This is by far the best explanation I can think of. A similar situation is happening in the US now with the GoP and their use of the Southern Strategy (aka lets get all the pissed-at-desegregation Southern voters by pandering to their fear of black people). Its coming back to bite them in the ass now that the old racists are dying off and the new generation don't see what the all the fear was about.
Why are European left-wing parties constantly getting blown up?
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This is by far the best explanation I can think of. A similar situation is happening in the US now with the GoP and their use of the Southern Strategy (aka lets get all the pissed-at-desegregation Southern voters by pandering to their fear of black people). Its coming back to bite them in the ass now that the old racists are dying off and the new generation don't see what the all the fear was about.
Partly, on the other hand Scottish Labour used to go out and tell the electorate to vote for them to keep a Tory government out, after Labour got into bed with the Tories during the No campaign it made a mockery of that ideal.
Best way to get rid of a Tory government was to leave the Union.
This election people knew that a vote for Labour was a vote that helped keep Scotland at the potential mercy if the Tories.
The one thing about Holłandaise sauce, it takes a lot of effort to stop it splitting.
Gurgelhals
Member
The parties in Switzerland aren't really comparable to their "counterparts" in other European countries though. Due to the consensus oriented, semi-direct democratic system in Switzerland, the parties themselves usually choose to not water down their positions and messages in order to appeal to the "magical independent voters" at the political centre. In fact, the situation is actually the other way round: Party positions tend to be more extreme (i.e. more to the left or to the right) than the positions of their average voters. You could say that finding the centre ground happens afterwards as part of the daily legislative process.
This means that we have, on the one hand, a quite successful UKIP-style right wing party (unfortunately, I might add), but also a social democratic party that is not a New Labour type of leftist party but still pursuing traditional social democratic policies.
Left wing parties are often set up to be an official opposition and to get a ruling centrist or center right to adjust their policies. There is often a lack of a comprehensive and reasonable plan for governing, and when elected many parties have gone so far towards redistribution that the system begins to break with too many takers and not enough givers. The strongly worded rhetoric can also make people uncomfortable.
Personally I think all parties and the voters need to take a careful look at exactly what is desired from a government and how to set things up to provide it as efficiently and responsibly as possible. Then have a plan longer than an election cycle, and be transparent with what you're doing so everyone knows what, how and why. No one really seems to be honest and it really creates a lot of failures in democracy.
Personally I think all parties and the voters need to take a careful look at exactly what is desired from a government and how to set things up to provide it as efficiently and responsibly as possible. Then have a plan longer than an election cycle, and be transparent with what you're doing so everyone knows what, how and why. No one really seems to be honest and it really creates a lot of failures in democracy.
The reason why "real" left-wing parties aren't running things is because of the people in this thread who think that "real" left-wing parties need to believe that capitalism is a menace that needs to be dismantled. They're fighting a battle they've already lost.
They can always cross their fingers and hope that people start starving in the streets like in Greece.
They can always cross their fingers and hope that people start starving in the streets like in Greece.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Short version is that since the center is so extremely well represented in most Euro issues, actual left (and right, to a lesser extent) wing parties need to be willing to really, really go for it, and most don't want to for various reasons.
Thus the "not actually left" posts.
Thus the "not actually left" posts.
The left has become afraid of its own principles.
The right is not afraid to start vexatious scare campaigns based on xenophobia or debt, but the left is terrified of being accused of class warfare when economic inequality is the worst it's been in a century.
If they don't offer an ideological alternative, why vote for them? Cartel politics is killing democracy.
The right is not afraid to start vexatious scare campaigns based on xenophobia or debt, but the left is terrified of being accused of class warfare when economic inequality is the worst it's been in a century.
If they don't offer an ideological alternative, why vote for them? Cartel politics is killing democracy.
ambientric
Banned
I would argue left wing/socialist policies of high tax and income redistribution ONLY ever work in highly homogenised societies.
Simply put, I am happy to help someone who looks/thinks/acts like me.
Where societies have high immigration and a melting pot of different cultures, socialist policies of income redistribution are not implemented.
I do not want to give my money to help that stranger.
Its tribal and you can see increasing retrenchment of socialist policies in countries where immigration from different cultures is increasing.
Simply put, I am happy to help someone who looks/thinks/acts like me.
Where societies have high immigration and a melting pot of different cultures, socialist policies of income redistribution are not implemented.
I do not want to give my money to help that stranger.
Its tribal and you can see increasing retrenchment of socialist policies in countries where immigration from different cultures is increasing.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't think it's even necessarily a case of people inherently wanting or not wanting to help a stranger (like at a basal psychological level), but more that strangers are easy targets for negative propaganda and scapegoating that teaches people to not want to help a stranger.
Even socialism assumed infinite growth. We need something else entirely.
freeofgreed
Member
Keynesian economics AKA Econ 101.
When your in a financial crisis the best way out of it is Expansionary fiscal policy AKA government spending.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Scotland just had a left wing Tsunami
Zuhzuhzombie!!
Member
Ding ding ding!
Reddit has been freaking out over Bernie Sanders lately.
"It's class war time! He's gonna change things!" etc etc.
Sanders is just barely left of Obama, who is about as Nixonian a Republican as you can get.
That said, on the bright side East Germany voted the Communists back in in a place or two.
Paracelsus
Member
Same reason over here, it's why I haven't voted twice already.
I'm reasonably certain the poster you quoted agrees with you.
The left in general seems to spend more time on infighting then the right. You end up with a Life of Brian situation where everyone on the left IS struggling together. That and rightwing ideas seem easier to condense into sound bites. That and there more intuitive at a "Common sense" level. Most people know about balancing a household budget, the advantages and workings of a fiat currency are outside the scope of everyday experience.
jakonovski
Member
Vis a vis Finland, the problem seems to be that the leading mentality is "let the last one turn off the light", and everything is austerity all the time and we're somehow the next Greece despite having just about the lowest debt of all eurozone countries.
This kind of thinking compounded the last crisis in the 90s and this time the euro will make it worse. I really hope I'm wrong.
This kind of thinking compounded the last crisis in the 90s and this time the euro will make it worse. I really hope I'm wrong.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Has anyone ever made a relatively recent spectrum of where all the political parties in the western world are on the spectrum?
From reading this thread I have a feeling many European spectra are sort of a mirror of the American spectrum. In that, the two main US parties are right and center-right, while the main European parties are, in practice, left and center-left.
From reading this thread I have a feeling many European spectra are sort of a mirror of the American spectrum. In that, the two main US parties are right and center-right, while the main European parties are, in practice, left and center-left.
Elaugaufein
Member
Its actually the opposite problem (and thus kind of similar) , the Republicans have swung so far right that they'd pick up more than than they'd lose by moving to the center (because there's not actually a lot of room to establish a viable right party on the ground they'd vacate).
The Centre-Left parties have generally moved so far right economical that the difference between them and conservative parties is largely a matter of how much social welfare is sacrificed to make things better for corporations and capital (they do tend to be different-ish on social policy though, probably because it effects funding way less) so they can't really inspire anyone leftward leaning (From left: "We're slightly less terrible than the other guy" isn't exactly an inspiring argument and from the right "We're going to do less of the thing that would make you vote for us than the other guy" isn't a winning argument either).
More Fun To Compute
Member
It's not even that severe.
The mainstream left will now openly accept bribes and jobs from corporations to affect policy with no shame. They will accept as taken ideas like privatisation is good because the free market is better at managing everything compared to the state. They simply have no will to provide a well argued alternative to the sort of flawed mainstream economics that caused the crisis and has no great answers to it.
Not at all, I know that I'm constantly manipulated by media. But I'm also lucky enough to be a postgraduate student, so when I see a headline saying 'Tory austerity working; economy recovers', I can ask my PhD economist friend who tells me that it's a crock of shit and that austerity did more harm than good.
At least in Denmark, the Right-Wing is gaining ground, not because of their economic position, but because of their position of their Immigration policy. (Most parties in Denmark are Center-Left, when it comes to Economic issues, except for one party that isn't doing that well.
In other words, when people mention that Right-Wing parties are making grounds, I'm always curious as to what sort of policies they have. Left-Right wing banter has traditionally been a way to diffirentiate on economic spending and nothing else. This means that the talk of Left and Right wing parties in pure terms are mostly meaningless, as a party can have a leftist approach to economic issues but extremely right-wing policies on Immigration issues.
In other words, when people mention that Right-Wing parties are making grounds, I'm always curious as to what sort of policies they have. Left-Right wing banter has traditionally been a way to diffirentiate on economic spending and nothing else. This means that the talk of Left and Right wing parties in pure terms are mostly meaningless, as a party can have a leftist approach to economic issues but extremely right-wing policies on Immigration issues.
If by victory you mean "centre-right losing a bunch of votes to a third, anti-immigration bloc, requiring the left to create one of the weakest minority governments in recent memory", then yes, they did!
The left did worse in 2014 compared to 2010, just by not as much as the centre-right.
Also, lots of salty communists in this thread.
I can see this already happening in Sweden. What once used to be the ideal of how a socialist country should be has in the past years had more and more libertarian influences in its public policies. This correlates well with the heterogenization of its peoples, where not only one culture or mindset is absolute. From an evolutionary point, this makes sense. People don't want to help strangers whom they can't relate to or trust without getting anything in return. It's a basic human nature.
This. The media have a huge responsibility in this, but the media can only convince people that know no better (and that's not arrogance, that's fact) and that's another huge problem: education. I don't know about other countries, but in Spain education has been a clusterfuck forever with no solution in sight, so lots of people are not educated and what's worse: they don't want to be.
So with half of the country being old wary people, and the other half being young uneducated and jobless it's no wonder the right has been strolling around like they own the place. I have to say I consider the socialist party to be right too (at least center-right), damn traitor fuckers and damn Gonzalez.
Then again, Spain is a weird country: we vote against and not for most of the time, and that's probably why the somewhat left parties we have now might have a shot in these elections.
QuicheFontaine
Member
cartoon_soldier
Member
I think the right in most European countries seems a lot better than the right in USA.
Marauder Shields
Member
Very interesting point and I can definitely seeing this being at least part of the reason.
theirsbailiff
Neo Member
what do you mean ?
and spain's left has a good chance iirc
What the fuck is this map supposed to tell us?
ClosingADoor
Member
Red = left government
Blue = right government
Yellow = center government or left/right party coalition
At least, I think so.
That is correct.
Sweden for instance recently voted in the Social Democrats (a left party) as the major party into the Riksdag, though not by a majority so currently our country should be painted shit brown because of the Swedish Democrats who got voted in (the "oh we are not!"-rascist party).
Palette Swap
Member
Your bit about France is incredibly simplistic and probably fueled by ignorance TBH.
I'm French, I'm working my ass off to create wealth and I've made a shitload of money on stocks. I'm fairly certain I couldn't have done that in USSR. Meanwhile, there are more people every year below the poverty line, their life is getting shittier everyday and they aren't all just waiting around because poor people have it so easy.
This is the politest answer I could muster to your Ayn Rand version of the Lonely Planet guide.
I'd agree if mine hadn't spent months protesting gay marriage. I used to be a right/center right voter but for a few years, I've just been spoiling ballots.
HarryHengst
Member
Haha, like class war isnt happening right now. The 0,1% is winning while the 99,9% is convinced class war isnt happening. Its amazing and i do have to respect the filthy rich for how they play it.
Paasei
Member
Here in the Netherlands, left-wing parties are terrible.
-They still believe in fairy tales, give immigrants rental homes over people who work and have been waiting to get one for 5+ years.
-Very supportive of the European Union, which is something I absolutely do NOT share with them.
-Fail or lack the balls to problem solving.
-Want to change our healthcare system to make it more of a luxury like in the US, which is terrible. Can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to think that's a good thing...
-Want students to pay even more money to be able to study. So this will also end up being a luxury.
Okay, okay, okay, I mostly focused on one party right here, but yet they get the most support from people. How? Populism. Only address issue's that are very recent to win some souls.
-They still believe in fairy tales, give immigrants rental homes over people who work and have been waiting to get one for 5+ years.
-Very supportive of the European Union, which is something I absolutely do NOT share with them.
-Fail or lack the balls to problem solving.
-Want to change our healthcare system to make it more of a luxury like in the US, which is terrible. Can't believe that anyone is stupid enough to think that's a good thing...
-Want students to pay even more money to be able to study. So this will also end up being a luxury.
Okay, okay, okay, I mostly focused on one party right here, but yet they get the most support from people. How? Populism. Only address issue's that are very recent to win some souls.
theirsbailiff
Neo Member
That's left wing policy in Holland? You're having a laugh, mate.
The free market has become a religion. I'm pretty far on the left of the spectrum and see absolutely no hope of having my views represented in the Oireachtas. It is near political suicide for parties to talk about redistributive and egalitarian economic policies. Immigration and demographics are also playing into the rights hands.
Were these things on their agenda before they formed the coalition government with the conservatives? And you do know how coalition governments function?
HarryHengst
Member
This is true, but not surprising. Economics has always been mostly a political and moral issue, not a rational, scientific one.
Economics used to be called political economics, which is a far better name. It acknowledges that it is a political issue and thus guided by certain moral principles. But now we pretend like economics is a science and thus the 'right' thing to do can be calculated. Curiously though the 'right thing' is somehow always what benefits corporations and the most wealthy of the world.
On the other hand, economists are fucking terrible at doing their jobs. Just look at the complete bewilderment that followed the start of the global financial crises.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I agree with this diagnosis. The happy period immediately after WW2 when growth was predictably robust and people were still having children to fund the welfare state increasingly looks like an aberration due to specific and exceptional conditions that probably aren't coming back.
yep, in complete agreement with this. Policy decisions are far more important in determining the economic climate than economists like to let on. Here in Ireland corporation tax is at 12.5%. That is insanely low and is reflective of how much sway big business has in modern "democracies".
Enosh
Member
the idea of the right controlling the bbc or the guardian is making me laugh
it's kinda amazing actually that with all the media control in the western world, cnn, msnb, bbc, the guardian, orf, the whole movie and tv industry etc etc the left is still barely able to get 50/50 with the right
but the right has some radio, fox news and some papers, the horror!
CyclopsRock
Member
Heh, so what was a vote for the SNP?
Messofanego
Banned
You should still vote. There's bound to be a party to suit your preferences.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
And immigration must increase because affluent secular states with comprehensive public welfare systems have sub-replacement level birthrates.
What are you basing this off i'm curious. Your own intuitive sense of realism or assumptions about human nature despite us barely understanding the brain at this point?
I do realize pre-thatcherite "revolution", western nations were starting to have issues with strong labor but you have to realize most western governments since then heavily bought into neoliberalism. I find it kind of silly to say that we can't have this back if we observe that what brought it into place was mostly removed. I do somewhat agree that the post-war era was kind of unique, people were tired of killing each other, huge destruction in capital and wealth that allowed nations to be more egalitarian and put more emphasis on meritocratic gain rather than wealth driven despotism. But I do not see why, internally speaking, the right polices and laws cannot steer us toward a similar dynamic. The external factors are certainly different, the developing world and asia, globalization and automation but this defacto assumption that this will ultimately lead to a zero-sum competition where we MUST rip each other's throats out is kind of the PROBLEM in itself. I'm all for finding new ways to build healthy societies, but social democracy is a pretty great thing if it is probably executed, and well we do have the data to show it unlike communism and unfettered liberal capitalism.
And no we won't all have 3-5 percent growth anymore, but going into a paranoia driven streak where we start cutting everything in order to try to get back the good old days instead of accepting 1.5-2 percent growth is a recipe for disaster.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
The theories include the extraordinary amount of pent-up demand built up during the Depression and the war, the obvious necessity of rebuilding from the destruction, the post-war baby boom, the great technological advances made during the war, and that military spending shrunk to all-time lows because Western Europeans understandably embraced pacifism and the Unites States had a bipartisan consensus to undertake responsibility for guaranteeing European security.
For Belgium, the answer is simple: in-fighting, weak governments and their efforts to keep unions in power while actively ignoring the problem the population cares about. Although, that is a bit unfair to say. The country is split in half, the Walloon version of Belgium adores their socialists. We do have actual center parties though so neither left or right ever gets too much in advance.
I won't deny that the conditions were ripe for a working welfare state to emerge, especially with regards to fueling the political will to do so. But i do not see this as evidence that contradicts the re-emergence of it. I don't think it will be easy, i just see it as a much better option than the known alternatives.
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