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[Scotty W]

Cool Riders was anachronistic but it was basically the sequel to Outrunners that we never got.

I agree it is cool, but making that in 95 was a crazy business decision (though not as crazy as Gale Racer). The bigger problem is that it got no promotion and was never portes- just like Outrunners and others in the same series.

 

[AREYOUOKAY?]

What were they thinking?

Mortal Kombat graphics

 

[Scotty W]

Mortal Kombat graphics

For racing games? This was the same year as Sega Rally, and the year after Daytona. Even if you are ok with MK graphics, sprite-scalers (which I like btw) were basically dead by 1995. Even if you reject this, my original argument still stands, that Sega was making terrible business decisions at the time. By making this game and giving it a tiny release and no ports, they essentially threw money away. Imagine if the team that made this and Gale Racer had worked together on a quality port of Daytona or Star Wars Arcade. The company was completely out of control.

 

[Fox Mulder]

They wouldn't exist anymore.

Xbox and Sony would outspend them, gaming tastes changed massively from what they were doing on the Dreamcast, and Nintendo has their own corner of the market.

 

[SHA]

Then Peter Moore should've been replaced by someone else more tolerant and flexible.

 

[nush]

The bigger problem is that it got no promotion and was never portes- just like Outrunners

 

[Fat Frog]

A world where all sorts of incompetent companies run just fine on hugs and kisses yes, I can see it now.

Yuji Naka will go to jail soon, no more civil war at Sega .
The company can now cooperate:

In 2009-11, Sega West released a "blue blue sky" amazing Sega rally 3 ! It's demanding, rewarding, and Sega of Japan legend Takenobu Mitsuyoshi even remixed some tracks for them.
Perfect cooperation between east and west.


Like it or not, Sega has now a brain:

Previous Atlus: "We are awesome at Atlus but we only develop for 1 console depending of the stars"
https://www.vg247.com/persona-5-and-yakuza-0-arent-coming-to-switch-or-pc

Atlus (under Sega) : " MULTI "
https://www.pcgamer.com/yakuza-and-persona-are-on-that-list-of-games-sega-want-to-bring-to-pc/
Sega West did hard but smart lobbying for Yakuza and Persona on PC.
(Persona 4 and Yakuza 0 are million seller and will pass 2 million units each on PC)


Of course, it would be more reasonable to remain publisher.

But in a console maker scenario, Sega is now smarter than before. They negociated with Atlus without ruthless domination (no big wave of departure at Atlus because of smart negociations) and now they are ready for the 21th century.

S SHA
Yuji Naka and Peter Moore were both toxic for the company at the time.
Good news, they're both out

 

[Meicyn]

Takenobu Mitsuyoshi

My man.

 

[Scotty W]

Have you seen it in action? Absolute butchery.

 

[nush]

Have you seen it in action? Absolute butchery.

I have, classic Sega. Let's put this on 32X? Naaaa....

 

[Fat Frog]

Geez, i didn't realize the level of average japanese publisher was that low...

More and more, it appears a Sega Lindbergh console was the perfect fit for them and for our wallets.
No wonder why japanese gamers don't buy playstation anymore (Japan is Switch Land now), they spent almost 1000 bucks for the PS3+ PS4 for that: (update: Holy shit, it's on PS5 LOOOOL and i saw euro shop sells it 800 bucks )


A PS4 game crushed by the Sega Lindbergh (2006/arcade) :


Even against SF6, VF5 is beaten but not humiliated. This is called style...


As i said, jp games lovers don't need overpriced Sony consoles, japanese publishers don't use playstation's power properly...

 

[consoul]

It's like the Sega Beena never existed.

We got Naomi 2 and then Lindbergh hardware. Thanks to the ports, the OG Xbox did feel like the natural successor to Dreamcast at the time. Dreamcast 2 probably would have felt a lot like Xbox.

To be honest I just can't imagine Sega evolving and surviving in the hardware game through the PS360 generation.

 

[Fitzchiv]

Well if MS is not a super rich company we would only have two players in console market right now.

Indeed, and yet a couple of idiots in the MS acquisition thread don't get this. Sony didn't predate on Sega, but they created the environment in which we lost Sega and have subsequently lost a massive chunk of innovation and character from mainstream TV gaming. The PS4 was so pedestrian yet brilliant in delivering exactly what gamers thought they wanted.

Would Sega have survived as a hardware company has Sony not been present? Who knows. And in fairness it's just market economics and competition that has played out, but the current status quo is two mainstream TV consoles that dickheads argue about resolution and framerate differences at the minute level about, and a Nintendo console that's ringfenced seven year old ports and their own first party content only as a quasi-handheld.

Innovation in the console space is gone, it's a shame Sega left (but they were run like morons).

 

[Fat Frog]

To be honest I just can't imagine Sega evolving and surviving in the hardware game through the PS360 generation.

They were reckless.

Now, most of their decisions make sense (not ALL of them, of course) :

Back then:

Skies of Arcadia = NGC exclusive
Yakuza = PS2 exclusive

2023
Valkyria Chronicles (Skies of Arcadia's creator) = PS4, Xbox, PC, Switch
Yakuza = PS4, Xbox, PC, Luna

There are multi most of the time.

It took times but they changed... They're smarter.

 

[kapshin]

They do

 

[Alexios]

Sega owes all of its success to Nintendo delaying the SNES to promote Mario 3. That allowed them to grab a huge chunk of the market. But they blew through this capital for the next 10 years because they were bad at business. There was simply no coordination in the company.

This game appeared the year before Scud Race. What were they thinking? Even worse, neither game has ever been ported. The company has always been a two headed octopus. Even as a third party they are still not organized. The idea of releasing a console in a market where there is little to no room for error is just unthinkable.

What do random games like that matter? Do you know how much it cost, what the R&D for the hardware/software led to, if it made the money back just from selling/running a couple of cabinets in some crowded centers or what? First you bash it then you complain we never got a port? What? I guess all big Japanese publishers were just as bad given Capcom also made Slipstream in 1995 on even older super scaler tech? And Namco apparently sucked because usually their boards/games weren't competitive with Sega's best (but people were ok with ports on PS1/PS2, lol?)? It's irrelevant since it doesn't represent the bulk of their output in any way, shape or form, like you admitted they were pioneering just a year after that with Model 3 and Model 2 was already a thing too, clearly with their cost limiting their reach vs cheaper stuff like that. You pan them for having a wide variety and reach in different market segments rather than only the top tier high end they were pioneering in for a decade basically, even though most others did the same at best, minus the pioneering bit. As for console ports, not all games were/are suitable. I know I wouldn't buy it for my Saturn (though I'd have bought other super scaler stuff, we all know that wouldn't change shit in a world trashing it as a 2D focused system versus the competition going all in on 3D, our preferences don't mean shit, after all we did have a Saturn apparently, others didn't and wouldn't have it for Cool Riders)

Lol @ your response dodging every point. Yes, cheap arcades like Cool Riders filling the gaps between the premium high end stuff is the reason Dreamcast went under, it's not like arcades were the reason they had any profits at all through many failed console systems until that market dried

 

[nush]

Now, most of their decisions make sense (not ALL of them, of course) :

Back then:

Skies of Arcadia = NGC exclusive
Yakuza = PS2 exclusive

What happened was when they went multi format publisher at the start they let the development teams decide what hardware they wanted to put their games on. There was no multi platform releases because they were coming off supporting a single platform, so being able to choose what platform they were making the game for was a lot of freedom.

It took them a while to recognise that to get the best returns they needed to be on as many platforms as they could, not customizing for one chosen platform.

 

[Fat Frog]

What happened was when they went multi format publisher at the start they let the development teams decide what hardware they wanted to put their games on. There was no multi platform releases because they were coming off supporting a single platform, so being able to choose what platform they were making the game for was a lot of freedom.

What about giving that freedom as well and... later ask other developers (Sega or not)to port these games on other machines ?

Whatever the method, just port games to other consoles. If it's good no one would care if it's not the OG team.

Breaking: Yakuza games were PS2, PS3, PS4 games. Many PC ports weren't done by RGG Studio and... we loved every minute of them.

 

[nush]

What about giving that freedom as well and... later ask other developers (Sega or not)to port these games on other machines ?

Because Sega and not having a breakout hit becuse all the consoles were new with a relatively low install base at the time there was no motivation to port. Monkeyball crossed the threshold.

 

[Three]

The closest we probably ever got to another sega system was the original Xbox.

Fun fact: Isao Okawa went to MS multiple times to try and make the original Xbox compatible with dreamcast games so that people can still play their games online. Unfortunately MS rejected his idea.

 

[Kamina]

Sega Uranus

 

[Fat Frog]

Interesting theory, some Sega boys think Nagoshi had suspicious links with Sony and that i was one of those who kept exclusivemany Sega of Japan games on Playstation consoles.

Pathetic fanboys or real possibility ?
What do you think ?

 

[TLZ]

Sega Master System was absolutely a great system, even if it got destroyed in the marketplace. Way better graphics than NES and some really great games. Managed to beat NES in some regions (UK, Brazil) as well.

I'd love for Sega to make a Master System mini next. Then Saturn.

 

[TLZ]

Interesting theory, some Sega boys think Nagoshi had suspicious links with Sony and that i was one of those who kept exclusivemany Sega of Japan games on Playstation consoles.

Pathetic fanboys or real possibility ?
What do you think ?

You?

 

[anthony2690]

Fun fact: Isao Okawa went to MS multiple times to try and make the original Xbox compatible with dreamcast games so that people can still play their games online. Unfortunately MS rejected his idea.

I wish Microsoft didn't reject, imagine if we could be playing Dreamcast games on our series X consoles right now! That would be insane, give me that fps boosted, res boosted skies of arcadia

 

[Meicyn]

Skies of Arcadia = NGC exclusive

This was a mostly a technical issue. Porting it to Gamecube was quick and easy. Porting it to PS2 would have required a lot more work because the console had half the video memory than the Dreamcast. It's likely the same reason Phantasy Star Online was never ported to PS2 but made its debut on Gamecube and Xbox. Probably way more work than it was worth.

 

[Fat Frog]

You?

I don't remember if i saw this theory on GAF or Era.
Me ? Well, i'll say 50/50, we now that Sony paid for blocking games on gamepass, so it's not a crazy. That said, as for Nagoshi, it could be other reasons ? (He said once Microsoft ignored OG Yakuza. Maybe it's true, maybe it's a bullshit reason to hide another reason ? Maybe he is nationalist and doesn't like gaijin companies lol, who knows ? i don't know him enough but i would be interested to have GAF's opinion on him)

 

[Fat Frog]

This was a mostly a technical issue. Porting it to Gamecube was quick and easy. Porting it to PS2 would have required a lot more work because the console had half the video memory than the Dreamcast. It's likely the same reason Phantasy Star Online was never ported to PS2 but made its debut on Gamecube and Xbox. Probably way more work than it was worth.

There are always a good reason but it's still a missed opportunity.(having downgraded textures but enhanced geometry, better lights for characters wouldn't have been that terrible...after all GC version also have downgraded material like sound. Add a few extra like they did with the Nintendo version and that's fine.)

I still think porting classics (even if it requires a little effort) is cheaper than creating new games.

We need both. New IPs and porting classics (fan service and practical decisions to remain sustainable).

We need a Skies of Arcadia remaster on Switch, PC, Playstation, Xbox by the way

 

[Fat Frog]

I wish Microsoft didn't reject, imagine if we could be playing Dreamcast games on our series X consoles right now! That would be insane, give me that fps boosted, res boosted skies of arcadia

There are a load of Dreamcast, Saturn, PSX, PS2, PS3 games playable on Series X though.

But yeah, we want moooore

 

[Scotty W]

What do random games like that matter?

The example is mot important. The principle elucidated by the example is what matters.

First you bash it then you complain we never got a port? What?

The principle I am talking about is Sega as a business, not as a game maker. I like most of their games, but that doesn't make it impossible to think rationally about bad decisions.

Sega overextended itself way too much. Consoles with no games on them. Arcade games with no ports. Cool Riders came out 3 years after Virtua Racing. That is insane for 1995. A good game at the wrong time can be a bad business decision. But that isn't enough for Sega. Competing against Ridge Racer, they launch with Gale Racer, a game that makes Stunt Race FX look like Gran Turismo 7.

if it made the money back just from selling/running a couple of cabinets in some crowded centers or what?

This is exactly the problem. Any big company can make a bit of money releasing an unpopular product. That doesn't mean it is the right decision. Microsoft could make money by branching into the potato chip market, but should they?

As for console ports, not all games were/are suitable.

A few unported games is fine. If you look at a list of unported Sega arcade games you will notice that the problem is not just a few random examples, but a deep systemic problem which went on for a very long time. I count at least 20 arcade games from the 90's that could have used a port, there are probably more.

The fact of the matter is Sega of Japan was not controlling the American branch. There seems to have been limited integration between the arcade and console divisions.

what the R&D for the hardware/software led to

I do know what it led to: the end of Sega as a serious player.

I know I wouldn't buy it for my Saturn

I like sprite scalers. I think they look cool. I would buy Cool Riders for my Saturn. But I also think making it was a mistake, a mistake emblematic of deep systemic problems with Sega.

 

[Meicyn]

after all GC version also have downgraded material like sound

That was because they did a very quick port. Like, there are sound effects in the game that were a certain length based on framerate issues in the Dreamcast release… like that one AOE attack Ramirez uses in the final battle where the framerate slows to a crawl. On Gamecube, there is no slowdown so the move finishes, but you still hear the sound effects for like, ten seconds after the animation finishes. It's hilariously bad.

The music sounds worse because they didn't bother porting Cybersound to Gamecube, which was wavetable synthesis software they used for a lot of Saturn games and later ported to Dreamcast. Porting that software would likely have been outside the scope of the Overworks team and they just pressed on.

 

[Fat Frog]

That was because they did a very quick port. Like, there are sound effects in the game that were a certain length based on framerate issues in the Dreamcast release… like that one AOE attack Ramirez uses in the final battle where the framerate slows to a crawl. On Gamecube, there is no slowdown so the move finishes, but you still hear the sound effects for like, ten seconds after the animation finishes. It's hilariously bad.

The music sounds worse because they didn't bother porting Cybersound to Gamecube, which was wavetable synthesis software they used for a lot of Saturn games and later ported to Dreamcast. Porting that software would likely have been outside the scope of the Overworks team and they just pressed on.

PC port, OG Xbox Port, by Sega China, Sega West or another SOJ employees, just port it... Don't leave it on NGC alone

 

[Meicyn]

PC port, OG Xbox Port, by Sega China, Sega West or another SOJ employees, just port it... Don't leave it on NGC alone

Honestly, I don't think Sega will bother. More popular Dreamcast ports didn't seem to do that well, like Crazy Taxi and Jet Grind Radio. Skies of Arcadia will likely sell like trash.

I own the Japanese collector's edition, if that tells you anything about how much of a fan of the game I was. And the soundtrack that I had to order through somebody in Japan that ordered it direct from Enterbrain because it wasn't available at retail. Both of those suckers cost me a lot to import.

I don't think it'll ever happen, much like Panzer Dragoon Saga before it.

 

[Fat Frog]

The closest we probably ever got to another sega system was the original Xbox.

Only for two years though.
Nonetheless, the current Series X is filled with BC retro Sega sweeties.

I'm not living in the past. If a non Sega console allows me to play a great Daytona port, i'll choose that one over the Dreamcast reboot.



(And of course, retro games playable in Lost Judgment)

 

[PendekarRajawali]

There are no IFs. Some people here can not differenciate nostalgia and business. If people really loved Sega back then, why their consoles sold poorly? Please move on guys, Sega hardware business has gone forever. No need for the 358th thread about if Sega did this or that.

 

[Fat Frog]

Honestly, I don't think Sega will bother. More popular Dreamcast ports didn't seem to do that well, like Crazy Taxi and Jet Grind Radio. Skies of Arcadia will likely sell like trash.

I own the Japanese collector's edition, if that tells you anything about how much of a fan of the game I was. And the soundtrack that I had to order through somebody in Japan that ordered it direct from Enterbrain because it wasn't available at retail. Both of those suckers cost me a lot to import.

I don't think it'll ever happen, much like Panzer Dragoon Saga before it.

Well enhanced, respected, i think it could do OK on Switch and PC. Plus, we have seen more obscure games ported lately.

 

[Meicyn]

Well enhanced, respected, i think it could do OK on Switch and PC. Plus, we have seen more obscure games ported lately.

Honestly, I'd prefer if you were right and I end up being wrong. But based on precedent, I won't get my hopes up.

 

[Fat Frog]

Honestly, I'd prefer if you were right and I end up being wrong. But based on precedent, I won't get my hopes up.

Well, we've seen returning IPs like Valkyria Chronicles (Tanaka created Valkyria and SOA)on PC 10 years ago, on Switch 3 years ago, Shenmue Remaster, Shining Force CD, Crusaders of Centy...

M2 even mentioned Dreamcast/Naomi in some 2020 interviews. Naomi or Dreamcast mini next ?

I think it's just a matter of times ( there are soooo many Sega IPs to remaster.)

 

[Drew1440]

Fun fact: Isao Okawa went to MS multiple times to try and make the original Xbox compatible with dreamcast games so that people can still play their games online. Unfortunately MS rejected his idea.

How would that work though? The pentium 3 cannot emulate an SH4, unless he meant the Dreamcast games that used Windows CE?

 

[SumJester]

Frankly considering their arcade roots it's hard to believe it realistically.
They would be a totally different company from all of their iterations to be possible.

 

[Three]

How would that work though? The pentium 3 cannot emulate an SH4, unless he meant the Dreamcast games that used Windows CE?

I think it was before the specs for the xbox were finalised so he was likely suggesting a compatible processor but I'm not sure about the technicalities.

 

[Unknown?]

The SEGA CD wasn't a gimmicky add-on in any way. It was a great upgrade that brought many new features to the Western market.


Saturn had decent success in Japan and it is a console that moved around 10 millions units. Saying that it did not exist to the public eye is largely debatable. People knew of the console.

If SEGA were still making consoles, they would still be making awesome games and people would still not buy them. Then they would die again and people come and tell us how awesome SEGA and their games were.

Yeah people act like those add ons did harm but the CD was fine. The 32X wasn't good but if Saturn hadn't been a mess, it would have been fine. It just couldn't compete very well due to the complex architecture.

 

[anthony2690]

Only for two years though.
Nonetheless, the current Series X is filled with BC retro Sega sweeties.

I'm not living in the past. If a non Sega console allows me to play a great Daytona port, i'll choose that one over the Dreamcast reboot.



(And of course, retro games playable in Lost Judgment)

Oh I know, absolutely love Panzer Dragoon Orta, it's an absolute treat at 4k on the series x, it holds up insanely well too
+ You can unlock the original Sega Saturn game too

I do wish jet set radio future & crazy taxi 3 were BC from Xbox too though.

& I wish BC existed before outrun 2 and after burner climax got delisted as I loved them games on XBLA

 

[Fat Frog]

There are no IFs. Some people here can not differenciate nostalgia and business. If people really loved Sega back then, why their consoles sold poorly? Please move on guys, Sega hardware business has gone forever. No need for the 358th thread about if Sega did this or that.

Nah, it's allowed on GAF to dream, discuss and have fun on light topics.

It's more complex than "hey, Sega consoles didn't sell well so Sega didn't love Sega that much":

Mini consoles probably sold less than OG Sega consoles but they are still a success...
Everything depends of your business model.

Plus, even the market has changed. Now, there are room for more makers, there is a bigger market for nostalgia, there are more gamers (modest students became adults with more revenues).
It's fun to discuss such things...

 

[Fat Frog]

& I wish BC existed before outrun 2 and after burner climax got delisted as I loved them games on XBLA

I still have faith in an Outrun 2 port.
The Outrun 3DS port removed the licensed cars...

 

[anthony2690]

I still have faith in an Outrun 2 port.
The Outrun 3DS port removed the licensed cars...

Hopefully they give us a new outrun 2 port in the future, or hell give me an outrun 3!

 

[Fat Frog]

Hopefully they give us a new outrun 2 port in the future, or hell give me an outrun 3!

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...les_dreamcast_definitely_coming_in_the_future
Sega and M2 thought about Naomi games on Switch but it was in 2018. Sega Ages weren't that popular unlike Sega mini consoles. Maybe they'll switch their work to a Naomi Mini in a few years and later Chihiro, Lindbergh mini ? Maybe the Sega Ages initiative will be rebooted as multiplatform project.

 

[anthony2690]

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...les_dreamcast_definitely_coming_in_the_future
Sega and M2 thought about Naomi games on Switch but it was in 2018. Sega Ages weren't that popular unlike Sega mini consoles. Maybe they'll switch their work to a Naomi Mini in a few years and later Chihiro, Lindbergh mini ? Maybe the Sega Ages initiative will be rebooted as multiplatform project.

Just give me nice cheap digital sega games, I'll buy them all.
I'd like to see games that haven't been ported before though.

 

[thefool]

I surely would have kept buying them

 

[RAIDEN1]

I mean they could have even put a port of Virtua fighter 3 in lost judgement instead of Sonic fighters...but no...that's beyond the capabilities of Sega...