This is supported in your article which I've been repeatedly quoting from. Yes mandatory integration does contribute to white flight.
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Why did race relations deteriorate so much in the last decade? And how do we fix it?
- Thread starter pramod
- Start date
This is supported in your article which I've been repeatedly quoting from. Yes mandatory integration does contribute to white flight.
Pramod is playing coy, and its very transparent. Its weak to play cat and mouse with him. He's baiting this entire thread with ideas he knows will be inflammatory to a living human brain. He doesn't actually care about real discussion, just wants to rile us up.
So when Trump says only 'rapists' are coming from Mexico, its okay? So when Trump attacks the Muslim vet's family, its okay? So when Trump asks for a Muslim ban its okay? So when Trump criticizes Black Lives Matter, its okay? So when Trump single handedly starts the Birther movement for the US's first black President, its okay? So on and so forth. There are so many of these situations from the conservative side (and not just Trump) that its mind boggling.
You are purposely shying away from what is right in front of you to just rile us up. Obama was absolutely the most composed anyone could have ever been and made powerfully true comments about the situation we find ourselves in here in America.
Even if that is the case, the reason to continue in earnest and good faith isn't for his benefit, but for anyone else who may read this thread. The arguments being launched are the same talking points launched elsewhere. There are those who may agree with them and some that may have no opinion. Countering the idea rather than the individual removes the strength of the idea.
This entire thread is playing out on a global stage around the world. Allowing the ideas to be presented and then countered is what a forum should be.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
This is a long thread but I wanted to quote this from the front page because I really think the poster is on to something.
The 1% is trying to maintain their control in a digital age and they are using the social divide to keep the spotlight off of them. All while their wealth continues to grow.
prag16
Banned
This is every bit as disingenuous and slanted as what you are accusing pramod of doing.
Show reciepts. While we can make the argument some of the situations were amped up by the media you really can’t call a dude who gets into a twitter war with the pope a uniter of people, lol. While we can agree to disagree on if Obama was devisive there’s no question Trump dropped the ball and kicked it over the fence in this regard in his year in office.
BANGS
Banned
We can agree to disagree on that entire statement. Trump said alot of stupid shit, but not really divisive shit. It was more the media and how people interpreted what he said that was divisive...
Unfortunately, due to how forums work, the OPs words are weighed more heavily. And top of it all, these discussions are often divisive in themselves. Nevertheless, I hope for the best.
prag16
Banned
Show receipts? How about Trump's actual words. Show me where he said "all Mexicans are rapists". Show me any actual "Muslim ban" (and not restrictions that certain people with an agenda erroneously refer to as a Muslim ban).
None of this means I like Trump. I very much don't like Trump. But I call it like I see it, and seeing stuff like this leads me to believe the person saying it is arguing in bad faith.
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The blame Obama or Trump rhetoric isn't really going to advance the conversation if our only remedy is pointing at a specific figure head as the source for all our woes. Introspection on what we can do as individuals is probably the best course of action to take first and foremost. We've have some excellent thought in this thread and I really enjoyed some posters looking at the how the public defender process works as well as how the education system has and currently works. These are meaningful discussion to be had by the American public. The break down of what the state of our union is, what it has been, and what we can do now to progress.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
All people need to do is realize that race in America has been a cancer for 400 years now. This is the fault of Obama or Trump.
I mean:
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They are not sending you. They are not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people”.
Note he didnt say explicitly say all mexicans, but apparently only ‘some’ mexican immigrants are good people with the bulk being rapists, criminals and people with ‘problems’, lol. So your right, not all Mexicans, just most Mexican immigrants, lol.
At the end of the day, you just can’t shoot off at the fucking hip when it comes to these issues, “crazy pc snowflake world” or not, you’re the goddamn free leader of the world, not a attention whore trying to score retweets for hot takes. Its why I dont get why the big thing is how unfair media is towards Trump; when has the media ever been fair to the president? Fucking Reagan got shot! Clinton got impeached, etc. His reaction to the negativity to be as negative hurts, and that negative cloud has alot to do where we are today race wise
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BANGS
Banned
He was a presidential candidate at the time when he said that... and not even the primary leader. He absolutely WAS an attention whore...
We All know presidential candidates lie
lol. Lying during a presidential is a time honored tradition but intentionally offending large swaths of the population with said attention whoring has consequences. Can’t be like, “Hey, that was the old me, this is the new me now I got the job!” lol.
lol. Lying during a presidential is a time honored tradition but intentionally offending large swaths of the population with said attention whoring has consequences. Can’t be like, “Hey, that was the old me, this is the new me now I got the job!” lol.
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Super Mario
Banned
First off, committing a crime =/= incarceration.
These arguments usually go the way of "black people are put in prison for drug use, even though white people use it more". The whole drug possession myth was even dispelled by politifact. People are not being sent to jail for drug possession. We like to casually roll up possession AND trafficking into "innocent, harmless, marijuana smokers" http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-sanders-says-people-are-getting-prison-sent/
Next, let's look at the biggest pools of crime.
All Other Offenses - 2,602,939 - 66.9% white, 30.4% black
Property Crime - 1,254,696 - 68.2% white 29% black
Drug Abuse - 1,204,162 - 67.7% white, 30.4% black
Larceny - 990,936 - 68.3% white, 28.7% black
Other Assaults - 881,085 - 65.1% white, 32.2% black
The points to make from this are:
1.) As we have already established, blacks are extremely disproportionate in their rate of crime. More than double their representation in most categories. Double.
2.) These large buckets are not all serious offenses that will lead to incarceration.
Now let's look at more serious, mostly violent offenses, that are more likely going to lead to incarceration. % committed by black people below.
Murder - 52.2%
Robbery - 56.4%
Aggravated Assault - 33.9%
Violent Crime - 38.7%
Weapons - 39.8%
Prostitution - 41.4%
Looking at the crime rates of the second group, does a 38% incarceration rate for black people REALLY seem that off? What is the argument? That whites are getting out of serious offenses more than blacks? They they are throwing the book at blacks for no reason?
Still this data doesn't tell the whole story. There are all kinds of exceptions that work both ways. There are black people treated unfairly. There are white people treated unfairly. There are things that can't be measured and won't be measured. I still refuse to accept that this is a tale of racism.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Is there a stat that shows how many people are jailed for drug possession alone, BUT NOT in federal prisons? City and State jails are a thing too.
Excellent, I've been waiting for this.
By the numbers, with the FBI listing it from greatest offense to worse.
Murder: 4,192=White 4,935=Black
RAPE (which you conveniently left off) 12,571 = White, 5,412 = Black
Robbery 33,095 = White 41,562 = Black
Aggravated assault 191,205 = White, 101, 432 = Black
BURGULARY (Which yet again you conveniently left off) White = 112,651, Black = 47,991
LARCENY-THEFT (Which once again you conveniently left off) White = 575,105, black = 231,199
MOTOR Vehicle Theft (Which you..., nevermind we all know this is on purpose) White = 44,970 Black = 20,955
Arson (man I don't know why we cant get full information?) White= 5,593 Black = 1,813
VIOLENT CRIME White 241,063 Black 153,341
Further I posted that only 58% of black inmates are serving for violent crime. Basically again it is statistically and mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for black to people to make up a nearly 100,000 difference in violent crime to garner a the population statistics.
Again, for the crimes deemed most serious by the FBI, and legal system, meaning carrying harsher sentences. White crime exceed black crime by approximately 1 million counts. Further. White crime totals exceed black crime totals by about 3.5 million counts. While the black murder rate exceeds the white murder rate by about 700 hundred counts. Mathematically and statistically it is impossible for the black incarceration rate to be so high when so few in actual numbers are the counts which black americans lead on. Again white violent rates exceed black rates by a substantial amount and is in no way proportionate to the number actual number and incarceration rate being served.
FURTHER we use the ASIAN and NATIVE AMERICAN populations as a statistical control. Which should white Americans to be the ONLY ONLY ONLY population group where their crime rate is LOWER than their incarceration rate.
No one is debating the rate per population, yet you seem to be the only one afraid to confront the facts of what I am explaining to you.
700 hundred murders are not enough to skew the nearly 100,000 more violent crimes by white people into a substantially lower incarceration rate for white people, and a higher one for all other races.
You do not have to accept it as racism, but you cannot make the argument that it is expected or proportional.
The first and only step I had was coming to explain that any "explaining" away of this has already been debunked and the myth that it is proportional is wholy untrue. If you at least agree to that point this is the best that can be hoped for. No where in my words did I state it was racism, but I will not allow the facts to be painted as if they logically make sense and swept under a rug. The fact is there is an unnatural and disproportionate incarceration rate between races and people are free to draw their own conclusion on what that may be and why and we will continue to discuss those reasons.
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Unless you're trying to tell me that black people are more predisposed to commit crimes, while ignoring the economic and social factors that are caused by racism, then yes, it is absolutely true that whites get out of serious offenses more often than blacks.
Nightstick10
Neo Member
TheMikado, Super Mario, you guys need to find charts that DON'T combine whites and Hispanics or the comparison is tainted beyond all credibility.
Those are the ones release by the FBI and bureau of justice statistics. This is how they are reported by the FBI and because they are the source of this information there is little we can do about it. Ethnicity and race are a separate category in their report so you can see it in the statistics if you desire.
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Nightstick10
Neo Member
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html
Pulled this source because the wikipedia article used as a source.
Whites are 39% of incarcerated, Hispanics are 19%, and Blacks are 40%.
These are not pretty numbers.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That shows that white people relative to their percentage are extremely more well behaved than black and latinos in America.
if you believe racism doesn't have an effect of these numbers
prag16
Banned
I've only loosely been following this particular thread of discussion, but when you control for economic means, what does that do to the data? I'd bet the ranch that that has far more affect on incarceration rate (vs. infraction rate) than race.
EDIT: Of course some would then argue that racism is the cause of the gaps in economic means, and then that's a whole separate discussion.
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Youreright and I did quick math to make to assumption that I would subtract hispanics from the FBI white crime statistics. This basically has hispanics as commiting 18% of the total crime in the US. Which falls in line with the 19% incarceration rate. This also falls in line with the 1.2/1.5 crime/incarceration of asian americans and the 2/2.5 rate of native americans.
Only White and black people seem to differ greatly in the incarceration versus crime rate. White Americans(appear to commit 50%) of crime but incarceration is 39%. Black americans commit 25% of crime but incarcerations at 38-40%.
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https://csgjusticecenter.org/correc...incomes-of-individuals-in-the-justice-system/
"
The median annual income for individuals involved with the justice system before their incarceration was $19,185—which is 41 percent less than their counterparts, on average—according to a report from the Prison Policy Initiative.
Using data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the report finds that the majority of incarcerated people had low income and little access to quality education or jobs before their incarceration, compared to their counterparts in similar age groups, who were not incarcerated.
This income gap exists among whites, blacks, and Hispanics, though the gap is most dramatic among white men and the smallest among Hispanic women."
Just checked the original article and man....
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html
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Nightstick10
Neo Member
That is a good question and I hope someone finds a source.
prag16
Banned
Yeah... we need crosstabs or some such shit to be sure, but I'd wager that the income disparity factor probably goes a very long way in erasing the previously discussed race discrepancies.https://csgjusticecenter.org/correc...incomes-of-individuals-in-the-justice-system/
"
The median annual income for individuals involved with the justice system before their incarceration was $19,185—which is 41 percent less than their counterparts, on average—according to a report from the Prison Policy Initiative.
Using data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the report finds that the majority of incarcerated people had low income and little access to quality education or jobs before their incarceration, compared to their counterparts in similar age groups, who were not incarcerated.
This income gap exists among whites, blacks, and Hispanics, though the gap is most dramatic among white men and the smallest among Hispanic women."
Just checked the original article and man....
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html
I mean, combine the chart in your post with the previous charts on incarceration vs. infraction rates, with a third chart, and this assumption starts to look very plausible:
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us-by-race-2013-9
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Actually the article I linked breaks it down by both race and income. It isn't an either or situation.
Here is the cross section the did in the article.
Incarcerated people
Black men 17625
black women 12735
Hispanic men 19740
Hispanic women 11820
White men 21975
White woman 15480
Findings
The findings are as predictable as they are disturbing. The American prison system is bursting at the seams with people who have been shut out of the economy and who had neither a quality education nor access to good jobs. We found that, in 2014 dollars, incarcerated people had a median annual income of $19,185 prior to their incarceration, which is 41% less than non-incarcerated people of similar ages.
The gap in income is not solely the product of the well-documented disproportionate incarceration of Blacks and Hispanics, who generally earn less than Whites. We found that incarcerated people in all gender, race, and ethnicity groups earned substantially less prior to their incarceration than their non-incarcerated counterparts of similar ages:
While the gap in income is most dramatic for White men, White men have the highest incomes. By contrast, the income gap is smallest for Hispanic women, but Hispanic women have the lowest incomes.
Not only are the median incomes of incarcerated people prior to incarceration lower than non-incarcerated people, but incarcerated people are dramatically concentrated at the lowest ends of the national income distribution:
Incarcerated people
Black men 17625
black women 12735
Hispanic men 19740
Hispanic women 11820
White men 21975
White woman 15480
Findings
The findings are as predictable as they are disturbing. The American prison system is bursting at the seams with people who have been shut out of the economy and who had neither a quality education nor access to good jobs. We found that, in 2014 dollars, incarcerated people had a median annual income of $19,185 prior to their incarceration, which is 41% less than non-incarcerated people of similar ages.
The gap in income is not solely the product of the well-documented disproportionate incarceration of Blacks and Hispanics, who generally earn less than Whites. We found that incarcerated people in all gender, race, and ethnicity groups earned substantially less prior to their incarceration than their non-incarcerated counterparts of similar ages:
While the gap in income is most dramatic for White men, White men have the highest incomes. By contrast, the income gap is smallest for Hispanic women, but Hispanic women have the lowest incomes.
Not only are the median incomes of incarcerated people prior to incarceration lower than non-incarcerated people, but incarcerated people are dramatically concentrated at the lowest ends of the national income distribution:
LordPezix
Member
I super agree with this, I mean hell even Wallace from Blade Runner stated "Every civilization was built on the back of a disposable workforce". Anyone is a fool to think that you are free from influence of the oligarchs that rule our society. Times have changed, things look different, but the model remains the same. They can't make us slaves but they can offer us shit wage jobs, impossible housing prices, student debt, and social discontent.
I smell the end of Rome in the air.
BANGS
Banned
You do realize there are far more factors in life than just skin color and racism because of said skin color, right? What racism caused single motherhood in the black community to skyrocket? What racism caused more black babies in new york city to be aborted than born? What racism caused hatred of police despite increased policing dropping crime rates significantly and benefiting everyone?
There is more to life than just racism my friend...
Super Mario
Banned
So we move onto the next argument that "well, it's poor people that commit more crimes." Breaking news at 11, right? As shown, black people tend to be poorer.
This is where the discussion gets even more subjective. "Well they need access to better schooling and jobs". You know, things that have never been tried before. What stopped cities like Ferguson to apply these fixes? These poor, black, cities overwhelmingly have voted Democrat for decades. Yet these Democratic speaking points have presented no solutions. So what is the fix?
BANGS
Banned
Don't you know? Just throw rich people's money at the problem, that fixes everything...
prag16
Banned
It's the government's answer to everything. Throw more money at it. How many areas have seen spending skyrocket without improving outcomes? Education, war on drugs, any number of things.
Vicetrailia
Member
There are more deliberate solutions, they just don't get implemented Federally or via the State. We don't have the will to do it. So instead you get incremental progress.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Mod edit: Ridiculous accusatory assumption being made about member with no basis in fact. This thread is not for you. I feel like I'm repeating myself all over the forum guys. Clean it up please and debate properly. Thanks.
You are an interesting type of person. Did you realize that black women having kids out of wedlock has fallen most among them than any of race in America within the last 20 years? I can tell you honestly believe black people are just not as smart, capable, or loving as white people.
You are an interesting type of person. Did you realize that black women having kids out of wedlock has fallen most among them than any of race in America within the last 20 years? I can tell you honestly believe black people are just not as smart, capable, or loving as white people.
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BANGS
Banned
That's disgusting. Clean yourself up or I won't be humoring you much longer...
I did not, got a source? Also is it possible that number is skewed because those babies are being aborted instead of born?
http://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...a-meyer-says-more-black-babies-are-aborted-n/
Why are you presuming the abortions were out of wedlock?
Single black mothers have been in decline since 2011. Further black women experience higher incidence of rape and sexual abuse. Continuing on we see that BOTH crime and poverty are linked to racial issues.
Lack of access to services, historically higher broken families. These issues did not just occur. Lack of access to sex education material in schools would be an issue. Further where would the money come from for these programs.
Here is more information on the complexity of the issue.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/nyregion/04abortion.html
Further here is the chart of nonmarried mothers by race. The black community has ALWAYS had higher incidence which extend past slavery time. During the post slavery period unwed mothers was at 25%. This was 5 times higher than the national average of 5%. Today the raw number has increased while the separation between both the national average and white women is less than double. THIS SHOWS A SUBSTANTIAL CLOSE IN THE RELATIVE GAP AND RATE OF BLACK UNWED MOTHERS. A circumstance which has existed since slavery.
Further, we have already established earlier in this thread that police trust has IMPROVED statistically, and we can always go back to the historical reasons for police mistrust.
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We've already talked about tax bases and you can clearly see that the only solution would be significant long-term investment in a variety of ways. You cannot throw pennies at systematic poverty and expect it to go away.
The solution was never to through money at it. It takes real human capital to change the system of poverty and class-ism in this country.
Every point we have shows a direct and inverse correlation between wealth and other metrics. So what is the solution to end poverty?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You're saying this as if there aren't race relation issues in America. As if it's all a lie created by rich people to distract us non-rich from the real truth. Like wat?!
To be fair things such as class, wealth, race are all intermingled in our history and the truth is these interplay is so tangled it is hard to separate.
Facts:
The use of inexpensive labor with minimum rights created a sub-class based on non-homogenous skin tones.
This sub-class, once freed was segregated from much of "mainstream" society in both education, housing, and opportunity.
The net result is a class disparity separated by race. where wealth, opportunity, and rights have been historically denied.
Class warfare then ensues from the middle class as they are convinced that that lower classes are responsible for the countries woes.
Poorer and less educated classes always having higher incidences of crime and lack of education around the world.
However the debate on race is thoroughly engrossing that discussion on why it is that these things are the way they are is often not discussed.
This thread is evidence. We have so many claims as to "what" the facts are that the discussion of "why" things are the way they are are lost.
Race, in America has actually become or at least was an outward indication of class and to an extent still is. Just in the way that the house you live in, the car you drive, or the clothes you wear are class and status sympbols.
In race and ethnically homogeneous nations lineage and royalty took the place of birth class-ism. It is a system that has always existed in humanity and in America, race is one of the indications of class status and contributes to class warfare.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
I somewhat agree. It’s separate but equal mentality.. but the button pushers keep tell
Ing people the “ others “ have it better. And it all driven by propaganda for political and financial reasons.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
While true, you should never allow someone to misdirect the conversation to "class" when we are speaking about race. We no that racism exist and is used even when all the subjects are rich. We wouldn't need the "Rooney Rule" in the NFL if racism didn't exist. And there's no reason to turn racism, into fake "classism" issues just because someone is scared to use the term race, racism, or racist.
This is a historical truth. The slave trade in reality really primarily benefited the wealthy. It was sold as an opportunity for the average and poor white man to live like a king with his own personal servant. In truth the average white man pre-civil war was fortunate enough to eek out a living, while the poorest often worked similar land to slaves. While freedoms themselves are invaluable poverty is still a prison. In truth many of the poor states wanted nothing to do with the civil war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_in_the_American_Civil_War
In fact many of the poorer whites called it a "rich man's war"
The reality of all this is that class-ism is the driving force behind racism. This is not to say that pure racism does not exist, but it is much rarer, its why we have the idea of "one of the good ones" where they have "exceeded" the expectations of their class and birth. This is not a new concept. Lyndon B Johnson says it best. “I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it,” he said. “If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.”
While there is no question that racism exists, we also have the "one of the good ones" complex. It is why someone like Ben Carson can gave acceptance even among those who harbor racist sentiments. He is not like the "others". Much of racism at its core is about perception of status and capabilities. I don't have any great or profound answers, the reality is black americans have been treated as a sub-class and it has become a self-fullfilling prophecy because of the denial of acceptance into general society. We are only 50 year out from true legal integration but are already closing the education and wealth gap. And these trends will continue. Ignoring what it means to be black historically in regards to class and access to services within society does us no favors either. Fighting class-ism is also a fight against racism, because there will always be someone at the "bottom" and may be the next divide will not be on race, but education, or some other measure but seeing class-ism for what it is helps us remove the justifications for underclasses in the future.
We have seen in this very thread the use of statistics to attempt to justify class-ism when in true that mindset is the very cause of the divides in our country. So no I do not think racism should be ignored, but I believe fighting class-ism is the best and most direct means of benefiting all Americans.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But if your main goal is to benefit all Americans, then how do you close the wealth, income, and education gap?
prag16
Banned
What? "Fake classism"? I can't help but somewhat read this as, "fuck nuance and intellectually honest discussion, keep the eye on the ball". Looks a lot like race baiting to me, especially after some your other posts in this topic one of which received a mod warning/edit.
I don't think anybody here (or hardly anybody) is trying to claim racism doesn't exist. But what is being discussed here is a lot more complicated than that... EDIT as the post below describes.. good post.
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That's where we've come to in this conversation. Going through the thread we can see where we have brought the majority of the thread into recognizing the wealth, income, and education gaps are issues which not only dis-proportionally affect segments of society but also so are a strong indicator of outcomes for a community. Even within this thread we've seen suggestions of paying public defenders more and investing in education. Granted we know it will take more than that, but even seeing the few people recognizing the historical issues and the complexity of resolving the issues helps. Watching people look at this as a whole and see that "bootstraps" isn't an effective tool to enact real change is a step in the right direction. The more we talk about this, the more people see that the justice system is harder with less wealth, and even in the case of asian americans who have more average wealth it is not exceptionally kind.
We are having conversations about how to fix systemic issues which people who may have not seen them as issues before. Even if they do not subscribe to explicit racism the view of how policies can indirectly harm vulnerable communities is important and helps as more people believe in this.
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