What are the arguments against public healthcare in the US?

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Dali

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In the same vein as the trickle down thread id like to hear from the people against a public system like the nhs the reasons why you have that stance. This thread has nothing to do with "obamacare" so please don't use that for comparison or cite the flaws in that specifically as reasons for being against a universal system. Also it would be nice to know some of your medical background (are you healthy with no pre existing conditions? What about close family) and financial situation but that's just optional.

Emphasis on the people who actually hold this point of view, please.
 
Would be too expensive and put the country further into debt. At least that's the excuse I always hear from people I know that are conservative
republican
.
 
According to my fiance's mother, if the poor start using hospitals there won't be enough time and resources left to treat the people who actually deserve it - upper-middle-class and wealthy whites.

That is actually her belief, and not exagerrated in the slightest. I assume it's a commonly-held belief among people of her persuasion.
 
Dali said:
In the same vein as the trickle down thread id like to hear from the people against a public system like the nhs the reasons why you have that stance. This thread has nothing to do with "obamacare" so please don't use that for comparison or cite the flaws in that specifically as reasons for being against a universal system. Also it would be nice to know some of your medical background (are you healthy with no pre existing conditions? What about close family) and financial situation but that's just optional.

Emphasis on the people who actually hold this point of view, please.
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Because it would cost me more. It's a very selfish reason. However, even though I tell myself I'm against it personally, I honestly just want it to take hold in the US so people would stop talking about it. It would be another thing not to worry about as well (though I don't actively worry about healthcare).

My healthcare coverage is cheap, good and I never have to use it. It's a risky game saying that, and I realize a major event could change that whole thing, but I don't think I'd ever have money problems because of it.

Still, like I said, deep down I suppose I want an NHS-like system even though it won't benefit my selfish self.
 
I've heard people cite long wait times to see a doctor and fewer treatment options b/c of the cost.

edit:
Sorry, I posted even though I Op said question is for people with this belief.
 
I don't remember who exactly said this, but it was very eyeopening. "I know alot of people who would consider themselves the greatest american, or greatest christian, but when another countryman is in trouble, suddenly it's everyone for themselves.".
 
Deified Data said:
According to my fiance's mother, if the poor start using hospitals there won't be enough time and resources left to treat the people who actually deserve it - upper-middle-class and wealthy whites.

That is actually her belief, and not exagerrated in the slightest. I assume it's a commonly-held belief among people of her persuasion.
Click to expand...

Unless the apple's fallen particularly far from the tree, I'd fuck your fiance off pretty sharpish if I was you
 
Ultima_5 said:
and forget that one day they'll get sick
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This makes no sense at all. Generally people against free govt healthcare are the ones who already have it. If they get sick, they will be covered, hence your other point about "not caring". These two things contradict each other.
 
Extra taxes, no choice in doctor, waiting lists.

I propose that these aren't huge problems in countries with national healthcare, and that we already have similar restrictions in place. The difference here is that your private insurance will always find a way to get out of paying for something.

Oh, and people who work in healthcare oppose it because it will likely drive down our salaries. I guess I can understand this one.
 
Taxes.

According most people I talk to about this, they're more worried about paying extra taxes than anything else. To them, the thought of paying more in taxes is horrifying and appalling.
 
Some think that our healthcare system operates in a free market and wish to preserve it. Some realize that it isn't a free market, but wish to make it that way. There are some rational aspects to the second position, but free market isn't the only way to fix the lack of pricing controls and encouragement of competition.

I too have some reservations against single payer. I support it in theory, but I don't trust the American government in it's current state to do it well. Just look at our food and nutrition policy..it's brought to you by junk food and fast food lobbyists.

Basically all problems with our government boil down to an ignorant populace that's not politically active, or ones that are politically active but use emotional fanboyism to make decisions on levels of Penn State fanboyism.
 
At my work, and MRI network (rates below are examples somewhere in the norm based on my experience):

Adding an MRI Provider to our network: "Okay, MRI Provider X, we accept your rate of 425/500/575 per MRI."

Adding on a client, typically an insurance company or self-insured union, "Okay, Insurance Company Y, we accept your proposal of 450/550/650 per MRI."

(Profit for my company is what Insurance Company Y pays us minus what we pay MRi Provider X.)

Meanwhile, Patient Z covered by Insurance Company Y getting an EOB from MRI Provider X: "Let's see here, it says my insurance company was responsible for $3000 and I am responsible for $2000. Man MRIs are expensive!!!"

Lessons learned:

1) When reading a medical EOB, "Is responsible for" does NOT mean "paid." Insurance companies take care of their responsibilities by negotiating rates before you even step foot into the medical provider's premises. They might be "responsible" for $3000 but only pay $450 (per agreed upon rate) to take care of that responsibility.

2) Insurance companies have bargaining power because they represent a flow if patients. You don't because you represent only you. They pay market values. You pay whatever the medical provider wants. Don't be surprises if one medical provider charges you $10,000 (with insurance) for a medical procedure while another medical provider across the street will charge you $2,000 (with insurance) for the same procedure. And the EOB for each medical provider might say the insurance company "was responsible for" $15,000 and $4,000 respectively (for example), but more than likely they paid each medical provider extremely similar rates, and just a fraction of what they "were responsible for."
 
Deified Data said:
According to my fiance's mother, if the poor start using hospitals there won't be enough time and resources left to treat the people who actually deserve it - upper-middle-class and wealthy whites.

That is actually her belief, and not exagerrated in the slightest. I assume it's a commonly-held belief among people of her persuasion.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. If doctors have to see more patients, that means less time for each individual patient and the quality of the care will worsen. Also, wait times for important surgeries, sometimes going into years. Then there's the stories of foreign leaders coming to us to get their surgeries done because their UHC system takes too long.
 
teh_pwn said:
Some think that our healthcare system operates in a free market and wish to preserve it. Some realize that it isn't a free market, but wish to make it that way. There are some rational aspects to the second position, but free market isn't the only way to fix the lack of pricing controls and encouragement of competition.

I too have some reservations against single payer. I support it in theory, but I don't trust the American government in it's current state to do it well. Just look at our food and nutrition policy..it's brought to you by junk food and fast food lobbyists.
Click to expand...

The thing is though, you wouldn't be starting from scratch. You have the hospitals, the databases, and dozens of countries to look at and pick and choose which methods seem to work well. There'd be growing pains obviously, but as long as the country as a whole had the foresight and will to see it through, you'd end up with the best healthcare in the world.
 
- Healthcare should be something for the elite
- Public healthcare might reduce general healthcare costs, which would reduce profits of doctors, pharmaceutic organisations, and insurances
- Paying a lot of money for private healthcare allows me to not to spend too much money on other unwanted stuff

The most reasonable arguments I could come up with.
 
The GOP has convinced their constituents that universal healthcare is evil, because they love giving corporations more authority over the working class.
 
The most common, and ignorant, comment about the Affordable Care Act:

"I'm not paying for someone else's health care!"

What do you think INSURANCE is? When you pay for ANY type of insurance it's people pooling money together to reduce individual out of pocket expenses.

Oh and fun fact: The cost the insurance company passes onto you by the way of your premium has a factor built in that assumes there are people out there without insurance that will still have auto accidents or visit hospitals....but have no way to pay. These costs are already added into your policies and ..guess what....YOU'RE PAYING FOR THEM ANYWAY.

Political ignorance is the one thing that grinds my gears to the very core.
 
Here's the reasons I've been confronted with:

- Cost: They think it'll cost more. They think our taxes will go up. Well, taxes will indeed go up, they're not wrong there, but they don't seem to think that it'll lower healthcare costs at all. I think it's just simple view most have. If we're giving healthcare to more people, and it'll be free to people who can't afford it that means that it'll cost overall more. They fail to realize how much the downward pressure can really lower prices for everyone, because that's a much more nuanced thing that just more people = more cost.

- Rationing: They think that because we'll have more people with healthcare we won't be able to take care of everyone, and so the government will step in and have to ration. People who "deserve it" (i.e. worked hard or whatever) won't get their care, and it someone else might. This reason falls directly below cost for a reason. It's because they think costs will go up that they think we'll have to do this.

- Wait times: This goes along with rationing. They think they'll have to wait forever for care because so many people will need it. I shit you not, though, I've had an argument with a staunch conservative that believed the Canadian healthcare system killed her grandma because of wait times.

- Government between you and your health: They have an irrationally large fear of government. I can't say I blame them. Our government does do some shitty things and has a lot of bureaucracy to it. That said, I'm not entirely sure why they forgive the bureaucracy and the insurance companies getting between you and your healthcare right now. I've seen so many people complain about their health insurance, but when they do that it's more of a "that's just the way it is" sort of thing.

- Government sucks at whatever it does: They use things like the DMV and the post office as examples, and everyone has a crappy time at these. They think that the private market fixes everything, but fail to see how healthcare really isn't like any other private market.

- Don't want to pay for other people's decisions: I realize that with insurance you're already doing this, but on a large scale I don't think people make the connection. They see universal healthcare as them having to pay for some dude who smokes his whole life and now wants them to pay for it. They see it as paying for some other guy who eats and McDonald's every day. They see it as paying for the guy that goes out and recklessly does stupid things and gets injured.

- They believe the USA is best: I think this is one of the bigger hurdles here. They don't want it because they hold the notion that we already have the best healthcare in the world. It's partially because of the rationing and wait times things I put up there, but also I think just because they have an overly inflated view of the USA in general. They don't like thinking that we're not good at something, or even the best at something. So when one little story of a Canadian coming over here gets out it gets passed around and inflated as a prideful America Fuck Yeah sort of thing. The second you even say you've got an idea from another country, Americans tend to recoil. We want only our own ideas. We want to be leaders, not followers. So, I think if there is a healthcare fix in their mind, they think it has to come from here. It has to be new.

- Europe's current debt problem: They believe that Europe's current recession and debt problem are brought on by entitlements, and healthcare is a part of that. They think that we'll be on a path to that kind of think if we were to implement such systems.
 
i had 5 days in hospital over christmas with kidney stones, didnt pay a penny, i did however have to wait a month after being discharged to get the stone physically removed with some surgery. That month wait was the worst time in my life, but the care i was given both at the start and having it removed was exceptional. NHS this is.
 
It would take a paradigm shift in American thinking. It's also why we don't see free or very cheap universities here.
 
Fear of the evil 'taxes' even though they are already paying for it via their premiums, deductibles, out of pocket etc etc. Nothing would change except were you send the check and you would actually feel like you could use the care. I bet for many people it would even be cheaper. I know myself even though I'm insured hate to use it because I don't have copays I have a percentage. Doctor visit for a cold costs me $65 bucks.

Selfishness, it is already hard to get in to see my XYZ doctor I don't want anyone competing with me for a spot.
 
Best I can figure is "poor people suck and if they get sick we should all be so lucky that they die off in massive droves."
 
Personal responsibility - if you take care of yourself, you won't get sick.

Best healthcare in the world - we do have the best care in the world IF you have the right insurance.
 
I have frequently heard the argument that, while we should help people receive necessary health care, it should be handled through private charity, which they say will work more efficiently and be more moral than forcing people to contribute. The assumption is that people who have money will give on their own.
 
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