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[Deleted member 17706]

So I started this "slow carb" diet from the 4 Hour Body book, and I've lost 5 pounds since I started on Tuesday. I'm extremely impressed so far. This is my first "cheat day", but since I actually like the food I've been eating, I'm only cheating by drinking beer.

The only exercise I've been doing consists of "air squats", "wall presses" and sit ups. I look forward to seeing how far I can take this, and how much I can lose. I'm around 200 lbs round now, but I hope to get back down to 160 or so (where I was up until mid-2007 or so).

 

[Domino Theory]

You're golden. Although it's pretty damn tasty with heavy cream (or coconut milk, if you don't do dairy).

Cool beans. I like my coffee just black. It has a certain elegance to it.

Also, I have a few questions for anyone who can answer:

1) I was reading teh_pwn's post about pastured milk and was wondering if that's any different than ultra-pasteurized milk? Where can I buy pastured milk?

2) I've always heard from here and other places about balancing your Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio but how can you even tell how much Omega 6 you're taking in? It's pretty easy to measure Omega 3 since it's something I take on its own (4 teaspoons from Carlson's Fish Oil), but Omega 6 comes from vegetable oil and other places that aren't easy to measure. How am I supposed to know on a daily basis when the ratio in my body is correct?

3) What is inflammation?

4) Any natural ways for a 53 year old woman to lower her bad cholesterol? My mother had her test results a while back and it said she had high LDL (although her HDL was in the good range) and that she has fatty liver or whatever it's called. For perspective, she eats whole foods most of the time (occassionally eats out), is a smoker (trying to get her to quit) and coffee drinker (at least 3 cups a day, I'd say).

The same test, however, said she was severely Vitamin D deficient so they prescribed her Vitamin D3 softgels that had 50,000IU in each for her to take once a week for three months and she's noticed a substantial change in her mood, fatigue, stress levels and energy levels (all for the better after taking Vitamin D) and was wondering if her low Vitamin D levels had anything to do with her bad cholesterol?

 

[BronzeWolf]

1) I was reading teh_pwn's post about pastured milk and was wondering if that's any different than ultra-pasteurized milk? Where can I buy pastured milk?

Pastured milk comes from cows that graze grass.
Ultra-Pasteurized milk is milk that has been boiled at higher temps.

I don't think ultra-pasteurization is really useful. I also don't think raw milk is at all recommendable.

2) I've always heard from here and other places about balancing your Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio but how can you even tell how much Omega 6 you're taking in? It's pretty easy to measure Omega 3 since it's something I take on its own (4 teaspoons from Carlson's Fish Oil), but Omega 6 comes from vegetable oil and other places that aren't easy to measure. How am I supposed to know on a daily basis when the ratio in my body is correct?

Best way to know is to actually get a lipid profile test done. It's easy, cheap and fast. If your HDL:VLDL is less than 2:1 and more than 3:1, you need to adjust. Otherwise, simply being careful about not eating too much junk is enough IMO (food cooked in oils instead of butter and lard)

3) What is inflammation?

I suppose you are talking about atherosclerosis, which is inflammation of the arteries. Have you ever had a rash? Something similar happens to the wall of your arteries. In the process of healing the artery a cholesterol, plackets and calcium wall is formed to subside the inflammation. Why does this happen? Primary by oxidation of the lippoproteins responsible for carrying around cholesterol and triglycerides around.

4) Any natural ways for a 53 year old woman to lower her bad cholesterol? My mother had her test results a while back and it said she had high LDL (although her HDL was in the good range) and that she has fatty liver or whatever it's called. For perspective, she eats whole foods most of the time (occassionally eats out), is a smoker (trying to get her to quit) and coffee drinker (at least 3 cups a day, I'd say).

Can you tell us the actual numbers? Also, get a real lipid profile test. LDL does not correlate as well to actual diseases as the HDL:VLDL ratio. We also need to know her actual diet: "Eats whole foods" may mean something different to her than to us.

Also, that's too much caffeine, and the smoking surely doesn't help at all.

The same test, however, said she was severely Vitamin D deficient so they prescribed her Vitamin D3 softgels that had 50,000IU in each for her to take once a week for three months and she's noticed a substantial change in her mood, fatigue, stress levels and energy levels (all for the better after taking Vitamin D) and was wondering if her low Vitamin D levels had anything to do with her bad cholesterol?

I don't know of a relationship between Vitamin D and cholesterol, but I know that vitamin D is pretty much mandatory for post-menopausal women. Two tips though:

1) Try to get vitamin D3, not D2, it's slightly more effective
2) I would switch the 50,000 IU's from weekly to 4,000 daily. I wonder if the weekly megadose carries on better than equivalent daily doses

 

[Domino Theory]

Can you tell us the actual numbers? Also, get a real lipid profile test. LDL does not correlate as well to actual diseases as the HDL:VLDL ratio.

Total Cholesterol: 233
Triglycerides: 125
HDL: 59
VLDL: 25
LDL: 149

 

[BronzeWolf]

HDL:VLDL
59:25
2.36

It's a good ratio. Ttriglycerides are good too.

Those are good numbers in general

 

[Domino Theory]

HDL:VLDL
59:25
2.36

It's a good ratio. Ttriglycerides are good too.

Those are good numbers in general

My HDL: VLDL ratio is 3.41 (41:12) from the last time I had my blood test (November '10). Is that good in regards to the Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio?

 

[BronzeWolf]

My HDL: VLDL ratio is 3.41 (41:12) from the last time I had my blood test (November '10). Is that good in regards to the Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio?

It's excellent. A range from 2:1 to 3:1 is good. A 4:1 is too much

 

[teh_pwn]

2) I've always heard from here and other places about balancing your Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio but how can you even tell how much Omega 6 you're taking in? It's pretty easy to measure Omega 3 since it's something I take on its own (4 teaspoons from Carlson's Fish Oil), but Omega 6 comes from vegetable oil and other places that aren't easy to measure. How am I supposed to know on a daily basis when the ratio in my body is correct?

Omega6 mostly comes from vegetable oil, and grain fed meat. Generally the best approach to fixing the ratio is to remove vegetable oils and eat grass fed meat or lean grain fed meat, and then supplement a bit of omega3s.

3) What is inflammation?

A biological response by the body that increases circulation and immune function to speed up healing. At the right times, it's a good thing. In excess, it can cause collateral damage to your own cells.

So in the context of heart disease, the question really is "why is damage occurring to the arteries that is causing an inflammation response".

You could spend a few days reading this to learn more than you every would want:
http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/

Inflammation is what causes wounds and bug bites to swell. This is good because it speeds up circulation and healing.

Inflammation is also found in people with IBS, chronic joint inflammation, autoimmune disorders like lupus, eczema, allergies, etc.

4) Any natural ways for a 53 year old woman to lower her bad cholesterol? My mother had her test results a while back and it said she had high LDL (although her HDL was in the good range) and that she has fatty liver or whatever it's called. For perspective, she eats whole foods most of the time (occassionally eats out), is a smoker (trying to get her to quit) and coffee drinker (at least 3 cups a day, I'd say).

Cholesterol is high either because it's the body's reaction to whatever is causing the damaged arteries, or for some other reason. Lowering it does nothing to reduce the risk of heart disease. Statins slightly reduce the risk of heart disease because they reduce inflammation.
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/7/21/statins-and-the-cholesterol-hypothesis-part-i.html

See this chart:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html

See how total mortality goes up with low cholesterol too? Statins aren't the best way to increase life span.

The same test, however, said she was severely Vitamin D deficient so they prescribed her Vitamin D3 softgels that had 50,000IU in each for her to take once a week for three months and she's noticed a substantial change in her mood, fatigue, stress levels and energy levels (all for the better after taking Vitamin D) and was wondering if her low Vitamin D levels had anything to do with her bad cholesterol?

What you call "bad cholesterol" is LDL. Low density lipoprotein.

EDIT: I should have read more. You listed VLDL. Better, but still correlation not causation. Continuing my lazily edited post:

Contains the exact same cholesterol as HDL. Read the links above. Basically a subtype of LDL - small, dense, is somewhat correlated with heart disease. It still really doesn't say anything about causality. It would be like saying that because fire trucks appear at fires, fire trucks cause fires. It's absurd.

Vitamin D is created from cholesterol in the body, like most hormones and pro-hormones. Part of the reason people suspect mortality increases with low cholesterol is because the person becomes deficient in hormones.

Personally I would recommend a light tan from sunlight, then a similar ratio of UVB:UVA tanning booth if that's not possible, and then vitamin D3 if that's not possible. The body doesn't just make vitamin D in response to UVB radiation (it makes tons of stuff) and these studies that correlation vitamin D levels don't control this. Human evolution heavily selected people's pigmentation for the right range of these chemicals produced, so it's pretty damn important.. Don't get a sunburn though, dermatologists are right to be afraid of that. But a light tan is far better for you than avoiding the sun for fear of cancer.

 

[Sweedishrodeo]

i am not going through 80 pages and i don't know if this belongs in here, but here goes.

i put on an extra 70 pounds to throw shot put and discus in high school. after freshman year training at college, i decided to focus on my school-work. losing the weight was easy, but i wasn't smart enough to know about moisturizing my skin. i have stretch marks on my sides and have recently been using Bio-oil to soften their appearance. After a whole bottle they do appear more smooth with my regular skin. I'm going to do a second bottle to see what happens, and will report after.

 

[Akim]

Low Carbers....Check out my Meatza

Ground Beef crust
tomato sauce
pepperoni
onion
green pepper
mushroom
mozzarella cheese

 

[BronzeWolf]

Stop it! I am hungry!!!

Recipe?

 

[teh_pwn]

Yeah, I decided not to do the low carb pizza crust because it didn't sound palatable or easy to make. Meatza seems like a good alternative. Link to recipes.

 

[Akim]

this is the recipe I followed

http://www.justinowings.com/b/index.php/me/meatza-meatza

 

[Mario]

Quick update on my progress. Just started week 4 of my 4 week regime. Have lost 16 pounds so far. Hope for at least another 6 by this time next week and am kicking it up a notch to help make sure I get there.

Also, thanks for the LeanGains.com link further up the thread. Really interesting information there, and some good ideas to help keep the weight off over the longer term.

 

[WrathOfOtaibah]

Camp I: Meat and vegetables are healthy. Reasons:
-Evolution by natural selection as a theory is in direct conflict with the idea that the foods that people ate for 99.999% of human history increase mortality. They just don't fit.
-Analysis of paleolithic skeletons shows good physique, perfect teeth, average height of about 5"10.
-Analysis of neolithic man shows a dramatic drop of in human health. Skeletons are short, teeth are decayed.
-Reverse migration studies over the 1800s-early 1900s showed that just about every tribe in the world was healthy on their original diet (meat and vegetables), but rates of cancer, diabetes, obesity, and tooth decay started as soon as western diet was introduced. In the reverse migration cases, health returned.
-The obesity epidemic started in the 1970s, when the USDA food pyramid came out shunning meat, fat, and promoting 12 servings of grains.

I'd be interested to know if my bad diet (eating junk) is what resulted in me being 5'11" and 275 lbs. I was supposed to be 6'5" according to early estimates. Probably not much to it but I found this part of the post interesting.

 

[teh_pwn]

I'd be interested to know if my bad diet (eating junk) is what resulted in me being 5'11" and 275 lbs. I was supposed to be 6'5" according to early estimates. Probably not much to it but I found this part of the post interesting.

Honestly, I don't have a clue. While we eat poorly today compared to paleolithic era, we have fortified our food with minerals and we get basic proteins and fats that were preventing us from growing to our complete genetic height. The United States is nearly as tall as the paleo skeletons are. But the neolithic skeletons and ones from Europe just a few hundred years ago were not much higher than 5 feet. North Korea is a modern example of stunted growth.

The big problem with grains and legumes in terms of human height is the phytic acid from the seeds. They leech minerals. We fortify flour now by law to prevent major problems.

6'5" is pretty tall. I think paleo height was just under 6' so I think you're doing alright.

Grains and legumes still cause issues due to lectins, but it's a horizontal problem.

this is the recipe I followed

http://www.justinowings.com/b/index.php/me/meatza-meatza

Thanks, I'll try this over the next 2 weeks. I've got a bunch of steaks and salads to eat before I get to it.

 

[teh_pwn]

Baked Chicken, Coconut oil, and the alleged KFC seasoning recipe made a pretty good meal. I removed most of the salt. I could alternate between this and steak, add some vegetables and eat this for life.

 

[Darklord]

I thought I'd ask here rather than making a new thread but what's the best fitness equipment to get for losing weight? I'm probably after stomach and thighs mostly but really anything is good. I was looking at a rowing machine because you use arms and legs(right?). Any advice?

 

[grumble]

I thought I'd ask here rather than making a new thread but what's the best fitness equipment to get for losing weight? I'm probably after stomach and thighs mostly but really anything is good. I was looking at a rowing machine because you use arms and legs(right?). Any advice?

You can't spot reduce fat.

If you are looking for weight loss, then a rowing machine is awesome. My personal favourite cardio. Swimming pool is good too, as is running around outside.

If you're interested in maximum fat loss, then the best equipment is a barbell. This does the dual job of both preserving (or maybe even developing) your muscle while burning calories. This means you build the muscle, burn the fat.

Both are obviously a good idea.

 

[Darklord]

You can't spot reduce fat.

If you are looking for weight loss, then a rowing machine is awesome. My personal favourite cardio. Swimming pool is good too, as is running around outside.

If you're interested in maximum fat loss, then the best equipment is a barbell. This does the dual job of both preserving (or maybe even developing) your muscle while burning calories. This means you build the muscle, burn the fat.

Both are obviously a good idea.

I might try both rowing and barbell then. I'd definitely like to swap fat for muscle. Thanks for the advice.

Also, is there anyway to help reduce saggy skin when losing weight? I understand I probably will get some but the less the better.

 

[grumble]

I might try both rowing and barbell then. I'd definitely like to swap fat for muscle. Thanks for the advice.

Also, is there anyway to help reduce saggy skin when losing weight? I understand I probably will get some but the less the better.

Saggy skin depends on how much weight you lose, your age, your genetics, how quickly you lose the weight, how long you've been heavy and a few other factors. No one can tell how your skin will end up. Once you've lost the weight then leave your skin alone for a while, it tends to tighten up somewhat over time if it's initially a bit loose (which it often isn't).

Aside from that, you're stuck. You can't exercise skin away, and if you want to get rid of a lot of extra loose skin you'll have to get it surgically removed. Most people do not come close to having to do this.

 

[Diatribe1974]

Low Carbers....Check out my Meatza

Ground Beef crust
tomato sauce
pepperoni
onion
green pepper
mushroom
mozzarella cheese

Bet there's about a billion calories in that.

1 Billion Delicious Calories.

 

[MWS Natural]

Intermittent fasting. I cannot fucking stress this enough. The whole premise behind the leangains approach is fat loss and muscle growth. If you're aiming for fat loss as a primary objective and not thinking much of muscle growth, increase your fasted state by at least 2 hours.

Read this and this (use Chrome or FF to read them because leangains.com runs like shit on IE).

Woah just read through a bunch of this guys website and it's like totally opposite of how I always thought about working out and dieting. I am going to buy some BCAA and give this method a try.

12-1 PM or around lunch/noon: Meal one. Approximately 20-25% of daily total calorie intake.
4-5 PM: Pre-workout meal. Roughly equal to the first meal.
8-9 PM: Post-workout meal (largest meal).

 

[Ferrio]

Low Carbers....Check out my Meatza

Ugh. I'm doing the whole low carb thing, but I'm not stupid. Way to ruin a diet eating that.

 

[Akim]

Ugh. I'm doing the whole low carb thing, but I'm not stupid. Way to ruin a diet eating that.

lol wat?


Anyways: I hit 201 today (starting weight 298)

Didn't hit my goal for 198 by my birthday. I'm still celebrating tonight though. Cheat cheat.

 

[jts]

Ugh. I'm doing the whole low carb thing, but I'm not stupid. Way to ruin a diet eating that.

Not really. As long as the ingredients are low-carb, it is a low-carb meal, approved for a low carb diet.

Of course, an exaggerated quantity can build those low-carb (percentage) ingredients into a a sum of sizeable amount of carbs, and other nasty stuff like sodium, etc.

Other than that, it's fine.

 

[Akim]

Not really. As long as the ingredients are low-carb, it is a low-carb meal, approved for a low carb diet.

Of course, an exaggerated quantity can build those low-carb (percentage) ingredients into a a sum of sizeable amount of carbs, and other nasty stuff like sodium, etc.

Other than that, it's fine.

it's not like you are eating the whole thing, it's basically just beef, cheese, pepporoni, a few veggies, and tomato sauce (just a little, this has the highest carbs). Just control yourself and use moderation.

 

[Xelinis]

Ugh. I'm doing the whole low carb thing, but I'm not stupid. Way to ruin a diet eating that.

Only if you eat the whole thing in one feral sweep. Otherwise, it's actually an ideal low-carb meal.

 

[teh_pwn]

Ugh. I'm doing the whole low carb thing, but I'm not stupid. Way to ruin a diet eating that.

It's a lot of calories, but if the diet is working you'll stop eating before you finish it because you're no longer hungry.

 

[BronzeWolf]

I bet you get very full very fast with that thing

 

[Domino Theory]

this is the recipe I followed

http://www.justinowings.com/b/index.php/me/meatza-meatza

Just made this and am currently eating it.

Holy
Fucking
Shit

SO GOOD. Unbelievable. I get to have pizza again!

 

[teh_pwn]

Just made this and am currently eating it.

Holy
Fucking
Shit

SO GOOD. Unbelievable. I get to have pizza again!

Heh, I would be cautious if you think it's this good. The science of satiety is still in the works, so this may be a case of "we don't know everything, but empirically this food makes me overeat".

Reminds me of when I had lemon fish oil + sugar free yogurt and it was awesome. Turned out the fish oil was blended with sugar. Doesn't taste as good without that sugar.

 

[Mike Works]

I started a diet on New Years after having put on the holiday pounds. Just weighed myself today; lost 9 lbs in 4 weeks without exercising once! Hooray diet!

 

[Joe]

So GAF how bad are starch carbs? Pasta has been an absolute staple of my diet for ever (literally). My parents are italian and we just eat it every day.

Ive been exercising lately (30-60 minutes of vigorous cardio) and watching my calorie intake. Im trying to create a -500 calorie swing per day which i think im easily doing but im worried about the roughly ~80g of pasta (and misc starch) carbs im eating every day. How detrimental is this to my goals of getting in shape?

I love my pasta and would hate to take it out of my diet even if its just half the time.

 

[teh_pwn]

So GAF how bad are starch carbs? Pasta has been an absolute staple of my diet for ever (literally). My parents are italian and we just eat it every day.

Ive been exercising lately (30-60 minutes of vigorous cardio) and watching my calorie intake. Im trying to create a -500 calorie swing per day which i think im easily doing but im worried about the roughly ~80g of pasta (and misc starch) carbs im eating every day. How detrimental is this to my goals of getting in shape?

I love my pasta and would hate to take it out of my diet even if its just half the time.

It really depends.

In some people, lectins from gluten grains cause leptin resistance. Fructose overload of the liver also causes leptin resistance, but the threshold differs with people. Leptin is read by the brain as sort of your fuel gauge. It is how your body decides to govern hunger and energy levels. Resistance makes your body fat setpoint higher, making it hard to lose weight.

Potatoes and rice are fine if you're already thin.

 

[Messi]

Still on track still losing weight slow but surely. Confidence building day by day. This is a feeling ill never forget. It is the same feeling that will stop me ever putting that weight back on.

Life changing stuff.

 

[Joe]

It really depends.

In some people, lectins from gluten grains cause leptin resistance. Fructose overload of the liver also causes leptin resistance, but the threshold differs with people. Leptin is read by the brain as sort of your fuel gauge. It is how your body decides to govern hunger and energy levels. Resistance makes your body fat setpoint higher, making it hard to lose weight.

Potatoes and rice are fine if you're already thin.

Thanks a lot. I learned a lot from researching leptin resistance.

Its only been 2 weeks but im finding it hard to lose weight. I even gained a half pound since last week and i just dont get it. Im gonna stick with it though, maybe i just need to break through a barrier?

My body fat % did go down .7% though in the past week. Should i be encouraged? I realize the # isnt very accurate but i use it for the trends.

 

[1stStrike]

I am now taking donations for a set of new clothes

 

[hockeypuck]

LDL does not correlate as well to actual diseases as the HDL:VLDL ratio. We also need to know her actual diet: "Eats whole foods" may mean something different to her than to us.

The mainstream medical teaching is that total cholesterol and LDL levels matter more than ratios. And even then I could not find any clinical trials on PubMed looking at HDL to VLDL ratios, only HDL to LDL ratios. Since you speak with the authority of someone who seems like he has a medical background and possibly even treated people, what well-researched clinical evidence can you provide to back up your claim?

 

[rezuth]

I know this is a dumb question but is chicken wok (just some japanese soy sauce, sesame seeds, garlic and chili) with rice really unhealthy? Its like my main dish and I love it but I recently started working out hard again and I wonder if I should drop it.

 

[BronzeWolf]

The new USDA dietary guidelines for 2010-2015 are up now. I was ready to get angry, but they ARE an improvement over the 2005 ones, although a small one.

Here is a review by summertomatoe, a wholefood blogger that is not as up to date with nutrition as some of the people here, but has good ideas:

For the first time they prominently focus on the obesity epidemic and the population's need to lose weight. Emphasis on EATING LESS unhealthy foods.
Eat less: "solid fats" aka saturated and trans fats, sugar, salt and refined grains. This is unfortunately a little cryptic.
Translation: Eat less junk and processed foods
Drink water instead of sugary drinks. Yes!
Eat more nutrient dense foods: vegetables, fruits, whole grains, lowfat dairy, seafood, lean meats/poultry, beans, nuts & seeds. Agreed! Though I consider dairy optional.
I'm happy they emphasized eating more whole foods, not just nutrients.
"Half your plate should be vegetables." Woohoo!
Good emphasis on replacing less healthy choices with healthier ones (e.g "solid fats" with healthy oils, refined grains with whole grains, meat with seafood)
Emphasis on physical activity is good, though this has very little impact on energy balance since even strenuous exercise burns relatively few calories.

It's still based on the balanced diet mind you, but the focus is shifting away from extreme low-fats that led to shitty healthy over-the-counter-and-off-the-fridge packaged products to less processed and better cooked foods.

Much more work needs to be done to keep shifting this away from the meat kills you! camp

 

[BronzeWolf]

I know this is a dumb question but is chicken wok (just some japanese soy sauce, sesame seeds, garlic and chili) with rice really unhealthy? Its like my main dish and I love it but I recently started working out hard again and I wonder if I should drop it.

Neither chicken nor rice are really unhealthy. Rice can be a little bit too starchy for people with insulin resistance, but otherwise it's not really that bad, as traditional Japanese diet has shown.

 

[teh_pwn]

The mainstream medical teaching is that total cholesterol and LDL levels matter more than ratios. And even then I could not find any clinical trials on PubMed looking at HDL to VLDL ratios, only HDL to LDL ratios. Since you speak with the authority of someone who seems like he has a medical background and possibly even treated people, what well-researched clinical evidence can you provide to back up your claim?

If it's a matter of authority, you win. Then again I don't think we are giving professional medical advice over neoGAF.

If you're curious, you may be interested in reading these sometimes:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/260/13/1917.full.pdf+html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-stuck-at-starting.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/07/diet-heart-hypothesis-oxidized-ldl-part.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/08/diet-heart-hypothesis-oxidized-ldl-part.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search/label/Cardiovascular disease
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/08/saturated-fat-consumption-still-isnt.html
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/7/21/statins-and-the-cholesterol-hypothesis-part-i.html

I'm guessing you'll be disappointed with the quality of the review process of these studies referenced. If that's the case, could you provide references of scientific studies that form the basis of the lipid hypothesis that are up to your standard?

 

[teh_pwn]

The new USDA dietary guidelines for 2010-2015 are up now. I was ready to get angry, but they ARE an improvement over the 2005 ones, although a small one.

An improvement, yes. But not much will change until subsidies for HFCS and linoleic acid are removed. Telling people to eat less doesn't work if their hormones are telling them to eat more.

If I got to Whole Foods, generally people are fit. The people that go to the bakery tend to be chubby. But if I got to HEB (regular Texas supermarket) everyone is mega obese and looks sick/beaten up. Everything in the store packaged basically has soybean oil and/or some form of fructose. Not that everything in HEB will do that, but the vast majority of items do. Their produce, spices, and some oils/fats are fine.

But say you get something like cereal, yogurt, juice, and hell even their packaged meat and buttermilk. It's all sugar and soybeans. They are there because they are cheap. And they are cheap because the government subsidizes them. Reminds me of the long period of time when tobacco was shunned but also subsidized.

 

[BronzeWolf]

The mainstream medical teaching is that total cholesterol and LDL levels matter more than ratios. And even then I could not find any clinical trials on PubMed looking at HDL to VLDL ratios, only HDL to LDL ratios. Since you speak with the authority of someone who seems like he has a medical background and possibly even treated people, what well-researched clinical evidence can you provide to back up your claim?

You can search the reference for total cholesterol almost unequivocal lack of influence on heart diseases by yourself. I will not speak of that, since the science is widely available. I will explain a little bit of the mechanism of VHDL and why it is important, I think I remember you from before and you have medical training, but I'll try to explain this for other people as well.

Triglycerides are one of the most important energy transports in the body. These are converted into fatty acids at both the adipose fat cells (body fat) and at the cells that require them.

In order to move these Triglycerides around, the body uses molecules called lipoproteins, these lipoproteins are the ones that transport triglycerides, along with cholesterol around. There are many types of Lipoproteins, and they differ by their density. The high density lipoproteins (HDL) are smaller and denser. These HDL transport helps removing cholesterol from atheromas (artery clotting) since they are cholesterol transports, specially after delivering triglycerides to the cells.

In contrast, LDL is a lower density that HDL, but LDL itself varies in size. Most LDL is larger, fluffy and with lots of cholesterol and triglycerides filling it up. VLDL in contrast is smaller, much more denser, has less cholesterol and is prone to getting stuck and causing oxidation. All LDL begins it's life as VLDL produced by the liver, and we calculate that by dividing the total number of cholesterol over the number of ApoB proteins found (one per VLDL and LDL). The more cholesterol and the smaller number of ApoB proteins found, the higher the number of fluffier denser LDL there.

VLDL is the precursor of LDL.

All of these molecules were discovered by John Gofman who published this article in 1966 that takes into account previous and contemporary epidemiological data to support it's thesis.

You are right in the sense that most literature marks LDL levels as the precursors for Heart disease but that neglects to describe a causal relationship. Not all LDL is atherogenic. The causal relationship is that VLDL creates more atheromas while LDL does not and HDL cleans them. As such, diet that elevate HDL, diminish VLDL and do whatever to regular LDL can be less atherogenic.

This is what really is found in the in the microbiology and diabetes literature. The problem is that VLDL measurements are not as reliable as LDL.

Atherosclerosis: Diet and Drugs

which references to various Krauss research from 1995 to 1998 and Grundy in 2002:

Regardless, at preset, elevations of LDL+VLDL-C (or total apo B) nevertheless appear to be a more appropriate target of lipid-lowering therapy than LDL-C in persons with the metabolic syndrome.

Small LDL and Its Clinical Importance as a New CAD Risk Factor: A Female Case Study also includes many references in

One relatively new risk factor that has received considerable attention in both the medical and lay media is the small low-density lipoprotein (LDL) trait.[1-4] This issue gains added importance when one considers that the majority of CAD cannot be attributed solely to elevations in LDL cholesterol (LDL-C)...

But by far the most complete reference is found in the medscape article

Beyond LDL-C: The Relationship Between HDL-C, Atherosclerosis and Coronary Heart Disease which quotes

The LDL-C/HDL-C and total cholesterol/HDL-C ratio has also been used to estimate cardiovascular risk[6-8,20]. However, these ratios do not focus on individual LDL-C and HDL-C values and therefore are not part of the core statements for target values set in several guidelines[6-8].

 

[betweenthewheels]

I am now taking donations for a set of new clothes

Shopping for clothes is one of my favourite effects of weight loss. It's no longer a painful ordeal of clothes not fitting in the change room and leaving empty handed and depressed.

Congrats on the loss btw

 

[grumble]

An improvement, yes. But not much will change until subsidies for HFCS and linoleic acid are removed. Telling people to eat less doesn't work if their hormones are telling them to eat more.

If I got to Whole Foods, generally people are fit. The people that go to the bakery tend to be chubby. But if I got to HEB (regular Texas supermarket) everyone is mega obese and looks sick/beaten up. Everything in the store packaged basically has soybean oil and/or some form of fructose. Not that everything in HEB will do that, but the vast majority of items do. Their produce, spices, and some oils/fats are fine.

But say you get something like cereal, yogurt, juice, and hell even their packaged meat and buttermilk. It's all sugar and soybeans. They are there because they are cheap. And they are cheap because the government subsidizes them. Reminds me of the long period of time when tobacco was shunned but also subsidized.

Well, that might be a common cause issue. People who eat at Whole Foods care more about their health than people who shop at Discount Mart. There are cultural differences; they aren't the same demographic.

 

[Messi]

Shopping for clothes is one of my favourite effects of weight loss. It's no longer a painful ordeal of clothes not fitting in the change room and leaving empty handed and depressed.

Congrats on the loss btw

I have had 3 changes of clothes sizes, it feels great but my wallet crys every time I buy new clothes. lol.

I do agree on it being depressing when stuff did not fit. I was a 5-6xl tshirt guy at one point. with a 56' waist. Now I am 1xl and a 38' waist.

FEELS GOOD MAN!

 

[BronzeWolf]

Well, that might be a common cause issue. People who eat at Whole Foods care more about their health than people who shop at Discount Mart. There are cultural differences; they aren't the same demographic.

That's what I was thinking too. It's missing the causality. But it's a good proof of principle.

 

[teh_pwn]

That's what I was thinking too. It's missing the causality. But it's a good proof of principle.

Guilty. I'm anecdotally seeing things reinforce what I believe based on evidence. It could be something else, true. But if I'm correct, having the government telling people to eat less refined grains and sugar is in conflict with subsidizing them. If someone can get the fake taco meat at taco bell for $.79, which is less than an apple, then market forces are going to encourage people and the food industry to sell the foods that allegedly cause problems.