CyclopsRock
Member
But is what you suggest an alternative that's actionable? I dont expect you to produce a full roadmap, but how would you envision such a scenario returning in today's western world?
Why are European left-wing parties constantly getting blown up?
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But is what you suggest an alternative that's actionable? I dont expect you to produce a full roadmap, but how would you envision such a scenario returning in today's western world?
Quite frankly i'm not sure, Germany really needs to show some leadership and it probably won't given how it has behaved throughout the crisis. I'm really not sure what their endgame is tbh, yeah sure they are benefiting from the current setup but at what future cost to them and the EU. The truth of the matter is that politics is dictating the current economic paradigm and i'm not sure what needs to happen for it to change. Some left leaning intellectuals are calling for France to side with Italy, Spain and other southern nations in order to propose further integration based on a true parliamentary representative democratic process to pressure Germany in changing their tune. I'm not really optimistic myself, but what is the alternative? Crap like the FN rearing its ugly ass head all over the continent? I think the Euro is a fucking monstrosity but the EU is an important institution whose fate is tied with the promotion of a social democratic Europe. I think a two speed europe with a strong dedicated unified core sounds like the most theoreticaly feasible solution. In sum i guess you cornered me, i don't know how actionable this is given the current circumstances. The theoretical framework is there, the politics on the ground make it sound impossible, the resumption of the status-quo sounds dire. But i guess that's why i try to be optimistic because it is the only constructive thing to do.
The BBC is basically a propaganda machine for the party in power, and the Guardian has one of the lowest readerships out of any newspaper in the UK.
Didn't hear that one yet. But I live in Hamburg, where we almost have a SPD majority again
But yeah, I wouldn't call them a leftwing party anymore. Leftish at best. They are left only in name and history.
Never heard of the saying: "Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!" ?
The SPD is very, very often labeled as "traitors", as a party which has long lost it's traditional way of supporting labour class / middle class etc, instead being another CDU painted in red, as you're saying yourself. I'm from Hamburg too, btw.
Kotetsu534
Member
If you want my two cents, the rise of the political power of the left was a consequence of the power of the labour class (expressed via unions following the acquisition of the right to strike in the mid-late 19th century). The power of the labour class has taken a nosedive since the 1970s (consider wages as share of GDP, ever-increasing share of wealth held by the 0.1%), thanks to technological advances meaning production requires fewer workers at the same time as there's been an increased supply of labour (immigration and women). In-work benefits are now commonplace across Europe and the US, because large swaths of the labour force cannot command enough to earn food and shelter without government support*. With such a weak labour class, it is no surprise that the left is weak politically (and even where it does win elections, it is usually forced to adopt centrist policites; e.g. Blair's New Labour, reports that the SDP are often labelled traitors in this very thread, etc.).
*At the same time, there's been the growth of a small, but not tiny, class of well-educated skilled workers who can command good remuneration. Their interests conflict with those of the masses in the low-paid, insecure service sector.
*At the same time, there's been the growth of a small, but not tiny, class of well-educated skilled workers who can command good remuneration. Their interests conflict with those of the masses in the low-paid, insecure service sector.
UnluckyKate
Member
Would you vote for this guy ?
He's president of France. He's leading left party.
He's president of France. He's leading left party.
This description of France is so wrong it's not even funny.
To begin with, there are more than 20 million people in this country who are neither state employees nor jobless.
You say that unions are strong, but France is one of the OECD member countries with the lower unionization rate (less than one worker out of ten are members of unions).
You've already been corrected for this, but France is a capitalist country, otherwise you wouldn't find two French billionaires in the world's top 20 richest people, and there also wouldn't be 2.44 million millionaires in the country.
And finally, most of the French national debt in the last 30 years has been acquired when the right-wing was ruling the country:
They spent money like there's no tomorrow, and the current government has little room for manoeuvre left at this point, and this is why it cannot do much to help the situation, and hence not being popular.
That being said, Hollande looking ridiculous probably doesn't help, either.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
1) Times are tough. After every financial crisis throughout the last hundred years, people vote conservative. Because they are scared and less trusting. There is no room to do their duty and help people in worse conditions because they feel that they themselves are on the brink.
2) Europe is adjusting to new economic super powers while the EU fumbles with Greece, Italy and Spain threatening everything.
3) In Scandinavia, the working population that makes the money is around 40% while the remaining 60% (old people, children, sick people, disabled people, people who cant work for other reasons) are living on social systems - school, health, care, institutions that are upkept by the 40%. That is why taxes are so high. It's why buying a car is 4 times more expensive than in the US. It's why we have 20-25% import taxes, and added EU VATs.
But the fear has been for many years that our social systems will crumble under opening the gates for refugees. integrating them and their families is expensive, treating those of them that are psychologically affected with PTSD could bar them for life, making them extremely expensive to maintain.
These fears are not completely unfounded, but right wing parties run on that fear, and like everywhere else, old people are scared. To add to injury, since the recession began cuts always start in the welfare systems. schools and hospitals and elderly care gets the tightest budget cuts. its never related to business, infrastructure, military or new expensive projects, and so people become jaded.
The classic scapegoat that "everything used to be better" casts the blame on immigrants. Young people are seen a crybabies who cant find their bootstraps
All in all, with BRIC affecting everything, Europe is more pressured than before. It has to be this way because we need more equally distributed wealth in the world, but it will take time for europe to acclimatize.
If you look at a country like India, they are not about social welfare at all. Modi won the election by saying that he will do what China did. He will make the country rich, and Indians are thrilled because it means more job opportunities for everybody.
When a country is doing good, when it is rich, you run more on quality of life and human rights. India is trying to escape its poverty so it is willing to suffer to shake itself the ground and get a rising middle-class. They see this as the only way forward. In Europe many countries are afraid that they are going to lose their rights for citizens. Not just with surveillance, but also in relation to corporate rights.
The fact is, the world is going to face an incredible crisis once the automation industry will takes off. It will mark the end of the digital revolution and usher in hundreds of millions of people who will be without a job, because it will be replaced by robots.
I think the biggest fallacy of right wing governments all powerful "companies are what makes a country rich, so allow companies to do almost anything" mentality, is that companies are only good for making jobs as long as the company thinks it serves their own best interest. They will outsource as soon as they have to. They will replace people with robots as soon as it makes sense.
But we're not there yet. But retail is dwindling. And it's going to be a lot more than that soon.
Education and health is going to go more online, class rooms are going to get bigger, elderly homes are going to be more and more like some sort of airport, as we live longer and longer and become more and more elderly.
I don't know if any of this is true. I just /showerthoughts
2) Europe is adjusting to new economic super powers while the EU fumbles with Greece, Italy and Spain threatening everything.
3) In Scandinavia, the working population that makes the money is around 40% while the remaining 60% (old people, children, sick people, disabled people, people who cant work for other reasons) are living on social systems - school, health, care, institutions that are upkept by the 40%. That is why taxes are so high. It's why buying a car is 4 times more expensive than in the US. It's why we have 20-25% import taxes, and added EU VATs.
But the fear has been for many years that our social systems will crumble under opening the gates for refugees. integrating them and their families is expensive, treating those of them that are psychologically affected with PTSD could bar them for life, making them extremely expensive to maintain.
These fears are not completely unfounded, but right wing parties run on that fear, and like everywhere else, old people are scared. To add to injury, since the recession began cuts always start in the welfare systems. schools and hospitals and elderly care gets the tightest budget cuts. its never related to business, infrastructure, military or new expensive projects, and so people become jaded.
The classic scapegoat that "everything used to be better" casts the blame on immigrants. Young people are seen a crybabies who cant find their bootstraps
All in all, with BRIC affecting everything, Europe is more pressured than before. It has to be this way because we need more equally distributed wealth in the world, but it will take time for europe to acclimatize.
If you look at a country like India, they are not about social welfare at all. Modi won the election by saying that he will do what China did. He will make the country rich, and Indians are thrilled because it means more job opportunities for everybody.
When a country is doing good, when it is rich, you run more on quality of life and human rights. India is trying to escape its poverty so it is willing to suffer to shake itself the ground and get a rising middle-class. They see this as the only way forward. In Europe many countries are afraid that they are going to lose their rights for citizens. Not just with surveillance, but also in relation to corporate rights.
The fact is, the world is going to face an incredible crisis once the automation industry will takes off. It will mark the end of the digital revolution and usher in hundreds of millions of people who will be without a job, because it will be replaced by robots.
I think the biggest fallacy of right wing governments all powerful "companies are what makes a country rich, so allow companies to do almost anything" mentality, is that companies are only good for making jobs as long as the company thinks it serves their own best interest. They will outsource as soon as they have to. They will replace people with robots as soon as it makes sense.
But we're not there yet. But retail is dwindling. And it's going to be a lot more than that soon.
Education and health is going to go more online, class rooms are going to get bigger, elderly homes are going to be more and more like some sort of airport, as we live longer and longer and become more and more elderly.
I don't know if any of this is true. I just /showerthoughts
1. The euro is "threatening everything"
2. While the entire solvency of the european banking system is at stake, the ECB is desperately trying to save the french and german big banks who heavily levered on peripheral debt before and during the crisis to make a quick buck. Spain had a tiny debt to gdp ratio before the crisis and Greece has always had problems but were always less than 2% of the EU economy so if said banks weren't involved the contagion would have been much less significant even perhaps fairly negligible. Now those countries are in a total mess with enormous youth unemployment but it is largely because of the fiscal reforms that were imposed due to the crisis and loss of credibility perceived by foreign investments.
HarryHengst
Member
The power of labour has been decreasing, yes. But its not solely due to technological changes. Never forget what Reagan and Thatcher did to break unions and convince people that free markets are the greatest thing ever and that it is unnecessary to collectively bargain as employees, but that every man should look out for himself. While on the other side we see employers connect through all kinds of manners, from organisations to informal meetings to outright wage fixing (google, apple etc.).
And workers, especially in America and Britain, fell for it all. So sometimes, when im feeling cynical, i cannot help thinking that workers deserve all they get.
I love this post. It is a perfect example of why economics is a moral and political issue, not a scientific one: he sees "left-wing government rules france" and immediately goes 'strong unions, high taxes, no reason to get wealthy, huge national debt'. Without anything to base it on.
Gurgelhals
Member
Don't forget that the Western world also managed to effectively outsource a significant part of their working class. It's no wonder the power of the working class has decreased throughout Europe when you consider that production has largely moved to countries like China. I live in a traditional industrial / working class city (think the Swiss equivalent of cities like Sheffield or Manchester) and the heavy industry / manufacturing has, since the 1970s, basically disappeared, the factories have been converted into lofts, offices, etc. What has remained is the kind of highly specialised high-tech manufacturing (things like medical implants, high precision measuring instruments, etc.) and you won't find the people working there to share the traditional concerns of the old working class.
Furthermore, what has remained of the 'real' working class usually votes conservative today (or doesn't vote at all because they're immigrants with no voting rights). I think this has also to do with the fact that today's left is in some way split from within: You have, on the one hand, the remains of the traditional left (i.e. factory workers, trade unions, etc.) and, on the other hand, the post-1968 new left with its stronger focus on social, cultural and environmental issues, its affluent middle-class background and its socially very liberal values - everything of which never really managed to gel that much with the values and concerns of the traditional left. So the new left managed to drive a significant part of the old left into the arms of right wing conservatives.
zero shift
Banned
Economics in theory should be a scientific issue. However what prevents that is that economics not only plays so close to the chest of one's political beliefs and values, but also because unlike other sciences you can't do anything to really experiment with what does work and what doesn't. All you can do is observe, looks at the factors, and hypothesize.
MistakenMobius
Member
Left/Right as a simplistic axes doesn't make any sense in european today politic
let's take the major party of france
- UMP: Classified as Right wing yet cannot stop spending money to hell, made less privatisation than the left. big on national pride
- PS: Socialist Party, have as much ties to big business and crony capitalsim as the UMP. Has officially vouched that they don't need the vote of the working force anymore and they should just import immigrant to replace those vote
- FN/ Extreme right wing, started as mismatch of small business owner, nostagilc facist and traditional catholic. Today it's probably the first worker party of France and is trying to shed the old guard that doesn't look goods
actually run by the Lannister family
- UDI: very vaguely related to christian democrat, actually people from the Neutral planet
- Green party: incompetent fools that are very happy to eat in the pot when they qre invited by the PS
- Front de gauche: want to present itself as the left alternative to the PS: yet vote like a lapdog all their policy
- PCF: lost all their voters to FN
- NPA, LO, etc...: All leftist micro-parties that seems to spend far more time to bicker between who is a true communist and who is a social-traitor rather than actually doing anything on a local level
Only fools try to mathematize it
let's take the major party of france
- UMP: Classified as Right wing yet cannot stop spending money to hell, made less privatisation than the left. big on national pride
- PS: Socialist Party, have as much ties to big business and crony capitalsim as the UMP. Has officially vouched that they don't need the vote of the working force anymore and they should just import immigrant to replace those vote
- FN/ Extreme right wing, started as mismatch of small business owner, nostagilc facist and traditional catholic. Today it's probably the first worker party of France and is trying to shed the old guard that doesn't look goods
actually run by the Lannister family
- UDI: very vaguely related to christian democrat, actually people from the Neutral planet
- Green party: incompetent fools that are very happy to eat in the pot when they qre invited by the PS
- Front de gauche: want to present itself as the left alternative to the PS: yet vote like a lapdog all their policy
- PCF: lost all their voters to FN
- NPA, LO, etc...: All leftist micro-parties that seems to spend far more time to bicker between who is a true communist and who is a social-traitor rather than actually doing anything on a local level
Well Economic should be a social science, because it interaction between to individual or groups of individuals.
Only fools try to mathematize it
SpoonyBard
Banned
The rise of populistic right wing parties is taking voters away from left wing parties. The promise work and lower taxes to unempoyed and those with low paying jobs, and this has been traditionally what left wing parties have been saying. And also what certain national socialist party was saying back at the time, so the tradition goes both ways. In Finland it's pretty obvious that this one populistic right wing party is full of shit, and now that they are getting to be one of the governing parties, people are peobably going to realize it. Or maybe not, let's see in 4 years.
edit:
The Finnish government is going to be formed by these 3 socially conservative parties:
Keskusta - centre party, actually pro small business and farmers party. Some libertarian values. Current leader, soon to be prime minister, is an IT millionaire, trying to use his business methods in politics. So far successfully, when he was in opposition, but frankly he seems like a bit of a dick, and unable to compromise.
The Finns - populistic right wing party, combination of wanting certain taxes to be lowered for poor, some raised for rich, casual racism, and ultra conservative values.
Kokoomus - right wing coalition party, pro big business, anti poor people. This party can be also socially liberal when it suits their needs.
Something tells me that the next 4 years are not going to be good for the country, these parties seem to agree that the government spending should be lowered. So they are going to cut public sector jobs most likely, and that will lead to ever more unemployment.
edit:
The Finnish government is going to be formed by these 3 socially conservative parties:
Keskusta - centre party, actually pro small business and farmers party. Some libertarian values. Current leader, soon to be prime minister, is an IT millionaire, trying to use his business methods in politics. So far successfully, when he was in opposition, but frankly he seems like a bit of a dick, and unable to compromise.
The Finns - populistic right wing party, combination of wanting certain taxes to be lowered for poor, some raised for rich, casual racism, and ultra conservative values.
Kokoomus - right wing coalition party, pro big business, anti poor people. This party can be also socially liberal when it suits their needs.
Something tells me that the next 4 years are not going to be good for the country, these parties seem to agree that the government spending should be lowered. So they are going to cut public sector jobs most likely, and that will lead to ever more unemployment.
Gurgelhals
Member
The scary / facepalm-y thing about the situation in France is that I can see them voting in Sarkozy for a second time in 2017 :-/
zero shift
Banned
You can "mathematize" social science as much as you want. There are plenty of general accepted laws of nature within sociology and psychology. However, because you can't directly engage in a firm experiment (without undergoing mass human rights violations) there is a lot of gray area where people constantly bicker and argue due to their beliefs and values (see gender studies). Economics is essentially that but turbo. The problem is people don't often like to admit that something isn't 100% certain since their views cloud their judgment.
Would you vote for this guy ?
I'm going to assume you're making a reference to how he looks in *that* photograph rather than his policies.
CyclopsRock
Member
I can't speak for the US but in the UK the desire to "smash" the unions wasn't so that businesses could make more money, it's because the unions had - in a country where almost all major infrastructure and even many other industries were nationalised - not only enormous power but entirely unaccountable power. They could, and did, destroy the British economy for quite a while. The only way the actual British people could have a say was at the ballot box, and they elected Maggie 3 times in a row, if that tells you anything about how much support the unions had outside of their own membership.
I dont think this is true. A scientific approach and utilisation of Data is great but only when you have already defined what your metrics of success to pursue are. For example, in the UK in the last 5 years our employment growth has been enormous and our wage growth has been poor. To some degree these things are related but it's not immediately obvious which is more desirable. This is just one example obv.
I don`t see Finnish right-wing parties on being anywhere close to actually being right-wing. The truth is that shitty left-wing parties are being blown up while the less shitty ones are being elected. The "left" is a cesspool of failure here in Finland and can`t see the forest for the trees or compromise benefactory for pragmatic solutions.
Anyway, i don`t like how OP lumps different European countries political landscape together. Our right-wing parties are vastly different from the other ones. Same thing applies for the majority of other countries.
Anyway, i don`t like how OP lumps different European countries political landscape together. Our right-wing parties are vastly different from the other ones. Same thing applies for the majority of other countries.
StealthGoblin
Banned
My personal opinion is that the left presents visions of where everyone can have anything. Unfortunately we are going through a period of strained financial pressure in Europe.
People are more likely to believe the people who say 'things are tough and we are going to have to make some awful decisions to get things going again' over the lefts 'we can maintain high welfare costs and pay for everything'.
People just don't want to risk the little they have with 'ideas'. Politicians are all elusive, but at least the right tend to speak in a forthright manner.
People are more likely to believe the people who say 'things are tough and we are going to have to make some awful decisions to get things going again' over the lefts 'we can maintain high welfare costs and pay for everything'.
People just don't want to risk the little they have with 'ideas'. Politicians are all elusive, but at least the right tend to speak in a forthright manner.
Globalization has really given corporations a huge platform... it's disheartening. Outside of this I also think technology has played a huge role. It allows individuals and corporations alike to get things done incredibly fast, often outpacing the way any given Government is supposed to function. How countries adapt to that I have no idea.
The Eurozone is our last hope for legitimate leftist policies. That ship sailed here in the 80's when Reagan moved the entire political spectrum in this country to the right.
The Eurozone is our last hope for legitimate leftist policies. That ship sailed here in the 80's when Reagan moved the entire political spectrum in this country to the right.
Which is ironic, because Austerity in England *created* the recession on the back of 2010's initial recovery.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Why haven't we been quoting Paul Krugman up in here?
zero shift
Banned
The thing is that you can look at history and policies enacted in multiple nations to get an idea of what works, what doesn't work, and what is likely to happen if a certain policy is in place. For example it is widely agreed that Soviet economic policy stunts both growth and innovation. It is also widely agreed that there is a strong correlation between how democratic a nation and the amount of free speech that nation has.
In terms of your example, I think something that would better relate would be to ask why wage growth has been slow in the U.K. while employment has grown. What is the exact cause of it? The problem with that is that there are too many factors.
Latin America has seen a huge resurgence in successful left leaning governments (there is more to the pink tide than Venezuela). There are also developing nations that may take a different turn in the future, particularly those in Africa.
Never been that much of a fan of him. Especially since he said that sweatshops are necessary.
Hans.Gruber
Banned
Exactly, here in Germany our "Republicans" the CDU are proabably more left wing than the Democrats in the US. Chancellor Merkel is really good at stealing topics from left wing and green parties. There is a coalition with the SPD right now anyways, so as we speak there is no right wing party in our parliament.
Why the "real" left wing parties don't seem to be relevant?
As a citizen of Berlin I lived under a SPD-Die Linke government and have to admit that most of the Linke-politicians are incompetent and can't be taken seriously.
Take the spiritual leader Gregor Gysi for example, he is preaching "spread the wealth" anytime he can, but where is his law firm located? It's in the Fasanenstr. near the Ku'damm, which is the most expensive area in Berlin (think Champs Elysee, 5th Avenue).
Too many left wing politicians have been caught with that "preach water, drink wine" B.S. that only umemployed people(core demographic), people who miss the GDR and hardcore socialists are voting for them. The Green party does a way better job at being a left wing party.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Unfortunately green (nature green, not libertarian green) parties often drive policies that are harmful for the average worker or unemployed folks. Like high energy taxes or making owning cars more expensive. And usually they are pretty populistic and avoid difficult subjects, like being always against nuclear energy instead of being agains oil and coal.
Social dmocrats used to be better at being green than green parties.
Social dmocrats used to be better at being green than green parties.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Because reactionary, illiberal leftism is dead in the water in 2015.
Well this is clearly wrong. Our incumbent prime minister for example is a fan of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of objectivism, while our next prime minister is a fundamentalist christian. Of course these things don't affect their parties lines, but if you look closer you find a fair amount of really right-wing rhetoric and policies from them.
What you're alluding to for them not being close to right wing would have been more true with the older generation of politicians who had to deal with parties with very strong backing support, in which environment negotiation skills and the ability to form a consensus was vital. Right wing parties still were hugely conservative and right wing, but a strong opposition kept them relatively in check. They had to adopt support for many left wing policies for example, because they are just that popular that going against them would be a party suicide.
Nowadays the political environment has changed in a way that as more people has become part of the middle class there aren't that clear cut social lines within the society, they still exist though. This has produced a climate where the base support for parties isn't certain and the strong backing support is becoming progressively less so. And in the process there is more space for proper right wing policies to flourish, and new and coming generation of right-wing politicians is definately on the right.
How exactly are they right-wing in anything but the context of Finnish politics? In the whole of Europe, i can hardly call them anything but left.
Ravensmash
Member
But then you have people claiming that the BBC has a clear left bias, against the Conservative government?
Which is it? Perhaps they piss people off on both sides, which is a pretty good sign.
Guardian does have a low readership, but it also has a very high readership online. I think its website is something like the third most popular news site based in the UK.
At the same time, Keynesian policies were best positioned to solve issues of aggregate demand. Yes all these factors helped enable stunning growth but the dynamics of Keynesianism were also perfectly suited/needed for what occurred. Otherwise it is more likely there would have been a recessionary period post WW2 as seen during after WW1 as liberal markets were unable to transition smoothly to a peacetime economy.
This is probably the best textbook answer. However, the achievement of major social justice goals during the keynesian era and the higher standard of living allowed for that shift to occur. It is only recently with the focus on inequality and environmental issues that there are social issues that coincide with a need for socialist policies.
I'm in the French Riviera at the moment and I see lots of people who are obviously well off, financially. None of them seem to be packing their bags to flee the oppressive government you described. I also see lots of people who I would wager are middle income and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves, too. It's a small, seaside town. It's not glitzy or flashy like Nice or Monaco, but it is located extremely close to the latter yet it's a far more genuine place. A town like this couldn't exist in California without being insanely expensive.
I went to the store and was able to find a large selection of everything I wanted from food to toilet paper. I didn't have to wait in line for hours for a very limited selection of crap, unlike the USSR. My groceries cost significantly less than they do in Los Angeles. And the food is better quality.
They must be doing something right here.
Giant Panda
Member
I'd say the first reason is that a lot of the popular ideas of the left-wing parties have already been enacted. Left-wing parties that just advocate the status quo don't have much appeal, but the new things they suggest just don't have as much popularity.
I'd say the second reason, at least for some countries, is that left-wing parties have been advocating bad socialistic economic policies. Poorly planned socialist policies will just make doing business a pain in the ass, which just results in less business, without benefiting "the people" much at all.
I'd say the second reason, at least for some countries, is that left-wing parties have been advocating bad socialistic economic policies. Poorly planned socialist policies will just make doing business a pain in the ass, which just results in less business, without benefiting "the people" much at all.
HarryHengst
Member
Most rules that favour businesses do not favour the people. Rules like say less worker protection, or lower minimum wages, or right to work bullshit. So clearly that cannot be the answer for why left-wing policies are less popular.
HarryHengst
Member
Fox News is conservative liberal (as in socially conservative, economic liberal) and does exactly what you describe.
Can only speak for the UK, but the Conservative's message of prosperity vs the Labour message of help the poorest and tax the richest didn't resonate.
Fundamentally, the UK is a fiscally conservative country by European standards and a message of upwards social mobility resonates with the people here.
A left-wing political party hasn't won an election in the UK since the mid-70s.
Labour under Blair was centrist, which allowed him to attract the middle class voters.
It's also worth noting that the Conservative government legalised gay marriage in the last parliament, so it isn't exactly very socially conservative.
Fundamentally, the UK is a fiscally conservative country by European standards and a message of upwards social mobility resonates with the people here.
A left-wing political party hasn't won an election in the UK since the mid-70s.
Labour under Blair was centrist, which allowed him to attract the middle class voters.
It's also worth noting that the Conservative government legalised gay marriage in the last parliament, so it isn't exactly very socially conservative.
The Left already won in the post-war consensus period. Everything since then has been the Right slowly clawing their way back to relevance, with brief periods in which they claw back slightly more rapidly.
This is just the most recent period of the Right's ascendancy, but they still trail in the long game.
I wouldn't say this is true for the UK, so much as it is true for England.
Scotland clearly has a different political culture, leaning much further left. Wales is still slightly leftwards, though not as much as it used to.
NI is a different beast entirely, and the right there is closer to the American style Religious Right than the classically English Liberal Right.
Of course, England so vastly overpowers the other constituent parts of the UK that what England wants, England gets.
This is just the most recent period of the Right's ascendancy, but they still trail in the long game.
I wouldn't say this is true for the UK, so much as it is true for England.
Scotland clearly has a different political culture, leaning much further left. Wales is still slightly leftwards, though not as much as it used to.
NI is a different beast entirely, and the right there is closer to the American style Religious Right than the classically English Liberal Right.
Of course, England so vastly overpowers the other constituent parts of the UK that what England wants, England gets.
Xisiqomelir
Member
They need to cede 44 years of power to a European Ralph Klein first.
True, it is important to make those distinctions.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, UK also suffers from the outdated voting system which make it quite hard for the opposition to stay relevant.
Gurgelhals
Member
That's what I'm not so sure about. The underlying assumption of this view is that social progress is an irreversable process, yet there's no real evidence for this to be the case. Who can say, for example, that at the end of this century this world won't have completely doubled back on itself and turned into a cyberpunk-style coporate dystopia (though probably without all the cool gadgets and technology)? I'll gladly be proven wrong about this though.
Germany: The SPD seems to be doing decently, the CDU is mostly coasting on the personality cult of Merkel. Since we're talking about regular left parties here I'm looking at the SPD, not absurd parties like Die Linke (serious excerpt from their election program: Abolish our military, enter into a defensive pact with Russia) who were never going to get any serious vote numbers anyway.
Also I don't know where to place the Green party. Probably fairly left too.
Yes, the SPD brought us the Hartz programme with its "competitive at all costs" approach, dismantling safety nets and slowing wage increases that eventually led to us destroying Europe's whole economy. But they still fight against the CDU and especially the CSU, in the trademark naive fashion of the leftist parties where they honour their deals with the right but the right want to re-negotiate them all the time.
Though I wish we could do something about those CSU bastards. Their politics seem to be based on a bunch of yokels shouting their Imperial-era paroles and the CDU isn't willing to tell them to GTFO so they have a disproportionate amount of power at the federal level. Ah well, I hope the EU will smash their stupid road toll plans and their refusal to allow power line construction gives them a nasty brownout in their state a few years down the line. Give them the consequences of their short-sighted politics.
Sorry, got a bit ranting there. Big coalition governments suck. Normally you need a less authoritarian minor party (liberals, greens) attached to the big parties to reign their bullshit in but the big coalition means it's just the big arseholes.
So yeah, apologies to Europe for fucking you guys over but the political rhetoric of the "good housewife" promoting austerity seems to go over too well with the public at large because it seems intuitive and tells people that we're great and it's the other countries who failed and bootstraps and all that shit. As our political comedy scene say, "so all those countries just need to be the world leaders in exports!"
You're confusing different interpretations of the term "liberal". Fox News is not in any way liberal in the way the liberal parties we're talking about here are.
Also I don't know where to place the Green party. Probably fairly left too.
Yes, the SPD brought us the Hartz programme with its "competitive at all costs" approach, dismantling safety nets and slowing wage increases that eventually led to us destroying Europe's whole economy. But they still fight against the CDU and especially the CSU, in the trademark naive fashion of the leftist parties where they honour their deals with the right but the right want to re-negotiate them all the time.
Though I wish we could do something about those CSU bastards. Their politics seem to be based on a bunch of yokels shouting their Imperial-era paroles and the CDU isn't willing to tell them to GTFO so they have a disproportionate amount of power at the federal level. Ah well, I hope the EU will smash their stupid road toll plans and their refusal to allow power line construction gives them a nasty brownout in their state a few years down the line. Give them the consequences of their short-sighted politics.
Sorry, got a bit ranting there. Big coalition governments suck. Normally you need a less authoritarian minor party (liberals, greens) attached to the big parties to reign their bullshit in but the big coalition means it's just the big arseholes.
So yeah, apologies to Europe for fucking you guys over but the political rhetoric of the "good housewife" promoting austerity seems to go over too well with the public at large because it seems intuitive and tells people that we're great and it's the other countries who failed and bootstraps and all that shit. As our political comedy scene say, "so all those countries just need to be the world leaders in exports!"
You're confusing different interpretations of the term "liberal". Fox News is not in any way liberal in the way the liberal parties we're talking about here are.
Hans.Gruber
Banned
While I agree with most of what you said, I don't think the big coalition is really the nightmare you make it out as. And calling the CSU "bastards" is kinda dumb, when these guys are running our most competetive state we have. I don't like theri rhetorics either, but they reach ppl with it. We in Berlin would be broke as F if we wouldn't get those checks from Bavaria every year.
But you are right, the only acceptable lefty party we have are the "Greens" right now. Allthough they attract a lot of rich voters which makes them the green FDP in my eyes.
NobleXenon
Member
No one likes poor people, including poor people.
Eh, Blue State America (West and Northeast Coast) is doing incredibly well in regards to leftist policies as well as the economy.
Eh, Blue State America (West and Northeast Coast) is doing incredibly well in regards to leftist policies as well as the economy.
Giant Panda
Member
As an example, something many left-wing governments try to do, either directly or indirectly, is make it harder for businesses to fire people. I would guess from your way of thinking that this would be a benefit for "the people". While this does help the people that already have a job, it hurts everyone else as businesses hire fewer people, and use more short term contracts.
You seem to be totally dismissing the possibility that some workers want a healthy economy and will vote for the party that they perceive to offer that, even if their policies aren't as nominally beneficial to "the people".
Interesting, do you have evidence for that?
Uh you set the bar pretty low. Not aware of the best coast curbing financial indentured servitude like education costs or ridiculous health care expenditures. The west coast blows, just not as much as the rest of the US. The last vestiges of social democracy really are in western europe and their eventual failure and marginalization will be one of the saddest events in modern history. No im not being dramatic. The post war years are quite possibly the most progressive , prosperous and humane years in a given region... like ever
Well, let's check the Programme of Principles of the main center-right party and see how much of leftist rhetoric we can find: https://www.kokoomus.fi/en/programme-of-principles/
Chapter 1:
- "Human freedom and responsibility for actions are important"
- "Equality of opportunities"
- "objective is to preserve and support our national heritage, Finland’s languages and cultures"
- "emphasizing the individual and entrepreneurship are key"
- "The National Coalition Party believes in equality of opportunities and freedom of choice. Individuals make decisions and choices in society."
- "Christian ethics and values are an important part of this Finnish cultural heritage."
- "The market economy has gained broad approval by proving its effectiveness in making prosperity possible"
This is not leftist rhetoric at all, it's about bootstraps and nationalism. Neither are the policies they've driven: privatisation of public services, getting rid of the principle of free education, tax breaks for the rich, attempting to get rid of inheritance tax, supporting zero hour contracts and free market labour policies... And it's not right wing just in Finnish context.
I really have to ask why would you consider them left?
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