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[ArachosiA 78]

Hi guys,

I've always heard that in order to gain muscle, you must be operating on a calorie surplus. So if your body needs 2,000 calories a day just to maintain its daily functions, then you need to eat more than that in order to gain muscle. If you are operating at a calorie deficit, then the best you can hope for is maintaining what muscle you already have, but you will not be gaining any additional muscle no matter how hard you workout.

This seems to be true, because with all of the weight lifting I have done over the years while operating on a calorie deficit, I have only noticed my muscles getting more toned...but not necessarily bigger.

I was wondering though...with a no carb diet, would it be possible to both operate at a calorie surplus and lose fat at the same time? I was thinking about bumping my calories up well beyond what my body needs... I should be in ketosis as long as I don't eat any carbs, and then all the extra calories will just allow me to actually gain muscle. In theory this should work, but I don't know, and I'm afraid to try it if it means I'll actually gain fat. Does anyone have any idea what would happen if I were to try this?

 

[Nolimit_SS]

Anyone got good website with low carb recipes for dinner, lunch, how to prepare meat, side dishes etc?

Been looking at some stuff but like half of things needed I couldn't buy here lol ( I can't even find !@#$ing broccoli or cauliflower), so will have to improvise...

 

[CSampson]

Lost 55 pounds and counting since Feb 2010. Will post pic once I'm where I want to be at (currently 186 lbs). For anyone on the fence, it is totally worth it. Life changing.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Hi guys,

I've always heard that in order to gain muscle, you must be operating on a calorie surplus. So if your body needs 2,000 calories a day just to maintain its daily functions, then you need to eat more than that in order to gain muscle. If you are operating at a calorie deficit, then the best you can hope for is maintaining what muscle you already have, but you will not be gaining any additional muscle no matter how hard you workout.

This seems to be true, because with all of the weight lifting I have done over the years while operating on a calorie deficit, I have only noticed my muscles getting more toned...but not necessarily bigger.

I was wondering though...with a no carb diet, would it be possible to both operate at a calorie surplus and lose fat at the same time? I was thinking about bumping my calories up well beyond what my body needs... I should be in ketosis as long as I don't eat any carbs, and then all the extra calories will just allow me to actually gain muscle. In theory this should work, but I don't know, and I'm afraid to try it if it means I'll actually gain fat. Does anyone have any idea what would happen if I were to try this?

If you eat calories in excess you're going to gain fat. You need to decide if you are loosing fat or gaining muscle, but generally you can't do both, unless you're relatively unconditioned. Trying to micromanage your body's nutrition is head-ache-inducing and futile.

The 'toning' you described is simply the result of less body fat. It does not indicate that anything has happened to your muscles.

Most body builders go through stages of bulking and cutting. If you're going from fat to lean, decide a goal for yourself based on your height and desired appearance and then shift to a bulking diet with excessive calories and some carbs. You should keep your diet clean to keep the fat gain to a minimal though. Carbs are a good source of energy which you need for effective workout sessions but you should try to stick to low GI foods. No processed foods. No fast food.

 

[reggieandTFE]

I went off the low carb diet for about a month, gained about four lbs back, and then started it up again 2 weeks ago. Lost 8.5 lbs the first week, but only 1.5 the second (despite consistently having 20 or fewer carbs a day)

Oh well, I am now officially at 200 lbs. My heaviest was 243 sometime last year.

I've kept thinking that my goal weight is around 180 or 185 (I'm 5'11) but it really seems like I have more than 15 more lbs to lose. Still got a big stomach and big man titties :/

People carry their weight differently. I'm 5'10", 160 lbs and still have love handles.

 

[moniker]

Anyone got good website with low carb recipes for dinner, lunch, how to prepare meat, side dishes etc?

Been looking at some stuff but like half of things needed I couldn't buy here lol ( I can't even find !@#$ing broccoli or cauliflower), so will have to improvise...

Chinner posted this earlier in the thread. Lots of good stuff. Btw, where do you live where you can't get broccoli or cauliflower?

 

[Nolimit_SS]

^ that's the site that made me rage a bit because I either never heard of some of that stuff or can't find it, but I guess all can be changed and made to work.

I live in a very small country(link) so that's the reason we do not have a lot of stuff, including some types of food, which I found out since starting low carb heh.
It's not like we're poor/hungry/some shit like that, we just have specific cuisine which seems to be carbs loaded, like eating bread with almost everything... In restaurant you get like 5 types of bread, they hate you and your low carb diet


Anyway, anyone got quick breakfast ides? Like when I'm going to uni and wake up I have less then 5 minutes to eat/take something with me so beside quick fried egg/with something, or some cheese and salami what else is good to have?
And which fruits are ok to eat on low carb? (watermelon, strawberries, blackberries, peaches?)

 

[Zoe]

Anyway, anyone got quick breakfast ides? Like when I'm going to uni and wake up I have less then 5 minutes to eat/take something with me so beside quick fried egg/with something, or some cheese and salami what else is good to have?
And which fruits are ok to eat on low carb?

Just toss some bacon in the microwave.

 

[Nolimit_SS]

Don't have microwave, gave it away(think it broke but cba fixing). Microwave is rarely used here so most of people don't have one.
Raw bacon? Got some right now mm.

 

[teh_pwn]

Hi guys,

I've always heard that in order to gain muscle, you must be operating on a calorie surplus. So if your body needs 2,000 calories a day just to maintain its daily functions, then you need to eat more than that in order to gain muscle. If you are operating at a calorie deficit, then the best you can hope for is maintaining what muscle you already have, but you will not be gaining any additional muscle no matter how hard you workout.

This seems to be true, because with all of the weight lifting I have done over the years while operating on a calorie deficit, I have only noticed my muscles getting more toned...but not necessarily bigger.

I was wondering though...with a no carb diet, would it be possible to both operate at a calorie surplus and lose fat at the same time? I was thinking about bumping my calories up well beyond what my body needs... I should be in ketosis as long as I don't eat any carbs, and then all the extra calories will just allow me to actually gain muscle. In theory this should work, but I don't know, and I'm afraid to try it if it means I'll actually gain fat. Does anyone have any idea what would happen if I were to try this?

There probably are conditions in which:
1. Caloric deficit & muscle gain
-Must have adequate dietary protein. Muscle is repaired & built on amino acids, not just any calories
-Insulin must be low in order for the internal metabolism to create an internal caloric surplus for lean tissue

2. Caloric surplus & fat loss
-This is probably rare and short term. Probably very obese people with muscle atrophy due to poor insulin sensitivity.
-But again must have exceptionally low insulin
-Must have adequate protein

I do remember Taubes going over Pennington studies in which obese women ate more but dropped several dress sizes while their weight only going down modestly. The study hypothesized that due to poor insulin sensivity, the women had lost lean tissue over years. So for the duration of the study they were able to overeat on Pennington's diet (low carb of the 1950s), gain muscle, and lose fat. The weight loss wasn't impressive, but the waist loss was.

While I think many people have experienced these cases, they are outliers and you shouldn't depend on these for your goals. I would control your internal metabolism as much as possible regardless, but don't expect to endlessly over consume & improve lean mass while losing fat.

 

[talisayNon]

Ok, I hate the smell of coconut oil. I can't freaking stand it.

I need a substitute. Any suggestions?

 

[borghe]

I'll admit I've stayed out of this thread for a while because of the heavy focus on Atkins, and being that weight loss for me is no longer a goal (5'9" 157lbs. currently) I did want to post pictures just to show people that NOT wanting to be on Atkins/low carb, and loving food, you are definitely able to take weight off and feel great. For those on Atkins, I do recognize that it works and that losing the weight really is the biggest struggle of it all, so keep at it. Anyway, finally pics.

Here is me Jan/Feb 2009. This was pretty close to my low point (heaviest). I was probably around 200-205 here..

topped the scales at 205-210 by November 2009 when I went in for my appendectomy. Basically appendix was less than an hour from bursting according to the doctors. Bad enough that my orthoscopic appendectomy turned into an open one instead. :\ so instead of 2 or 3 pencil sized scars I have about 3 inches across my abs and a crapload of scar tissue right under the skin.. bah.. however thanks to my downtime from the open appy, I managed to lose about 10lbs. during recovery.. the downtime also managed to kill my business for good. all of that combined really put my life into perspective and started my goal of, well, living. getting healthy. not dying young.

here is me this weekend. 157lbs.

basically all this time I have been doing heavy weight reps (10-12x3) and moderate running (3-8 miles two to four times a week). diet has been low fat (under 30g), high protein (1g:1lb), moderate carbs (1200-1600 calories during weight loss, about 2200-2700 calories since I stopped working to lose weight). The past two months I have been training to put in a 3:30 or lower time in my marathon this fall, but after doing a lot of research, this may be my first and last marathon as the body and muscle structure of an elite marathon runner isn't really what I'm going for overall. But really the marathon is more of just a "I used to look AND FEEL like the first picture, and a year later I put in a 7:40 pace in a marathon". I really felt like I was going to die before 40 in the first picture.. There was more to it than just my weight that you see.. needless to say I feel great now.

and for some reference of scale above... the polo in the first picture is a large. the t-shirt in the second pick is a medium. my waist in the first pick was 36". My waist in the bottom pic is 28".

 

[LFG]

and for some reference of scale above... the polo in the first picture is a large. the t-shirt in the second pick is a medium. my waist in the first pick was 36". My waist in the bottom pic is 28".

big congrats man! that's a major transformation. my wieght and waist is similiar to your before measurements. hope my change is as good as yours!

 

[The_Inquisitor]

155 lbs doesn't sound right for 5'9". I don't know what your goals are but I'm the same height and was relatively skinny at that weight.

If your goal was weight loss I'd say you've already made it.

Yeah I am pretty lean. Don't have huge biceps or anything at all. :lol I'm trying to train to be a long distance runner. Thus why I am trying to get my weight down. I have the slightest pooch atm. Maybe ill post a picture later.

 

[borghe]

Yeah I am pretty lean. Don't have huge biceps or anything at all. :lol I'm trying to train to be a long distance runner. Thus why I am trying to get my weight down. I have the slightest pooch atm. Maybe ill post a picture later.

that's pretty much me (pics above). mid-150s for that height is definitely tricky. Either way it's definitely not overweight... but it is definitely possible to want to still lose some fat at that weight (which would lose weight) and still possible to be skinny with not a lot of fat (lean). I have fat around my stomach still... probably around 10-15% total body fat at this point. maybe even higher.. so at 157 if I'm 15% that's 24 pounds of fat. if I take off even 7 more pounds (150) it drops you to 11.3%. Put 7 more pounds of muscle back on and you're now at 10.8%. Same weight, a 33% reduction in body fat percentage and not in any way, shape or form unrealistic.

one of the things mentioned on this page though that anyone working out along with diet HAS TO remember... absolutely positively without question, you cannot do serious strength training AND lose weight at the same time. you are either putting weight on (muscle) or taking weight off (fat). however you absolutely cannot do both efficiently at the same time. after I decided my weight loss was done a month or two ago and started eating better (i.e. more) my weight lifting took off like a rocket. in those two months I've managed to lose another pound or two along the way which is great, but yeah..

this is a weight loss thread so I assume that's what people here are shooting for. If you are less concerned about weight loss than you are about strength training at any point, the best suggestion I can give you is to stop your diet and exercise targeted at weight loss and move over to strength training. Your body fat will continue to move towards it's own equilibrium and your strength training will benefit immensely.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Yeah I am pretty lean. Don't have huge biceps or anything at all. :lol I'm trying to train to be a long distance runner. Thus why I am trying to get my weight down. I have the slightest pooch atm. Maybe ill post a picture later.

Oh ok if your goal is to become a runner thats different. There's a difference between just wanting to have a good body image and wanting to be a serious runner.

The last few sticky pounds of fat can be a bitch to work off but you just have to be patient and persevere. I think you would benifet from a bit of full body conditioning. The more muscles in your body that are asking for energy, the more fat your body is going to burn to produce it. You can always drop the full body weight lifting once you have hit your target weight.

 

[borghe]

yeah, in distance running you are still going to (and want to) have fat on your body anyway. at least more fat than if you were looking at body building or even more of a sports athlete. like I said.. at this point start actually training and forget about fat loss. your body fat will settle into where it needs to be during training.

 

[elrechazado]

I'll admit I've stayed out of this thread for a while because of the heavy focus on Atkins, and being that weight loss for me is no longer a goal (5'9" 157lbs. currently) I did want to post pictures just to show people that NOT wanting to be on Atkins/low carb, and loving food, you are definitely able to take weight off and feel great. For those on Atkins, I do recognize that it works and that losing the weight really is the biggest struggle of it all, so keep at it. Anyway, finally pics.

Here is me Jan/Feb 2009. This was pretty close to my low point (heaviest). I was probably around 200-205 here..

[MG]http://i31.tinypic.com/hs8cqp.jpg[/IMG]

topped the scales at 205-210 by November 2009 when I went in for my appendectomy. Basically appendix was less than an hour from bursting according to the doctors. Bad enough that my orthoscopic appendectomy turned into an open one instead. :\ so instead of 2 or 3 pencil sized scars I have about 3 inches across my abs and a crapload of scar tissue right under the skin.. bah.. however thanks to my downtime from the open appy, I managed to lose about 10lbs. during recovery.. the downtime also managed to kill my business for good. all of that combined really put my life into perspective and started my goal of, well, living. getting healthy. not dying young.

here is me this weekend. 157lbs.

[IG]http://i29.tinypic.com/1z66pfr.jpg[/IMG]

basically all this time I have been doing heavy weight reps (10-12x3) and moderate running (3-8 miles two to four times a week). diet has been low fat (under 30g), high protein (1g:1lb), moderate carbs (1200-1600 calories during weight loss, about 2200-2700 calories since I stopped working to lose weight). The past two months I have been training to put in a 3:30 or lower time in my marathon this fall, but after doing a lot of research, this may be my first and last marathon as the body and muscle structure of an elite marathon runner isn't really what I'm going for overall. But really the marathon is more of just a "I used to look AND FEEL like the first picture, and a year later I put in a 7:40 pace in a marathon". I really felt like I was going to die before 40 in the first picture.. There was more to it than just my weight that you see.. needless to say I feel great now.

and for some reference of scale above... the polo in the first picture is a large. the t-shirt in the second pick is a medium. my waist in the first pick was 36". My waist in the bottom pic is 28".

Great job - height?

 

[borghe]

5'9"

edit - I will say.. the oddest thing of all is how clothes feel. Two examples.

Pants. I am a guy, obviously. Guys, fat guys especially, carry most of their weight above their waist. belly fat, love handles, etc. most of us have relatively narrowish hips and toothpicks for legs. But you need pants that fit, and if you are 36" around the belly, you need a pair of 36" waist pants. Have you figured out the problem yet? Those 36" pants, while fitting around your waist, are TOTALLY the wrong size for your skinny guy thighs, and possibly even waist and ass. so putting pants on all these years (probably REALLY started carrying this weight around 8-9 years ago) basically meant climbing into these ridiculously large pants just to button them up with not a ton of room left in the waist. a word of warning.. 36" pants are made for a normally proportioned person with a 36" waist.. probably not 5'9" with a tonal muscle quality of 160lbs. so now that I am shopping for size 28" pants/shorts, everything fits, well, like it's supposed to. Of course that means that pants are tighter to fit on, even though they are now looser around my waist (go figure there). but it also (and more importantly) means that I finally once again don't have droopy ass syndrome on all of my pants and everything hangs nicely on me.

Shirts. now this is a little bit more complicated. Growing up, the style (80s head banger) was to always wear big shirts. Even in 9th grade at 125 pounds, I was buying XL concert t-shirts. Working at the comic shop, ordering XL comic shirts. every t-shirt I've ever bought was XL. Consequently, buying work shirts (when I started working dress casual) I would buy large. I bought a few mediums here and there and was REALLY uncomfortable with how they fit... then when the weight gain started, I had to stay in large polos because medium was.. umm.. unflattering (as seen from the Large in the picture) and large t-shirts were pretty much tight on me.. ouch... so XL t-shirts stayed and large polos stayed. Now that I've put all of this effort into weight loss, I want to wear clothes that look right on me... pants were easy. They fit how they fit. But shirts... uggh.. this has been an adjustment. as mentioned above, the Kermit shirt is a medium. It feels REALLY uncomfortable. REALLLLLYYY uncomfortable. But, I like the picture above. I feel I look good in it and obviously the shirt looks totally normal in it. So I am at this point now where for the first time in my life I am wearing properly fitting shirts, and really just having a hard time with it. I am going to keep doing so though.. hell knows I look better as a result. I am just wondering more than anything how long it's going to take for them to feel normal.

anyway, just figured instead of answering the question I would share a little anecdote as well.

 

[NomarTyme]

Ok, I hate the smell of coconut oil. I can't freaking stand it.

I need a substitute. Any suggestions?

You can buy the refined version.

borghe use to look like the guy from Pawn stars to now looking like Simon Pegg!

 

[The_Inquisitor]

that's pretty much me (pics above). mid-150s for that height is definitely tricky. Either way it's definitely not overweight... but it is definitely possible to want to still lose some fat at that weight (which would lose weight) and still possible to be skinny with not a lot of fat (lean). I have fat around my stomach still... probably around 10-15% total body fat at this point. maybe even higher.. so at 157 if I'm 15% that's 24 pounds of fat. if I take off even 7 more pounds (150) it drops you to 11.3%. Put 7 more pounds of muscle back on and you're now at 10.8%. Same weight, a 33% reduction in body fat percentage and not in any way, shape or form unrealistic.

one of the things mentioned on this page though that anyone working out along with diet HAS TO remember... absolutely positively without question, you cannot do serious strength training AND lose weight at the same time. you are either putting weight on (muscle) or taking weight off (fat). however you absolutely cannot do both efficiently at the same time. after I decided my weight loss was done a month or two ago and started eating better (i.e. more) my weight lifting took off like a rocket. in those two months I've managed to lose another pound or two along the way which is great, but yeah..

this is a weight loss thread so I assume that's what people here are shooting for. If you are less concerned about weight loss than you are about strength training at any point, the best suggestion I can give you is to stop your diet and exercise targeted at weight loss and move over to strength training. Your body fat will continue to move towards it's own equilibrium and your strength training will benefit immensely.

It's kind of both. I grew up playing sports, but i was always overweight up until 2 years ago.

before(freshman year of college):

after(my b-day in march):

So I have pretty much made a lifestyle change over the past 2 years. I pretty much drink exclusively water with the occasional cup of coffee or smoothie. I have started cutting out chips for the most part recently. I now eat bags of cut up green peppers and eat much more fruit.

But at the same time, I am trying to be more active and less sedentary. Engineering unfortunately involves a lot of sitting and studying. I picked up photography so I can walk around and be active in my hobby rather than sitting around playing games all the time like I used to. I also participate in marching band during the falls at college and play the occasional intramural.

Running itself is a hobby too. But it has always been a dream of mine to run some big marathons. I was stronger last year in my consistency, but have lost the path recently. However, I have striving to pick things up again recently. Hope to run in a few 5k's before XMAS.

So it's not just about getting to be stronger. I am also trying to lose my worthless fast and make it more manageable. Hope this makes sense. (Yes, I think there is a big difference between those two pictures and I am proud of it.)

Edit: Christ I need to teach my sister to edit red eye out of her pictures. :lol :lol

 

[teh_pwn]

You can buy the refined version.

borghe use to look like the guy from Pawn stars to now looking like Simon Pegg!

Yeah I used refined, although I'd be curious if Prince Dalton/grumble has any input on whether or not the refinement process damages the oil, because I honestly don't know.

And congrats borghe.

 

[borghe]

It's kind of both. I grew up playing sports, but i was always overweight up until 2 years ago.

looking at your pics... yeah dude, stop participating in this thread in terms of looking for advice. you're done with the emphasis on fat loss IMHO (at least if I were you). instead get to serious training for long distance running (a good diet and training regimen) and your body will work out where it needs to be at. if you continue to concern yourself with fat loss you are really only going to hurt your training.

And congrats borghe.

thanks teh_pwn.. I know we don't always agree on diets in this thread but you definitely seem to help a lot of people in here and I really just want to say thank you for that. This is definitely one of my favorite threads on GAF and obviously one of the most personal ones. So go ahead and keep with the information and don't take it personally if from time to time I post a disagreeing response gotta give people options in this thread because there is no one way that everyone responds to perfectly.

 

[Carlisle]

I went off the low carb diet for about a month, gained about four lbs back, and then started it up again 2 weeks ago. Lost 8.5 lbs the first week, but only 1.5 the second (despite consistently having 20 or fewer carbs a day)

Oh well, I am now officially at 200 lbs. My heaviest was 243 sometime last year.

I've kept thinking that my goal weight is around 180 or 185 (I'm 5'11) but it really seems like I have more than 15 more lbs to lose. Still got a big stomach and big man titties :/

Wow, we've made almost the same progress in the same time. I was at 241 sometime last year and am now around 197. Only difference is I'm 6'3" so I'm shooting for 190-195. And I never did a low-carb diet, though I will be when I start P90X.

But even when I was just 5 lbs heavier, I still noticed the things you are seeing. We seem to carry our weight similarly. I felt like I still had a substantial gut and some slight boobular-protrusion. But in these last 5lbs or so, it's like the weight was taken directly from those areas. I'm only a couple pounds away from my goal now and until a couple weeks ago I too felt that my goal was too shallow and that I should extend it to perhaps 185. But now, I'm beginning to look a lot more like I had in mind. So I expect you might see a similar change with the next few pounds or so yourself.

Another possibility is that you may be retaining water. My man titties were a lot more pronounced before, but I noticed a nearly instant chest slimming when I started gorging myself on water every day... something that had not previously been a priority with my diet and exercise routine. If it's not already, make sure sufficient hydration is as high up on your priority list as the rest of your diet.

 

[Chinner]

borge and the inquisitor have some seriously nice results there. congrats.

 

[The_Inquisitor]

borge and the inquisitor have some seriously nice results there. congrats.

Thank you kindly! I feel much better now in all sorts of ways. Plus I am much more confident. Crazy how that works out.

looking at your pics... yeah dude, stop participating in this thread in terms of looking for advice. you're done with the emphasis on fat loss IMHO (at least if I were you). instead get to serious training for long distance running (a good diet and training regimen) and your body will work out where it needs to be at. if you continue to concern yourself with fat loss you are really only going to hurt your training.

Yeah I agree with this. I actually still try to run the Nike+ thread on the forum. I have gotten a little chubbier since the most recent photo I posted but not by much. I will graduate to the fitness thread. :lol :lol

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

Hmmm...a study that support the calories in/out method? Who knew!?

It confirms what we have known for years: that it's not fat versus carbohydrates. It's the calories that lead to weight loss.

Low Carb-, Low-Fat Diets Tied for Long-Term Weight Loss

 

[Chinner]

don't think anyone here was saying it doesn't work.

 

[Volcynika]

Been kinda glancing through this thread about how to take off some extra weight I gained due to some personal matters, but haven't decided on the best method to go about it yet. I work a job as a programmer about 9/10 hours a day Mon-Fri, and I'm not the best at putting together meals. Gonna look through the thread and see if anything stands out thats possible for me to do.

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

don't think anyone here was saying it doesn't work.

I guess you missed elrechazao's posts :lol

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Hmmm...a study that support the calories in/out method? Who knew!?



Low Carb-, Low-Fat Diets Tied for Long-Term Weight Loss

A study based on two groups of 'Obese' people loosing on average 15lbs. over 2 years? Those are pretty underwhelming results.

 

[Yaweee]

Been kinda glancing through this thread about how to take off some extra weight I gained due to some personal matters, but haven't decided on the best method to go about it yet. I work a job as a programmer about 9/10 hours a day Mon-Fri, and I'm not the best at putting together meals. Gonna look through the thread and see if anything stands out thats possible for me to do.

Depends what you mean by "meals". I've lost 20~25 pounds in the last 2.5 months with a huge part of my diet becoming frozen chicken (even with breading, which the low-carb crowd hates.) It's easy as shit to make. Just toss some on a cookie tray in the over for ~30 minutes until crispy, and put a little dipping sauce on the plate. Filling meals are roughly 400~500 calories. Chicken kiev, chicken fingers, chicken nuggets, chicken chunks, chicken patties; downs of brands and cut types are out there.

 

[dragonlife]

Been kinda glancing through this thread about how to take off some extra weight I gained due to some personal matters, but haven't decided on the best method to go about it yet. I work a job as a programmer about 9/10 hours a day Mon-Fri, and I'm not the best at putting together meals. Gonna look through the thread and see if anything stands out thats possible for me to do.

You can do it, man!

 

[thewhiterabbit]

Are you claiming that your body broke the laws of thermodynamics? If you're having a caloric deficit, you will definitely lose weight, period. What happened was that when you were eating around 1000 calories you metabolism slowed down to a crawl and your daily caloric deficit was really small, making weight loss almost imperceptible.

I will not argue against extremely low/zero cabs diets because I know from personal experience how they're incredible effective, but without a caloric deficit you will not burn fat, claiming otherwise is entering on superstition territory.

Exactly. Thats why when you calories restrict you have to do 2 things.

1. Continue to lower the amount of calories you eat as you lose. For every 10 pounds I would go 50 calories less. Maybe more. I use a app to track and regulate my calories. I enter my daily weight and every 10 pounds it recalculates my daily calorie goals.

2. Weight train. 2-3 days a week you have to weight train. This builds lean muscle which helps to boost the metabolism. Any calorie restricted diet will cause loss of lean tissue. Cardio is good for fat loss but we need to make sure we weight train to build back lean tissue.

I do do a simple weight training regiment with a 25lbs weight plate 3 days a week. I run for an hour the other 4. This morning my run was 5.6 miles.

One more thought on calorie counting. You need to be honest and accurate. You must weigh your food. If you don't weigh your food you have no clue what you really eat. When I first started weighing my food I was shocked at how off I was by eyeballing.

 

[Volcynika]

Depends what you mean by "meals". I've lost 20~25 pounds in the last 2.5 months with a huge part of my diet becoming frozen chicken (even with breading, which the low-carb crowd hates.) It's easy as shit to make. Just toss some on a cookie tray in the over for ~30 minutes until crispy, and put a little dipping sauce on the plate. Filling meals are roughly 400~500 calories. Chicken kiev, chicken fingers, chicken nuggets, chicken chunks, chicken patties; downs of brands and cut types are out there.

Ohh, I do love chicken. As for 'meals' I meant like recipes and stuff, basically things that are not just "insert into oven/microwave, heat to this point" and you're done. Any brands or anything you'd recommend?

 

[Yaweee]

Ohh, I do love chicken. As for 'meals' I meant like recipes and stuff, basically things that are not just "insert into oven/microwave, heat to this point" and you're done. Any brands or anything you'd recommend?

(it's hard for me to determine what constitutes a meal)

There are some very good brands of frozen chicken, and some fucking terrible ones.

Assuming you live in the US, Aldi's Kirkwood Farms brand is surprisingly good, both their Chicken Kievs and their patties. It's also relatively lean compared to other brands (like 15% fewer calories/gram than Walmart).

Walmart's Great Value brand is surprisingly good, especially their Boneless Chicken Chunks. Big and meaty, not dipshit little popcorn chicken bits.

Love Me Tenders brand tenders/fritters are among the best, and are surprisingly low calorie (100 per fairly large strip)

I just tried Pilgrim's Choice fritters, and those things (220 calories each) are fucking gargantuan. 2 are a meal, and a pretty filling one at that.

As for other easy "meals", frozen raviolis can be pretty damn good, either various brands that are baked and breaded, or Rosetto's regular square cheese raviolis. 5~10 minutes in boiling water with some microwaved sauce (optional) can be a good easy meal that is only a few hundred calories. Anything that comes packaged like a TV dinner is usually shit that is too mushy.

Taco Salad/Nachos can be easy meals to make. Buy a pound of lean ground beef, cut 1/4th of a pound, cook it on a stove top, and add 1/4th of a packet of taco seasoning. Just make sure you don't use excessive chips or unhealthy toppings, as that is the largest source of calories (or carbs) in the meal. It's a bit more time consuming than the other things, but it is cheap (~$2 per meal) and ground beef with seasoning is really hard to cook improperly outside of burning the fuck out of it.

Wild rice (Uncle Ben's or Rice-a-roni) is another staple of my diet. ~500 calories for a big meal, but there's a fair amount of protein and butter in it. Basically put everything in a pot, cook it really hot until it starts to boil, then cook it much lower heat until it is all absorbed. It requires very little skill or effort, and is, again, hard to screw up unless you add too much water or burn the hell out of it.

I still eat frozen pizzas some times, but it can be difficult to get the portions right. While the pizza is still frozen, break it into 3rds or 4ths on the counter top (slide it to the edge, apply pressure). Adding a little extra mozzarella or seasoning can make even shitty and cheap brands taste awesome. It's not ideal health food, but it can be a reasonably filling meal for around 400~500 calories.

Like the above poster says, honesty in calorie counting is super important. I keep a blue marker on my countertop to mark each serving that I take out. If the number of marks I get out of a package is less than what the package says it contains, I know I've screwed up and that I need to rethink how much I take out.

 

[Einbroch]

I'm getting those stupid little anti-stretch marks on the inside of my arm! They're ugly as sin but it's a good reminder to myself to keep it up and lets me know that I'm on the right track.

 

[elrechazado]

I guess you missed elrechazao's posts :lol

So did you evidently.

A study based on two groups of 'Obese' people loosing on average 15lbs. over 2 years? Those are pretty underwhelming results.

Yup, but reading just the headline seems to be enough for some people. And the whole criticism of low calorie low fat diets is the long term ineffectiveness, not short term results.

 

[Price Dalton]

Yeah I used refined, although I'd be curious if Prince Dalton/grumble has any input on whether or not the refinement process damages the oil, because I honestly don't know.

And congrats borghe.

Refined should be fine. It tolerates higher heat better than unrefined, virgin oil, and it's tasteless. It's pretty much all saturated fat, too, making it heat stable. Most studies showing coconut oil benefits use refined oil.

It's the hydrogenated coconut oil you have to watch out for (why you'd hydrogenate a mostly saturated fat totally fucking escapes me, though). Not surprisingly, the studies that show a detriment to coconut oil intake always use hydrogenated, industrial coconut oil.

 

[teh_pwn]

Hmmm...a study that support the calories in/out method? Who knew!?



Low Carb-, Low-Fat Diets Tied for Long-Term Weight Loss

This isn't a study. It's an article about a study with conclusions without any details on the diet, controls, etc. I'd be interested in the data behind the conclusions.

Also, nobody is saying that caloric restriction doesn't work. My point is that it doesn't have anything to do with causality. We know that hypothalamus plays a huge role. To me this study is like saying that abstinence only education works just as well as safe sex education in preventing teenage pregnancy. Indeed if people use willpower and stick with it, it does work.

This analogy is a bit faulty, but I think it works with people that do have leptin/insulin resistance.

Edit:
The "study" supports what I'm saying.

Those on the low-fat diet were told to eat 1,200-1,800 calories a day, with fewer than 30 percent of them from fat. Those on the low-carb diet were instructed to eat no more than 20 grams of carbs a day, although they could eat all the fat and protein they wanted.

And those who were on the low-carb diet did get one extra benefit: Their blood pressure and levels of "good" cholesterol improved a bit more than those who cut down on fat.

Would you rather eat until you're full, improve your blood lipids (high HDL on low carb probably means low triglyceride), and get the same results as someone eating 1200-1800 calories and starving? This is exactly my point - certain foods break the hypothalamus and cause excessive hunger.

You can infer that if the other diet group ate until they were full, they would get worse results or gain weight, otherwise the caloric restriction wouldn't be necessary.

I still think the study is inadequate in details.

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

This isn't a study. It's an article about a study with conclusions without any details on the diet, controls, etc. I'd be interested in the data behind the conclusions.

Also, nobody is saying that caloric restriction doesn't work. My point is that it doesn't have anything to do with causality. We know that hypothalamus plays a huge role. To me this study is like saying that abstinence only education works just as well as safe sex education in preventing teenage pregnancy. Indeed if people use willpower and stick with it, it does work.

This analogy is a bit faulty, but I think it works with people that do have leptin/insulin resistance.

I never said the link was to the study itself. The actual study is available in the Annals of Internal Medicine publication, as the article says. I would be surprised (and worried) if someone actually believed that Yahoo article was a study.

I hope you're not supporting elrechazao's misguided ideas, because we want people who come to this thread to have the proper information. People like him who imply calories in/out is fiction are themselves living in a fantasy.

Calories provide energy - I shouldn't have to quote a study to prove that, because it's fact. If you give your body more than it needs, it will store some of the excess as fat. If you don't give it enough, it will burn some fat. There are numerous other processes, terms and effects that I'm not mentioning, so it's not just calories in/out involved in fat loss. Metabolism, hormones, genetics and other factors all play a role. You don't just subtract what you ate from your maintenance and say "I burned 332 calories."

Ultimately though, it's the main factor. That's why it's the principle of all fat loss methods. Unless you have a legitimate medical condition that prevents fat loss (and I've never heard of such a thing), you will burn fat on a caloric deficit. Not debatable.

 

[grumble]

Frankly though, studies that are calorie-matched tend to result in very similar fat loss gains regardless of macro composition. Low-carb diets may help people who have problems with self-control and hunger due to higher protein content helping with satiety, but they don't intrinsically work better than a moderate-carb diet.

 

[borghe]

IMHO it all comes down to personal preference. The reason I don't prefer low-carb is simply because the diet, as in the meal makeup, is unappealing to me. To me personally it is more satisfying to put in a 600 calorie workout in a day and eat 2600 low fat calories than it is to cut out something I love (carby foods) and either not workout, or have less energy during that same 600 calorie workout. This isn't hyperbole, this is from personal experience.

With that being said, I recognize that not everyone has the time for many 600 calorie workouts during the week, or has the patience to only be losing 1-2lbs per week, wants to control portions or count calories, or even wants to put in any effort outside of dieting. That's all fine, but for me the tradeoff (giving up food I love) wasn't worth the benefit. Eat that piece of cake and run 20 more minutes on the treadmill. Yeah its an old fashioned mentality, but the pics above show that it works. Like I said to the teh_pwn though. Not everything works for everyone, and not everyone feels the same things are worth giving up or sacrificing.

It's the reason I sometimes get frustrated with this thread (the low carb emphasis) but if it's what most people in the thread are deciding to do, you also have to respect it.

 

[elrechazado]

I hope you're not supporting elrechazao's misguided ideas, because we want people who come to this thread to have the proper information.

Metabolism, hormones, genetics and other factors all play a role.

Stop supporting misguided ideas.

In other news, Fructose feeds cancer cells, as if we needed more reasons to avoid it:

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/70/15/6368.abstract

 

[betweenthewheels]

I'm new to this huge thread, this has probably been covered

At my heaviest I weighed 255lbs. I went on weight watchers for 6 months and I got down to 215lbs but I have gained 10lbs or so since I went off of weight watchers and started calorie counting with Lose It on my ipod.

Now I dont now what to do. I'm interested in going low carb, but I dont know much about it.
Are there any side effects (withdrawal) from the sudden lack of sugar?
Is it possible to comfortably carry on long term without carbs?

 

[teh_pwn]

I never said the link was to the study itself. The actual study is available in the Annals of Internal Medicine publication, as the article says. I would be surprised (and worried) if someone actually believed that Yahoo article was a study.

I hope you're not supporting elrechazao's misguided ideas, because we want people who come to this thread to have the proper information. People like him who imply calories in/out is fiction are themselves living in a fantasy.

Calories provide energy - I shouldn't have to quote a study to prove that, because it's fact. If you give your body more than it needs, it will store some of the excess as fat. If you don't give it enough, it will burn some fat. There are numerous other processes, terms and effects that I'm not mentioning, so it's not just calories in/out involved in fat loss. Metabolism, hormones, genetics and other factors all play a role. You don't just subtract what you ate from your maintenance and say "I burned 332 calories."

Ultimately though, it's the main factor. That's why it's the principle of all fat loss methods. Unless you have a legitimate medical condition that prevents fat loss (and I've never heard of such a thing), you will burn fat on a caloric deficit. Not debatable.

Jesus, the calories in/calories out response is like the "why we still got monkeys" of fat loss.

Again: We are not arguing that calories don't matter. If your total metabolism consumes more than it burns, you will gain some sort of tissue, most likely fat.

What we're arguing is that eating certain foods fixes the satiety feedback mechanism called hunger such that it is accurate based on not only the total number of calories needed per day, but based on your total # of calories in your fat reserve. The more body fat you have, the more leptin, and the more a healthy hypothalamus is going to suppress hunger & increase metabolism. It's not that complicated.

In that study you linked, clearly the Atkins diet people had a healthier appetite if they could eat as much as they wanted and they didn't eat any more than the calorie counters. That's the whole point.

I'm not saying that everyone should eat low carb. It's an option.

Really the science points to eliminating:
-fructose
-wheat/gluten
-omega 6 fats with Linoleic acid

And increase:
-fermented foods

There are other diets that meet these critieria that aren't low carb, like the Japanese diet.

And honestly you don't have to follow my advice. Others have had success with exercise and portion control. That's cool too.

 

[elrechazado]

I'm new to this huge thread, this has probably been covered

At my heaviest I weighed 255lbs. I went on weight watchers for 6 months and I got down to 215lbs but I have gained 10lbs or so since I went off of weight watchers and started calorie counting with Lose It on my ipod.

Now I dont now what to do. I'm interested in going low carb, but I dont know much about it.
Are there any side effects (withdrawal) from the sudden lack of sugar?
Is it possible to comfortably carry on long term without carbs?

Low carb diets (diet in the sense of a lifestyle of what you consume, not a short term magic pill) allow you to eat to satiety, and not count calories, as opposed to restricting yourself to fewer calories. This is often extremely helpful in losing weight, as you simply switch what you are eating, rather than reducing what you are eating. That is a generalization, but proved by many studies.

You don't have to be sudden about it, as you can target certain things to eliminate first - example, do you drink soda? Cut that out. You don't have to go from what you normally eat to a sudden zero carb crash. Cut out the worst sources of fructose (table sugar and high fructose corn syrup), then work on the bad starches and white flours. Just doing that will let you see if this provides positive results, and you can proceed to eliminating more as you need.

I found this to be a helpful primer:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3299911

 

[betweenthewheels]

Low carb diets (diet in the sense of a lifestyle of what you consume, not a short term magic pill) allow you to eat to satiety, and not count calories, as opposed to restricting yourself to fewer calories. This is often extremely helpful in losing weight, as you simply switch what you are eating, rather than reducing what you are eating. That is a generalization, but proved by many studies.

You don't have to be sudden about it, as you can target certain things to eliminate first - example, do you drink soda? Cut that out. You don't have to go from what you normally eat to a sudden zero carb crash. Cut out the worst sources of fructose (table sugar and high fructose corn syrup), then work on the bad starches and white flours. Just doing that will let you see if this provides positive results, and you can proceed to eliminating more as you need.

I found this to be a helpful primer:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3299911

Thanks for the help! That thread was really informative, although difficult to take in all that new info.

Any recommended iphone apps?

Are there any other good sources that could help keep me on track?

 

[Schlep]

Any recommended iphone apps?

I use MyNetDiary on the iPad, which is really good. There's an iPhone version, but I haven't used it.

 

[hsukardi]

I'm new to this huge thread, this has probably been covered

At my heaviest I weighed 255lbs. I went on weight watchers for 6 months and I got down to 215lbs but I have gained 10lbs or so since I went off of weight watchers and started calorie counting with Lose It on my ipod.

Now I dont now what to do. I'm interested in going low carb, but I dont know much about it.
Are there any side effects (withdrawal) from the sudden lack of sugar?
Is it possible to comfortably carry on long term without carbs?

I was a heavy carb eater. I got off that course and experienced a sugar crash for about a week or so -- during that time I found it extremely difficult to concentrate and the mind was foggy. It was unlike anything I've ever been through.

After that everything's been really good. I've since maintained a low/no carb diet with occasional carb consumption when I'm travelling. Lost ~15lbs in four weeks.