I'd advise watching the whole thing before you assume what it's about.
Why are there still so many white men in video games
- Thread starter Kater
- Start date
- Status
Watched the beginning and I gotta say that's a terrible argument.
Cosmopolitan is one magazine, while videogames are a medium. Big difference.
Wasn't that the underlying complaint? The expectations were relatively low and the budgets for marketing made it into a self fulfilling prophecy.
They're pretty much the opposite scenarios outside of both missing their bars.
Tomb Raider's expectations were ridiculous based upon recent Tomb Raider experience (though TR was that big at one point), but expecting 5-6 mil units for a AAA shooter that took multiple years isn't that unusual (Dead Space 3, Bioshock Infinite and Medal of Honor).
Remember Me got hyped by some feminists desperate to make Remember Me some sort of social justice issue/bought into the devs sob story about how having a female lead make it difficult to get the game published even as it was being published by Sony and almost immediately picked up by Capcom after Sony dropped it.
ShinMaruku
Member
The mushroom and getting high is a Japanese man's vision and I will never try to get into his head. The former part can come from pop culture and comics which they know. Really it's not so much an agenda and more just they think that is how it has been and it's what they know. You want more varied designers well you have several things to right (Which in righting would be far more worthy than just fixing games)
BloodMoney
Banned
Why are there so many white male game developers, might be a better question.... Answer: socioeconomic privilage.
Edit: point being... There is an obvious answer to all of these race/sex/sexual orientaton threads (with regard to game development), and it simply involves opening ones eyes and observing the world. I'm not saying things can't or shouldn't change, but this shit is getting awfully redundant. Borderline clickbate.
Edit: point being... There is an obvious answer to all of these race/sex/sexual orientaton threads (with regard to game development), and it simply involves opening ones eyes and observing the world. I'm not saying things can't or shouldn't change, but this shit is getting awfully redundant. Borderline clickbate.
Probably this. Marketing research are no jokes. If there were a consistent demand for non-white protags, you'd probably get them. As it is now, there isn't. Simply that .
TeddyShardik
Banned
I don't even disagree with that completely, if nothing chnages you have to keep "reminding"(I really can't think of a better word right now...>.<) the industry of your problems but that's just not what I think is happening. I doubt these calls get ignored by developers even if it's only because they fear losing a pretty big audience and not because they think it's the right thing to do.
Maybe I'm just a bit too trusting in this case but I really think things are changing.
SillyEskimo
Member
Here's a list of black characters in video games. They're missing a shitload too.
http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/ryonslaught/lists/black-video-game-characters/69288/
The main dude in Starhawk was black. Many sports games are dominated by non-whites. Wasn't the main villian in Twisted Metal a black dude?
Now you tell me where all my eskimo brethren are. Ice Climbers doesn't count because it's racist as fuck. They based an entire game off making fun of our stereotypes!
I should probably keep my mouth shut because I lack the ability to communicate on a level required not to be yelled at...
But I suspect it comes from 2 things. Risk-aversion and a push for 'realisim.'
We get a lot FPS and military shooters.... I'm not sure where we are with women on the front lines in real life. But I see a lot of FPS and it used to be WW2 etc... so if you are going for realisim that could be one thing...
Also... they look at trends and say... 'lightning didnt work out so well... etc' so they just look at a graph and say 'if you want my company to lay down 500mil for this game I want you to take every precaution you can.' Heck, we know Bayonetta is an amazing game but it didnt sell well. If you want to keep employing people and make more games you take the easiest road you can find.
Nobody is saying it is right to have more men than women as leads etc... but this is probably the reason. I see a fair number of female characters out there.
But I suspect it comes from 2 things. Risk-aversion and a push for 'realisim.'
We get a lot FPS and military shooters.... I'm not sure where we are with women on the front lines in real life. But I see a lot of FPS and it used to be WW2 etc... so if you are going for realisim that could be one thing...
Also... they look at trends and say... 'lightning didnt work out so well... etc' so they just look at a graph and say 'if you want my company to lay down 500mil for this game I want you to take every precaution you can.' Heck, we know Bayonetta is an amazing game but it didnt sell well. If you want to keep employing people and make more games you take the easiest road you can find.
Nobody is saying it is right to have more men than women as leads etc... but this is probably the reason. I see a fair number of female characters out there.
If you watch the whole video, he shows he's all for inclusivity and says that if more women are willing to make videogames, then we'll see more games that resonate with them. He's not saying men make games only for men, so much as people naturally make games with which they identify themselves. Thus, if more women made games, the inverse would naturally occur. He also notes how there are exceptions, like Jade at Ubisoft, so he's aware that men can work with female characters and vice-versa. But the point still stands that if mostly one gender is working in a medium, chances are most of the work produced will be something that appeals to that one gender.
R10Neymarfan
Member
And there will probably never will be the day that happens. At least in our lifetimes.
In a world where minorities would start to rule the most and become the majority, then maybe. But never will it ever happen. We used to be being underrep
JK Rowling wrote a book full of male and female characters with diverse ethnical ascendence. And she's not even a good writer, in my opinion. I bet those writers (male or female and with whatever what ethnical background) at Ubisoft could create characters like hers with ease.
DangerousDave
Member
Because there are more white males that apply to those job offers. No healthy company will survive in this competitive world if they discard better workers and accept worse ones because of the gender.
Also, a lot of the works in videogame industry are require technological degrees, and in those colleges there are much more males than females.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
"So let me get this straight: Video games are created by men, for men?... no shit"
Yeah... no.
"Why would you expect men to do a good job of representing women in media? We don't identify with being female"
"Men aren't doing a good job of portraying women, and they shouldn't be expected to"
Yeah, we aren't women... so we shouldn't even try to get accurate portrayals, consult with women, do research, etc. I guess. Excuse me while I clean my gun, oogle my playboy magazine, and do other manly stuff.
Not only that, be he goes straight to the "Men are men, women are women" argument when a lot about gender identity is fluid and are social constructs. Ironically, he fails to realize that by making this argument, he is contributing to traditional gender role thought patterns which keep women out of the industry, even though he says he wants more women in the industry.
And at the end, he flat out says: "Step up, make your own game, and shut up"... because we all have that luxury.
It's a video with poorly constructed arguments.
"If you want something done right, do it yourself."
I think that is how the saying goes.
Why does this not apply here? Is gaming exempt from this rule? Why are people who are a minority in this industry complaining about being a minority?
It is up to you to create a larger presence. The majority cannot be held accountable for being a majority.
I think that is how the saying goes.
Why does this not apply here? Is gaming exempt from this rule? Why are people who are a minority in this industry complaining about being a minority?
It is up to you to create a larger presence. The majority cannot be held accountable for being a majority.
Do you think their identities have any effect on the validity of their arguments?
The majority can be held accountable in cases where they make the environment hostile to everyone else, which is something that has been known to happen in this industry.
I will give you a hint about some other fields in which this is relevant: The predominance of white men in politics is not a consequence of white men wanting it the most and trying the hardest.
ProfessorMoran
Member
I like playing as a thirty-something white male.
Basically. There are many, many, many women who love videogames. They just need to take that extra step and apply for the roles that have a direct hand in shaping the creative content of a game. The more that this happens, the more likely we are to see games with characters and characterization that appeal to women.
Note: This is not to say men are incapable of creating characters that appeal to women or to both genders. Of course not.
The argument that "minorities need to be making" feels like a cop out to me. I don't disagree with it and I would love to see this happen. It would make more sense if the industry actually attempted making more than just of few female and poc leads in videos games but they all ended up being bad and offensive. But even then didn't rockstar consult with former gang members during the development of GTA 5 to get a more authentic take on their characters? I mean if the publishers still want white males as their leads then I'm not convinced a few PoCs would change that. It's not about who's making the games it's about who they're trying to market to.
Why would she stfu when this whole video is stupid?
ambientmystic
Member
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
I think what he's trying to say is she should call upon women to make games, rather than criticizing men for making what's most intuitive to them. Although I'd say we can do both -- we should ask men to step outside their comfort zone and try making female characters, while also encouraging women to make games themselves.
Nealand Liquor
Member
It seems complaining about the majority is only something that is done in the West. You never here people question why there are there so many Indians in Bollywood movies.
Before anyone gets the wrong idea I want to state that I am all for fairness and inclusion. I would just like to know why the majority race gets a free pass at representation the world over except in NA?
Where is the same level of protest?
Before anyone gets the wrong idea I want to state that I am all for fairness and inclusion. I would just like to know why the majority race gets a free pass at representation the world over except in NA?
Where is the same level of protest?
Red Blaster
Member
white people crime is honorable and classy
This is a bit off topic but you're still wrong.
The majority of people arent murders, cultists, thieves, and torturers. The majority created law. Law which jails criminals... the minority.
Boxcar Overkill
Banned
http://www.pewinternet.org/2008/09/16/part-1-2-basic-gaming-hardware-and-games-played/
FYI From a pew study.
FalconLorenzo
Member
Probably because there are still so many white men in America.
kunonabi
Member
Part of the problem is the industry's shift towards western devs, AAA or bust thinking, and aiming everything at a mass-market western audience. They was a much larger representation of female protagonists back in the 16-32 bit era with all the mid level titles from Japanese devs. This isn't to say they are free of any criticism of course. I mean look at Jill from RE. She used to be a great character before they turned her into Wesker's little blonde sex bot in RE5. All the RE girls these days are used for titillation far more now than they ever were. Cindy's bunny outfit and Jill's RE3 outfit are super tame by their current standards.
The industry is so focused on being it's own version of Hollywood that we end up with a lot the same problems.
The industry is so focused on being it's own version of Hollywood that we end up with a lot the same problems.
DangerousDave
Member
I think that the real answer is because of the userbase.
We all agree that most of the userbase of videogames (or at least the videogames that are presented on E3) are males. Probably white males.
So companies, if they have to choose a single main character (and the development, scope or budget of the game don't allow to have several or customable ones), they choose the main character that fits better with their userbase.
The result of a lot of companies making the same choice (choosing the main character that fits better with their userbase) create the discrimination. Each single company don't do anything racist or sexist. But, when you get the full scope of the total of game characters of the total of videogames of E3, white male characters are overrepresented.
We all agree that most of the userbase of videogames (or at least the videogames that are presented on E3) are males. Probably white males.
So companies, if they have to choose a single main character (and the development, scope or budget of the game don't allow to have several or customable ones), they choose the main character that fits better with their userbase.
The result of a lot of companies making the same choice (choosing the main character that fits better with their userbase) create the discrimination. Each single company don't do anything racist or sexist. But, when you get the full scope of the total of game characters of the total of videogames of E3, white male characters are overrepresented.
His entire argument is generalizing women and men's interests by supporting gender roles. That's not even the worst parts of his argument.
Women have struggled in so many male dominated industries and he chalks it up as basically our fault when there's many factors in play.
I also think it's silly to assume men can't relate to women. Maybe on specific issues, sure but interests? He just comes off as completely ignorant.
Nope that is the perfect way.
Men are capable of representing women in video games and vice versa. It is all a matter of research, common sense and principles. A man can write a brilliant story about a woman's struggle and vice versa. A man can write a brilliant article about lack of women's representation in video games and vice versa. And there is nothing creative about using your common sense and representing the opposite sex with respect. That is basic. Unless you are saying that men always think with their dick and never use their brain. Now if they want to have a women-oriented game that is a different story but even then a straight man or a gay man is as capable unless you think a straight man is not capable of doing that. You don't have to be a woman to understand a woman and you don't have to be a man to understand a man. Women are not from Venus and men are not from Mars.
So surely I do not agree with your bullshit which is cleverly constructed to a receive a "Yes" answer and it is bullshit because it is using false logic to come to a logical conclusion.
His reasoning is that men are not capable of representing women because they are not women so you cannot blame them for showing constantly boobs and ass because apparently that is the only thing men can identify about women or represent them with - boobs and ass.
The American population doesn't equal the general population of the Planet Earth, as far as I know.
Raise your hand if you've said something similar like this!
Detention for all of you white boys. Race and Ethnic Studies and Mass Media History for the rest of you.
BloodMoney
Banned
Name some Ethiopian game development firms.
What is it with you guys that you want critics, and especially female critics, to shut up? It is, well... unsettling.
Probably less than non-white and/or male consumers.
theshape31
Member
Because those are the people responsible for making/marketing games, and that's where the problem lies.
One of the most successful franchises at the moment is also one of the only ones that's even bothered to try, so...
Rising_Hei
Member
The population that are into games are mostly white, followed by asian i'd say
I actually don't disagree with what you're saying (other than perhaps how you interpreted what I'm saying). I agree that each gender is capable of identifying and representing the other, and I never said people shouldn't ask for men to try and do just that for women. I'm just saying that the industry would improve in this respect if more women were making games, as well. People can identify with others from other walks of life, but sometimes the results would be more expedient if people from those walks of life tried their hand at it directly. I really do believe that if more women made games, they'd see better representation.
Which can lead to the question, is the state of the industry turning women away so there's not enough of them who want to work in the related fields?
This brings up another problem:
That's true, change isn't going to be immediate.
But then you have to wonder when will change take place?
For example, there was some criticism over the decision for GTA V to have 3 male characters instead of including a female.
Alright, maybe next time then years from now we'll have a female character in a main GTA and if that doesn't happen, it's another years
worth to wait.
Game development takes time and it adds up to be a frustrating experience for those who wish for proper representation in gaming.
As of now it seems that the men who are used to catering to the male population will have to step up and create those games centered around women and minority because otherwise:
We can just be in a continous loop where marketing decides to make the majority of games tailored to white men which in turn is going to keep leaving out women and minorities.
It's entirely possible for a white man to make a game about a black man woman etc. all it takes is research and effort. It's also possible to market to them to and we see it happen all the time.
Unwelcome? Alienating? Uncomfortable? Unfamiliar?
Or were you going for the irony angle by calling me hostile? It's kind of hard to tell on the internet.
You mean this hasn't changed yet?
With all the ways to get games made today, why aren't more women making games and selling them to other women?
I assume that's what we're talking about.
I'm encouraged by the fact that all these bloggers are going to put down their keyboards and start making some games. Can't wait to see what comes out.
With all the ways to get games made today, why aren't more women making games and selling them to other women?
I assume that's what we're talking about.
I'm encouraged by the fact that all these bloggers are going to put down their keyboards and start making some games. Can't wait to see what comes out.
Yeah, I thought about that, and it's an interesting point. Are so few women trying to make games because male-dominated content is turning them away?
Whatever the case, I think both genders need to contribute: Male content creators need to try and make characters that appeal to both genders, and women content creators need to be a larger presence in the industry.
Hostile implies there some sort of an active campaign against minority people/characters.
Nice going generalizing anyone who doesn't agree with OP as white.
With a quick search on Google I couldn't find any. That doesn't mean that there are great dev teams all around the world who are possibly capable of making a game with a diverse cast of characters though.
You do realize how hard for women it is to come into this industry. Look at Gaf, where the blatant obvious observation that most games feature white males as lead causes so much distress.
- Status