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[BronzeWolf]

I will get to writting the draft today

 

[Shaneus]

Keto finally kicking in again this week... yay! ^_^

...right before the weekend, where drinking is sure to be taking place ;_;

 

[noire]

deleted

 

[Jirotrom]

Anybody else on a paleo diet, for the most part Im on that diet now, I cheat everynow and then with a bowl of pho... (cant get enough of it lol) But I've found it relatively easy to maintain

 

[1stStrike]

Today's been weird. I woke up after only 6 hours of sleep, didn't eat anything, went back to sleep, woke up at 4:30 pm and now it's after 7 pm and I've yet to eat anything 0_o. I'm starving now so going to go cook some chicken lol

 

[Masta_Killah]

Someone mentioned weighing themselves at the gym and that caused me to remember something. Don't know if it happens at other gyms, but my local gym purposely mis-calibrates the weight scales so that you're 10 lbs lighter(LA Fitness). Found this out after weighing myself at my friends digital scale and at my home. Just a warning to anyone relying only on gym scales.

 

[sangreal]

Someone mentioned weighing themselves at the gym and that caused me to remember something. Don't know if it happens at other gyms, but my local gym purposely mis-calibrates the weight scales so that you're 10 lbs lighter(LA Fitness). Found this out after weighing myself at my friends digital scale and at my home. Just a warning to anyone relying only on gym scales.

How did you determine this was on purpose?

Also, it doesn't really matter what scale you use, as long as you use the same one at the same time of day and it isn't broken. The important thing is progress, not the absolute numbers

 

[Masta_Killah]

How did you determine this was on purpose?

Also, it doesn't really matter what scale you use, as long as you use the same one at the same time of day and it isn't broken. The important thing is progress, not the absolute numbers

The other LA fitness gym I go to reads my correct weight. I would think that the gym i go to has a defective scale, but I doubt it considering that both of their scales are off by exactly 10 lbs.

 

[1stStrike]

The other LA fitness gym I go to reads my correct weight. I would think that the gym i go to has a defective scale, but I doubt it considering that both of their scales are off by exactly 10 lbs.

Have you uh, mentioned this to anyone? Tell someone that works there, have them fix it and then see if it gets changed back.

 

[teh_pwn]

Just because you didn't need to calorie count doesn't mean other people wont.

The problem is that many people dont realize what they're eating.

Calorie counting can work for some people, but I think in practice it leads to most people cutting portions without fixing the problem.

The body has a way to determine how much energy it has with the hypothalamus and hormone leptin. The more body fat you have, the more leptin circulates. It's your fuel gauge. If people overeat, then this system is in disorder (almost always in reading leptin levels), and the implications are that no matter what you ration, the brain will attempt to to recover the energy levels that it thinks it should have. It will increase hunger, decrease energy levels because it thinks it's starving. Eventually with enough caloric restriction, you will lose weight. But it's likely to be both lean and fat tissue. It's not ideal in results and it's needlessly painful.

Part of the problem with calorie counting is that you assume that caloriesOut is fixed. It isn't. It's controlled by the hypothalamus.

This isn't controversial science, just incomplete. We don't entirely understand all of the satiety pathways, and we don't understand all of the causes of dysfunction.

 

[Domino Theory]

So I've been reading up on Ketosis a little more and learned Ketosis can also happen in the body if you eat a lot of dietary fat and the body uses that as fuel and not the stored fat..what the fuck? I want to be burning my stored fat!

 

[Masta_Killah]

Have you uh, mentioned this to anyone? Tell someone that works there, have them fix it and then see if it gets changed back.

I have. So have a few other people in the gym. They haven't changed it. I'm guessing they do it to trick new guys into thinking that their routine with the trainers are working and that they should pay after the intro month. lol

 

[Seanspeed]

Calorie counting can work for some people, but I think in practice it leads to most people cutting portions without fixing the problem.

The body has a way to determine how much energy it has with the hypothalamus and hormone leptin. The more body fat you have, the more leptin circulates. It's your fuel gauge. If people overeat, then this system is in disorder (almost always in reading leptin levels), and the implications are that no matter what you ration, the brain will attempt to to recover the energy levels that it thinks it should have. It will increase hunger, decrease energy levels because it thinks it's starving. Eventually with enough caloric restriction, you will lose weight. But it's likely to be both lean and fat tissue. It's not ideal in results and it's needlessly painful.

Part of the problem with calorie counting is that you assume that caloriesOut is fixed. It isn't. It's controlled by the hypothalamus.

This isn't controversial science, just incomplete. We don't entirely understand all of the satiety pathways, and we don't understand all of the causes of dysfunction.

EAT RIGHT and count calories and you're fine. There's no pain involved. Part of counting calories means you'll be looking at lots of nutrition labels and will start to notice what is actually GOOD for you and whats not rather than just looking at calories alone.

Part of being on a diet is some lean muscle loss, but lifting weights offsets it quite well.

I really dont see the downside to counting calories. I'm not saying to be super particular about hitting exactly 1800 calories a day or whatever, just that people should be aware of what they're taking in, which can turn into good nutrition knowledge and good life-long habits. I dont count calories anymore, but I learned a hell of a lot by doing it when I started on my diet and exercise routine.

I'm also not saying its the ONLY way to do things. Just that I would definitely recommend it to someone starting out on a diet as there's a lot to gain by doing it.

 

[teh_pwn]

If you're having to consciously count calories to bypass hunger, then you probably aren't eating right. The best food doesn't have calories written on them either.

Does it work for some people...yeah. But my point is that if you have to override excessive hunger, you aren't addressing the problem - excessive hunger. Maybe pain isn't the right word, but annoying discomfort. It's why most people cave in inevitably. It's why there wasn't calorie counting until after the obesity epidemic happened.

Really you should never ever need to count calories. The body's satiety system is extraordinarily accurate when it works. If animals were just 20 calories off per day, they'd either emaciate or die of obesity over several years.

 

[Seanspeed]

If you're having to consciously count calories to bypass hunger, then you probably aren't eating right. The best food doesn't have calories written on them either.

Does it work for some people...yeah. But my point is that if you have to override excessive hunger, you aren't addressing the problem - excessive hunger. Maybe pain isn't the right word, but annoying discomfort. It's why most people cave in inevitably. It's why there wasn't calorie counting until after the obesity epidemic happened.

Really you should never ever need to count calories. The body's satiety system is extraordinarily accurate when it works. If animals were just 20 calories off per day, they'd either emaciate or die of obesity over several years.

I never said to count calories in order to bypass hunger, though. I'm fully supportive of the 'if you're honestly hungry, then eat' philosophy of dieting, but there's still a great deal of good than can be learned from calorie counting. I dont think I'd have learned to eat as well as I do if not for constantly looking at nutrition labels and setting a fairly unrestricted goal of 1700-2000 calories a day when starting out(I'm down to 1500-1800 calories a day now roughly as I've lost 25lbs since).

I also think people somewhat uneducated in nutrition might find it very hard to really figure out the difference between genuine hunger and cravings. I think this is a large reason why many people overeat during meals. I'm not saying counting calories is really gonna help with this, but overall, I think somebody who's willing to count calories is already putting in the effort to do their research which makes it much more likely that they'll be interested in learning other things about nutrition/dieting/exercise and whatnot, too. I find that the more I learn, the more confident I become about how I go about my weight loss, which is motivational.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

One shoe on and it starts pissing down rain. Fuck.

 

[BronzeWolf]

There is no physical difference between genuine hunger and cravings. The hunger system is a very complex and complete system that works really well at making you eat. It has to be, or you would die of starvation pretty soon.

One can control hunger in a purely biochemical manner, which is why people can do intermittent-fasting without going crazy and other people can't get past 4 hours without caving. It's all biological

 

[Seanspeed]

There is no physical difference between genuine hunger and cravings. The hunger system is a very complex and complete system that works really well at making you eat. It has to be, or you would die of starvation pretty soon.

One can control hunger in a purely biochemical manner, which is why people can do intermittent-fasting without going crazy and other people can't get past 4 hours without caving. It's all biological

So what's your alternative to counting calories, then? How is somebody new to dieting supposed to learn how to eat right and how much to eat when they know little to nothing about what they're actually taking in?

 

[teh_pwn]

So what's your alternative to counting calories, then? How is somebody new to dieting supposed to learn how to eat right and how much to eat when they know little to nothing about what they're actually taking in?

I would explain the idea of the body fat setpoint, and then recommend a diet that's mostly meat, vegetables, fruit (whole), nuts, and potatoes. Get plenty of sleep, exercise moderately, and if you are pale supplement vitamin D or get a light tan.

I recommend these foods because we do have evidence of gluten grains, fructose (sugar), and omega6 fats causing leptin resistance.

We also don't know everything, so I would recommend creating a food/satiety log. Any foods that cause overeating should be eliminated. If you're that guy that constantly thinks about leftover pizza until it's gone, then get rid of the pizza. And maybe some calorie measurements here would be appropriate to understand when they're overeating.

 

[BronzeWolf]

For people just starting out a diet I would strongly recommend getting at least a lipid profile blood analysis, or if they have the money, a smac 33 test. They are cheap and they really give you a starting point of what you have and what you need.

Like seriously useful

 

[betweenthewheels]

I would explain the idea of the body fat setpoint, and then recommend a diet that's mostly meat, vegetables, fruit (whole), nuts, and potatoes. Get plenty of sleep, exercise moderately, and if you are pale supplement vitamin D or get a light tan.

I recommend these foods because we do have evidence of gluten grains, fructose (sugar), and omega6 fats causing leptin resistance.

We also don't know everything, so I would recommend creating a food/satiety log. Any foods that cause overeating should be eliminated. If you're that guy that constantly thinks about leftover pizza until it's gone, then get rid of the pizza. And maybe some calorie measurements here would be appropriate to understand when they're overeating.

Why do you recommend whole fruits and potatoes to be included? I'm not being a smart ass, genuinely curious since we are led to believe that carbs are the thing to avoid when it comes to weight loss.

Also, any recommended reading on the body fat setpoint?

 

[BronzeWolf]

Why do you recommend whole fruits and potatoes to be included? I'm not being a smart ass, genuinely curious since we are led to believe that carbs are the thing to avoid when it comes to weight loss.

Also, any recommended reading on the body fat setpoint?

Carbs vary in their degree of "fat"ness. Not all carbs are the same and their concentration does influence how bad they are for you. Fructose is very very bad if consumed at high enough concentration levels, as found in processed foods and sweet drinks, but it's ok in most fruits, as long as you don't overeat them. Glucose is not all that bad, given adequate fat content.

If body setpoint is a "thermostat" like analogy for body weight, I am not a big believer, but my mind might change if given enough evidence

 

[teh_pwn]

Why do you recommend whole fruits and potatoes to be included? I'm not being a smart ass, genuinely curious since we are led to believe that carbs are the thing to avoid when it comes to weight loss.

Also, any recommended reading on the body fat setpoint?

Both fruit and potatoes/tubers are found in historical and modern tribal/native diets. There were a bunch of notes from missionary doctors (ex British empire) during the 1800s-~1950 noting how fit and disease free natives were compared to white settlers. But that the rates of obesity, cancer, and heart disease quickly increased as soon as the natives started eating the western diet (sugar, flour).

It seems that no matter where you go in the world, you find that humans are fit and healthy when they eat old world foods. It could be fish & coconuts, beef & milk, blubber, fish, root vegetables, or yams & fish. It doesn't matter. They all yield good health.

I'm open to potatoes specifically because of the Kitavans. They heavily eat something similar to yams and they are fit/healthy. I think potatoes are probably benign because they are very low on phytic acid and lectins.

I don't think carbohydrates are necessarily fattening. I think that many foods that are heavy in carbohydrates and some types of carbohydrates in excess can break the body's metabolism. Lectins in grains do this, and overloading your liver with fructose does this.

I suspect that fruit and wild yams are okay because humans have been exposed to them for a significant portion of human evolution. The fiber in them probably supports symbiotic bacteria and releases statiety inducing peptides, as some evidence suggests (more research needed - but it matches empirical data of native diets). Whole fruit also slows down how fast you eat. I mean you could eat at most 2 apples in one sitting, but easily drink 5 apples worth of juice.

Whole Health Source is a good place to read about the body fat setpoint. Stephan Guyenet is a neurobiologist researcher with a primary focus on the etiology of obesity. He's young for a researched, but he seems to know his stuff and provides references.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/body-fat-setpoint.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/01/body-fat-setpoint-part-ii-mechanisms-of.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/01/body-fat-setpoint-part-iii-dietary.html
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/01/body-fat-setpoint-part-iv-changing.html

I don't recommend overweight people eating lots of potatoes at first because they already have a broken metabolism. Specifically insulin resistance. I do think low carb diets are a good idea for overweight people because insulin is the strongest fat storage hormone, and based on evidence so far lots of causes of obesity involve carbs in some way.

 

[Domino Theory]

So I've been reading up on Ketosis a little more and learned Ketosis can also happen in the body if you eat a lot of dietary fat and the body uses that as fuel and not the stored fat..what the fuck? I want to be burning my stored fat!

Someone with more knowledge than me answer this, please.

 

[water_wendi]

Well, time for me to get back on the wagon lol. Been way too long and this last year ive been sitting around way too much (too much Wizardry and Fallout is my leading cause of fat-assedness.. well that and ramen, macaroni, and cotto salami sandwiches lol).

My diet will consist of salad, turkey bacon, steamer veggies (broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, etc), and tuna fish. Exercise is going to be a 5-mile round trip walk to the store to get my daily lettuce. i already drink a lot of water but am going to do at least 2 gallons daily now.

i would say it starts tomorrow morning but it starts tonight actually.. going to make my salad dinner after this post.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Since early December I've gone from 92kg to 87kg. Target is 85kg and then I'll judge from there if I need to lose anymore. Being a naturally big and strong build kind of changes your expectations, but to lose 5kg and not feel like I'm straining is a really encouraging result for me. Admittedly it has been easier for me than others because I had a solid fitness base prior to starting my diet (I ran at least five times a week, just ate a lot of shit) but now I'm both getting leaner and improving my times quite dramatically. It's been over two years since I was this fit and I think in a few months I'll be in the best shape of my life.

 

[Mario]

Thought I'd jump in to say I'm halfway through week 3 of a 4 week regime to whip myself into shape for an upcoming event. So far I've lost 12 pounds, and hope for another 8 to 10 or so by the end. As of yesterday I weigh the lightest I have in 10 years, and am feeling pretty good.

I have a "before" shot after the first couple of pounds weight loss, and I'll post more details of the results and what I have been doing when I get to the end. For the now the quick summary is a combination of calorie restriction, low carb(ish) diet, intermittent cardio and some weights/pushups, using stairs rather than elevator at work, and using thermogenics.

Reading the thread has been interesting and encouraging to see other peoples results. Hope to share my tips soon.

 

[1stStrike]

haha i usually don't weigh myself, but i went to hop on the scale to see how my diet was going and it just returns "Err" and shuts off. Great lol.

 

[teh_pwn]

Someone with more knowledge than me answer this, please.

Yeah, I think that's true. Basically body fat cycles from triglyceride form to free fatty acid form. triglyceride when as body fat, free fatty acid when circulating blood (unless it's in a lipoprotein on it's way to be stored).

If you are in ketosis, you have low insulin levels so there should be free fatty acid from body fat in the blood more than usual. But if you're eating too much dietary fat, yeah lots of it will be kept in your fat stores. Really it boils down to how much you're eating, and what causes you to be hungry. I'd moderate the dietary fat intake a bit by eating more protein. Both because you're replacing fat with protein and because protein kills hunger the fastest.

It's possible to be leptin resistant independent of carbohydrates, and retain fat due to excess hunger and subsequent fat intake. It's less likely, but it can happen.

 

[Akim]

Hello again guys, I have a question about keto.

I've been doing it for about 6 months now. I started at 298 and I'm at 203 now, but I'm still at probably around 27% body fat, so still pretty damn fat. I'm 6'2, by the way. Is there any time I should stop doing keto? I've started a strength routine and I was thinking of adding back in a moderate amount of carbs, such as 70-100g per day. Would cutting weight be easier if I just stuck to keto? Does anyone have any experience with transferring from keto back to a more carby diet? I'm not seeing as great of losses as I have been. I don't know if that is because my body has gotten used to the low carb lifestlye, or if it's just because I've dropped a lot of weight.

 

[Domino Theory]

Yeah, I think that's true. Basically body fat cycles from triglyceride form to free fatty acid form. triglyceride when as body fat, free fatty acid when circulating blood (unless it's in a lipoprotein on it's way to be stored).

If you are in ketosis, you have low insulin levels so there should be free fatty acid from body fat in the blood more than usual. But if you're eating too much dietary fat, yeah lots of it will be kept in your fat stores. Really it boils down to how much you're eating, and what causes you to be hungry. I'd moderate the dietary fat intake a bit by eating more protein. Both because you're replacing fat with protein and because protein kills hunger the fastest.

It's possible to be leptin resistant independent of carbohydrates, and retain fat due to excess hunger and subsequent fat intake. It's less likely, but it can happen.

Basically if you're in ketosis, you might not be burning what you want to be burning. Well, that sucks. What's the point of aiming for ketosis if it might end up just being your body burning dietary fat and not stored fat? The whole point is to burn off your stored fat. :/

 

[Rubenov]

I would explain the idea of the body fat setpoint, and then recommend a diet that's mostly meat, vegetables, fruit (whole), nuts, and potatoes. Get plenty of sleep, exercise moderately, and if you are pale supplement vitamin D or get a light tan.

I recommend these foods because we do have evidence of gluten grains, fructose (sugar), and omega6 fats causing leptin resistance.

Recommending potatoes now? WTF? Who are you and what have you done with teh_pwn.

Low-Carb all the way baby, ALWAYS.

 

[jts]

So I've been trying a bit of everything. Thanks to this thread and Domino Theory, I tried alternate day fasting... dramatic results. I'm at 93,5kg now. I guess that being under 90kg and under 200lbs will come faster than I thought. Those are great milestones.

I don't know, I've always been taught that our digestive systems shouldn't put up with more than a few hours without working on digesting something. Then I go on the internet to read about IF, and I realize that common-sense nutrition knowledge is full of myths. Damn.

 

[Man]

I lost 17KG in three months back in spring 2009. This I did only with the help of low carb and maybe a single jog a week. It almost went automatically, I just surfed the net and programmed all day. I stayed on that level for a few months but after becoming a full time employee it all started slowly rising again as picking up fast-food on the way home becomes an easy thing to do. Now I'm almost at the same level again. Really hits you when you see photos and whatnot.

So I'm jumping back on low carb. After having kept a plan for every day in that period I know the rythm so no need to write down the eating plan. This time though I'm planning to work out and five times a week (straight after each work day). Something I want to aim for is to achieve veiny, muscular forearms. Any tips on that area?

Edit: Will attempt ADF (2x days a week) going forward in combination with training and low-carb diet.

 

[yonder]

For those struggling with limiting or giving up soda I've got a suggestion that might help: cold brewed green tea. All you have to do is let a bag of green tea steep in a tall glass of cold water for an hour in the fridge and you're done. It's great with a squeeze of lemon; very refreshing. You can alter the strength by how long you steep it, but an hour is usually good.

 

[Domino Theory]

So I've been trying a bit of everything. Thanks to this thread and Domino Theory, I tried alternate day fasting... dramatic results. I'm at 93,5kg now. I guess that being under 90kg and under 200lbs will come faster than I thought. Those are great milestones.

I don't know, I've always been taught that our digestive systems shouldn't put up with more than a few hours without working on digesting something. Then I go on the internet to read about IF, and I realize that common-sense nutrition knowledge is full of myths. Damn.

Good for you!

Our bodies were built to handle anything (alcoholics, smokers, obesity, etc.). Also, our ancestors had to go through intermittent fasting because it wasn't easy for them to hunt for their food every 4 hours so there were times when they'd go days without any food.

Without food (any calories, really), there isn't any substantial amount of blood going to aid your digestive system. When your digestive system is completely at rest, your body begins its 'maintenance' period where it'll move that free blood to other organs for any repairs and tune-ups needed, permanently lower blood pressure, remove insulin resistance, increase insulin sensitivity, remove toxins (notice how just before you break your fast, your tongue gets really yellow?) and use your stored body fat for energy.

Fasting is built in all of our DNA. Your body won't start eating your muscles and lowering your calories to a severely small amount won't hurt you when you have some fat to lose.

 

[teh_pwn]

Recommending potatoes now? WTF? Who are you and what have you done with teh_pwn.

Low-Carb all the way baby, ALWAYS.

I'm not recommending that overweight people eat loads of potatoes. If they want a starch in moderation, potatoes appear to be the best choice because they don't have anything in them that is known to cause metabolic derangement. That doesn't mean french fries in vegetable/seed oil. More like a small yam with a large salad and a half a pound of steak.

Whenever I started posting in this thread I was all about insulin, but I switched over to the leptin hypothesis several months ago. But things that cause insulin resistance also tend to cause leptin resistance.

Low carb diet is still probably the best, especially if you supplement with omega3s and eat traditional foods.

Basically if you're in ketosis, you might not be burning what you want to be burning. Well, that sucks. What's the point of aiming for ketosis if it might end up just being your body burning dietary fat and not stored fat? The whole point is to burn off your stored fat. :/

You can do things to control it. Eat more protein than fat, eat lots of green leaf vegetables, avoid linoleic acid (omega6 fats in seeds/grains), sleep more, keep cortisol under control.

 

[1stStrike]

For those struggling with limiting or giving up soda I've got a suggestion that might help: cold brewed green tea. All you have to do is let a bag of green tea steep in a tall glass of cold water for an hour in the fridge and you're done. It's great with a squeeze of lemon; very refreshing. You can alter the strength by how long you steep it, but an hour is usually good.

I used to live on diet pepsi and I can tell you that brewing tea and then waiting an hour isn't going to cut it for most soda drinkers. You go over to the fridge, open up a case of soda, pop it open and enjoy while returning to what you were doing and sipping it. Then when it's empty you go and grab another one.

I don't drink soda at all anymore, but I used to do a case every 2 - 3 days easy.

 

[yonder]

I used to live on diet pepsi and I can tell you that brewing tea and then waiting an hour isn't going to cut it for most soda drinkers. You go over to the fridge, open up a case of soda, pop it open and enjoy while returning to what you were doing and sipping it. Then when it's empty you go and grab another one.

I don't drink soda at all anymore, but I used to do a case every 2 - 3 days easy.

I know; I used to drink a lot of soda myself. I'm just saying that having something else to drink helps, at least in my case. There's also the option of brewing a few litres and keeping it in the fridge for convenience sake. I know that's it's not soda, but it's tasty, refreshing and healthy.

 

[BronzeWolf]

brewing tea is fun.

And real tea is much more tasty. You can't really drink much of it either

 

[1stStrike]

brewing tea is fun.

And real tea is much more tasty. You can't really drink much of it either

Soda is amazingly delicious to soda drinkers too. It's like buying a candy bar at the store - if all you ever have is crap, then you think it's great. Once you've had real chocolate you look at a twix and go "fuck that shit".

 

[BronzeWolf]

87% chocolate FTW

 

[Domino Theory]

Sparkling water helps, too.

edit: Just read this: http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/the-facts-on-leptin-faq

So basically, lower/remove insulin resistance and lower triglycerides to lower/remove leptin resistance.

Glad I cut my triglycerides in half based on my last blood test.

 

[BronzeWolf]

teh_pawn, what is your opinion about insulin and leptin resistance and how they relate to each other?

I don't have much time to check all the literature but I would like to know what phenomena is explained by leptin resistance that can't be explained by insulin resistance. I also seem to find that they both share a "protein fat and mostly low carb" as an ideal diet.

If I should say, they both seem to me a little bit like classic electromagnetism vs. quantum mechanics. Classic electromagnetism can and does explain very well the most common of charge phenomena in the universe, but quantum mechanics explains that AND others that can't be explained by the classical theory. If I might draw an analogy, insulin resistance seems to me like a very easy and followable theory that can help a whole bunch of people lose weight, but if leptin resistance is much more complete, it micromanages a little bit more, which can be used but is not as easy.

At least that's the way I see it, but I admit I am not an expert in leptin.

That said, extending the analogy, low-fat, high carb diets seem like Ether to me now

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Soda is amazingly delicious to soda drinkers too. It's like buying a candy bar at the store - if all you ever have is crap, then you think it's great. Once you've had real chocolate you look at a twix and go "fuck that shit".

Best thing about low carding was when i splurged and got a chocolate bar it was soooooooooooooooooo fucking good. Hadnt had chocolate for about 2 months before that.

 

[betweenthewheels]

Best thing about low carding was when i splurged and got a chocolate bar it was soooooooooooooooooo fucking good. Hadnt had chocolate for about 2 months before that.

I have a couple squares of dark chocolate (85% cocoa) every day. It's low in carbs and great for suppressing my sweet tooth.

 

[teh_pwn]

teh_pawn, what is your opinion about insulin and leptin resistance and how they relate to each other?

I don't have much time to check all the literature but I would like to know what phenomena is explained by leptin resistance that can't be explained by insulin resistance. I also seem to find that they both share a "protein fat and mostly low carb" as an ideal diet.

If I should say, they both seem to me a little bit like classic electromagnetism vs. quantum mechanics. Classic electromagnetism can and does explain very well the most common of charge phenomena in the universe, but quantum mechanics explains that AND others that can't be explained by the classical theory. If I might draw an analogy, insulin resistance seems to me like a very easy and followable theory that can help a whole bunch of people lose weight, but if leptin resistance is much more complete, it micromanages a little bit more, which can be used but is not as easy.

At least that's the way I see it, but I admit I am not an expert in leptin.

That said, extending the analogy, low-fat, high carb diets seem like Ether to me now

Generally anything that causes insulin resistance causes leptin resistance. They aren't entirely sure why, but one theory is that high insulin->high triglycerides->less leptin makes it through the blood brain barrier->more body fat needed to reach satiety.

There are a few things that leptin resistance explains that insulin resistance does not:
1. Fat accumulation when insulin sensitivity is high. High omega6 fat intake and low omega3 fat intake can do this by increasing systemic inflammation. Inflamed hypothalamus has been shown to be leptin resistant in labs. You can gain fat from protein/fat, but it's less efficient. So people that can't lose that extra 20-30 pounds after losing 100 lbs on a low carb diet should toy around with this.
2. Why traditional Asian diets didn't yield an obesity epidemic. This will change soon, China is getting fat on wheat right now. Leptin resistance can be caused by lectins from gluten grains, but not so much from moderate amounts of rice.
3. The Kitavans tribe eats 60% carb in their diet, mostly tubers and fruit. Again, no lectins and low fructose load.

I wouldn't say anyone is really an expert on leptin as the science is 10 years old and developing. I think I recall reading recently that the resistance might not be leptin but some related satiety hormones/neurotransmitters just downstream of the hypothalamus. We should avoid talking in absolutes, because it's very possible we'll be wrong. I kind of hope so too, because this type 2 diabetes epidemic is really going to bankrupt both the nation and our health. If they figure something out that's even more effective than what I'm painting, then great.

 

[BronzeWolf]

The thing about real science is that being WRONG is incredibly useful. I like where this is being headed, because I will always trust a physical mechanism much more than an epidemiological correlation. Just the fact that we know for sure that an inflamed hypothalamus causes leptin resistance is a huge gain in my opinion.

I wouldn't hold my breath for the medical establishment adopting the insulin/leptin resistance low-bad-carbs way any time soon. The evidence is seminal at best and epidemiological studies need to be done to convince the powers that be. That or that they will die, giving way to new ideologies, which will also be quite a long ways. In the meantime, the evidence should keep mounting

 

[Price Dalton]

The thing about real science is that being WRONG is incredibly useful. I like where this is being headed, because I will always trust a physical mechanism much more than an epidemiological correlation. Just the fact that we know for sure that an inflamed hypothalamus causes leptin resistance is a huge gain in my opinion.

I wouldn't hold my breath for the medical establishment adopting the insulin/leptin resistance low-bad-carbs way any time soon. The evidence is seminal at best and epidemiological studies need to be done to convince the powers that be. That or that they will die, giving way to new ideologies, which will also be quite a long ways. In the meantime, the evidence should keep mounting

Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but this summer at UCLA we're putting on the Ancestral Health Symposium - Aug 5 and 6 - to put our stamp on academia. I'm working as a volunteer.

Pretty much all the heavy hitters are going to be there. Anyone who's interested in evolutionary/paleo nutrition, health, and fitness should try to make it.

 

[BronzeWolf]

Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but this summer at UCLA we're putting on the Ancestral Health Symposium - Aug 5 and 6 - to put our stamp on academia. I'm working as a volunteer.

Pretty much all the heavy hitters are going to be there. Anyone who's interested in evolutionary/paleo nutrition, health, and fitness should try to make it.

Sounds incredibly interesting. Gary Taubes, Robert Lustig, Mark Sisson, Robb Wolf, Kurt Harris. Well worth the $100! I worry about the name "ancestral health" makes it seem like a bunch of anti-vaccers raw fooders, but the presenters are strong enough.