I can't wait to see Steam wrecking Clannad's price down, maybe.
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Visual Novels Community Thread | A Little Something for Everyone
- Thread starter Yuuichi
- Start date
calc84maniac
Member
That's more than I paid for my (early-bird) physical copy. I'm a bit surprised to see that they're pricing it higher than the Kickstarter for the normal digital tier.
Basileus777
Member
It's best not to get angry, people there will downvote the most random shit, including posts that are simply stating facts.
It just seems like the subreddit has it out for me and other people who think alike.
At $50, it's $20 too much for me. I'll wait for a sale, like Grisaia. Sekai Project should learn a thing or two with companies like Idea Factory International, that would rather have the fanbase pick up the game at launch with a deep discount and continue the discussion until the next sale rather than choosing a really high price where few but the ones that got it from the Kickstarter will get to play.
Maybe this was their plan all along, make Kickstarter look like a premium club where you can get their games cheaper than their MSRP at launch.
By the way, upvoted your posts, Jazz.
Maybe this was their plan all along, make Kickstarter look like a premium club where you can get their games cheaper than their MSRP at launch.
By the way, upvoted your posts, Jazz.
It's probably Key who decided the price. Basically SP doesn't really have a choice.
Basileus777
Member
I buy $40 visual novels from MangaGamer so it's not that outrageous (and I kind of resent the idea that VNs can't be worth a full priced game), but MangaGamer also isn't selling games that have been fan translated years ago and were $20 cheaper if you bought them via Kickstarter. And when they put games on Steam they usually price lower.
Key huh. That probably explains it. I have heard stories of some Japanese companies being hardheaded about pricing. That's a damn shame.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Generally my limit for visual novels is about $40.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Generally my limit for visual novels is about $40.
It'll probably be $40 for the launch discount, and likely be further discounted further down the road.
That may be true too. Honestly I am buying so many games coming up that I have no idea when I will be able to get Clannad. But I was looking forward to it since I heard so many good things about it.
Basileus777
Member
Sekai Project usually discounts their games pretty heavy a few months after release, though this could be different here since it is Key. I can't recall how much Planetarian has been on sale.
R_thanatos
Member
Wait clannad is going to be 50$ ?
Lol , no.
Maybe with the right marketing and a superbowl ad it would sell at that price.
LOooool
I can't.. dat SPIN .. that argument is killing me.
EDIT :
Clannad is a legendary VN .. but that legendary status isn't a "getoutofjail+freelunch" card
And the it's huge argument , i'm so sad
BY that logic , xseed should have gone 60$ for Tits SC because it's the one of the longest script to translate for a rpg , right ? They didn't ..And anyone with a bit of common sense figured out why.
Lol , no.
Maybe with the right marketing and a superbowl ad it would sell at that price.
LOooool
I can't.. dat SPIN .. that argument is killing me.
EDIT :
Clannad is a legendary VN .. but that legendary status isn't a "getoutofjail+freelunch" card
And the it's huge argument , i'm so sad
BY that logic , xseed should have gone 60$ for Tits SC because it's the one of the longest script to translate for a rpg , right ? They didn't ..And anyone with a bit of common sense figured out why.
Yeah I couldn't think of a response to that.
R_thanatos
Member
I was once a backer of the clannad kickstarter , but i finally backed 0.00$
Much more intresting things to back came at that time so i'll ask. When are the rewards of psysical coming out ? I'm going to guess 2016 ?
Much more intresting things to back came at that time so i'll ask. When are the rewards of psysical coming out ? I'm going to guess 2016 ?
Yes. Next year. I was thinking of getting the digital version, since I only backed for the physical version, but this price makes me hesitant.
This is exactly what I was thinking. $30 for the hell that game went through in localizing, is completely fair. Even then, I'm sure most were hoping it would be closer to $20.
But yeah a VN at $50 is perfectly fine! I only buy the $x for x anount of hours/content arguement so far :/
Currently on amazon.jp, Clannad (memorial edition, the closest thing I can think of to this release) is 4900円 (~$40) new, and 4400円(~$35) used.
This is the first and only PC release in HD.
In a new engine.
With English tech support.
Translated and edited by professionals.
You guys sound like a bunch of entitled douchebags to be totally honest. If a well made 100+ hour game really isn't worth $50 to you, maybe you should re-evaluate your place in the western VN scene. You're effectively paying $10 more than the game is "worth" if that's what really matters to you.
You know, it's a niche market already, maybe we should charge Japanese prices (usually around 9000円, roughly $73) instead for every release since people feel the need to complain about pretty much any pricetag over $35 from what I've seen.
I know this post makes me sound like an asshole, but I'm tired of people screaming for localizations and expecting them to be almost charity work.
This is the first and only PC release in HD.
In a new engine.
With English tech support.
Translated and edited by professionals.
You guys sound like a bunch of entitled douchebags to be totally honest. If a well made 100+ hour game really isn't worth $50 to you, maybe you should re-evaluate your place in the western VN scene. You're effectively paying $10 more than the game is "worth" if that's what really matters to you.
You know, it's a niche market already, maybe we should charge Japanese prices (usually around 9000円, roughly $73) instead for every release since people feel the need to complain about pretty much any pricetag over $35 from what I've seen.
I know this post makes me sound like an asshole, but I'm tired of people screaming for localizations and expecting them to be almost charity work.
How's that attitude working out for you?
...
I wonder why? :/
Also, I hope you realize how many people you just pissed off.
I just don't get how some games get the case of being "special". Well, Fruit of Grisaia is $40 at it's full price on Steam, $10 cheaper, and I've heard just how long that game is. But, it's like the argument with how some 3DS games (by Atlus) get priced $10 more... cause reasons. It's the only company that does it nowadays, but there will always be a side of the argument by many fans as to why it's "okay".
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Honesty I agree with Yuuichi since these are kinda things I've wanted for a long while, but seeing all the price whining when this hobby was much more expensive before is really odd to me.
Basileus777
Member
Most of the people commenting here have already backed the kickstarter, so maybe you should stop jumping to conclusions, especially when you seem to already be aware of how poorly you are coming across. And hell, much of the talk was actually about how this would affect sales, which you know is kind of the point of putting the game on Steam the begin with. As someone who actually pays for fulled priced visual novels, I don't really care to be tarred with your broad generalizations.
The whole Japanese prices angle is not applicable anyway, that's a different market with different expectations. No one buying PC games in the West pays Japanese prices for anything. If you think visual novels are going to be successful trying to emulate Japanese prices, then you're not very educated on how the Steam marketplace works.
Well it wasn't really more expensive before. JAST and MangaGamer were the market and their prices haven't changed much. You can't judge by the import market.
As someone who has spent close to $1000 on VNs in the past year from Kickstarter, it's definitely a market thing and not a specific case of it. I will always back niche stuff, but when it comes to be a case of "this game is special cause ____, thus it'll be $10 than OTHER games" always rubs me the wrong way, and can deter purchases.
(Atlus has done ok though, and at least has pack-ins... IF you buy it on the first run.)
Chairmanchuck
Member
People also want VNs to sell. At a 50$ price tag, many people wont bite.
Look at Cho Dengeki Stryker, that launched at 35$:
http://steamspy.com/app/321190
or Princess Evangeline:
http://steamspy.com/app/344630
No one wanted to buy it at that price, because people still think "its just a VN". The same will happen to Clannad I guess...
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Well considering they both primarily didn't localize the greatest stuff most of the time it's a big limiter in terms of quality. MangaGamer has improved a lot and is taking great care with their non-nukige titles, and Jast is.... well they hired fan translators but they still kinda take forever to release stuff due to business shenanigans or otherwise but they are releasing more quality material than before. Branching out to unofficial translations with imported hard copies was more the norm for an enthusiast before (If they were legit anyways.) Now I understand why people are upset but it just makes me feel like people are being ungrateful from my perspective since I'd never imagine paying that much for a legit copy of a VN I was interested in not too long ago.
I might be wrong if feeling this but I feel the past few years have been pretty great towards western VN fans which I didn't really see coming considering the culture of piracy that formed around it.
Basileus777
Member
Well those sales aren't as bad as you'd think. Evangile was actually actually pretty successful for MangaGamer, but that's because they're a company built to survive at low costs and small sales and a few thousand copies is pretty good for them. But yeah most of the VNs that have done well on Steam have been at price points lower than $10. I'd like full priced VNs to find an audience there, which is actually why the $50 price point is of note, not because I'm too cheap to pay for a game that I've already activated on my Steam account.
Things have been good for Western VN fans in recent years. I just think it's a misread of this thread to equate all the posts that have been done here tonight to petty price whining or douchebaggery. There is a problem with people not wanting to pay full price for visual novels, but a couple of people thinking it'd sell better if it was $40 instead of $50 is not really emblematic of it.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Yeah probably just being a grumpy old person here.
Aside from the fact people clearly don't understand that the metrics that you would traditionally judge sales by can't be used here (10K sales is a fantastic success). Your argument suffers a fatal flaw: both these games are available off steam with an uncensored version. Additionally, both games have or are receiving a hard copy release, which means that the game was not only profitable, but passed some certain arbitrary sales threshold (I don't know exactly how MG works, this is info from a askfm about NTY's hard copy iirc, if you really don't believe me I'll do dig it up) to have that greenlit as well. Visual novels, especially well known, full price titles that are often 30+ hours long have never struck me as something that would be impulse purchased by the average steam user anyways.
Disregarding the fact that steamspy is rather inaccurate below 10k total users, I do believe that Clannad will give a better overall picture of how big, all ages titles sell in the west among the niche that should be buying them in the first place.
I apologize for basically hitting everyone with this, but I've been seeing it all over the place today and I'm kind of fed up with it. I've seen too many people devaluing it simply because it's a visual novel and older, which apparently makes it worth less regardless of length, quality of content, or the new work that went in to this release. Clearly there's a market at this price, though; I asked Payne a few years back how many copies of the S;G LE were made and if memory serves it was 15k (I'd have to go get a twitter archive to fact check this one), and they lasted a few months at most at $60 before they sold out.
I will concede that my comments about Japanese prices were probably unwarranted, but I'm just tired of hearing price complaints all over the place every time something over, like, $30-35 is announced. This has never been nor will ever be a cheap hobby.
Seems like it's going fine, thanks for asking.
If I forgot to cover something or you want me to elaborate I gladly will.
Basileus777
Member
Those would actually include those sales as MangaGamer gives Steam keys when you buy the uncensored version from their website for games that are available on both platforms.
I believe they don't do hard copies for games that sell under 1k, which should tell you how low their cutoff for profitability is.
I share a lot of these frustrations, though the regulars in this thread mostly seem to be people who spend money on this hobby. S:G did really well, though its popularity and accessibility make it an outlier both in the West and Japan. JAST titles generally tend to do well when they get around to releasing them, but the market for full priced visual novels and how much Steam has really grown it is still up in the air. It's why I'd like Clannad to do well outside of the Kickstarter, I don't want to see a future where what we are getting is msotly cheap games hoping to cash in on the Sakura and Nekopara craze.
If you think that Clannad will sell more than 10k with $50 asking price, I have a bridge to sell to you.
Given that the kickstarter ended up with ~2500 Steam keys to give, I'd imagine ~2500 ownership on SteamSpy after first month of sales, especially since SP decided to release the game 3 days before major Steam Sale.
Chairmanchuck
Member
The thing is that Steam and the Steam-sales devalues the prices people want to pay for games general. I wont buy an AC, Koei-Tecmo Game or anything else for 50-60$, so I wont buy a VN for that price (digitally).
If I spend 50-60$ on a VN, I would want it to have a nice physical release with maybe some other things (thats why I backed Clannad at that pricepoint as well as MuvLuv).
I think S:G did well, because of the anime and that it has been released just 3 years after the anime ran.
Clannad on the other hand, while popular in 2007, I am not quite sure how it will do 8 years later (after the anime ran).
This is also something that is kinda "mishandled". A lot of people backed the game and wanted the physical edition, but at a 30-35$ price-tag would buy the digital version. I think right now those will wait for a sale to buy it.
Pellegri Testament
Member
I'm wondering why some of you guys think a lower price point is a bad thing exactly. I buy very few VNs and it's mainly because the price is such a huge turnoff for me. I'm not some super fan that will pay anything to finally play an official version of something, I'm just someone who wants to see what all the noise is about, the same as thousands of others I'm sure. Charging the full $40+ price isn't giving much more than fans what they want, because fans will pay it anyway. VNs are still largely a new market here, new people aren't going to pay that much because the risk is just too high for something that hasn't caught their interest before now.
The market isn't growing by charging those prices here in the West, it's the same people paying those prices while everyone else sits on the sidelines because the price of entry is too high. Wouldn't it be good if the market grew first so that more people could understand why these games are so highly regarded by their fans? Appeasing the fans is nice and all, but you're not gaining anything by doing nothing but appeasing said fans.
The market isn't growing by charging those prices here in the West, it's the same people paying those prices while everyone else sits on the sidelines because the price of entry is too high. Wouldn't it be good if the market grew first so that more people could understand why these games are so highly regarded by their fans? Appeasing the fans is nice and all, but you're not gaining anything by doing nothing but appeasing said fans.
I'll believe your first comment as soon as you prove to me that everyone who got a key that way registered it on steam.
I'm also very sure the cutoff for hard copies is much more than 1k, I'll look into it tomorrow.
Lower price points are not an inherently bad thing, but neither is asking a price to match the product. Honestly I see it as a sort of catch 22. Prices can't really go down on titles because it's such a small market, and people aren't buying games because the prices are too high. There's no magical proof 1000 more people will buy in at $5 less of a price, the only way to show that there's an audience is with your wallet.
I have no problem paying a higher price for a VN when it comes to a physical LE:
For a digital copy though I feel $50 is the wrong price point to start from, especially for something quite older and that isn't exactly a looker. I mean, people feel $30 is too much for a game as big as Trails Second Chapter and that one is pretty big and went through hell and back. I don't expect the general VN buyer to feel much better about $50 for Clannad.
I'm not saying they should have priced it at 30 or lower, but I do feel the first impression and chances for sales would be better at $40.
For a digital copy though I feel $50 is the wrong price point to start from, especially for something quite older and that isn't exactly a looker. I mean, people feel $30 is too much for a game as big as Trails Second Chapter and that one is pretty big and went through hell and back. I don't expect the general VN buyer to feel much better about $50 for Clannad.
I'm not saying they should have priced it at 30 or lower, but I do feel the first impression and chances for sales would be better at $40.
Basileus777
Member
Oh come on, you can't seriously believe there is a substantial audience of people sitting on unused keys that they didn't even bother to give away. Steamspy can reasonably be assumed to account for those sales, the inaccuracy of its sampling when dealing with low sales is the bigger concern.
I'm saying it from memory so it could be off, but I doubt it's much higher.
Likewise. I have MANY MANY games that I purchase throughout the year, and plenty of older, rare titles that are on my wishlist for an eventual purchase. Due to that, I come pretty cheap with DD-only material. I wait for extreme sales, because as I want to support it, I'm doing A LOT of supporting in other ways for niche titles. LE is LE and when they are gone, they are gone for good. Unlike Steam codes. Heck, I got the LE for Amnesia but not the game just yet, because it's not at a pricepoint that I can afford (for digital items). And as I mentioned, I gave away my wallet this year for VN Kicksters.
So that's my personal feels on DD-titles, and I know I'm not the only one with similar priorities.
Pellegri Testament
Member
That's the thing though, $5 off something that's $35-40+ isn't going to turn many new heads, especially when it's new territory for so many people. I'm sure I'll get flak for saying it and be told that I'm undervaluing the original work, but if you want to appeal to a larger audience who hasn't touched a noteworthy VN in their life, you need to look to deeper discounts that will show people that it may be worth risking their money on (as in 50% or more off what they are now).
Could lowering the price that much be for nothing? Sure, but until someone is willing to take that risk with their product, no one will know just how well some of these could potentially sell or if extra buzz is created to get more to notice things. There's no reason why this market should stay with the "elite only" when there's legitimately good VNs out there that few more than the fans know how good they are.
I've seen it mentioned a few times on r/visualnovels and here, but the $50 price tag is mostly for profits. You can't use the argument that they spent a lot of money bringing the title to the West when they raised over half a million dollars on a Kickstarter campaign, almost four times what they were asking just to bring the game overseas.
We don't know if it's Key, Sekai Project or both to blame for the $50 Clannad price tag on Steam, but honestly? I don't care. I'm not willing to pay that much for Clannad, for many reasons, including this being the end of the year and holidays being the most expensive season of the year. Outside of those that were already aware of their Kickstarter campaign last year and pledged for a digital or physical copy, I don't think there are many people left that'd be willing to jump on the game for that price.
We don't know if it's Key, Sekai Project or both to blame for the $50 Clannad price tag on Steam, but honestly? I don't care. I'm not willing to pay that much for Clannad, for many reasons, including this being the end of the year and holidays being the most expensive season of the year. Outside of those that were already aware of their Kickstarter campaign last year and pledged for a digital or physical copy, I don't think there are many people left that'd be willing to jump on the game for that price.
Though I admit that Clannad might be a hard sell at $50, I don't think going around $25 is the price they should go. $35-40 sounds like a sweet spot to me. You shouldn't devaluate the market too much at the beginning, too, or you'll run the risk that once new players start seeing the prices go up, they won't stick around for more because of that.
As for the SteamSpy and MG's numbers, no, I don't think everyone who bought the uncensored game registered the game in Steam. Why? As many of us here like it, you need to remember that there's a part of the internet who hates Steam and they wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Plus, what incentive do I have to register it? Why would I want to go through the game again in a censored version if I already played the uncensored one? Only to have it in my library? Reselling or giving away the key might be an issue here I'm not covering, but I would be surprised if this happened in a big way.
As for the SteamSpy and MG's numbers, no, I don't think everyone who bought the uncensored game registered the game in Steam. Why? As many of us here like it, you need to remember that there's a part of the internet who hates Steam and they wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Plus, what incentive do I have to register it? Why would I want to go through the game again in a censored version if I already played the uncensored one? Only to have it in my library? Reselling or giving away the key might be an issue here I'm not covering, but I would be surprised if this happened in a big way.
R_thanatos
Member
I'll take a shot in the dark and say that the people who really wanted clannad were already responsible for the much successfull kickstarter.
Considering how popular it is , the old timers like us already played it and the steam release is more like a way for it to sell to new audiences. 50$ There is no denying that for the market that use steam, it's too much.
I'll add this ..why is this release be special ? the fact that of it's cult-like status ? the number of word to translate ?
Because by that logic , we need to apply the same reasonning to other releases ..
Yes it's a niche market , but the potential market for sales on steam is MUCH MUCH higher than in japan alone and your exemple on amazon.jp is for a physical release , not a digital one.
So yeah , 50$ is too much. i have nothing against the game, but this price , hell no.too much. Being niche is not an escuse for this price. Eespecially not with digital , especially not with this kickstarter before it. Being a niche market mean that you need to tamper your expectations between the work you're doing and the number of potential buyers.Not the opposite.
Basileus777
Member
It's not a matter of it being everyone, it's a matter of those people sitting on unused keys being statistically significant, which I'm very skeptical of.
Actually, I think there's a better way to find this out.
Someone drop a question about this in MangaGamer's ask.fm account, please xD (Ratio of people who buy the game on their site and amount of people who register said keys in Steam)
Moving to a different topic, I noticed that SP is changing out their forums it looks like? Never was a fan of the old clumped version, so hopefully this will fix up, well something. Always so sad to see it go days and days without new posts, but of course it's understandable why :/
This release is "special" for two major reasons:
It's the second largest game ever released officially in English (and with a very changed translation, the largest game is Grisaia and that did not need the TL update Clannad needed)
It was also rebuilt from the ground up with the HD assets from console, meaning that this is the only way to play the game in HD on PC.
I brought that up because it's something I do, might not be statistically significant but until you can show me either way there's no way to tell.
At this point, how about we revisit this in 3-4 days once the game is released and has some time to sell. We can sit here and speculate all we want but it won't change the reality of what will happen.
Edit: I almost forgot; I noticed this last night, but Princess Evangile has an INSANE attach rate on steam, the average and median time played are four minutes apart.
Yuuichi just shot himself in the foot.
Translation Status Update November 22 from /r/visualnovels
Originally from /jp/ on 4chan
Fuwanovel version
Originally from /jp/ on 4chan
Fuwanovel version
michaelius
Banned
Well Steins;Gate on Vita/PS3 was similar in price and almost impossible to buy due to demand after release.
As long as content is there then that price seems ok.