Support NeoGAF

[JordanN]

It was plenty powerful and the PS2 even though it came like 15 months later (JP launch) didn't really succeed in its emotion engine bs talk until waaaay later. Not that Dreamcast could have kept up with all the games in any scope but it could have held its own with exclusives suited to it to take advantage of its strengths.

Dead or Alive 2 is not a good comparison. Or rather, the history is messy.

The PS2 version was shipped when the developers were still working on it. It wasn't actually suppose to be released in its unfinished form.

Even game devs get the blues: How Armageddon saved Tomonobu Itagaki

After a mistake caused an early version of Dead or Alive 2 to see wide release …

arstechnica.com

 

[Alexios]

Why snip the quote? It holds its own with the Hardcore version but it's certainly a heavily revised edition that's better. Who knows what would have happened if they could have launched another update on Dreamcast, the Japanese release that came later than the Western was already improved and it's not like Itagaki would have waited that long to release the game for the initial PS2 launch to be on the level of Hardcore. Similar results can be seen in many other games too, like Grandia 2, I just can't find good footage that shows the crazy difference in aliasing and stuff. I dunno about Code Veronica, that probably fares better, but still, another great looking game of that generation Dreamcast had no issues with. I refrained from using SEGA games ports even though there are plenty that came after the Dreamcast died since those could be seen as deliberately not improved as much as they could be on PS2 or something. Anyway, the competition came 15 months + later or even way more for other systems so of course it did some things better but that's like saying 1080ti wasn't powerful because 2080ti come around later. It was a great system with many pretty games.

 

[recma12]

DC looked really good when it came out because the other options on the market were PS1 and N64 tbh
I owned a DC and later a PS2 and when it comes to the visuals, the difference wasn't that big.

IMO hardware had nothing to do with the DCs demise. Wasn't like PS2 killed them on that front.
DC could have survived longer if the game calatogue was more varied (too many arcade ports) and had a DVD player. Plain and simple.

Dreamcast was like the perfect console to put in a kiosk at the mall and wow people.
But PS2 was the better "daily use over multiple years" console.

 

[Romulus]

Dunno, maybe its the nostalgia talking but i never found the early 3D titles such as Mario 64 and Waverace ugly. Or Wipeout on the Playstation which was the first 5th gen i played up close. This jump will always be the biggest IMO.

I think there were standouts like those but overall it's the worst aged generation. I have been playing wave race on my modded xbox, and just 720p alone makes that look as good as most any dreamcast game. That's an anomaly though.

 

[cireza]

It was plenty powerful and the PS2 even though it came like 15 months later (JP launch) didn't really succeed in its emotion engine bs talk until waaaay later. Not that Dreamcast could have kept up with all the games in any scope but it could have held its own with exclusives suited to it to take advantage of its strengths.

We don't know the full extent of the console's capabilities as it was short lived. While Saturn had a pretty decent lifespan, and I believe, demonstrated quite well what it could do (with only Virtua Fighter 3 being the game that could have pushed a bit more), Dreamcast did not have this opportunity.

It is pretty clear that the console would have gotten games like HOTD3, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Outrun 2, Jet Set Radio Future, Gun Valyrie etc... All these games that made it to Xbox would have been on Dreamcast. And Virtua Fighter 4 as well. They would have looked different that's for sure, but there is no reason the console would have not been able to handle them, with its clean graphics and great quality textures.

 

[Wolfgang Jr]

SOUL CALIBUR + VGA BOX

 

[darkinstinct]

Not to say it didn't have some good looking games or it was weak, but I feel like the Dreamcast's technical specs were mostly a product of the timing of its launch and more developer friendly design. It came out during strange combo: a time when 3D processors were moving by leaps and bounds and the only close competition or reference anyone had was the aging N64, which was a memory starved piece of hardware. Not to mention, the N64 was ultra-difficult to develop games and the Dreamcast wasn't. So, the N64 offered nothing in terms of competition at all.

Add to that, the PS2 was the next console after the Dreamcast, and was considered one of the most difficult consoles to develop for of all time.

In summary, I felt like the Dreamcast was in a great spot to show off its hardware mostly because it had no competition and it was easy to develop for. They sprang a "next gen" console early. It didn't work out for them, but it seems people think it was some anomaly powerhouse system, which imo it wasn't and that's more a product of its launch timing. But the Dreamcast wasn't weak either, and it also had some interesting ideas and forward-thinking.

It was a home arcade. How is that even a question?

 

[Team Andromeda]

Eh, not really. The Model 3 was better, especially it's later revisions that would power something like Daytona 2. That game reaches almost XBOX/Chihiro levels of polygon pushing.

No it doesn't.The biggest change Model 3 Step II allowed for was all effects could be used with the maximum number of Polygons .

 

[Team Andromeda]

The DC was a massive leap over the previous gen . Seeing a near Arcade perfect port of Model 3 VF 3 in your home in Nov 98 was a stunning achievement .

 

[ksdixon]

For a home console to complete with and stay active as many years as PS1 (yes 1) it was NOT.

its a beautiful console. I make Custom Dreamcast Consoles as a hobby with HDMI mod. maybe I will post my collection some time in future.

Please do

 

[Segaswirl]

Toy Commander was one of the games I got with my Dreamcast and I just remember being impressed with the scale of everything. The jump from the PS1 to DC felt huge to me, probably the biggest jump there's ever been between generations.

When I got my PS2 it felt like a sidestep, or even a slightly backwards step. So I got an Xbox and it has been my main platform ever since.

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

It was a true generational leap over the PS1/N64. Compared to PS1 it had 5x more RAM, the processor was 7x faster, could process 10x the number of polygons per second, 640x480, built-in online, etc. It was able to handle serviceable ports of advanced arcade games and high-end PC titles.... what else did it need?

Was it the first console to support Progressive scan as well? I know Soul Calibur listed it on the box.

 

[cireza]

Was it the first console to support Progressive scan as well? I know Soul Calibur listed it on the box.

All 8 and 16 bits consoles support progressive scans on CRT using 240p (maybe not the NES).

However, progressive scan for 480 lines resolution, I think so ? Unless a console I don't really know does it, like 3D0, Jaguar or whatever.
MegaDrive could do 480 lines, but it was interlaced (Sonic 2 two players), same for the Saturn (Virtua Fighter 2 and many other games).

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

All 8 and 16 bits consoles support progressive scans on CRT using 240p (maybe not the NES).

However, progressive scan for 480 lines resolution, I think so ? Unless a console I don't really know does it, like 3D0, Jaguar or whatever.
MegaDrive could do 480 lines, but it was interlaced (Sonic 2 two players), same for the Saturn (Virtua Fighter 2 and many other games).

Yeah 480p, that's what I meant. I remember that being a big detail back then when I got my launch one.

And you needed a TV with S-Video input; right?

 

[cireza]

Yeah 480p, that's what I meant. I remember that being a big detail back then when I got my launch one.

And you needed a TV with S-Video input; right?

Progressive scan is provided through VGA. I don't think that S-Video can provide 480p, only interlaced 480i/576i or 240p/288p for lower res

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

It was powerful at performing the job it was designed to do. That is, to play (mostly arcade) games at 60 fps in 480p.

If you have a compatible CRT / projector, it looks like heaven.

 

[Esppiral]

Peeple saying that the Dreamcast wasn't a big jump from the psx... In what alternative universe do these people live?

Also I see a lot of mentions to Soul Calbur but Dead or Alive 2 is miles ahead I terms of graphics and character models, like one single character in DOA 2 has more polys that an entire stage+characters in soul calibur.

Also GT4 for ps2 despite displaying at 1080i it is rendering at a native resolution of 512x224.......

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

Progressive scan is provided through VGA. I don't think that S-Video can provide 480p, only interlaced 480i/576i or 240p/288p for lower res

Ahh, just my memory then. For some reason was thinking it needed that separate S-Video cable in tandem with the VGA. Been a long time.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

. I particularly think of the many arcade fighting games that had ports to both Playstation and Dreamcast, where the Dreamcast version always came out on top and was usually much more accurate to the arcade original.

The dreamcast was much more powerful than pretty much all of the arcade boards of the time, the thing that came close to it was Sega's own model 3 (with games like Virtua Fighter 3 and Sega GT), the Soul Edge/Calibur games ran on hardware that was comparable to the PS1 so the Dreamcast had to look better. A lot of fighting games were running on Neo-Geo or CPS like hardware, the PS1 did not have enough memory to hold all the sprite work to reproduce all the animation of the arcade, so ports to the DC were definitely more accurate in this version, they even added some 3D background to some Capcom fighters.

So in most cases the DC version was not "closer" to the arcade, it was miles ahead.

No home console had ever even come close to arcades before, let alone surpassed it. There is no "of course it did."

The Genesis and Turbo-Grafx 16 were better than a lot of arcade hardware from a year or two before they were released , obviously the Sega hardware from 1986 could still do things that the 32X could not reproduce 100% accurately (Space Harrier and After burner had frame rate drops on it).

Atomic Runner Chelnov
Arcade

Genesis

 

[deriks]

Kinda

It's like a PlayStation to a N64. It's weaker, but could work around

 

[loktaiextatus]

That's true, because Microsoft worked deals with Sega after the fact. But I think Sega fell on its sword and admitted defeat because the PS2 straight up murdered it as the premier Japanese game console. Though I love the PS2, it is largely responsible for the Dreamcast's early death.

Well yeah, indeed the PS2 was the looming death of the DC from its very inception.

 

[Journey]

Of course it did, when Soul Calibur came to Dreamcast it had been out in the arcade for a year and a half, and it ran on the arcade version of the Playstation. (1996 arcade board)
It had BETTER look better than that.

And it did, so I fail to understand your point. If it didn't, then it means it didn't evolve and therefore underpowered, but the Dreamcast was a powerhouse for its time, the graphics were leaps and bounds ahead of any home console of the time, an incredible jump in visuals, a leap we rarely see today when moving to a new generation.

 

[Journey]

I'll just leave this right here and watch PS2 fans pile up the excuses.

 

[loktaiextatus]

This is factually incorrect. PSX STRUGGLED with Neo Geo games, they were greatly compromised and the Saturn required external RAM carts to run them close to well.

But yeah, I feel like the only people who would ask this question are babies. The Dreamcast in 1998 was fucking mind-blowing. Virtua Fighter 3 when it released in 96 was unreal in arcades and in 98 still looked amazing.

Oh and it also got an almost perfect version of King of Fighters 98.

The Saturn did not struggle with NeoGeo games, they usually used a memory cart thats all. It was not "close to well" with the ram cart
they were basically perfect. Even the NeoGeo "struggled" with Neogeo games... I can tell you they had often tons of slowdown in the arcade.
It was normal, and no emphasis was placed on frame rate etc. If you go back now and look at the ports and you see the slowdown you may
begin to think the system is having a hard time with them.... Kind of like the game in the hunt. it was ported badly but even though it has even more
slowdown on saturn and less on PSX ( and we know this is a coding issue and it didnt use all the processors in the saturn and that worked better on
PSX's single processor as far as lazy ports go) In the Hunt actually has slowdown in the arcade too. Yes I know its not a neogeo game just another example.

This was not because it was WEAKER than the neogeo, this was because it was ported from a system with
different arch.

The issue at hand is this.... The arcade ports on the Dreamcast were good because they were ported by competent people contemporary to both systems.

The Saturn had some really decent arcade ports. Yeah obviously they were downgraded- Of course they were... but they managed to get the game on the
system which was considerably weaker and not exactly designed around 3d.

Dreamcast was good. People are saying it was the biggest generational improvement. I disagree... I think the biggest was Psx/saturn from the Genesis / SNES.
And the reason is because of the transition to 3d. The reason the Dreamcast seems like such a big leap over those in 3d still is because the 3d graphics were still
rudimentary.

And if we're talking about a big 3d leap, if I am honest and we consider Dreamcast some kind of baseline for the generation including PS2, XBOX and Gamecube
then if you compare PS3 games , the very next generation... anyone claiming the Dreamcast from the PSX is the biggest generational leap....

Remember, as pretty as Virtua Fighter 3 is, or as nice as Soul Calibur was, Uncharted, the last of us , heavy rain, gran turismo 6, are ONE generation up from Dreamcast.
I would honestly consider that the biggest generational leap... even if you hope and pray and wish for the Dreamcast to have a long life the way PSX did, it it was not going to get you into
that ballpark.

 

[loktaiextatus]

I'll just leave this right here and watch PS2 fans pile up the excuses.

Dude, the arcade game was designed for the Naomi board- the DREAMCAST is the games lead platform and the arch.
is considerably different. It was a quick launch-window port. It looking better on DC is no shock.

One thing about that comparison- there is a Japanese version of the game that picked up some of the PS2 lighting
and other changes into the Dreamcast version including enveloping limbs etc on the character. That is a SICK version
of the game on Dreamcast... Called CE or something? I cant recall now.

 

[loktaiextatus]

We don't know the full extent of the console's capabilities as it was short lived. While Saturn had a pretty decent lifespan, and I believe, demonstrated quite well what it could do (with only Virtua Fighter 3 being the game that could have pushed a bit more), Dreamcast did not have this opportunity.

It is pretty clear that the console would have gotten games like HOTD3, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Outrun 2, Jet Set Radio Future, Gun Valyrie etc... All these games that made it to Xbox would have been on Dreamcast. And Virtua Fighter 4 as well. They would have looked different that's for sure, but there is no reason the console would have not been able to handle them, with its clean graphics and great quality textures.

Dreamcast certainly could run those games- They would not be up at the same level as what the Xbox got, but yes it could run them.
The nintendo switch can run Doom, but it doesnt mean thats going to be the definitive version. Same with Dreamcast and those games.
They may well have pushed the system but since the DC was never very hard to milk

I did love the clarity and texturing on the DC- I still comment on it every time. It was really well designed and that truly made the games look
bright and clear.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Playstation couldn't even run kof 97 properly.

Why are you ignoring the Saturn here?
Bad porting of games designed for a different platform doesnt mean it couldnt run them. It means the
way hardware was designed then was different. Saturn included the means to run those games,. Playstation was
Sony and Nintendos baby and they probably never meant to run much from the arcade.

But if you're going to argue that it cant run KOF97... bad porting can go both ways. In The Hunt runs better
on Playstation than Saturn and its an intense 2d game. (Its like metal slug in a submarine if you havent seen it) and
try porting Metal gear solid to the NeoGeo and tell me the Neogeo is Playstations equal... Hell just pick
any launch game like Jumping flash. They're different machines.

In other words just because my Oven takes longer to toast bread doesnt mean its weaker than my toaster.
It just was built for a different purpose.

 

[Journey]

Dude, the arcade game was designed for the Naomi board- the DREAMCAST is the games lead platform and the arch.
is considerably different. It was a quick launch-window port. It looking better on DC is no shock.

One thing about that comparison- there is a Japanese version of the game that picked up some of the PS2 lighting
and other changes into the Dreamcast version including enveloping limbs etc on the character. That is a SICK version
of the game on Dreamcast... Called CE or something? I cant recall now.

Cue excuses in 3.... 2... oh damn, forget the countdown LMAO

If a system is considerably more powerful, it doesn't matter if a game literally gave birth out of its disc drive and was delivered by the god of game creators. Ryse: Son of Rome was designed specifically for Xbox One, down to ESRAM optimizations, yet it's a no brainer that it would run and look better on the PS4, no one would question that.

That's Dead or Alive 2 "HARD CORE", developed from the GROUND UP on PS2 according to Team Ninja, they used some of the PS2's lighting capabilities as seen in one of the stages in particular with lights coming in from windows, the lighting is more impressive than the Dreamcast version, so it's not even a clear cut win for the Dreamcast, so don't act like this was just a straight port when it's clear that effort was put in to even change the entire lighting system, the problem is that the PS2 didn't have 8MB of Ram readily available with texture compression like the Dreamcast, so it had its drawbacks despite having other qualities.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Cue excuses in 3.... 2... oh damn, forget the countdown LMAO

If a system is considerably more powerful, it doesn't matter if a game literally gave birth out of its disc drive and was delivered by the god of game creators. Ryse: Son of Rome was designed specifically for Xbox One, down to ESRAM optimizations, yet it's a no brainer that it would run and look better on the PS4, no one would question that.

That's Dead or Alive 2 "HARD CORE", developed from the GROUND UP on PS2 according to Team Ninja, they used some of the PS2's lighting capabilities as seen in one of the stages in particular with lights coming in from windows, the lighting is more impressive than the Dreamcast version, so it's not even a clear cut win for the Dreamcast, so don't act like this was just a straight port when it's clear that effort was put in to even change the entire lighting system, the problem is that the PS2 didn't have 8MB of Ram readily available with texture compression like the Dreamcast, so it had its drawbacks despite having other qualities.

Hmm For some reason I thought it was CE or LE...

So in other words what we are saying is... the game should run better on a system with a faster CPU that pushes more polygons?
Because thats the mentality when comparing Xbox and PS4 here. Yet it doesnt. And its not because the PS2 cant run them.
Look at later PS2 games. Milking power out of a system isnt as simple as "ok the code is running, shove it out the door".
Look at the games on PS2 later, it ramped up in quality drastically.

Nobody is saying , especially not me, that Dreamcast is a PSX level machine or that the PS2 is so out of its league they can share no games
in common.... But for all its powerful texturing capabilities the Dreamcast was not as good at a lot of other things. I am ignoring storage size
because that was not the biggest issue yet by the time the system died. But just comparing even FFX and MGS2, somewhat earlier PS2 games
... I cant point to their equals on Dreamcast. Even Shenmue which was a considerable endeavor ... the only reason I dont say "shenmue is the BEST
the dreamcast can do period" is because we all know shenmue started life on saturn.

 

[lame gag1990]

It was released in 98 in Japan. It absolutely was a powerful machine at launch. We all know how incredible Soul Calibur was when that launched. Shenmue was released just a year after Dreamcast's Japanese launch and it looks incredible for the time. A game released a year after a console's launch would be considered an early title. Most, if not all systems aren't really figured out or begin to get pushed until a few years later. The Dreamcast had more in the tank but it's life was unfortunately cut short. It's a great little system and it has such an amazing amount of charm. It deserved better.

 

[RetroAV]

The Saturn did not struggle with NeoGeo games, they usually used a memory cart thats all. It was not "close to well" with the ram cart
they were basically perfect. Even the NeoGeo "struggled" with Neogeo games... I can tell you they had often tons of slowdown in the arcade.
It was normal, and no emphasis was placed on frame rate etc. If you go back now and look at the ports and you see the slowdown you may
begin to think the system is having a hard time with them.... Kind of like the game in the hunt. it was ported badly but even though it has even more
slowdown on saturn and less on PSX ( and we know this is a coding issue and it didnt use all the processors in the saturn and that worked better on
PSX's single processor as far as lazy ports go) In the Hunt actually has slowdown in the arcade too. Yes I know its not a neogeo game just another example.

This was not because it was WEAKER than the neogeo, this was because it was ported from a system with
different arch.

The issue at hand is this.... The arcade ports on the Dreamcast were good because they were ported by competent people contemporary to both systems.

The Saturn had some really decent arcade ports. Yeah obviously they were downgraded- Of course they were... but they managed to get the game on the
system which was considerably weaker and not exactly designed around 3d.

Dreamcast was good. People are saying it was the biggest generational improvement. I disagree... I think the biggest was Psx/saturn from the Genesis / SNES.
And the reason is because of the transition to 3d. The reason the Dreamcast seems like such a big leap over those in 3d still is because the 3d graphics were still
rudimentary.

And if we're talking about a big 3d leap, if I am honest and we consider Dreamcast some kind of baseline for the generation including PS2, XBOX and Gamecube
then if you compare PS3 games , the very next generation... anyone claiming the Dreamcast from the PSX is the biggest generational leap....

Remember, as pretty as Virtua Fighter 3 is, or as nice as Soul Calibur was, Uncharted, the last of us , heavy rain, gran turismo 6, are ONE generation up from Dreamcast.
I would honestly consider that the biggest generational leap... even if you hope and pray and wish for the Dreamcast to have a long life the way PSX did, it it was not going to get you into
that ballpark.

Virtua Fighter 3 and Soul Calibur were Dreamcast launch titles. Uncharted, The Last of Us, Heavy Rain, and Gran Turismo 6 were not launch titles for the PS3. The PS3 had nothing at launch that blew people's minds (thanks to the Xbox 360) the way the Dreamcast did with its launch.

Also, how can you take a jab at the Dreamcast for not being a generational leap, and then turn around and praise the PS2 when it didn't even impress at its own launch 2 years later and was $100 more expensive? Or praise the PS3 when it also failed to impress a year after the Xbox 360 and cost $200 more? But you want to go ahead and call out the Dreamcast!?...

 

[cryptoadam]

Couldn't you just copy the games and run them?

The good old days when you could hack your system and have a book full of 100 CD's of burnt games.

PS don't pirate games its bad.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

I had Dreamcast at launch and it is an amazing experience. First time running game like Soul Calibur, Sonic Adventure, Crazy Taxi was real eye popper. There is no doubt ps2 is much stronger than dreamcast but it is also double the price and the early ps2 game don't look any better than high end dreamcast game.

 

[Laconian Sword]

Unfortunately the value proposition of
getting the DVD player in the PS2

This point is so underestimated today, but this was huge at the time. You could get a game console + DVD player for less than a standalone DVD player. People who weren't even into gaming bought PS2s.

 

[Journey]

Hmm For some reason I thought it was CE or LE...

So in other words what we are saying is... the game should run better on a system with a faster CPU that pushes more polygons?
Because thats the mentality when comparing Xbox and PS4 here. Yet it doesnt. And its not because the PS2 cant run them.
Look at later PS2 games. Milking power out of a system isnt as simple as "ok the code is running, shove it out the door".
Look at the games on PS2 later, it ramped up in quality drastically.

Nobody is saying , especially not me, that Dreamcast is a PSX level machine or that the PS2 is so out of its league they can share no games
in common.... But for all its powerful texturing capabilities the Dreamcast was not as good at a lot of other things. I am ignoring storage size
because that was not the biggest issue yet by the time the system died. But just comparing even FFX and MGS2, somewhat earlier PS2 games
... I cant point to their equals on Dreamcast. Even Shenmue which was a considerable endeavor ... the only reason I dont say "shenmue is the BEST
the dreamcast can do period" is because we all know shenmue started life on saturn.

The question is: Was the Dreamcast actually powerful at launch, or was there just nothing else to compare, but there's your comparison and Dreamcast is holding its own against the PS2 despite it launching a full year later and $100 dollars more. So yes, it was very powerful for its time, and if it hadn't died, we may have seen how 2nd and 3rd gen games would've have compared to PS2, unfortunately only 1st gen Dreamcast titles are left to compare to what the PS2 evolved to, and that on its own isn't a fair comparison.

Here's another comparison where the Dreamcast is not only holding its own against the PS2, but in certain aspects like texture filtering and AA, actually beating the PS2, notice a weird effect that happens to PS2 cars in the distance, especially the rear grills. PS2 has certain advantages like better lighting in some stages, but overall they're on par.

 

[Comfortgel]

Dreamcast was the first time ever I felt like the arcade experience was brought home (except for Neo-Geo, but I never even SAW one until maybe ten years ago). Had the dvd expansion launched, I think it would have had a fighting chance against PS2.

 

[Romulus]

It was a home arcade. How is that even a question?

To be fair, I'd seen lots of really good arcade ports before on consoles, some of them insanely good. I could go back and do examples of 2d fighters because that's really where the Saturn exceeded. But, I'll take the Saturn somewhat outside its comfort zone to the 3d arcade ports.

The Saturn came out the same year as Virtual Fighter 2 and had a crazy good port of the arcade. Why is this more impressive than anything on Dreamcast? The Saturn wasn't known for its 3d and it was very difficult to develop for.





Sega Rally Championship was damn good too, again not the Saturn's strength





Even the Tekken 3 port is just as impressive feat if not more than anything on Dreamcast for its time. It came out 2 years after the ps1 release and did a near arcade perfect port.




As I dive more into this subject and reading posts here, I'm becoming more impressed by other system ports vs the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast was specifically designed to run these arcade games while others weren't, and in many cases, yet they did near-perfect ports.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Virtua Fighter 3 and Soul Calibur were Dreamcast launch titles. Uncharted, The Last of Us, Heavy Rain, and Gran Turismo 6 were not launch titles for the PS3. The PS3 had nothing at launch that blew people's minds (thanks to the Xbox 360) the way the Dreamcast did with its launch.

Also, how can you take a jab at the Dreamcast for not being a generational leap, and then turn around and praise the PS2 when it didn't even impress at its own launch 2 years later and was $100 more expensive? Or praise the PS3 when it also failed to impress a year after the Xbox 360 and cost $200 more? But you want to go ahead and call out the Dreamcast!?...

Virtua Fighter 3 was not a launch dreamcast game. And Soul Calibur was not a launch game for the system itself- The system was out in japan for a while which someone
reminded me of on this thread, we were not getting worldwide releases yet.

I didnt take any jabs at Dreamcast- its the weakest of the generation.

I also didnt praise PS3 at all, I praised its generation. I pointed out the PS3 because it had the biggest graphical showcases. You're drawing some kind of
lines between the systems I mentioned in a context I did not bring them up in. I brought them up to demonstrate "generational leap". the 360 is part of that
generation, I didnt claim the PS3 was a generational leap over the 360, I claimed the PS360 generation was in fact as big of, if not a bigger generational leap
than the dreamcast was over the N64/Psx. Thats literally it. That it was a one generation difference and we went from Evolution, Timestalkers, Power Stone and
such as being average examples of Dreamcast games to games like Motorstorm.

If you want to compare Apples to Apples compare a dreamcast launch title like Flag to Flag ( was it launch? I think so, if not I think its close enough)
to a PSX launch era title like Ridge Racer or Wipeout- Perfectly good leap. But compare Flag to Flag to for instance ,Ridge Racer 7 , Motorstorm.
I think the generational leap is pretty big if youre counting just whats on Dreamcast.

And LOL at trying to say PS3 was intended to be a generational leap over the 360! Literally nobody even said anything like that.
The 360 had a year head start but by the end of the generation the PS3s games were graphically much better- thats why I brought that up.

I could have made the same argument effectively just using examples from the XBOX 360 though to say that the leap from Dreamcast to its next generation
was decent compared to the previous.

By the way the PS3 was pretty impressive when it came out compared to the 360... I know a lot of people dont recall it correctly but imagine that about one year
after your console comes out the competition comes out with a machine that had: HDMI, Bluetooth wireless including controllers as standard, a bigger hard disk that is also
easily up-gradable, Standard Wi-fi, a BLURAY drive and those players cost over 500 on their own at the time, FREE online play, motion controls,
full backward compatibility to 2 generations, and Im not going to nit pick about its other connectivity or anything but the 360 had to play catch up....
And this is before the scope of the RROD was even apparent. I would say the PS3 is very impressive if you stick a launch PS3 next to the XBOX 360 as it existed at that moment.

 

[loktaiextatus]

The question is: Was the Dreamcast actually powerful at launch, or was there just nothing else to compare, but there's your comparison and Dreamcast is holding its own against the PS2 despite it launching a full year later and $100 dollars more. So yes, it was very powerful for its time, and if it hadn't died, we may have seen how 2nd and 3rd gen games would've have compared to PS2, unfortunately only 1st gen Dreamcast titles are left to compare to what the PS2 evolved to, and that on its own isn't a fair comparison.

Here's another comparison where the Dreamcast is not only holding its own against the PS2, but in certain aspects like texture filtering and AA, actually beating the PS2, notice a weird effect that happens to PS2 cars in the distance, especially the rear grills. PS2 has certain advantages like better lighting in some stages, but overall they're on par.

Once again you are using F355 challenge. The game was designed for Naomi, it used multiple Naomi boards to display across the 3 screens. I played a lot of that game in the arcade.
F355 is a NATIVELY DEVELOPED dreamcast game essentially like DOA2. It was not like it was ported from another system to each, it was already designed around Dreamcast.

And I am not faulting F355 as I said I played it a lot, bragged to my friends that the ferrari F1 team used it to practice (which was what was being said at the time)
and that the game was gorgeous, which it was but most importantly accurate , which it was.

But realistically you cant compare it to a game with more than one car model on screen at any given time, or with more going on. F355 cheated ram a lot because of the way it reused assets
and that all the cars were identically handling etc so not much calculation had to be done. I want to say it was the best racing game on dreamcast in the way of accuracy.

But once again.... Choosing dreamcast native games, we may as well also look at Crazy Taxi or something else, they are all just native Dreamcast games- Which is ONE of the best things about the dreamcast- that it had an arcade system designed around it.

I might be doxxing myself for saying this- This is out of the blue. My daughters name is Naomi- and I named her after the arcade machine because I was such a big sega fan
and managed to convince her mother without mentioning that fact.... she happened to like the name.

 

[RetroAV]

To be fair, I'd seen lots of really good arcade ports before on consoles, some of them insanely good. I could go back and do examples of 2d fighters because that's really where the Saturn exceeded. But, I'll take the Saturn somewhat outside its comfort zone to the 3d arcade ports.

The Saturn came out the same year as Virtual Fighter 2 and had a crazy good port of the arcade. Why is this more impressive than anything on Dreamcast? The Saturn wasn't known for its 3d and it was very difficult to develop for.





Sega Rally Championship was damn good too, again not the Saturn's strength





Even the Tekken 3 port is just as impressive feat if not more than anything on Dreamcast for its time. It came out 2 years after the ps1 release and did a near arcade perfect port.




As I dive more into this subject and reading posts here, I'm becoming more impressed by other system ports vs the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast was specifically designed to run these arcade games while others weren't, and in many cases, yet they did near-perfect ports.

As impressive as those "near arcade perfect" ports were, we didn't see "arcade better" (at least, to this degree) until Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast.

 

[diffusionx]

To be fair, I'd seen lots of really good arcade ports before on consoles, some of them insanely good. I could go back and do examples of 2d fighters because that's really where the Saturn exceeded. But, I'll take the Saturn somewhat outside its comfort zone to the 3d arcade ports.

The Saturn came out the same year as Virtual Fighter 2 and had a crazy good port of the arcade. Why is this more impressive than anything on Dreamcast? The Saturn wasn't known for its 3d and it was very difficult to develop for.





Sega Rally Championship was damn good too, again not the Saturn's strength





Even the Tekken 3 port is just as impressive feat if not more than anything on Dreamcast for its time. It came out 2 years after the ps1 release and did a near arcade perfect port.




As I dive more into this subject and reading posts here, I'm becoming more impressed by other system ports vs the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast was specifically designed to run these arcade games while others weren't, and in many cases, yet they did near-perfect ports.

Sega Rally and VF2 were considered somewhat miracles upon release, because they came on the heels of the Daytona USA and VF1 botch jobs that made the system look so bad versus the PlayStation Tekken and Ridge Racer ports.

Tekken 3 ran on the System 12 board which was like a souped up PS1 (System 11 was a PS1, basically). It wasn’t as powerful as Model 3 but wasn’t meant to be. IIRC Sega was talking up a VF3 port to Saturn, and everyone was wondering how it was possible, but it obviously didn’t happen. It would have been massively cut down.

 

[loktaiextatus]

As impressive as those "near arcade perfect" ports were, we didn't see "arcade better" (at least, to this degree) until Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast.

It took another 7 months because of the Launch date but Tekken Tag on the PS2 got basically the same treatment, if not for that damn aliasing right?

 

[Romulus]

As impressive as those "near arcade perfect" ports were, we didn't see "arcade better" (at least, to this degree) until Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast.

But really, that's even more impressive though? Saturn excelled at 2d and yet still boxed with cutting edge 3d arcade games.

Have you played any of the Saturn 2d fighters?

 

[cireza]

It came out 2 years after the ps1 release and did a near arcade perfect port.

But this a Namco System 12 game, so that's definitely not as impressive as Virtua Fighter 2 honestly. Especially considering the game was released so early in the life cycle of the Saturn.

I would really like to see how Virtua Fighter 3 for Saturn by the way, this version was completed it seems, so it needs to resurface.

 

[loktaiextatus]

Sega Rally and VF2 were considered somewhat miracles upon release, because they came on the heels of the Daytona USA and VF1 botch jobs that made the system look so bad versus the PlayStation Tekken and Ridge Racer ports.

Tekken 3 ran on the System 12 board which was like a souped up PS1 (System 11 was a PS1, basically). It wasn’t as powerful as Model 3 but wasn’t meant to be. IIRC Sega was talking up a VF3 port to Saturn, and everyone was wondering how it was possible, but it obviously didn’t happen. It would have been massively cut down.

I had heart a lot of rumors of a bigger expansion card meant to power VF3 and Shenmue, possibly others but it never happened. Would have been cool...
but given Segas add-on woes maybe its for the best as I doubt it would have done more than hurt sega financially.

 

[Journey]

Once again you are using F355 challenge. The game was designed for Naomi, it used multiple Naomi boards to display across the 3 screens. I played a lot of that game in the arcade.
F355 is a NATIVELY DEVELOPED dreamcast game essentially like DOA2. It was not like it was ported from another system to each, it was already designed around Dreamcast.

And I am not faulting F355 as I said I played it a lot, bragged to my friends that the ferrari F1 team used it to practice (which was what was being said at the time)
and that the game was gorgeous, which it was but most importantly accurate , which it was.

But realistically you cant compare it to a game with more than one car model on screen at any given time, or with more going on. F355 cheated ram a lot because of the way it reused assets
and that all the cars were identically handling etc so not much calculation had to be done. I want to say it was the best racing game on dreamcast in the way of accuracy.

But once again.... Choosing dreamcast native games, we may as well also look at Crazy Taxi or something else, they are all just native Dreamcast games- Which is ONE of the best things about the dreamcast- that it had an arcade system designed around it.

I might be doxxing myself for saying this- This is out of the blue. My daughters name is Naomi- and I named her after the arcade machine because I was such a big sega fan
and managed to convince her mother without mentioning that fact.... she happened to like the name.

What exactly is it that you're looking for? Something where the Dreamcast would have ZERO advantage and the PS2 had ALL the advantage in order to make it fair??? The system launched a FULL YEAR later and priced ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS MORE, there should NOT be any excuses.

Bottom line:

Dreamcast UNDERPOWERED for 1999

Means

PS2 appropriate for 2000 would KILL, no just beat, we're talking about an underpowered 1999 hardware vs 2000 hardware that's $100 more, under NO circumstance the Dreamcast should have an advantage....

Unless...

and this is a biggie for you to grasp....


Unless the Dreamcast was actually a powerhouse for 1999. Ding Ding Ding.

 

[loktaiextatus]

What exactly is it that you're looking for? Something where the Dreamcast would have ZERO advantage and the PS2 had ALL the advantage in order to make it fair??? The system launch a FULL YEAR later and ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS MORE, there should be any excuses.

Bottom line:

Dreamcast UNDERPOWERED for 1999

Means

PS2 appropriate for 2000 would KILL, no just beat, we're talking about an underpowered 1999 hardware vs 2000 hardware that's $100 more, under NO circumstance the Dreamcast should have an advantage....

Unless...

and this is a biggie for you to grasp....


Unless the Dreamcast was actually a powerhouse for 1999. Ding Ding Ding.

LOL why are you so aggressive? Youre comparing a system that was simple to develop for and had a year + head start.

You're going to link a video on a few times the Dreamcast "beat" the PS2? I dont need to link a video for this.

Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 12,
Gran Turismo 3, 4
Metal Gear solid 2, 3
Katamari damacy,
Shadow Of the colossus
ICO
GRAND THEFT AUTO 3 (a few of them)
Phantasy Star Universe
Kessen,

Do you think it was hard to name off those games? I hadly had to think about it. None of them would run without significant downgrades on the Dreamcast
and many of them simply wouldn't even fit on the Dreamcasts media.

The Dreamcast has no secret sauce. its a 200mhz RISC and a PVRG2. It has nice texture compression- it wasnt held back or untapped.

 

[SportsFan581]

The PS2 and DC had different strengths. What you think looks better will depend on what you value. Character modules were more complex on PS2, unfortunately that horrible softness existed throughout its entire life, therefore I don't rate any PS2 games as great looking (same for Wii), but that's a personal preference.

 

[loktaiextatus]

The PS2 and DC had different strengths. What you think looks better will depend on what you value. Character modules were more complex on PS2, unfortunately that horrible softness existed throughout its entire life, therefore I don't rate any PS2 games as great looking (same for Wii), but that's a personal preference.

if we're talking about Raw power, or comparing complexity of games, Dreamcast doesnt compare well to PS2, Gamecube or XBOX, or even PC of the time.
There was a lot going on with PC at the time that could not work on console but especially not Dreamcast with some of its specific limitations. The more
"arcade like" games that could be ported looked really nice though as far as texture quality etc. I thought Slave Zero made a really nice DC game.

 

[Journey]

LOL why are you so aggressive? Youre comparing a system that was simple to develop for and had a year + head start.

You're going to link a video on a few times the Dreamcast "beat" the PS2? I dont need to link a video for this.

Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy 11, Final Fantasy 12,
Gran Turismo 3, 4
Metal Gear solid 2, 3
Katamari damacy,
Shadow Of the colossus
ICO
GRAND THEFT AUTO 3 (a few of them)
Phantasy Star Universe
Kessen,

Do you think it was hard to name off those games? I hadly had to think about it. None of them would run without significant downgrades on the Dreamcast
and many of them simply wouldn't even fit on the Dreamcasts media.

The Dreamcast has no secret sauce. its a 200mhz RISC and a PVRG2. It has nice texture compression- it wasnt held back or untapped.

You're missing the point entirely. I'm addressing the question, was the Dreamcast powerful in 1999? Yes. The PS2 clearly had advantages, and it should launching a full year later and costing $100 more.

Was the PS4 Pro underpowered? No, it was the most powerful console when it released. Capice?