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[Lumination]

It's ok to be Asian and not want to have that responsibility that Swinton asked of Cho. She could have politely refused. It's NOT ok to pretend to have a pleasant conversation with someone with the best intentions and then angrily reveal this shit behind Swinton's back.

Regardless of the context of the situation, that's just a shitty human thing to do.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I like Swinton in the movie and she is right that some of these old comic boock characters are very stereotypical and wouldn't play well in this day and age.

That said, someone like Namor should go to an Asian or Asian American actor. And Mulan shouldn't even be a question of what ethnicity the actress needs to be.

It's actually funny, I never really considered what race or ethnicity Namor would be. I guess white, because he's got that elfin thing, but they could go the Aquaman way and have him be some Pacific Asian and it would seem to fit.

The Ancient One could have been a respectable asian male/female leader thats a genuinely likable and compelling character. Its frustrating.

Just straight up whitewashing and changing the gender to try to avoid controversy isn't a real solution.

Face it head on and fix the problem, make the character better/improve them. Don't create a different problem.

I definitely agree. I don't think it would have been hard to make The Ancient One an old asian guy without it coming off as a complete stereotype; simply not having him be incredibly frail and always in need of saving solves most of the problems with his character from the comics right then and there. The wise asian guy will never *stop* being a terrible trope unless people try to write those characters well and there's broader diversity of roles for asians, anyhow, so even at best you're not actually helping solve the problem.

The acquiescing to politics is another matter entirely, but they could have easily left the country in question nameless, or even just made the Ancient one chinese to totally pander, or whatever.

It's ok to be Asian and not want to have that responsibility that Swinton asked of Cho.

Yeah, but... if you're constantly making noise on social media about this stuff, I don't think you get to act all offended when people ask you about it. It'd be like Shaun King getting offended someone went to him to understand more about racial bias in policing, when he's pretty much the most public face of Black Lives Matter. That's kind of what people expect of you. If you were completely divorced from the public eye Cho would have a point... but she's not, and she doesn't.

 

[hodayathink]

It really isn't though...

Swapping one minority role for another doesn't add anything really as far as diversity is concerned...

I guess that's the crux of the beef a lot of people seemed to have with this film in that regard...

Which is kinda silly because this movie is Marvel specifically trying to be as diverse as they have ever been, between rewriting Wong to get rid of the other stereotyped role, and changing Mordo from white to black, and adding a female character in that hierarchy where there was none before. You can complain that they didn't go far enough since they whitewashed the Ancient One, but this (and Spider-Man Homecoming, too) is what diversity within Marvel looks like.

Also, and I don't think this is a coincidence, those two movies, Black Panther, and Thor: Ragnarok are the first movies that Feige has been able to cast without Perlmutter behind him, and all of them are more diverse than the movies before he broke free.

 

[Stinkles]

I don't like the individual issues at play here but I do like that an entire industry is being forced to examine a problem of its own making and understand that there are external effects.

 

[Lumination]

Yeah, but... if you're constantly making noise on social media about this stuff, I don't think you get to act all offended when people ask you about it. It'd be like Shaun King getting offended someone went to him to understand more about racial bias in policing, when he's pretty much the most public face of Black Lives Matter. That's kind of what people expect of you. If you were completely divorced from the public eye Cho would have a point... but she's not, and she doesn't.

Welp. If that's the case then yeah, add "hypocrite" on top of the other things. I was wondering why she randomly decided to contact Cho about it. Yeah, she's just a complete dick then.

 

[Slurpy2k20]

No patience to read this entire thread, but:

1- Why the fuck were these emails made public? Nobody can have assurances of a private conversation anymore?
2- Isn't this conversation better suited to a phone conversation, in which people can drive their points 10X as fast? I really don't get these long, drawn out email exchanges about deep issues. Just share your damn numbers and hash it out by phone.

 

[old manatee]

No patience to read this entire thread, but:

1- Why the fuck were these emails made public? Nobody can have assurances of a private conversation anymore?
2- Isn't this conversation better suited to a phone conversation, in which people can drive their points 10X as fast? I really don't get these long, drawn out email exchanges about deep issues. Just share your damn numbers and hash it out by phone.

Swinton made them public after Cho misrepresented their content.

 

[Lumination]

No patience to read this entire thread, but:

1- Why the fuck were these emails made public? Nobody can have assurances of a private conversation anymore?
2- Isn't this conversation better suited to a phone conversation, in which people can drive their points 10X as fast? I really don't get these long, drawn out email exchanges about deep issues. Just share your damn numbers and hash it out by phone.

1. Because Cho was a dick, talked about her private discussion, and painted Swinton in a bad light, forcing Swinton to release the private emails to save her image.

2. People are busy. No one wants to commit to an hour long phone conversation with someone they've never talked to before and about a volatile topic that has the potential to veer into emotions running high at any moment.

 

[Monochromaticx]

"pretty strange she told me not to tell anyone
but i need some attention so ill post these emails publicly "
good job cho

 

[Bionic]

No patience to read this entire thread, but:

1- Why the fuck were these emails made public? Nobody can have assurances of a private conversation anymore?
2- Isn't this conversation better suited to a phone conversation, in which people can drive their points 10X as fast? I really don't get these long, drawn out email exchanges about deep issues. Just share your damn numbers and hash it out by phone.

No patience to read your entire post, but:

1- Ducks are pretty much the best pets
2- Probably, like, six or so?

Spoiler

The first paragraph of the article in the OP lays out why they were made public.

 

[Vyer]

So unless I missed it, i really didn't see Cho's comments in the thread. I was curious because there wasn't much context to them so I looked it up. apologies if this was already posted.

In any case, here's what I found:

"Tilda eventually emailed me and she said that she didn't understand why people were so mad about Doctor Strange and she wanted to talk about it, and wanted to get my take on why all the Asian people were mad,” Cho told actor Bobby Lee on his podcast TigerBelly. “It was so weird.”

It's hard to fault Swinton for wanting to become more educated on why her casting was deemed offensive. But the tone, indicates Cho, was off.

“It was a long fight about why the part should not have gone to her," said Cho, adding that Swinton defended herself by saying she recently produced a film by a famous South Korean director. Cho said Swinton seemed to suggest telling the Asian community to back off the criticism.

At the conclusion of a "long discussion," Cho says Swinton told her not to “tell anybody" about their discussion.

“It was weird because I felt like a house Asian, like I'm her servant,” said Cho. “Like the ones when they have in the (British) raj, they would have the house servant who was your confidante … The servant that was close to you. That's sort of what I felt like, like I was following her with an umbrella. I had a weird feeling about the entire exchange, especially the part of Don't tell anybody."

 

[Slurpy2k20]

No patience to read your entire post, but:

1- Ducks are pretty much the best pets
2- Probably, like, six or so?

Spoiler

The first paragraph of the article in the OP lays out why they were made public.

My bad, read the 1st post carefully. I'm 100% with Tilda here. Can't stand when you initiate a private conversation with the best of intentions, open yourself up, and then being shit-talked about and misrepresented by the other person, who assumes they can get away with it because the conversation won't be revealed, even though they didn't even HINT at whatever the hell they end up saying about you, to your face.

Tilda was right to release the emails and clear her name of any doubts. Cho forced her hand, and her own integrity was more important than the agreement they had.

 

[D4Danger]

This is like the definition of having a chip on your shoulder. She obviously wasn't expecting someone to publish the emails and totally expose her.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Wasn't the main reason because they didn't want to offend China?

That to me is absurd.

Swinton was okay though, but the adventure of venturing to the far east, felt a bit subdued since only one of the notable characters were asian. The rest were in the background.

 

[Blackthorn]

Fuck anyone who shares a conversation that was explicitly private. This is gossip-mongering, and I permanently cut off anyone who ever does this sort of shit to me.

Tilda could've said despicable shit in those emails (which she didn't) and Cho would still be an asshole for copy and pasting it.

 

[Hilbert]

I don't see the "you can tell me to fuck off" as inviting and polite. To me, that is basically saying "if you don't want to talk to me, basically you are telling me to fuck off". It can be a manipulating tactic to get people to do what you want, no one wants to tell someone who is outwardly polite to fuck off. I can definitely see how that could make Cho uncomfortable, but feel like she had to respond.

I am not saying that is what happened, but I think people pointing to that section out might not be seeing it in all ways.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I don't see the "you can tell me to fuck off" as inviting and polite. To me, that is basically saying "if you don't want to talk to me, basically you are telling me to fuck off". It can be a manipulating tactic to get people to do what you want, no one wants to tell someone who is outwardly polite to fuck off. I can definitely how that could make Cho uncomfortable, but feel like she had to respond.

I am not saying that is what happened, but I think people pointing to that section out might not be seeing it in all ways.

Swinton was obviously just being playful.

There can be such a thing as being over-analytical.

 

[Fantastical]

Fuck anyone who shares a conversation that was explicitly private. This is gossip-mongering, and I permanently cut off anyone who ever does this sort of shit to me.

Tilda could've said despicable shit in those emails (which she didn't) and Cho would still be an asshole for copy and pasting it.

Cho did not copy and paste it. She talked about it on a podcast (and lied). Swinton released the emails to clear her name.

 

[Vyer]

This is like the definition of having a chip on your shoulder. She obviously wasn't expecting someone to publish the emails and totally expose her.

I don't really think she was 'exposed'. But she definitely misread the tone of the emails.

After having seen her comments in context, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to see how she might make that mistake.

and ultimately Tilda really didn't say anything other than the stock answer that MCU has already given...which there is definitely an argument against.

 

[Stinkles]

So she can't talk about Asian issues and what it means for her to be an Asian woman within the context of her art without then accepting that that means she know has to be the Asian woman people come to for the "Asian Opinion"

That's a ridiculous burden to put on her.

I am openly trans and my art frequently reflects that but I am not comfortable being the person people automatically seek out for the Trans opinion. Fuck there are like 4 or 5 people that only know me as the person they can talk to about trans issues (and this includes other trans people) like the entire sum of my relationship with them is that "trans person they can talk to", nothing more. I do it because I don't want to be an asshole but it's stressful sometimes and somewhat dehumanizing on a certain level. So to say that being open about your issues as a minority means you have to now be responsible for providing everyone who asks the "Minority point of view" is brutally unfair.

I'm LITERALLY just refeerring to Cho's expertise on whitewashing and race and gender politics. It's 80% of her whole act. So she stood out, correctly as someone with insight into those issues, and is in the same "club" as Swinton. So Swinton probably says to her agent - can you get me in touch with Margaret, she has some insight here - as you or I might with an expert in our field that we had access to. It's not like she wandered down to Chinatown and asked the first asian person she encountered. She plainly put a lot of thought, stress and worry into this issue - and instead of commending the effort, we're dragging her around like a bag of trash.

There's ZERO doubt that Cho infered the conversation was private. I mean, look at it.

So here we are: Hollywood is whitewashing stuff.

Someone with influence actually tries to influence, discuss or figure it our from a sympathetic and thoughtful perspective, and they get outed by another actor for behaving in the opposite way they intended to.

I have rarely seen a more cut and dry topic on gaf. And Cho could have told the same story anonymously. "A famous actor called me about an ostensibly racist casting choice..."


This is about Cho's personal behavior, not the umbrella problem - a problem which Swinton acknowledged and in a way available to her - tried to further understand.


Cho has a platform to talk about this stuff already. And is hugely successful at it. She doesn't need to pull this shit. She's already alienated folks because of her stance on weight vascillating over the last decade or two.


CAVEAT: I love both performers. I'm as white as The Ancient One, but about 95% of my remaining family is Chinese and Taiwanese.

 

[Foggy]

Cho's always been a bit of an asshole

 

[Kinyou]

Wasn't the main reason because they didn't want to offend China?

That to me is absurd.

Swinton was okay though, but the adventure of venturing to the far east, felt a bit subdued since only one of the notable characters were asian. The rest were in the background.

Having an Asian man would probably have been too close to the Dalai Lama and China would have been likely to ban the movie. Not sure what would have happened if it had been an Asian woman.

What I could also imagine is that the movie studios aren't directly working with the Chinese censors but are working more off assumptions which then could lead them to playing it unnecessarily safe.

 

[kmfdmpig]

So she can't talk about Asian issues and what it means for her to be an Asian woman within the context of her art without then accepting that that means she know has to be the Asian woman people come to for the "Asian Opinion"

That's a ridiculous burden to put on her.

I am openly trans and my art frequently reflects that but I am not comfortable being the person people automatically seek out for the Trans opinion. Fuck there are like 4 or 5 people that only know me as the person they can talk to about trans issues (and this includes other trans people) like the entire sum of my relationship with them is that "trans person they can talk to", nothing more. I do it because I don't want to be an asshole but it's stressful sometimes and somewhat dehumanizing on a certain level. So to say that being open about your issues as a minority means you have to now be responsible for providing everyone who asks the "Minority point of view" is brutally unfair.

I agree with what you're saying in general as that type of thing can be a significant problem in many fields. In higher education, for example, one of the challenges is that there is insufficient diversity among professors. One of the issues that exacerbates that is that many of the minority professors feel pressure to speak on behalf of their entire race which can be a tremendous burden.

In this particular case though Swinton went out of her way to give Cho an out if she did not want to engage in discussion of the topic: "I would really love to hear your thoughts and have a - private - conversation about it. Are you up for this? Can we e-mail?

No wrong answer here. Tell me to fuck off if you feel like it. In any and every case,
Much love to you,"

If Cho didn't want to engage, or felt that engaging would make her a "house Asian" she should have declined. She chose to respond and seemed enthusiastic to do so with exclamation points, and comments such as "Anyway - hope this helps! We can totally email and we can be private!"

It's plain shitty to have this conversation and then use it to try to humiliate Swinton after the fact.

 

[Spikematic]

Wow, those emails totally exposed Cho for the two-faced person that she is. They had a perfectly polite and respectful correspondence and then Cho decides to make a fuss about it only to be exposed like this. She's really not helping the cause she is seemingly championing with such gusto.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

I don't really understand the house Asian comment, surely Margeret Cho focussing on race/sexuality issues through her carreer had some leverage in Tilda Swinton choosing to ask her the question. And not just the fact that she was Asian?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

.
Everyone hates being the token.

It's hardly tokenizing to reach out to someone who's at the forefront of a media conversation. It's not like she picked some random Asian actor out of a hat.

Welp. If that's the case then yeah, add "hypocrite" on top of the other things. I was wondering why she randomly decided to contact Cho about it. Yeah, she's just a complete dick then.

It's 100% the case. It wasn't random.

Let's note the timeline here. The emails date to May 13. The hashtag movement #WhitewashedOut started on May 1. And who was behind that movement? Well one of the progenitors was none other than Margaret Cho.

And who got mention in many of the articles and tweets regarding the movement? None other than Tilda Swinton: http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/03/media/whitewashedout-asians-in-hollywood/

Of course she would contact her. It makes perfect sense. To say nothing of the fact that we have no clue if she contacted other people from the movement!

I don't see the "you can tell me to fuck off" as inviting and polite. To me, that is basically saying "if you don't want to talk to me, basically you are telling me to fuck off". It can be a manipulating tactic to get people to do what you want, no one wants to tell someone who is outwardly polite to fuck off. I can definitely see how that could make Cho uncomfortable, but feel like she had to respond.

I am not saying that is what happened, but I think people pointing to that section out might not be seeing it in all ways.

This is literally reading into something that's not there. It's obviously playful, and it's an incredibly British-Scottish thing to say.

 

[Toxi]

If Margaret Cho had a problem being contacted, she should have asked Tilda Swinton to talk to someone else.

 

[Hilbert]

This is literally reading into something that's not there. It's obviously playful, and it's an incredibly British-Scottish thing to say.

Is margret cho british scottish?

I am just saying, if someone said that to me, I would feel obligated, and slightly resentful about it. Especially as a minority if I were asked about minority issues.

 

[boiled goose]

Here's the problem: as that role was written for this movie, casting an Asian woman in that role doesn't suddenly transform the character into a Dragon Lady. They continue to frame the argument as if being Asian in an Asian role is the problem. Clueless.

Yeah. Comes off as whitesplaining.

At least marvel is thinking about diversity.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Just saw Dr Strange last night.

I knew near zero about the character besides the awful costume and him having cosmic/mystical powers.

I was surprised that The Ancient One was a white woman from the UK whom I have seen in Benjamin Button and Narnia. Was not expected, but she CRUSHES that role. Her acting raised the bar in a Marvel film that only James Spader as Ultron compares.

Reading the OP, as a minority, I would normally agree with Cho, and the mention of Scarjo in Ghost in the Shell elevated my blood pressure. HOWEVER, Swinton's explanation of avoiding the Tiger Woman stereotype, recognizing the comic book's origins of the Fu Man Chu stereotype, the mention of Karl Mordo being a black man in the movie rather than a Transylvanian like in thecomics, and her harangue against white men as the status quo is a much stronger case for progressivism than any speech Emma Watson has given.

Impressive. I am convinced.

 

[Ahiru77]

It's ok to be Asian and not want to have that responsibility that Swinton asked of Cho. She could have politely refused. It's NOT ok to pretend to have a pleasant conversation with someone with the best intentions and then angrily reveal this shit behind Swinton's back.

Regardless of the context of the situation, that's just a shitty human thing to do.

It's indeed a very opportunistic and conniving move on Cho's part.

Very disappointed in her personally.

 

[Lord Panda]

Cho was on point and I agree with everything she said in her emails, but she's a huge asshole for calling Swinton out in the way she did. Swinton was very genteel and thoughtful in her correspondence with Cho.

 

[.JayZii]

Cho really took the "Tell me to fuck off if you feel like it. In any and every case" part to heart, and opted for the long tail fuck you maneuver.

Not a good look.

 

[Oersted]

Just saw Dr Strange last night.

I knew near zero about the character besides the awful costume and him having cosmic/mystical powers.

I was surprised that The Ancient One was a white woman from the UK whom I have seen in Benjamin Button and Narnia. Was not expected, but she CRUSHES that role. Her acting raised the bar in a Marvel film that only James Spader as Ultron compares.

Reading the OP, as a minority, I would normally agree with Cho, and the mention of Scarjo in Ghost in the Shell elevated my blood pressure. HOWEVER, Swinton's explanation of avoiding the Tiger Woman stereotype, recognizing the comic book's origins of the Fu Man Chu stereotype, the mention of Karl Mordo being a black man in the movie rather than a Transylvanian like in thecomics, and her harangue against white men as the status quo is a much stronger case for progressivism than any speech Emma Watson has given.

Impressive. I am convinced.

Whitewashing is justified because the alternative would be a racist caricature.

Using particulars to defend institutionialized racism. Thread went as expected.

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

On the Ancient One. Huge Doctor

Spoiler

She's was fine. Tilda didn't really make impression on me.Didn't really cared that she died

Whitewashing is justified because the alternative would be a racist caricature.

Using particulars to defend institutionialized racism. Thread went as expected.

Yeah I really seems like this argument is lost on people. Not Asian myself but I can actually see why people still feel that Asian people and people in general are upset because people wanna take negative stereotypes and change them to something better.

 

[Glass Rebel]

There was nothing in the Ancient One's writing/characterization that would have made her a Dragon Lady by casting an Asian woman. That was entirely in the head of the people working on the movie. I recently rewatched House of Flying Daggers and was thinking Zhang Ziyi, while not an actress of the calibre of Tilda Swinton, would have made a great Ancient One as well. Tilda was fantastic but you could tell they wanted her from the beginning.

 

[Oersted]

On the Ancient One. Huge Doctor

Spoiler

She's was fine. Tilda didn't really make impression on me.Didn't really cared that she died

Yeah I really seems like this argument is lost on people. Not Asian myself but I can actually see why people still feel that Asian people and people in general are upset because people wanna take negative stereotypes and change them to something better.

It is not neccessarily a case of turning a stereotype into something better, the starting point is that asian don't get roles, even when the original character,either fictious or nonfictious, is asian.

You would think it is rather easy to grasp, but given how most were just invested in insulting Cho...

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Is margret cho british scottish?

I am just saying, if someone said that to me, I would feel obligated, and slightly resentful about it. Especially as a minority if I were asked about minority issues.

I find it hardly to believe that a well traveled public figure like Margaret Cho has never come into contact with Brits, Scots or Aussies that speak like that.

But yeah, sure I guess it's possible that as an American she's never heard that phraseology. Unlikely, but yeah. Possible.

 

[Stinkles]

Is margret cho british scottish?

I am just saying, if someone said that to me, I would feel obligated, and slightly resentful about it. Especially as a minority if I were asked about minority issues.

She knows exactly how it was intended. And that expression and variants of it are used in the States.


If we're narrowing her behavior down to a reaction to that semnatic then we're ignoring everything else Cho herself has said about it.

Cho threw an ally under a bus to further a cause and had every opportunuty not to.

 

[Bold One]

I loved her as Kim Jong Un in 30 Rock

shame

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Jeez, what was Cho thinking? That Swinton would happily allow Cho to throw her under the bus and not reveal the truth? Jeepers.

 

[BorkBork]

NPR: When Swinton And Cho Talk Race, The Point's Lost In Translation

 

[excelsiorlef]

NPR: When Swinton And Cho Talk Race, The Point's Lost In Translation

This is bang on.

 

[Monocle]

NPR: When Swinton And Cho Talk Race, The Point's Lost In Translation

This doesn't really address Cho's two-faced approach to the situation. If she was upset by Tilda's correspondence, or felt that Tilda had made offensive assumptions, she should have taken the opportunity to say so during their private exchange. How can there be any hope of resolving these complex racial issues when even a well meaning good-faith attempt to have a dialogue is met with false civility and public shaming?

 

[Count Dookkake]

Lol at the idea that Cho would be confused by Swinton's intent with the bit about telling her to fuck off, or that said bit is somehow unique to brit humor.

That is seriously impressive reach.

 

[Oddish1]

This doesn't really address Cho's two-faced approach to the situation. If she was upset by Tilda's correspondence, or felt that Tilda had made offensive assumptions, she should have taken the opportunity to say so during their private exchange. How can there be any hope of resolving these complex racial issues when even a well meaning good-faith attempt to have a dialogue is met with false civility and public shaming?

The entire article is literally about addressing that.

 

[faridmon]

White supporting actors got bigger.

The black lead got smaller.

The Hispanic guy got removed.

This is the most ridiculous post I have seen in a while. Posters change from one country to another. Actors get swapped, even famous ones will sometime not be there.

I loved her as Kim Jong Un in 30 Rock

shame

Meh, this doesn't change my view on both women to be fair. They are still great and love them.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

NPR: When Swinton And Cho Talk Race, The Point's Lost In Translation

That's nice and all but going on a podcast and misrepresenting the exchange as she did disparages Swinton's character, which is a shitty thing to do and undermines any point she was trying to make.

 

[teacupcopter]

NPR: When Swinton And Cho Talk Race, The Point's Lost In Translation

This is a good link. It makes me wonder though- like it's true that you can defend many individual cases, we need to broaden the conversation but at the same time attacking those same individual cases sheds light on the issue- and of course will bring a defence along with it. :/ difficult issue to deal with. I wish Hollywood would just bite the bullet and start casting more diverse to show people will watch it.

 

[Krauser Kat]

That's nice and all but going on a podcast and misrepresenting the exchange as she did disparages Swinton's character, which is a shitty thing to do and undermines any point she was trying to make.

White people who want to be absolved of any guilt by a random person of color are way way way worse then anything cho did.

"What I think Swinton wanted from Cho was some kind of exculpation. What Cho wanted was for Swinton to "get it."