What's wrong with the mainline Final Fantasy series?

Hudo said:
I kinda want them to do that right now. Just to see the meltdown from the hardcore tryhards of both fanbases.
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Believe or not You can expect the usual apologists "oh well you just cant accept change" ... "this is better and I consider f1 as much as all the games before" 🤣
 
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Some of its notsalgia. They were at the time of many growing up here the peak of the medium. Amazing graphics, amazing soundtracks, cool characters, wonderful combat for its time, etc.

Then we hit a point where western devs caught up and passed the series for visuals, better stories were made, and combat evolved drastically. Plus open worlds took over.

Failure to adapt, constantly rotating the team working on the next entry, and inability to both satiate longtime fans and newcomers.

The franchise wants to still be one of the biggest things ever and so it chases trends instead of just being ok with its time as the upper echelon has come and gone. Therefore just make the best final fantasy game those people who grew up with the franchise would want.

They've taken plenty of risks with the series so why not risk a turn based game that's akin to what metaphor is doing this year.

No need for open world but instead larger areas packed with content and quests. Interesting ones not the diarrhea spew of 16 and ff7 rebirth.

I'll always buy a new FF game. It's still my favorite franchise and every game I think is shades of good to incredible. Some are better than others. I think ff16 is a 8.5/10 but its lows are very low but its highs are astronomical.
 
Final Fantasy has had so many games in the almost 40 years it's been around that it's just impossible for it to keep an identity.

People have a hard time understanding that stuff like this need to change with the times, otherwise they wouldn't sell enough to justify the huge amounts of money invested on them. Just in this thread you can see how varied opinions are (and this is coming from hardcore fans), some even think that FFXIV is the last true FF when it's an MMO. Others think that it should be turn based and as such the last true FF was X.

For me FF is just something like an anthology series that contains many different games and approaches. It's impossible to pinpoint it's identity perfectly at this point.

I enjoyed XVI (no expansions) but I'm also enjoying the magnificent Octopath Traveler II.

Yes, Square could just not use FF for newer entries and give them their own identity but then they would be leaving a household name that basically guarantees sales on the table. That would be pretty stupid, in my opinion. On the other hand, I don't think they could make a classic style FF nowadays and have it be a commercial success.
 
I think even Square Enix has been wondering what to do with the "next FF" after FF13 trilogy.
In FF15 they went open world because FF13 was too linear. In FF16 they tried to follow FF14 success, especially in art direction.

Many things in FF7 Remake Trilogy are good and could be applied in the next mainline game.

I need characters and a "world" i care. Didn't like FF16 that much and FF15 is wasted potential.
 
For me, FF12 ( I do enjoy the game) is when FF started to lose it.

- FF12 tried too much to be an offline FF11.
- FF13, albeit with great music, was just too weird and never understood why it got 2 sequels.
- FF15 was just a mess and I didn't even finish it. Couldn't get a grasp on the story, although that may be my own fault.
- FF16 is step in the right direction for a return to form but it forgot to include proper rpg elements and its side quests for a huge downgrade.

- FF7 Remake and Rebirth are in my opinion the best FF we have got since FF9. I'll even say that Rebirth is a perfect game for my tastes.
 
HextarVigar said:
Oh come on; all they had to do was replace chocobos with brushable ponies and that would have sealed the deal.

Jesus Christ, your characters had magic dresses.

MAGIC. DRESSES.
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You joke about magic dresses but FFX-2 had the best battle system and focuses on a job system centered around magic dresses. Probably my favorite "mainline" game when all is said and done.
 
There are so many individual issues, but it all boils down to the same thing: over-design. Every character, every outfit, every game mechanic, every plot point goes two or three steps too far. There is elegance in simplicity, finesse in restraint, and confidence in understatement. Since the breakout hit of VII (and with the exception of IX), every successive entry has tried to restate but still surpass the same few ideas by adding more layers of complexity. Whether it's adding more belts and toggles to a character design, more phases to a boss fight, or more lines of dialogue to a dramatic exchange, the credo has been 'more is more, and more is better'.
 
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I honestly feel like they started suffering from a lot of the modern gaming trends that significantly watered down the quality of the overall products. Compare something like FFXV and FFXVI to the PS1 era FF games.

- Intentionally cut content to force sell DLC later (FFXV was very guilty of this)
- Holds your hand like you've never played a game before (FFXVI)
- Stories have a lot of missing parts of plot holes (both games here)
- Teenager style writing (mostly FFXV, the tone of XVI was much better)
- Both games feels brain dead easy and forgiving
- Less ambitious compared to most other big RPG's (Witcher, BG, Elden Ring). Old school FF games used to be much more ambitious.
 
BbMajor7th said:
There are so many individual issues, but it all boils down to the same thing: over-design. Every character, every outfit, every game mechanic, every plot point goes two or three steps too far. There is elegance in simplicity, finesse in restraint, and confidence in understatement. Since the breakout hit of VII (except for IX), every successive entry has tried to restate but still surpass the same few ideas by adding more layers of complexity. Whether it's adding more belts and toggles to a character design, more phases to a boss fight, or more lines of dialogue to a dramatic exchange, the credo has been 'more is more, and more is better'.
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Yeah FF's main problem has always been reinventing the wheel for the sake of reinventing the wheel. Unfortunately when you do this you have no identity.

It's why I appreciate Dragon Quest more because every game you can expect a Dragon Quest game to play like one.
 
Gaiff said:
Ever since XIII, this has been one of the most polarized franchises around. I only have passive knowledge of the games, but I frequently interact with the fans and have a few friends who are diehards. The reception has been quite uneven for almost a decade and a half. From what I saw, this is how it goes:

Final Fantasy XIII: Some say it's good. Others say it's awful. Considered the weakest main game up to that point.

Final Fantasy XIII-2: Somewhat improved from its predecessor but still not good.

Lightning Returns: Awful game. Panned by critics and fans alike. Definitely the worst of the bunch.

Final Fantast XV: Extremely uneven due to its protracted development. A mishmash of good and bad ideas that result in a messy soup of great and terrible things.

Final Fantasy XVI: Either the best one since X, or the worst piece of trash ever. On this very site, I've seen people praise how great it is, only for the next post to say it's absolute garbage. Same for the subreddits and fan communities. Some say there are too many cinematics and that they want the game to go back to being turned-based because action games suck. Others say turn-based games are a thing of the past brought about by technical limitations and that they shouldn't exist anymore. They also think FF games are meant to be epic cinematic experiences. I tried the demo myself. It was alright (though that Eikon battle was epic), but I've been repeatedly told that I've played the best part of the game and that I shouldn't bother with a purchase.

Anyway, before that, most fans seemed to love the series. There were favorites but almost no one thought VII or IX were trash. They all liked them to varying degrees. So, what happened to the series? What direction did it take for critics and fans alike to be so divided over the reception of the last few entries?
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Awesome.

Now do the Mortal Kombat games.
 
Aside from FFIII, FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns (games I'm planning to play someday), I've played all of the mainline games. Putting my personal preferences aside, I think all of them are good games in different ways. I would argue the series' biggest problem is that the name "Final Fantasy" has come to mean something different for each of its fans. Consequently, each game in the series goes against what at least some of the fans are hoping for. Over time, it's death by ten thousand needles. And for those who haven't played an FF game before, the name has come closer and closer to meaning nothing. Further amplifying this problem is the long time between releases.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure there is anything Square Enix can really do. I would say simply making good games would be the answer, but even though FFVII Rebirth is one of the funnest games I've ever played its sales don't seem to reflect that. Hopefully SE can find more consistency and solidify the FF brand. And hopefully that leads to more success and a happier fanbase in general. Either way, it will be interesting to see how SE goes about the next two decades. Especially with many of its main creators likely retiring during that time.
 
The problem with Final Fantasy is they keep changing the recipe. Dragon Quest doesn't get as much hate with newer entries because the changes they make with each game are more approachable to their core audience.
 
Walter Matthau said:
The problem with Final Fantasy is they keep changing the recipe. Dragon Quest doesn't get as much hate with newer entries because the changes they make with each game are more approachable to their core audience.
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Yeah, but that's sort of the point: make each game something new and {hopefully) exciting. They tend to take it much too far, but you can see what the point is.

Dragon Quest sticks with the classic style because it works. One could argue that they could try spicing it up a bit, but it works.
 
Walter Matthau said:
The problem with Final Fantasy is they keep changing the recipe. Dragon Quest doesn't get as much hate with newer entries because the changes they make with each game are more approachable to their core audience.
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They've been changing the recipe from the beginning. Final Fantasy fans want and expect that.

It really is as simple as "make a good RPG." Because they change the recipe, it could be anything, as long as it's good. Nothing is holding them back. But for some reason, they keep making them (A) crappy, and (B) not RPGs. It's weird.
 
Final Fantasy prides itself in changing up everything about the game in every entry. There will come a point where changing it up is detrimental rather than an upgrade or a sidegrade.

Dragon Quest used to be complete polar opposite and even DQ is starting to change it up or else get stagnant.

FF needs to at least settle down first and find the core aspect that makes it FF and thrive again before starting to experiment.
 
diffusionx said:
They've been changing the recipe from the beginning. Final Fantasy fans want and expect that.

It really is as simple as "make a good RPG." Because they change the recipe, it could be anything, as long as it's good. Nothing is holding them back. But for some reason, they keep making them (A) crappy, and (B) not RPGs. It's weird.
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I don't disagree with you. The Dragon Quest series is also always evolving in good and sometimes less desirable ways with trying new things, but they don't change up the fundamentals as much as Final Fantasy has been since FFXII.
 
There isn't a set formula for what makes Final Fantasy "Final Fantasy". There is always this weird gatekeeping online when it comes to certain games in the series where people will insist "that isn't a true Final Fantasy game".

The formula is constantly changing to keep it fresh. It can be turn-based, strategy, MMO, action adventure, tactical, cartoony, realistic, medieval, modern, deadly serious or lighthearted. Sometimes the mix they come up with hits, sometimes it doesn't, depending on the person. Ask anyone their opinion of the series and they will give you a different answer.

The fact it always changes things up and is divisive is its strength. A franchise doesn't last almost 40 years doing the same safe thing over and over.
 
Lack of the Sakaguchi soul.. bring Sakaguchi back, problem solved.
 
The character design got really boring for me. It's been alot of emoish black leather recently which can be fun but also off putting.

I liked what I heard about the newest game with the big titan battles. Also the "save the world" trope in every single one is rote now. Make the characters world smaller
 
The first time I said this was a couple days after the launch of X. Then XII turned out really good. Kinda convinced everyone things were gonna be ok. But here we are.
 
It's a ever changing franchise and some like that and others want older style final fantasy back. As a real fan I don't give a fuck give me more final fantasy and iam happy.
 
The fanbase is just divided and it's now impossible to unite it and please a set of fans who have a distinct view on what an FF or JRPG is.

For me, post PS1 and once it went fully 3D.

FFX excellent.
FFXI never played it but I know many consider it their fav MMORPG.
FFXII excellent. Took me my 2nd playthrough when I was older to appreciate it.
FFXIII disappointing. But the soundtrack, art direction, combat and mythology was wonderful.
FFXIV never played it but again one of the most popular MMORPGs ever with a pretty incredible turnaround story.
FFXV disappointing. Enjoyed the roadtrip but it was way undercooked and rushed.
FFXVI great with certain moments that were up there with the best in the series. Could have been improved with the RPG elements you get in Rebirth.
FFVII Remake excellent.
FFVII Rebirth excellent.

Alongside the final part of 7, it would be cool to get this remake of 9, one more mainline game and perhaps a remake of 10 in a single game.

Then I can retire and watch the madness unfold in the modern industry from the sidelines. :messenger_tongue:
 
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It's always changed up with each entry.

I don't know why we pretend like only the modern games are different.

If anything they should get credit for always trying to reinvent themselves.

You'll get some duds like XIII, it's gonna happen.
 
thru ff12 + ff14 stick with universal, archetypal themes/concepts. from ff13 on, the series began to actively cultivate 'western values'. attempting to target western audiences (not to mention, doing an awful job of it, as well) has more to do with this franchise going down the drain than any other single aspect, imo...
 
semiconscious said:
thru ff12 + ff14 stick with universal, archetypal themes/concepts. from ff13 on, the series began to actively cultivate 'western values'. attempting to target western audiences (not to mention, doing an awful job of it, as well) has more to do with this franchise going down the drain than any other single aspect, imo...
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People already hated 12 and if you didn't like 13 you have to hate 10 to some degree as well.
 
I've been playing FF since the NES days. Here are my impressions of each game:

FF1 - Good for its time, but outdated. Cool music though
FF2 - Sort of underappreciated, but too brutal.
FF3 - I've only really played the DS version, which I did not like. Maybe the NES / Pixel Remaster is better.
FF4 - It's a classic, but it's sort of dumb in a lot of ways.
FF5 - A mixed bag. Some cool concepts and music, but too silly for my tastes.
FF6 - First 2/3rds is great. I dislike the last 3rd. Cool concept poorly executed.
FF7 - Iconic
FF8 - Really dumb story. Really ugly character designs. I love how stupid it is though. The game play is broken to the point it's fun to break
FF9 - Best world design in the series, though a lot of it feels empty. Great story and characters. Interesting character progression. Good soundtrack.
FF10 - I hate this game. I hate its dumb characters. I hate its dumb world. I like some of the music, and the battle system is good
FF12 - A flawed masterpiece. So close to being perfect, but is uneven in execution.
FF13 - Some interesting ideas that were the victim of HD growing pains. A shame.
FF14 - I came in when Endwalker came out. I'm fully onboard the "This is the best FF" bandwagon.
FF15 - Boring as shit
FF16 - Slightly less boring. Mid tier at best though.
 
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XXL said:
Most of them are pretty great.

The issue is most people just want duplicates of things they have already played and FF changes things up drastically all the time.

People say they want new things, but they really don't.
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Yes and no. People definitely do enjoy familiarity, but changes to the formula can also succeed if the execution is done well. Look at Fallout 3 or God Of War (2018). Even within FF, FF11 and FF12 were huge departures from the standard FF formula that people have come to expect from FF1-10. I didn't dislike 13 and 15 because they didn't follow the classic FF formula. I didn't like them because I thought the stories were bad in those games.
 
kingdom-of-heaven-nothing-everything.gif
 
I agree they're not as good as they once were (FF8 being the peak) but they are still a massive step above most games releasing today and are often cited by many as being GOTY worthy.
 
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After X they started trying to reinvent the wheel with each new game, instead of building on what worked and improving on what didn't they just throw everything in the trash and start again. That and also I really think most of Square is just unable to make proper modern AAA games, they don't have the skill or anyone who actually knows how to manage and produce such a product. In order to keep up with high end visuals they make everything else about their games suffer.

I'm fairly open minded about what FF should be, I don't care if they make it a traditional turn based game, an action heavy DMC style game or a western style open world. The problem is that they don't only constantly change the style, but they simply don't seem to be good at any of them.
Want to make XVI a DMC style action game? Cool!...but then give me deeper combos, give more weapon types, don't force me to play on super easy mode and cut all the trash tier RPG bloat (no sidequests, no terribly designed open areas, no filler mandatory fetch quests, no brainded "crafting", etc).
 
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Final Fantasy X is still the best FF there is, there was no "shame" on just being a good turn based RPG, not trying to be something is not, just really good gameplay and skill tree.
 
Somewhere out there is an alternate universe where the FFXIII we know and everything that came after it never happened. Instead, Square put someone more competent in charge of the project, and FFXIII turned out more along the lines of something like, y'know, FFVII Rebirth. That type of modern JRPG, but with a new story, new characters, etc. Hell, maybe it was still about Lightning and Snow and Pulse and shit. But the game itself and the explorable world it took place in didn't suck absolute ass. And then they kept taking FF in that direction. And in that alternate dimension, this neogaf thread doesn't need to exist.
 
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Square Enix has been having trouble shouldering the Atlassian burden of being the marquee representative franchise of JRPG's for more than 20 years now. The last great FF was FFX. FFXII was good also but the writing was already on the wall that the franchise was simply too much for SE to handle
 
That shit started way before FFXIII or even the Enix merge, there's a reason why nobody likes FFX-2 and FFXII.
 
I think as technology has allowed Square to realize their artistic vision, the less and less I like their designs.
 
People cherry-pick and sample one "era" in which games were strongly similar in design philosophy, development and structure then make ought claims from what is. The franchise was always evolving (and not in ways we could have ever necessarily foreseen), the rate at which it did then was simply slower and therefore more familiar to its fan base.

The staff don't care nor aren't any less familiar or "cultured" historically in what FF fundamentally is than the armchair veterans whining. We have has no idea how the company's internal structure works for or against them, either politically or economically.
 
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The last FF game, FF16 was mediocre at best. The only highlights were the eikon fights, but even that feels somewhat scripted and on-rails at times. The game had serious pacing issue around 60% through the main story with lame fetch quests that were mandatory. The combat felt repetitive with not much nuances in the elemental attacks, and the slashing felt very floaty and not as impactful as FF7 rebirth. I didn't like the way the game ended as well. It felt very unsatisfactory. Square enix's best work on the FF games right now is FF7 rebirth, but they had old material to work with. To be honest, I am not sure if they can ever create a new, original FF game that is memorable and resonates with the fans anymore. FF13, 15 & 16 were kind of meh.
 
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Stu_Hart said:
The last FF game, FF16 was mediocre at best. The only highlights were the eikon fights, but even that feels somewhat scripted and on-rails at times. The game had serious pacing issue around 60% through the main story with lame fetch quests that were mandatory. The combat felt repetitive with not much nuances in the elemental attacks, and the slashing felt very floaty and not as impactful as FF7 rebirth. I didn't like the way the game ended as well. It felt very unsatisfactory. Square enix's best work on the FF games right now is FF7 rebirth, but they had old material to work with. To be honest, I am not sure if they can ever create a new, original FF game that is memorable and resonates with the fans anymore. FF13, 15 & 16 were kind of meh.
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Using fire eikon magic against bombs and not having it be absorbed actually broke my brain. If I could sum of how much FF16 gave a shit about being a FF game, that would be the example I use. The sad part is it would have been a near top tier FF game if they had only used the FF7R battle system and made gear matter at all. It could have been a strong game even with the awful MMO sidequests, because the core was so strong. I love the world, the narrative, etc. I still think it's a good game. But it's not a good FF game.
 
As I already said in a previous thread I made, having to reinvent the wheel every time is killing the series. Iterating on what works and getting rid of what doesn't is the way forward as fromsoftware and Larian showed us.

I sincerely hope FF7 Rebirth is the template upon which they iterate moving forward, as that feels the closest to what FF used to be. In my previous thread people kept confusing "iterating" with "copying", which is not the same at all. You can change a lot while keeping the core intact (see: Final Fantasy 4 up to 9).

FF16 has all the markings of what should have been my favorite game in the series, but it should have had either gone full Witcher 3 with the open world exploration and RPG elements or doubled down on the linearity and action focus, making combat harder and having a leaner story. Instead it chose this weird middle of the road approach and suffered a lot for it. The game was fucking amazing up to the Bahamut fight and then starts losing steam quickly and the plot goes off the rails.
 
IFireflyl said:
The most important thing that is wrong with modern Final Fantasy games is that they are no longer JRPGs. Honestly, every since SquareSoft was acquired by Enix, Final Fantasy has sucked. If they ditched the Final Fantasy moniker, I think I could like the games better. But calling them Final Fantasy is an insult to those of us who grew up on the original games.
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This, and the lack of turn based combat.
 
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