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Where is Fahrenheit 9/11 wrong?

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maharg

idspispopd
Spectral Glider said:
Still, I really don't think a great many other presidents, even the most intelligent ones, would be able to do much more than ask, "What do we know and what can we do?" Which, I know, prolly just brings us back to the "do something for appearances sake" argument.

How, exactly, would doing exactly that be only for the sake of appearance? Isn't that exactly what he should have done? Not for appearance, but so he could come, at the very least, to the same conclusion as others here have that he couldn't have done anything based on information, and not based on a book about a goat?
 

fart

Savant
mjq jazz bar said:
Who else is reading Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man?
no it turns out he was lying about being human. he's a tiny alien inside a huge fat man suit
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
mjq jazz bar said:
I want my answer about the blacked-out name on Bush's military record.

That is one contraversy I just don't get from the movie. When the government released the President's millitary records that were censored, all they had to do was
highlight the spoilers =P


Why is this topic still alive anyway. When you are disagreeing with the bastion of GAF reason, Cyan, you lose.

OT:
(BTW cyan, today in an interview I got told that their particular firm looked at a degree from UCB as a negative :( wtf is that shit?)
 

fart

Savant
see, cal sucks

bath turned out to be the bin laden's financial advisor in charge of their US investments

is this what you're even asking about?
 
ghostface said:
I dont remember exactly, but it was something about how that name could link the Bush family to the Bin Ladens.
But if this is such an outlandish claim, why are people ignoring the fact that someone obviously thought it was a good idea to black out Bath's name?
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Cyan said:
What?!? Booo! Clearly, they all went to Stanfurd.
To top it off he mentioned that he had hired some people out of ITT tech institute earlier in the year, IT BURRRRNS!
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
fart said:
see, cal sucks

bath turned out to be the bin laden's financial advisor in charge of their US investments

is this what you're even asking about?

And, in turn, Bath provided money to Bush's (mis)adventures in starting his own businesses. There are a lot of Saudi fingerprints on Bush's early years after Yale.
 

Xenon

Member
Going by that logic, Bush could very have sat there for an hour, maybe two, and it still would not have made a difference. Would that have been normal for a President to do? In any case, most people are defending Bush because in retrospect, it was too late to do anything to stop the attacks. While this is true, all Bush was told was that his country was under attack. *ANY* one of us, after hearing this news, would have paniqed/called someone/hid under a desk/turn on the news/etc, but would not have just fucking SAT THERE.


I guess it’s good that you’re not the president then. The people in this forum, who have no fucking clue what was actually going through Bush's mind, condemn him just because it looked bad. That just shows their ignorance and a need to find fault no matter how petty. For all I know the agent told bush that they would be ready to go in a few minutes. But your right I'm sure if Gore was there (who I actually wanted to win the election) He would of reacted, he would have put on a great show. I guess that one of the things I respect about Bush. He doesn't seem like he's trying to put on a front like so many other politicians do.

Maybe he thought about his family. Maybe he was calming himself down because he knew that soon the country would look to him for guidance and just wanted to get his mind in order first. Or maybe he just wanted to savor the last simple moment he would have for a long time. Either way I think he did a great job in the weeks that followed. So, I'll give him the fucking seven minutes. Shit, since the best the Dems can come up with is Kerry I'm probably going to give him four more years.
 

rastex

Banned
You know, I was thinking about this recently, how there's this incredible, unbelievable absense of logical reasoning by many "right-wing conservatives" when it comes to Bush's inadequacy/corruption/Iraqi lies/bad administration/etc etc. Here's some thoughts that have been running through my head.

The stereo-typical conservative is a very passionate person who loves their freedom and independence and way of life very dearly, and will surely fight to protect it. If there's one thing the stereotypical conservative can't be faulted for is their passion for their ideals. Now, if something were to actually threaten their freedom this would mean extreme and decisive action would have to be taken to push back any threats or correct any wrongs. These are serious and life-changing actions.

Continuing, most people like the status-quo. Doesn't matter where you are in the world, and what country or conditions you live in, most people fear the unknown/change and even if there conditions are bad, they fear making them even worse and will not take action. As such, people will make themselves think absolutely anything to justify their inaction in rectifying any ways they morally feel they've been wrong. No twist of logic is too great. And I think that's the case now with the stereotypical american conservative. They just can't bring themself to erect massive change in the corrupt system, and thus to be able to live with themselves they the world they see to fit the world they WANT to see.
 

fart

Savant
STRAW MAN STRAW MAN STRAW MAN

so what if webster spelled stanford with an o!! he was taking those 7 minutes to think about his family!!! what a great guy!!!! !!!!!!!!11111oneoenoene
 

effzee

Member
Xenon said:
I guess it’s good that you’re not the president then. The people in this forum, who have no fucking clue what was actually going through Bush's mind, condemn him just because it looked bad. That just shows their ignorance and a need to find fault no matter how petty. For all I know the agent told bush that they would be ready to go in a few minutes. But your right I'm sure if Gore was there (who I actually wanted to win the election) He would of reacted, he would have put on a great show. I guess that one of the things I respect about Bush. He doesn't seem like he's trying to put on a front like so many other politicians do.

Maybe he thought about his family. Maybe he was calming himself down because he knew that soon the country would look to him for guidance and just wanted to get his mind in order first. Or maybe he just wanted to savor the last simple moment he would have for a long time. Either way I think he did a great job in the weeks that followed. So, I'll give him the fucking seven minutes. Shit, since the best the Dems can come up with is Kerry I'm probably going to give him four more years.
'


u just dont get it do u? we have actual quotes from the agent himself who informed bush and his exact words were "a 2nd plane hit the 2nd bldg...we are under attack". nothing less and nothing more. he didnt say "we would be ready in a while so take ur time". he didnt say "but dont worry that was the last of the attacks so u can sit here for a while". he didnt give any indication about the scope of the attack.

i would like to think anyone who is president, dem or rep, at that very moment hearing the words "we are under attack" would at least get up....leave the children and get more info about the situation.

yes nothing happened in those 7 min in addition to the damage done and bush couldnt have reversed time and stopped the planes but you would like to see some reaction.
 
effzee said:
we have actual quotes from the agent himself who informed bush and his exact words were "a 2nd plane hit the 2nd bldg...we are under attack".
So... when was Bush told about the FIRST building?
 

fart

Savant
accounts conflict but iirc the official story is now that he was told about it before entering the classroom and he may or may not have seen something on tv which may have been the first or the second building
 
fart said:
accounts conflict but iirc the official story is now that he was told about it before entering the classroom and he may or may not have seen something on tv which may have been the first or the second building
Hm.

Eh. I'm not too concerned. It's clear to me that there's no reaction that would have satisfied Moore and his ilk. Anything Bush did would have been ridiculed, just as everything he does is.
 

Socreges

Banned
Kobun Heat said:
Hm.

Eh. I'm not too concerned. It's clear to me that there's no reaction that would have satisfied Moore and his ilk.
No. If Bush had done otherwise, then it wouldn't have been in the film. That simple.
Anything Bush did would have been ridiculed, just as everything he does is.
As if to say he doesn't deserve it... har.
 
fart said:
clear to you? uh-huh.
Clear to me, which is all I'm ever really concerned about. I'm not a political activist, I don't try to change people's minds. I have my politics, I know what makes sense to me... and that's all I'm concerned about. Getting worked into a lather about it is a total black hole.
 

Xenon

Member
yes nothing happened in those 7 min in addition to the damage done and bush couldnt have reversed time and stopped the planes but you would like to see some reaction.

So, because Bush didn't react to fit your expectations it somehow justifies your claim that he has failed as a leader? Whatever... It is also funny(not really) how most of the people who have such a problem with this already have a deep seeded hate for Bush. It just reminds me how people are when they are angry with someone. They look for any nit picky reason to vent their emotions.

Was it odd? yeah. Was it irresponsible? No.
 

Socreges

Banned
mjq jazz bar said:
I'm really interested in hearing why, though. No one seems to care.
I immediately thought it was just because they didn't want other people's names being on public documents such as that. Which is reasonable.

But then certain connections were made and it all became pretty suspect.
 

fart

Savant
Throughout the reams of documents released by the administration, standard practice was to allow each National Guardsman's name to be printed in full. Why did the White House make an exception in this case? Why would the Bush administration want to make sure this name in particular did not make it into the public eye?
seems to rule out law and courtesy
 

nitewulf

Member
movie is a resounding success, i skipped most of the posts here as i havent seen it yet. but the part that was cut out (senator's nephew) was mentioned on CNN as well.
i was hanging out with a bunch of guys who watched the movie, and hell, they were hoping for this movie to make bush lose the election. and they were pretty well informed on the politics, not just ignorant hippies.
i dont know how much influence this movie will have...but bush himself is making some slick manuevers (not necessarily related to fahrenheit) , such as the iraq power handover 2 days early...let's see where it all ends up.
 

Fusebox

Banned
xsarien said:
My gut's telling me two things:
1) You haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11. If you did, you would know that the sequence in the Florida school isn't a montage of photos with various facial expressions, it's video straight from a teacher's camcorder.

I wasn't referring to that scene, I've been watching the Awful Truth for quite a while.

xsarien said:
You managed to look everywhere but John Kerry's website, which is pretty clear in that his approach to Iraq doesn't include pulling out, but, for example, repairing the international relations the Bush administration's massive, collective ego has managed to burn down (among other things.)

Of course I looked there - his policy wasnt clear to me. The best you could sum with is "He will repair the relations."

I dont think it was clear to you either.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/iraq/

They're already building, training and repairing - Kerry is going to 'continue' Dubyas work in other words.
 

rastex

Banned
Just came back from it, a few notes:

This is not a front-loaded movie. On the same night as the Spiderman 2 launch, the movie theatre was absolutely PACKED.

Moore's film-making is head-and-shoulders above the amateurish stuff in BfC. Meaning, the entire film's scope, pacing and delivery were all performed in a significantly improved manner.

Moore's message is extremely compelling, and while heavy-handed in some cases never really seems too out of place (unlike BfC) and serves his purposes well.

Moore's comments for the voice overs are atrociously annoying. I just wanted him to shut up the whole time. And the friggin audience clapping and stuff was extremely annoying as well, not because I think audiences clapping in movies is lame (I do) but because the nature of the film is such that clapping is totally inappropriate. I mean, if these people are clapping because they agree with what Moore is saying, then the implications of what he's saying are that hundreds and thousands of people have been killed and maimed and have had their entire lives changed for totally greedy and selfish reasons. And people clap at this? Why are they not filled with absolute blood boiling rage, and absolute horror that this was and is happening?

It's the most important movie in the last 5 years. And everybody should see it for the footage alone. Seriously.
 

effzee

Member
Xenon said:
So, because Bush didn't react to fit your expectations it somehow justifies your claim that he has failed as a leader? Whatever... It is also funny(not really) how most of the people who have such a problem with this already have a deep seeded hate for Bush. It just reminds me how people are when they are angry with someone. They look for any nit picky reason to vent their emotions.

Was it odd? yeah. Was it irresponsible? No.



yeah that must be it eventhough i have mentioned that i didnt care who was/could have been the president...democrat, republican, white, or black...but it just disturbed me to learn of this. notice i didnt say anywhere how this reflects on his ability to lead this nation...only that this came off seriously weird. way to put words in my mouth.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Fusebox said:
They're already building, training and repairing - Kerry is going to 'continue' Dubyas work in other words.

This is not completely accurate.. but at the same time, just because we are stuck in a situation doesnt mean you stick with the guy who put us there. Kerry cant just pull out of Iraq at this point, but it doesnt mean that Bush should be thrown out on his ass for getting us in there in the first place.

As far as the main difference? Kerry seems more than willing to give the UN, Nato and other international organization control of the situation in Iraq.. something bush wont do, and one of the many reasons that we keep getting told (as Cheney would put it) to go fuck ourselves. There is no gaurentee that giving the UN control (or offering it) would get them to take over the situation, but the chances are greater.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Shew, I would REALLY f*cking hate to be President...

It does not matter who you are or what you do, you WILL be hated by an incredibly large group of people. The president makes a great focus point of hate. Who can we blame for ALL of our troubles? One man, of course!

Hey, I'm not saying I agree with things decided by the current leaders of the US (I just want to be left the fuck alone), but if people would step back and LISTEN to themselves...they'd be quite shocked at how evil THEY sound. It makes me fucking SICK to hear people debate this kind of thing in this manner...

It's the most important movie in the last 5 years. And everybody should see it for the footage alone. Seriously.

Yeah, but I'll make sure I download it. Twice. Moore doesn't deserve our money and he sure as shit isn't going to get mine.

How can you respect someone whose job is to RUIN LIVES, yet runs home crying to his lawyer when even the smallest bit of anti-Moore sentiment starts to show up.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/p...ArtNo=406260849&SectionCat=&Template=printart

....Clarke took issue with some elements of documentary-maker Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911." The movie depicts how the Bush administration allowed Saudi nationals and members of Osama bin Laden's family to leave the United States days after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The Saudi nationals were not allowed to leave until the FBI cleared them of posing any danger or having any knowledge of Osama bin Laden's whereabouts, Clarke said.

"This has become a tempest in a tea pot," Clarke said. "After 911, I think the Saudis were perfectly justified ... in fearing the possibility of vigilantism against Saudis in this country. When they asked to evacuate their citizens ... I thought it was a perfectly normal request."

Clarke added that while he agrees with many things Moore stands for, making this incident a big part of the movie was "a mistake."
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
hindsight is 20/20 and the people who don't have to make the decisions would ALWAYS have made better decisions.

criticism is many times simply a supposed license for stupidity.

moore is certainly entitled to his own opinion but I agree that paying him to try and ruin other people's lives is asanine. Capitalsim at it's best.
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
Wait, so we can jump down his back cuz he asked a perfectly reasonable question:

Why were members of the Bin Laden family allowed to leave the country w/o extensive investigation? We, as a country, have rounded up many people in the name of terrorism. In that response to 9/11, we have denied plenty of rights to people by imprisonating them. But a few days after 9/11, when Bin Laden was already being named as prime suspect, we let his family leave the country? I start to wonder about that.

It never sat right with me.
 

SteveMeister

Hang out with Steve.
Did bin Laden family members have any important information to impart to the FBI?

The term "bin Laden family member" is rather misleading, as it is often mistakenly assumed to indicate a person with close ties to Osama bin Laden. By most accounts, Osama bin Laden was one of more than fifty children fathered by the same man; the bin Laden family is huge, with hundreds (if not thousands) of members spread all over the globe. Many, many of these family members are only tangentially related to Osama bin Laden and never had much (if any) contact with Osama himself. Moreover, his family disowned him after he fled Saudi Arabia in 1991 and was stripped of his Saudi citizenship in 1994 for smuggling weapons from Yemen. According to another news account about Saudis leaving the U.S. in the wake of the September 11 attacks:

Most of Mr. bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college. They are among the 4,000 Saudi students in the United States. King Fahd, the ailing Saudi ruler, sent an urgent message to his embassy here saying there were "bin Laden children all over America" and ordered, "Take measures to protect the innocents," the ambassador said.3

The fact that "most of Mr. bin Laden's relatives were attending high school and college" in 2001 means that most of them were somewhere between 4 and 12 years old when Osama bin Laden fled Saudi Arabia. Students who were mere children when Osama bin Laden left Saudi Arabia, and who had spent at least some of their intervening years living in the U.S., were not likely sources for information regarding his current whereabouts and operations:

"We did everything that needed to be done," said John Iannarelli, a bureau spokesman. "There's nothing to indicate that any of these people had any information that could have assisted us."9

More about all of this here.
 

human5892

Queen of Denmark
dark10x said:
How can you respect someone whose job is to RUIN LIVES, yet runs home crying to his lawyer when even the smallest bit of anti-Moore sentiment starts to show up.
Michael Moore's job is to...ruin lives? There have been a lot of absurd things said in this thread, but I think this might be in the top three.

And honestly, if I was him, I'd be siccing my lawyer on people, too, since many people in this country seem to think that if they viciously attack him on the odd hazed-over fact or dropped interview that they will discredit anything he has to say. There's a fine line between criticism and slander, and I think some people may be straddling it.
 

human5892

Queen of Denmark
Ripclawe said:

I do argue -- accurately -- that the bin Ladens and other Saudis were whisked out of the country without being subjected to a serious investigation. But the sequence to which [Newsweek Writer Michael] Isikoff refers ends with director Michael Moore summing up my account of the bin Laden evacuation by saying, "So a little interview, check the passport, what else?" "Nothing," I respond.

It would be one thing if Isikoff had simply made an honest error; but that clearly is not the case. When he called me, I specifically told Isikoff that the evacuation process involved brief interviews of the bin Ladens which fell far short of the kind of intense criminal investigation that should have gotten underway after the murder of nearly 3,000 people. The worst crime in American history had just taken place two days earlier, and the FBI did not even bother to check the terror watch lists. Isikoff omitted all that. Instead, he put words in my mouth that are simply not in the movie. - Craig Unger

3. DID THESE INDIVIDUALS GET SPECIAL TREATMENT BY LAW ENFOCEMENT?

Yes, according to Jack Cloonan, a former senior agent on the joint FBI-CIA Al-Qaeda task force, who is interviewed in Fahrenheit 9/11. Cloonan raises questions about the type of investigation to which these individuals were subjected, finding it highly unusual that in light of the seriousness of the attack on 9/11, bin Laden family members were allowed to leave the country and escape without anyone getting their statements on record in any kind of formal proceeding, and with little more than a brief interview.

Most Saudis who left were not interviewed at all by the FBI. In fact, of the 142 Saudis on these flights, only 30 were interviewed. National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Threats and Responses in 2001, Staff Statement No. 10, The Saudi Flights, p. 12

The film puts this in perspective. Imagine President Clinton facilitating the exit of members of the McVeigh family out of the country following the Oklahoma City bombing. Or compare this treatment to the hundreds of people detained following the 9/11 attacks who were held without charges for months on end, who had no relationship to Osama bin Laden.
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
SteveMeister said:
More about all of this here.

I think moore covered this either on his website or in the movie. How initial thoughts that he has been a total outcast were misleading. He was seen at his brother's wedding or his brother had a wedding in Afghanistan recently, like a few years ago.

Either way, my point stands. We were rounding everybody up, either putting them in Cuba or where ever. And ironically, we let the guys family go. Just seems strange to me. No saying they should have locked em up, although a few guys in Guantanamo Bay may beg to differ, we should have done some more intense digging, instead of giving them a free pass out of the country.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
I think moore covered this either on his website or in the movie. How initial thoughts that he has been a total outcast were misleading. He was seen at his brother's wedding or his brother had a wedding in Afghanistan recently, like a few years ago.

No that was his son's wedding to the daughter of one of his aides.
 

fart

Savant
i believe the claim was that another family member attended some wedding that had something to do with osama

i can't remember exactly what was said though. anyone want to do some research?
 
Edit - This doesn't have to do with the wedding thing, this is about Clarke...

Ripclawe said:
From Hitokage's link...
BOLTON: This new account of the events seemed to contradict Clarke’s sworn testimony before the Sept. 11 commission at the end of March about who approved the flights.

“The request came to me, and I refused to approve it,” Clarke testified. “I suggested that it be routed to the FBI and that the FBI look at the names of the individuals who were going to be on the passenger manifest and that they approve it or not. I spoke with the—at the time—No. 2 person in the FBI, Dale Watson, and asked him to deal with this issue. The FBI then approved...the flight.”

“That’s a little different than saying, ‘I claim sole responsibility for it now,’” [9/11 commissioner Tim] Roemer said yesterday.

WTF is going on here?

Full transcript of the relevant 9/11 testimony here.
 
As for the wedding...

Ripclawe, this is the wedding you're referring to. I *think* the wedding the movie was talking about happened in 2000 / 2001, pre 9/11. Anyone remember?
 
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