally take offense to what you guys are saying but I do feel like you guys need to tone down the holier than thou countenance.
I just don't feel it's appropriate. It's one thing to say "hey chill out" but it's another to go on about how you can handle things better than them.
That's how I feel about this matter. I don't personally take offense to what you guys are saying but I do feel like you guys need to tone down the holier than thou countenance.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Do you expect people to only try and educate and re-educate everyone who comes into every thread, and on each page? There actually are some patient souls who do that, but does that then mean we're not allowed to express exasperation?
I think there is a fundamental disconnect in that for many posters, these race threads are completely academic, while for some of us we're talking about something that affects our lives. People who show genuine interest and a desire to know are more often then not responded to accordingly, but there are a LOT of posters who just drop off a line of incredulity or smarminess and never show up again, or wait to pick apart something that another poster says because it's not 100% accurate or backed up by #facts. Then you have tone police who will only suffer a discussion to be had under their terms, which can lead to people not wanting to share information or experiences at all.
Honestly, it would be better for all parties if people who don't really care about racism or feel exasperated every time they see a race-related thread would just move along to something that does interest them, but some people can't help themselves.
Sometimes, people genuinely just didn't know and actually learn something. Not surprisingly those are often posters who read more than just the title and don't just blurt out the first thing that comes into their heads.
There is no sport, there is no hunt-and-kill. Not everything bears equal consideration. People can either read OPs and posts, think about what they've seen, and respond accordingly, or they can smash keys.
If you're talking about educating people in the thread you can't really accuse others of having a holier than though countenance. You have to have a pretty high opinion of yourself to even say you're educating people rather than participating in a discussion.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
If you tell someone something they didn't know previously, that's education
Not everyone reacts so violently to receiving new information.
I understand that some people are genuinely afraid of having their perception altered, but if that's the case why participate at all
Educating someone about something they don't know isn't the same as telling someone something they already know.
Since when is being an educator considered arrogant? I more or less feel that if we see each other as equals, we should talk to each other accordingly. A moment of frustration is not reason enough to start talking down to someone. People have different temperaments. Doesn't mean they deserve lectures.
Now if this person is being disrespectful, that's a different ball park. The moral lectures being thrown at the respondees is misplaced imo. It should have been aimed at the poster coming in" guns blazing".
If you're trying to educate people you need to get people to empathise. Laying about with anger and indignation and accusing people of not being genuine will only drive people away from your message. If you show you are easily angered and resort to personal attacks then trolls will rub their hands together and take pot shots at you. Then the convo has turned from discussion(education) to a shitfest that gets nowhere. The poster above is correct. These threads all turn out the same. As someone who is trying to get a message across you can bitch and moan about that or adjust your strategy. I won't say any more because Ishi will tell me I'm on my high horse soon
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
If you're trying to educate people you need to get people to empathise. Laying about with anger and indignation and accusing people of not being genuine will only drive people away from your message. If you show you are easily angered and resort to personal attacks then trolls will rub their hands together and take pot shots at you. Then the convo has turned from discussion(education) to a shitfest that gets nowhere. The poster above is correct. These threads all turn out the same. As someone who is trying to get a message across you can bitch and moan about that or adjust your strategy. I won't say any more because Ishi will tell me I'm on my high horse soon
So to sum up
You came into the thread just to tell us we're not doing a good job of reaching people and "don't feed the trolls" and to chastise us for becoming exasperated for dealing with the same shit every thread
And had absolutely nothing to say about the topic itself
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
Yes, but if you really think they are a troll, then you are only feeding the fire they want to start. If they are just a very ignorant person, you're giving them justification for being so ugly towards others and being so invested and rooted in their ignorant beliefs. The best way is to respond politely or not to respond at all. The responders represent the cause they believe in, to the person they are responding to and anyone else looking at this thread. One angry/ugly response will hurt your cause more than 10 polite ones will help it.
Also, Hanlon's razor.
This isn't a competition to see who breaks first or who can't handle the pressure. If that's what your goal is coming into these threads, you need to reevaluate your priorities. I enter these threads to help where I can, but disrespect warrants nothing from me. Dismissed, next person please, is my stance.
I aim to teach and discuss, not to look better than anyone. My image does not depend on how nice or perfect I can be, but how I feel and the way I stick to my guns without worrying about my ego. I don't seek to win.
If you see that as wrong, I dunno what to say.
Freddy, I'll kick you.
I aim to teach and discuss, not to look better than anyone. My image does not depend on how nice or perfect I can be, but how I feel and the way I stick to my guns without worrying about my ego. I don't seek to win.
If you see that as wrong, I dunno what to say.
Freddy, I'll kick you.
- Status