This doesn't really address Cho's two-faced approach to the situation. If she was upset by Tilda's correspondence, or felt that Tilda had made offensive assumptions, she should have taken the opportunity to say so during their private exchange. How can there be any hope of resolving these complex racial issues when even a well meaning good-faith attempt to have a dialogue is met with false civility and public shaming?
So she can't talk about Asian issues and what it means for her to be an Asian woman within the context of her art without then accepting that that means she know has to be the Asian woman people come to for the "Asian Opinion"
That's a ridiculous burden to put on her.
I am openly trans and my art frequently reflects that but I am not comfortable being the person people automatically seek out for the Trans opinion. Fuck there are like 4 or 5 people that only know me as the person they can talk to about trans issues (and this includes other trans people) like the entire sum of my relationship with them is that "trans person they can talk to", nothing more. I do it because I don't want to be an asshole but it's stressful sometimes and somewhat dehumanizing on a certain level. So to say that being open about your issues as a minority means you have to now be responsible for providing everyone who asks the "Minority point of view" is brutally unfair.
She's the best part of the movie. And it's a good movie.Tilda Swinton keeps being one of my favorite persons ever, had no idea she was in Dr Strange so now I will watch the movie
Sounds like projection. I'm not sure she could have phrased her messages in a way that wouldn't set off people who are primed to find fault in a certain type of person trying to discuss a certain type of subject. She bent over backwards to be respectful and she still got raked over the coals.Swinton's mails very much read like "Just asking questions", "Well, actually..." and "some of my best friends are asian/I make movies with asians".
The New York leader was African.I guess I don't know enough about Dr. Strange comics,but why is mystic arts or magic seemingly Asian culture? Wasn't one of the pillars in London? I think of ancient England as where wizards and Dragons lived from stories as a kid. The ancient one in the movie was from there. The Hong Kong leader was Asian, I don't remember who the New York leader was.
White people who want to be absolved of any guilt by a random person of color are way way way worse then anything cho did.
Would it have been so impossible to cast an Asian women and not been an oversexed Dragon Lady?
Cho is 100% in the wrong, and I feel bad for Swinton, but I have no reason to believe Hollywood or the producers gave a shit about racial issues. The excuse is weird.
Er, whitewashing has been the far more prominent issue in movies recently. Obviously, money means pleasing the Chinese public and using a wellknown white actress moat of the time. Asian Americans are a tiny minority. Hence Hollywood not caring.I think they care about receiving criticism for racist stereotypes and also that they wanted to have the movie shown in China.
I believe there were multiple motivations to the casting choice.
She's the best part of the movie. And it's a good movie.
Sounds like projection. I'm not sure she could have phrased her messages in a way that wouldn't set off people who are primed to find fault in a certain type of person trying to discuss a certain type of subject. She bent over backwards to be respectful and she still got raked over the coals.
The entire first message?Where is the point where she bent over backwards to be respectful?
Well; at the very least I have to agree with Swinton that the mature character being a woman, who is older, non-sexualized, without a cliche personality, and is also the most bad-assed force in the story, is genuinely significant. It really did elevate the movie a bit IMO.
No, what Cho wanted was not really for Swinton to "get it", she essentially wanted her to quit the role. Cho didn't even bother looking up what the role was.
This whole discussion ends up as a snake eating itself every time. You would think that Tilda Swintons choice would be a victory for the diversity proponents for all the reasons that Kai Dracon listed, but there is ALWAYS a group out there that says "well why wasnt a ::insert nationality/race:: ::insert gender:: cast for that part?" There is no pleasing people in this regard.
Also its quite hilarious that Swinton reaches out to have a discussion about this issue and try to move the conversation forward in a meaningful way only to have Cho totally characterize the whole exchange as Swington using Cho as a "house asian".
"Asian actors should play Asian roles" is another choice quote by Cho. So Im going to assume by that logic that she must have a problem with shows like Hamilton?
This whole discussion ends up as a snake eating itself every time. You would think that Tilda Swintons choice would be a victory for the diversity proponents for all the reasons that Kai Dracon listed, but there is ALWAYS a group out there that says "well why wasnt a ::insert nationality/race:: ::insert gender:: cast for that part?" There is no pleasing people in this regard.
Also its quite hilarious that Swinton reaches out to have a discussion about this issue and try to move the conversation forward in a meaningful way only to have Cho totally characterize the whole exchange as Swington using Cho as a "house asian".
"Asian actors should play Asian roles" is another choice quote by Cho. So Im going to assume by that logic that she must have a problem with shows like Hamilton?
In the same Hollywood where atrocities like Gods of Egypt and Exodus:G&K can happen Marvel movies do seem like shining bastions. It took forever for the Marvel comics to have more diversity amongst their primary pantheon of heroes so I never really expected them to start the MCU with the modern takes on them. I'm really happy with the vast majority of choices the MCU has made with both casting and depictions of PoC and women in their films which is hard for me to say about any other major studio/franchise right now.Where are you getting the ALWAYS a group out there doing this? White male actors seem to be doing well with the roles they get in Hollywood.
And for all those who are saying Marvel has progressive movie castings, how many movies have we gone through with white male leads until we get our first minority lead? I mean, I like Marvel movies too, but let's not hold them up to be a bastion of progressiveness that is championing diversity.
The entire first message?
This whole discussion ends up as a snake eating itself every time. You would think that Tilda Swintons choice would be a victory for the diversity proponents for all the reasons that Kai Dracon listed, but there is ALWAYS a group out there that says "well why wasnt a ::insert nationality/race:: ::insert gender:: cast for that part?" There is no pleasing people in this regard.
Also its quite hilarious that Swinton reaches out to have a discussion about this issue and try to move the conversation forward in a meaningful way only to have Cho totally characterize the whole exchange as Swington using Cho as a "house asian".
"Asian actors should play Asian roles" is another choice quote by Cho. So Im going to assume by that logic that she must have a problem with shows like Hamilton?
If Cho hadn't engaged, we would've been seeing a parade of "well how are race relations gonna get better if the minorities don't engage!!" instead.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...
This is what the exchange sounds like.
Sounds like Swinton understands Cho's frustrations which is why she approached her in the first place.
Cho just wanted to use her as a punching bag for the frustrations of Asians in Hollywood after the fact.
nope, we never would have heard about this since cho is the one that brought it up
That was the case with the role anyway.If Cho hadn't engaged, we would've been seeing a parade of "well how are race relations gonna get better if the minorities don't engage!!" instead.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't...
Tilda is like. i understand white washing is a thing. Its a thing im perpetuating by taking this role. Can i talk to you so i feel better because i did a bullshit token grab at equality.
That was the case with the role anyway.
Cast Asian in Asian stereotype role, brings up issues.
Don't cast Asian in the Asian stereotype role, brings different issues.
Its a lose lose in all cases. Then the would have been major issues if the role was still Tibetan.
Personally I think it should have been kept the way it was in the books, an old Tibetan Asian dude
What shows like Hamilton? Are white people suffering from a lack of representation on Broadway or in Hollywood? You think the two situations are equivalent?
More white women isn't the end-all and be-all of diversity.
How do you do the Ancient One that isnt a stereotype? You'd have to remove most of what the character is and also the Tibetan part(which was done anyway).Or, you know, Asian in non-stereotypical Asian role.
That was the case with the role anyway.
Cast Asian in Asian stereotype role, brings up issues.
Don't cast Asian in the Asian stereotype role, brings different issues.
Its a lose lose in all cases. Then the would have been major issues if the role was still Tibetan.
Personally I think it should have been kept the way it was in the books, an old Tibetan Asian dude
What I mean is that going by her logic, that only people of the same ethic origin can only play characters of the same origin, then thats an argument against plays like Hamilton (Which Ive been told is amazing largely because it bucks this type of thinking).
Never said they were, you are missing the point.
No need to make it a stereotype no matter how lousy the original material is.
The Tibetan is problematic is a asspull.
Why is Chiwetel Ejiofor in this and not an Asian actor in that role? He was also in the Martian playing a character that was Asian in the book. I find it kinda racist, how Hollywood thinks adding a black person in anything is the end all for diversity.
im with Cho here. seems like a really weird thing to do, just email this person at random, like she is a representative of all asians everywhere. is the role problematic? you can rewrite it to not be.
In the same Hollywood where atrocities like Gods of Egypt and Exodus:G&K can happen Marvel movies do seem like shining bastions. It took forever for the Marvel comics to have more diversity amongst their primary pantheon of heroes so I never really expected them to start the MCU with the modern takes on them. I'm really happy with the vast majority of choices the MCU has made with both casting and depictions of PoC and women in their films which is hard for me to say about any other major studio/franchise right now.
My point is that giving a white woman the role of an Asian character is not a "victory" for diversity. Exclusion and whitewashing should never be.
How do you do the Ancient One that isnt a stereotype? You'd have to remove most of what the character is and also the Tibetan part(which was done anyway).
As others have said, then people would probably claim that its the typical "asian mystic" trope. The creators recognized this and went as far away from that as possible and its still an issue to some.
Yeah at the end of the day I don't know what Swinton expected from the exchange. To be told that she's not perpetuating white washing? Was there any way she would have ended that exchange with "You're right. It's bullshit. I can't leave/speak out about the role because of contracts, but if the same situation comes up again I will refuse and point them towards Asian actors who should be in the role instead."Tilda is like. i understand white washing is a thing. Its a thing im perpetuating by taking this role. Can i talk to you so i feel better because i did a bullshit token grab at equality.
The basis for the character is an old Tibetan mystic who teachs Strange. Give me an example of how you would do this without making it a completely different character.I don't think doing an Asian non-cliched version of the Ancient One is too hard, no. To think so points to a severe lack of imagination.
Yeah at the end of the day I don't know what Swinton expected from the exchange. To be told that she's not perpetuating white washing? Was there any way she would have ended that exchange with "You're right. It's bullshit. I can't leave/speak out about the role because of contracts, but if the same situation comes up again I will refuse and point them towards Asian actors who should be in the role instead."
no.1 - when a person wants to understand more about how the minority experience is, is there a way to adress it that wont offend a person of said minority?
there is no line. you are always giving your own opinion and the opinion of the race as a whole simultaneously and the other person in the conversation will choose which of the two is acceptable to them after you say it.2 - when a minority person is approached by a white person to talk about race, or when race comes up in conversation, how can the line be drawn between them giving their opinion vs them feeling like they are representing the race? It seems here Tilda was asking for CHo's opinion no the backlash, not asking for validation.. Where is the line that says Cho's interpretation and what Tilda meant are two different things?
The basis for the character is an old Tibetan mystic who teachs Strange. Give me an example of how you would do this without making it a completely different character.
Marvel is a studio that that will star 17 consecutive blockbusters with super white men, which is all that needs to be said when it comes to their casting decisions. Tilda and Co. come across as out of touch to put it politely.
nope, we never would have heard about this since cho is the one that brought it up
What I mean is that going by her logic, that only people of the same ethic origin can only play characters of the same origin, then thats an argument against plays like Hamilton (Which Ive been told is amazing largely because it bucks this type of thinking).
Never said they were, you are missing the point.