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[TheMikado]

What? "Fake classism"? I can't help but somewhat read this as, "fuck nuance and intellectually honest discussion, keep the eye on the ball". Looks a lot like race baiting to me, especially after some your other posts in this topic one of which received a mod warning/edit.

I don't think anybody here (or hardly anybody) is trying to claim racism doesn't exist. But what is being discussed here is a lot more complicated than that.

You have to understand that racism is a very complex beast with perspectives running all over the place. The feelings of racism being key are fair and valid ones in terms of perception but the solutions are much more nuances. class, wealth, race have strong ties to one another. These are painful and complicated concepts. There are no easy answers. Sometimes we have to stop attacking one another and pointing fingers and say, I don't agree with your perspective but I agree
this, this and this are a problem. How can we fix it together?

There are no problems we cannot solve together, and very few that we can solve by ourselves. Lyndon B. Johnson
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/lyndon_b_johnson_386094

 

[tkscz]

This is just a theory.
I think our current polarized climate in regards to everything, be it race, gender, immigration, etc...
Is artificially created to divide, distract and pit us against each other.
While we fight constantly about the things we can't change like race and sex, there's a massive rise in income inequality, creating the one true divide, one that can be changed, the class divide.

I think there is a vested corporate interest, as well as one for many billionaires to keep things this way. These are the people and corporations that fund most political campaigns, regardless of party, and as such when class is off limits as part of the political discourse, social issues are put on a megaphone.

TL;DR:
Social divide is beneficial to maintain a class divide.

I agree with this

 

[Super Mario]

That's where we've come to in this conversation. Going through the thread we can see where we have brought the majority of the thread into recognizing the wealth, income, and education gaps are issues which not only dis-proportionally affect segments of society but also so are a strong indicator of outcomes for a community. Even within this thread we've seen suggestions of paying public defenders more and investing in education. Granted we know it will take more than that, but even seeing the few people recognizing the historical issues and the complexity of resolving the issues helps. Watching people look at this as a whole and see that "bootstraps" isn't an effective tool to enact real change is a step in the right direction. The more we talk about this, the more people see that the justice system is harder with less wealth, and even in the case of asian americans who have more average wealth it is not exceptionally kind.

We are having conversations about how to fix systemic issues which people who may have not seen them as issues before. Even if they do not subscribe to explicit racism the view of how policies can indirectly harm vulnerable communities is important and helps as more people believe in this.

It may sound like a constructive conversation, and believe me, I fell for it for years when I was a die-hard liberal. When we sit here with no solution and relations going backwards, can we honestly accept that we have properly defined the problem? We've also vilified "bootstraps" to the point of it being a laughable concept anymore. Imagine, expecting someone to work! No one has that expectation of you, right?

The non-marital birth rate map tells a story. It indicates an overall decline in morals and values for all Americans. We love to throw around how much "investing in education" is a fix, even when we have been proven wrong countless times. If investing in education is a proven fix, then can we safely say that in the 1940s, we had better education, since the birthrate was lower? Now we know everything is much more complicated than that. However, it's a very telling map.

Then we can talk about our "broken system" as it is popular to point a finger. However, around the world, the results are similar. Even social utopia Canada has a higher percentage of black incarceration. The vast majority of black countries are still poor and stricken with crime and poverty. Let's not forget that slavery happened because Africans were selling other Africans. How do racist police factor into these things?

 

[mckmas8808]

What? "Fake classism"? I can't help but somewhat read this as, "fuck nuance and intellectually honest discussion, keep the eye on the ball". Looks a lot like race baiting to me, especially after some your other posts in this topic one of which received a mod warning/edit.

I don't think anybody here (or hardly anybody) is trying to claim racism doesn't exist. But what is being discussed here is a lot more complicated than that... EDIT as the post below describes.. good post.

I know the complications full well. You may not understand how much it pains me to hear people say "the real issue is about class", while trying to shoe race slightly under the rug. It's like a dagger to the heart. In most cases if we are talking about race being an issue lets talk about that. Because race and class are both issues that need to be addressed, but to have concurrent conversations about them always seems to undersell one of the two issues.

It's more like 2 separate issues that overlap some of the time. Some people like to make race and class issues one in the same. And they just aren't!

That's where we've come to in this conversation. Going through the thread we can see where we have brought the majority of the thread into recognizing the wealth, income, and education gaps are issues which not only dis-proportionally affect segments of society but also so are a strong indicator of outcomes for a community. Even within this thread we've seen suggestions of paying public defenders more and investing in education. Granted we know it will take more than that, but even seeing the few people recognizing the historical issues and the complexity of resolving the issues helps. Watching people look at this as a whole and see that "bootstraps" isn't an effective tool to enact real change is a step in the right direction. The more we talk about this, the more people see that the justice system is harder with less wealth, and even in the case of asian americans who have more average wealth it is not exceptionally kind.

We are having conversations about how to fix systemic issues which people who may have not seen them as issues before. Even if they do not subscribe to explicit racism the view of how policies can indirectly harm vulnerable communities is important and helps as more people believe in this.

Love this post and you're right. But the bolded is what scares me. It sounds like you are saying that if we need to strip the case of the problem out (race), then we can get more people on board to fix some problems we have. And it simply doesn't work that way.

It may sound like a constructive conversation, and believe me, I fell for it for years when I was a die-hard liberal. When we sit here with no solution and relations going backwards, can we honestly accept that we have properly defined the problem? We've also vilified "bootstraps" to the point of it being a laughable concept anymore. Imagine, expecting someone to work! No one has that expectation of you, right?

The non-marital birth rate map tells a story. It indicates an overall decline in morals and values for all Americans. We love to throw around how much "investing in education" is a fix, even when we have been proven wrong countless times. If investing in education is a proven fix, then can we safely say that in the 1940s, we had better education, since the birthrate was lower? Now we know everything is much more complicated than that. However, it's a very telling map.

Then we can talk about our "broken system" as it is popular to point a finger. However, around the world, the results are similar. Even social utopia Canada has a higher percentage of black incarceration. The vast majority of black countries are still poor and stricken with crime and poverty. Let's not forget that slavery happened because Africans were selling other Africans. How do racist police factor into these things?

So what are you really saying or asking here? It's almost as if these countries that you speak of never weren't under control of European nations and had to fight for their freedoms. And you write what's in the bolded as if racism only existed in America. You write that as if people don't know that Africans sold people into slavery. You write this as if there aren't any poor white or Asians countries that are/were stricken with crime and poverty. You write this as if saying "racist police" is a nice and kind thing to say. It feels as if you don't believe our racist history has lead to any of what's going on today.

 

[prag16]

I know the complications full well. You may not understand how much it pains me to hear people say "the real issue is about class", while trying to shoe race slightly under the rug. It's like a dagger to the heart. In most cases if we are talking about race being an issue lets talk about that. Because race and class are both issues that need to be addressed, but to have concurrent conversations about them always seems to undersell one of the two issues.

It's more like 2 separate issues that overlap some of the time. Some people like to make race and class issues one in the same. And they just aren't!



Love this post and you're right. But the bolded is what scares me. It sounds like you are saying that if we need to strip the case of the problem out (race), then we can get more people on board to fix some problems we have. And it simply doesn't work that way.

If you agree it's complicated, why do you keep locking in on race so hard at the expense of everything else? Fix the wealth gap issue (somehow... I don't claim to have all the solutions) and most of the race issue will very likely fade away. You'll still have racist assholes, but most of the demographic gaps discussed in this topic would definitely be closing, a lot, getting us closer to that ultimate "equality of opportunity" goal.

The other way around, "fixing" racism (whatever that would even entail) wouldn't fix the wealth gap. By pounding on the racist racist racist angle in every situation while intentionally mostly ignoring every other factor, you alienate people. This dynamic played a part in what got Trump elected. Talking about our racist history all day long isn't going to fix today's problems.

 

[TheMikado]

It may sound like a constructive conversation, and believe me, I fell for it for years when I was a die-hard liberal. When we sit here with no solution and relations going backwards, can we honestly accept that we have properly defined the problem? We've also vilified "bootstraps" to the point of it being a laughable concept anymore. Imagine, expecting someone to work! No one has that expectation of you, right?

The non-marital birth rate map tells a story. It indicates an overall decline in morals and values for all Americans. We love to throw around how much "investing in education" is a fix, even when we have been proven wrong countless times. If investing in education is a proven fix, then can we safely say that in the 1940s, we had better education, since the birthrate was lower? Now we know everything is much more complicated than that. However, it's a very telling map.

Then we can talk about our "broken system" as it is popular to point a finger. However, around the world, the results are similar. Even social utopia Canada has a higher percentage of black incarceration. The vast majority of black countries are still poor and stricken with crime and poverty. Let's not forget that slavery happened because Africans were selling other Africans. How do racist police factor into these things?

I think I am failing to see how or why these things are relevant to the issues we are discussing. We aren't talking about fixing poverty in black countries, we aren't talking about Canada. We aren't talking about Canada, unless you are implying the issue is black people themselves by virtue of simply being black I fail to see how those things are relevant to the present conversation. Please enlighten me on their relevance. There are numerous counter arguments to your claim, but I will instead simply let you connect them in a meaningful way to the conversation before engaging you.

 

[TheMikado]

I know the complications full well. You may not understand how much it pains me to hear people say "the real issue is about class", while trying to shoe race slightly under the rug. It's like a dagger to the heart. In most cases if we are talking about race being an issue lets talk about that. Because race and class are both issues that need to be addressed, but to have concurrent conversations about them always seems to undersell one of the two issues.

It's more like 2 separate issues that overlap some of the time. Some people like to make race and class issues one in the same. And they just aren't!



Love this post and you're right. But the bolded is what scares me. It sounds like you are saying that if we need to strip the case of the problem out (race), then we can get more people on board to fix some problems we have. And it simply doesn't work that way.

The unfortunate truth is that is honestly does work this way. Are you familiar with the "original Rosa Parks"? It shows that Civil Rights activists made concerted and specific efforts to appeal in ways to garner support for their cause. I am not claiming that this is right, but is the unfortunate reality.

 

[mckmas8808]

If you agree it's complicated, why do you keep locking in on race so hard at the expense of everything else? Fix the wealth gap issue (somehow... I don't claim to have all the solutions) and most of the race issue will very likely fade away. You'll still have racist assholes, but most of the demographic gaps discussed in this topic would definitely be closing, a lot, getting us closer to that ultimate "equality of opportunity" goal.

The other way around, "fixing" racism (whatever that would even entail) wouldn't fix the wealth gap. By pounding on the racist racist racist angle in every situation while intentionally mostly ignoring every other factor, you alienate people. This dynamic played a part in what got Trump elected. Talking about our racist history all day long isn't going to fix today's problems.

Because it's important to the topic at hand. The thread is literally called, "Why did race relations deteriorate so much in the last decade? And how do we fix it?" Trying to make the thread into a 50% race, 50% class isn't going to fix race relations. Most black people would laugh in your face if one of the main answers to fixing race relations was a solution to fix our class issues.

Prag16 there's a real and deep reason HUGE amount of all black lawyers, doctors, and judges graduate from HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities). Many black people speak of being treated diffferently in majority white colleges when they want to pursue their post grad degree. In HBCUs it's normal and expected that a smart black college young person would be looking to get their Masters or a PHD. Whereas at majority white colleges there's been many times where the administration would look at that same black person and expect that a 4 year degree is all they need or wanted and honestly can't see them wanting more.

That issue that I just typed up and explained is not a class issue at all! It's purely race and it happens within very kind hearted/well meaning white liberals too. Some times they expect less from black people compared to other successful black people at HBCUs.

You guys said you wanted nuance so there you go.

 

[TheMikado]

If you agree it's complicated, why do you keep locking in on race so hard at the expense of everything else? Fix the wealth gap issue (somehow... I don't claim to have all the solutions) and most of the race issue will very likely fade away. You'll still have racist assholes, but most of the demographic gaps discussed in this topic would definitely be closing, a lot, getting us closer to that ultimate "equality of opportunity" goal.

The other way around, "fixing" racism (whatever that would even entail) wouldn't fix the wealth gap. By pounding on the racist racist racist angle in every situation while intentionally mostly ignoring every other factor, you alienate people. This dynamic played a part in what got Trump elected. Talking about our racist history all day long isn't going to fix today's problems.

It is not a one or the other solution. I agree that a preoccupation with race will not solve the issue, however a lack of understanding of the contextual history which brought us to this point is just as dangerous.
Again even in this thread we have the discussion of white flight as if it is a phenomenon only occurring in the 70s or 90s.

The actual history is far more complex and I will give an example based on the statistical fact of for every single black family 2 white families more out.

Let say a black family moves in, while 50% of the neighbors may be o.k. with this. Two neighbors decide they would rather move to an all white neighborhood.
The effect is that two houses now go up for sale in the same neighborhood. In terms of economics it does two things. Reduces the relative cost of the homes through supply and reduces the tax base.
Now of these two homes, the reduced price allows two families, one black, one white to move in.
The neighbors, seeing that two black families have moved in decide to that the changing neighborhood demographics are unacceptable or fear the lowering of their property value.
4 homes in the neighborhood go up for sale, further reducing both the tax base and the property values.
The lower prices allow minorities who have less wealth do to racial issues an opportunity to move into the neighborhood and the trend continues.

The issue is both of economics and race and they need to be discussed in tandem and not fixated on one or the other element. There are genuine issues surrounding wealth, education, class, and race and no silver bullet to defuse it.

 

[Future]

Race has always been an issue in America and always will be. Too many different cultures mashed together. Too many terrible things done to people of different races in the past. People still alive that remember times where segregation was legal and institutional racism was open and in your face. Some races still segregated in certain states / areas with little exposure to different cultures, and rely only on hearsay to form opinions. Many people wanting to blame their problems on a race or culture they know nothing about.

It’s just openly worse now with Trump because Trump continuously gives non pc opinions on matters that involve race. And he probably wouldn’t have been electable with this rhetoric if we didn’t have a black president beforehand that created tension simply due to the optics of having a black president.

Not to mention news pundits becoming even louder and more on the nose with pandering to whatever side they are appealing to, inciting division for ratings and dollars not unlike sports rivalries. Division and tension is good for the news cycle.

 

[TheMikado]

Because it's important to the topic at hand. The thread is literally called, "Why did race relations deteriorate so much in the last decade? And how do we fix it?" Trying to make the thread into a 50% race, 50% class isn't going to fix race relations. Most black people would laugh in your face if one of the main answers to fixing race relations was a solution to fix our class issues.

Prag16 there's a real and deep reason HUGE amount of all black lawyers, doctors, and judges graduate from HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities). Many black people speak of being treated diffferently in majority white colleges when they want to pursue their post grad degree. In HBCUs it's normal and expected that a smart black college young person would be looking to get their Masters or a PHD. Whereas at majority white colleges there's been many times where the administration would look at that same black person and expect that a 4 year degree is all they need or wanted and honestly can't see them wanting more.

That issue that I just typed up and explained is not a class issue at all! It's purely race and it happens within very kind hearted/well meaning white liberals too. Some times they expect less from black people compared to other successful black people at HBCUs.

You guys said you wanted nuance so there you go.

While I agree there is nuance this can also be attributed to class as well.

The pursuit of graduate degrees corresponds closely with wealth which as we know corresponds with race.

I don't have the data right now but can get it later. The wealth gap in black communities requires more financial aid use. The more financial aid used, the less likely you are to pursue higher degrees.

This disproportionate affects black people due to the history of racism.
This is a problem. The wealth gap affects everything from education to incarceration and almost any measurable way of life. That is not to say racism is not a contributing factor, but the racist origins are having long term effects on the success of communities and that has to be addressed.

 

[TheMikado]

Race has always been an issue in America and always will be. Too many different cultures mashed together. Too many terrible things done to people of different races in the past. People still alive that remember times where segregation was legal and institutional racism was open and in your face. Some races still segregated in certain states / areas with little exposure to different cultures, and rely only on hearsay to form opinions. Many people wanting to blame their problems on a race or culture they know nothing about.

It’s just openly worse now with Trump because Trump continuously gives non pc opinions on matters that involve race. And he probably wouldn’t have been electable with this rhetoric if we didn’t have a black president beforehand that created tension simply due to the optics of having a black president.

Not to mention news pundits becoming even louder and more on the nose with pandering to whatever side they are appealing to, inciting division for ratings and dollars not unlike sports rivalries. Division and tension is good for the news cycle.

These are genuine issues. We can't say that racism doesn't exist or that it's effects are over. As you stated there are people alive today who we alive when racial discrimination was acceptable and a campaign issue to run on. Attempting to remove the historical context of what has happened benefits no one.

As far as it always being an issue. I do not think that will be the case. The gaps in wealth and race and closed substantially with in the past 50-60 years. It is really incredible.
As I stated earlier the gap between the black unwed mothers use to be by a factor of 4-5 against the average. That factor has been reduced to less than double. Soon the relative gap will close even further. Progress is being made but it isn't an overnight process and wasn't solved on July 2nd, 1964. That was just the beginning of the healing process, not the ending.

 

[mckmas8808]

While I agree there is nuance this can also be attributed to class as well.

The pursuit of graduate degrees corresponds closely with wealth which as we know corresponds with race.

I don't have the data right now but can get it later. The wealth gap in black communities requires more financial aid use. The more financial aid used, the less likely you are to pursue higher degrees.

This disproportionate affects black people due to the history of racism.
This is a problem. The wealth gap affects everything from education to incarceration and almost any measurable way of life. That is not to say racism is not a contributing factor, but the racist origins are having long term effects on the success of communities and that has to be addressed.

What I'm trying to explain to you is that issue with finanical aid happens extremely less at a HBCU. Administrations there help you with that aid if you need it. The professors at HBCUs push students to get those post grad degrees more. The expectations are higher for black students at HBCUs. That is not a class issue.

Many admins at majority white colleges simply believe the black student doesn't want a post grad degree, so they are less likely to offer a plan to help that student go that route. So many black educated people have told this story many times. This right here isn't about class.

 

[TheMikado]

What I'm trying to explain to you is that issue with finanical aid happens extremely less at a HBCU. Administrations there help you with that aid if you need it. The professors at HBCUs push students to get those post grad degrees more. The expectations are higher for black students at HBCUs. That is not a class issue.

Many admins at majority white colleges simply believe the black student doesn't want a post grad degree, so they are less likely to offer a plan to help that student go that route. So many black educated people have told this story many times. This right here isn't about class.

While I 100% agree that HBCUs are more encouraging and understanding of the issues of the black community, Having gone to an HBCU myself in Alabama and a state school in MD. I cannot claim that state inability to address issues as they relate to the black community is explicit racism or even racism at all. My experience has been that university of Maryland was generally more of an institution while I had excellent relationships with my HBCU professors. One of my fondest members was accompanying my English professor (who I think secretly had a crush on me ) to a collegiate literary society dinner. It was a wonderful experience and one I certainly would not get at UM. I don't think it is fair to hold other institutions to the same standards as HBCUs when it comes to serving the black communities needs. I do think there needs to be recognition in its value and that I wish some of the understanding and services could be replicated at other higher education institutions but I definitely understand the limitations on this.

At UM I would chat with my professors briefly but it felt like a much more strict atmosphere. A few took a distinct liking to me and provided encouragement but never to the level I experienced at an HBCU. I am not sure if admins believe that or they simple do not see many interested in pursuit of advanced degrees. How are you measuring both interest in and admin beliefs? It could be argued the that enough information isn't provided about advanced degrees in general and this would disproportionately affect communities with less experience and wealth in obtaining education. Anedotal evidence, even while attending my HBCU I was under the impression that graduate school would cost as much as attending another 4 years of college and already taking out considerable loans I had no interest in pursuing anything beyond a 4 year degree at the time.

 

[Vicetrailia]

While I 100% agree that HBCUs are more encouraging and understanding of the issues of the black community, Having gone to an HBCU myself in Alabama and a state school in MD. I cannot claim that state inability to address issues as they relate to the black community is explicit racism or even racism at all. My experience has been that university of Maryland was generally more of an institution while I had excellent relationships with my HBCU professors. One of my fondest members was accompanying my English professor (who I think secretly had a crush on me ) to a collegiate literary society dinner. It was a wonderful experience and one I certainly would not get at UM. I don't think it is fair to hold other institutions to the same standards as HBCUs when it comes to serving the black communities needs. I do think there needs to be recognition in its value and that I wish some of the understanding and services could be replicated at other higher education institutions but I definitely understand the limitations on this.

At UM I would chat with my professors briefly but it felt like a much more strict atmosphere. A few took a distinct liking to me and provided encouragement but never to the level I experienced at an HBCU. I am not sure if admins believe that or they simple do not see many interested in pursuit of advanced degrees. How are you measuring both interest in and admin beliefs? It could be argued the that enough information isn't provided about advanced degrees in general and this would disproportionately affect communities with less experience and wealth in obtaining education. Anedotal evidence, even while attending my HBCU I was under the impression that graduate school would cost as much as attending another 4 years of college and already taking out considerable loans I had no interest in pursuing anything beyond a 4 year degree at the time.

I attend an hbcu now and basically feel the same way about the atmosphere. Certainly helps makes up for the lack of resources compared to larger state schools, whom have vast resources. But as someone who went to NC State for a year and then got cheap and pursued NCAT university, there are vast differences.

 

[TheMikado]

I attend an hbcu now and basically feel the same way about the atmosphere. Certainly helps makes up for the lack of resources compared to larger state schools, whom have vast resources. But as someone who went to NC State for a year and then got cheap and pursued NCAT university, there are vast differences.

Absolutely! HBCUs have been invaluable in being bastions of educational encouragement in black community. I will admit I often critique them but they absolutely help serve the needs of the community in unique ways. The understanding of that experience is invaluable and the recognition of where some of these students are coming from really pulls at my heart. For all the crap I personally give HBCUs, their work and their commitment to it is invaluable. My personal hope is that in another 50-100 year they will no longer become necessary and begin transitioning to 4 year colleges specifically for poorer Americans.

 

[mckmas8808]

Absolutely! HBCUs have been invaluable in being bastions of educational encouragement in black community. I will admit I often critique them but they absolutely help serve the needs of the community in unique ways. The understanding of that experience is invaluable and the recognition of where some of these students are coming from really pulls at my heart. For all the crap I personally give HBCUs, their work and their commitment to it is invaluable. My personal hope is that in another 50-100 year they will no longer become necessary and begin transitioning to 4 year colleges specifically for poorer Americans.

That's an interesting hope. But the only way that becomes true is if the attitudes of white people change. Now I'll say this.....HBCUs are becoming more and more white as more white people are finding out that they can get a great education there for a lower cost while also getting federal or state money since they are a minority at those schools.

 

[TheMikado]

That's an interesting hope. But the only way that becomes true is if the attitudes of white people change. Now I'll say this.....HBCUs are becoming more and more white as more white people are finding out that they can get a great education there for a lower cost while also getting federal or state money since they are a minority at those schools.

The statistics you are talking about are exactly why I think this shift will occur. As the wealth and education gap continues to shrink lower classes will become more integrated regardless of race. By every quantifiable measure the gap between races is shrinking and my hope is that HBCUs will continue to do what they have always done and that is to give opportunity of education for those with limited options.

 

[Super Mario]

I think I am failing to see how or why these things are relevant to the issues we are discussing. We aren't talking about fixing poverty in black countries, we aren't talking about Canada. We aren't talking about Canada, unless you are implying the issue is black people themselves by virtue of simply being black I fail to see how those things are relevant to the present conversation. Please enlighten me on their relevance. There are numerous counter arguments to your claim, but I will instead simply let you connect them in a meaningful way to the conversation before engaging you.

Obviously, this is just a bait attempt to call me racist. It is absolutely relevant. Imagine a country where black people had the lower crime rates, higher wealth, education, etc, yet America was the opposite, do you believe this would change the discussion at all? The poverty and crime is a problem across the world. Is the world being racist? Or just us? Or no one?

These are genuine issues. We can't say that racism doesn't exist or that it's effects are over. As you stated there are people alive today who we alive when racial discrimination was acceptable and a campaign issue to run on. Attempting to remove the historical context of what has happened benefits no one.

As far as it always being an issue. I do not think that will be the case. The gaps in wealth and race and closed substantially with in the past 50-60 years. It is really incredible.
As I stated earlier the gap between the black unwed mothers use to be by a factor of 4-5 against the average. That factor has been reduced to less than double. Soon the relative gap will close even further. Progress is being made but it isn't an overnight process and wasn't solved on July 2nd, 1964. That was just the beginning of the healing process, not the ending.

What you said in the bold, sounds great. However, at 70% unwed childbirth, it is mathematically impossible to keep up a 4-5x rate. Not sure I would celebrate that one in the slightest.

 

[Vicetrailia]

That's an interesting hope. But the only way that becomes true is if the attitudes of white people change. Now I'll say this.....HBCUs are becoming more and more white as more white people are finding out that they can get a great education there for a lower cost while also getting federal or state money since they are a minority at those schools.

Yes more ethnic minorities, as well as white people are making their way into HBCUs. But I will add that most HBCUs are driving very hard to grow. Growth is the name of the game. They want to be bigger and better like many other state schools, and hopefully maintain some of that feel.

 

[TheMikado]

Obviously, this is just a bait attempt to call me racist. It is absolutely relevant. Imagine a country where black people had the lower crime rates, higher wealth, education, etc, yet America was the opposite, do you believe this would change the discussion at all? The poverty and crime is a problem across the world. Is the world being racist? Or just us? Or no one?
.

I’m incredibly confused by your comment, what does rest of the world have to do with the context of racism in America? Let’s start there and move on. There are specific contributing factors to racism in the US and it’s history which have already been well covered and is the topic of the thread. I’m trying to find the link here as it’s not making sense.

 

[Kevitivity]

As other have said, identity politics is not only hurting the democratic party, it's hurting all of us. I see this as the main issue with race relations.

 

[NickFire]

As other have said, identity politics is not only hurting the democratic party, it's hurting all of us. I see this as the main issue with race relations.

It’s shocking when you start to notice how much money is being made by the famous people who stoke the flames that rise from these issues.

 

[Sàmban]

You do realize there are far more factors in life than just skin color and racism because of said skin color, right? What racism caused single motherhood in the black community to skyrocket? What racism caused more black babies in new york city to be aborted than born? What racism caused hatred of police despite increased policing dropping crime rates significantly and benefiting everyone?

There is more to life than just racism my friend...

If you truly care about these issues, do some research on the topic. You'll invariably come up with the following conclusions:
legacy of racism + continued institutional racism > poverty > increased likelihood of crime > black males more likely to be incarcerated > increased likelihood of being a single motherhood (which is on the decline if you bothered to look it up rather than regurgitate rightwing garbage)
legacy of racism + continued institutional racism > poverty > less education/social support (see above) > increased likelihood of abortions
legacy of racism + continued institutional racism > police hatred/mistrust due to their historic, continued, and documented participation in the preceding

 

[BANGS]

continued institutional racism

I feel like this is the disconnect I'm having...

Every time I see these debates it's always "institutional racism is what's cause these stats". Then when the question is asked as to where the proof of institutional racism, the reply is always "well look at the stats"...

 

[Sàmban]

It may sound like a constructive conversation, and believe me, I fell for it for years when I was a die-hard liberal. When we sit here with no solution and relations going backwards, can we honestly accept that we have properly defined the problem? We've also vilified "bootstraps" to the point of it being a laughable concept anymore. Imagine, expecting someone to work! No one has that expectation of you, right?

The non-marital birth rate map tells a story. It indicates an overall decline in morals and values for all Americans. We love to throw around how much "investing in education" is a fix, even when we have been proven wrong countless times. If investing in education is a proven fix, then can we safely say that in the 1940s, we had better education, since the birthrate was lower? Now we know everything is much more complicated than that. However, it's a very telling map.

Then we can talk about our "broken system" as it is popular to point a finger. However, around the world, the results are similar. Even social utopia Canada has a higher percentage of black incarceration. The vast majority of black countries are still poor and stricken with crime and poverty. Let's not forget that slavery happened because Africans were selling other Africans. How do racist police factor into these things?

Seriously, so what are your solutions Super Mario ? I mean, all I see you do in this thread is lowkey bitch about "libruls" or post about "dem blacks be dumb yo," "bootstraps" or "unwed mothers" but you don't seem to be proposing anything worth discussing. Bootstrapping is not effective because of stagnating wages and the growing income gap. Americans are some of the hardest working people in the world and this "bootstraps" shit is not working even for white people.

I feel like this is the disconnect I'm having...

Every time I see these debates it's always "institutional racism is what's cause these stats". Then when the question is asked as to where the proof of institutional racism, the reply is always "well look at the stats"...

Before I answer this, what do YOU think is causing these stats? I'm asking because I want to get your perspective on this.

Obviously, this is just a bait attempt to call me racist. It is absolutely relevant. Imagine a country where black people had the lower crime rates, higher wealth, education, etc, yet America was the opposite, do you believe this would change the discussion at all? The poverty and crime is a problem across the world. Is the world being racist? Or just us? Or no one?



What you said in the bold, sounds great. However, at 70% unwed childbirth, it is mathematically impossible to keep up a 4-5x rate. Not sure I would celebrate that one in the slightest.

Oh, gtfo with that rubbish argument. No, it is NOT an attempt to call you a racist. Stop being a coward and be open to the fact that maybe you have some opinions that might need some revision. This is new GAF; you want to say something controversial, say it and back it up. You will not learn anything by being a bitch. You want an open discussion, so discuss. I am on the same page with TheMikado. You have stated multiple times in this thread that black people have higher crime rates, lower education, etc. Nobody called you racist and everyone actually agrees that what you are saying is true. People have proposed various explanations for these statistics. Where are yours? Please provide something meaningful to the discussion instead of saying stupid shit like "this is just a bait attempt to call me racist." Why do you think black people are fairing so much worse at all these statistics?

Note, again, the fact that you are not contributing anything worthwhile in this thread. A user posts data showing a decline in black single motherhood and literally all you have to say is "well that's great but it was unsustainable due to math anyway so nothing worth celebrating." Instead of maybe thinking "hmm, why was I so quick to regurgitate bullshit about black single mothers without looking it up; maybe I shouldn't do that next time"

 

[TheMikado]

I feel like this is the disconnect I'm having...

Every time I see these debates it's always "institutional racism is what's cause these stats". Then when the question is asked as to where the proof of institutional racism, the reply is always "well look at the stats"...

While racism in the sense of legal discrimination is illegal, there are factors such as education and wealth which disproportionately affect the poor and because of only actually obtaining equal right under the law in be past 60 years black people in American has not had the same opportunity as other immigrants who have voluntarily migrated to America. In fact, voluntary African immigrants are some of the most successful and well educated voluntary immigrants to the US.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/african-immigrants-united-states-0

About two of every five African foreign-born adults had a bachelor's or higher degree.
In 2007, 42.5 percent of the 1.1 million African-born adults age 25 and older had a bachelor's degree or higher compared to 27.0 percent among the 31.6 million foreign-born adults. About one-quarter (25.2 percent) of African-born adults age 25 and older had some college education (less than a bachelor's degree) or an associate's degree compared to 17.1 percent of all foreign-born adults.

On the other end of the education continuum, about 11.3 percent of African immigrants had no high school diploma or the equivalent general education diploma (GED), compared to 31.9 percent among all foreign-born adults. About 21.1 percent of African-born adults had a high school diploma or GED compared to 24.0 percent among all foreign-born adults.

Further African immigrants, those whose ancestors have not suffered directly under slavery experience increased wealth and Nigerians, Kenyans, and Ethiopians surpass the average white American wealth while rivaling the “model minority” Asian Americans.

Essentially the long history of slavery and discrimination where families are intentionally destroyed, heritage and culture erased, and education denied takes more than 60 years of recovery to equalize. Because he legal system and virtually all institutions in the US function more favorably the wealthier you are, groups which have been intentionally denied wealth will be further disadvantaged by these institutions. Because the denial of the basic rights of America were denied based on the category of race which severely impaired wealth, and our institutions favor those with wealth, a race which lacks wealth will perceive institutional discrimination which coincides with their race due to the history of discrimination.

Basically you can’t strip everything from a group of people work them like animals, throw them out into the streets to fair for themselves while actively denying them any ability to advance and expect that they are going to be ok. Signing a piece of paper doesn’t undo centuries of misabuse.

As I’ve said before, we are less than 60 year out from achieving true equality under the law and every single gap is closing and rapidly. It seems you fail to understand the incredibly achievement that is.

 

[Sàmban]

While racism in the sense of legal discrimination is illegal, there are factors such as education and wealth which disproportionately affect the poor and because of only actually obtaining equal right under the law in be past 60 years black people in American has not had the same opportunity as other immigrants who have voluntarily migrated to America. In fact, voluntary African immigrants are some of the most successful and well educated voluntary immigrants to the US.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/african-immigrants-united-states-0

About two of every five African foreign-born adults had a bachelor's or higher degree.
In 2007, 42.5 percent of the 1.1 million African-born adults age 25 and older had a bachelor's degree or higher compared to 27.0 percent among the 31.6 million foreign-born adults. About one-quarter (25.2 percent) of African-born adults age 25 and older had some college education (less than a bachelor's degree) or an associate's degree compared to 17.1 percent of all foreign-born adults.

On the other end of the education continuum, about 11.3 percent of African immigrants had no high school diploma or the equivalent general education diploma (GED), compared to 31.9 percent among all foreign-born adults. About 21.1 percent of African-born adults had a high school diploma or GED compared to 24.0 percent among all foreign-born adults.

Further African immigrants, those whose ancestors have not suffered directly under slavery experience increased wealth and Nigerians, Kenyans, and Ethiopians surpass the average white American wealth while rivaling the “model minority” Asian Americans.

Essentially the long history of slavery and discrimination where families are intentionally destroyed, heritage and culture erased, and education denied takes more than 60 years of recovery to equalize. Because he legal system and virtually all institutions in the US function more favorably the wealthier you are, groups which have been intentionally denied wealth will be further disadvantaged by these institutions. Because the denial of the basic rights of America were denied based on the category of race which severely impaired wealth, and our institutions favor those with wealth, a race which lacks wealth will perceive institutional discrimination which coincides with their race due to the history of discrimination.

Basically you can’t strip everything from a group of people work them like animals, throw them out into the streets to fair for themselves while actively denying them any ability to advance and expect that they are going to be ok. Signing a piece of paper doesn’t undo centuries of misabuse.

As I’ve said before, we are less than 60 year out from achieving true equality under the law and every single gap is closing and rapidly. It seems you fail to understand the incredibly achievement that is.

This is a good point that I can speak to a little bit as my parents are African immigrants, and it is from this perspective that I can see how much class/poverty plays into perpetuating racism.
Most people in our community are relatively high achieving (70K+ incomes) despite being black. Many own multiple businesses (mostly importing/exporting). The support system is really strong. We have these things called "Njangis" where wealthy members of the community essentially lend you large sums of money and you pay it back interest-free. I've seen these literally change lives. We have a lot of the same stereotypes/value-systems as Asian communities (my parents literally told me they'll disown me if I did not pursue a STEM major for example). We have lots of nurses, surgeons, lawyers, engineers and pharmacists. Many of them work an insane amount and they are supported by the members of the community that don't (literally anyone will cook or babysit your children for relatively cheap). It all works really well actually and it's nice to belong to something like that. It feels like a second "reality" at times.

As a result of this (I think), "racism" towards African Americans is a BIG problem within the African community. African Americans are often looked down on as lazy moochers. Some of the shit I've heard friends/family say is really disgusting at times. Just more anecdotal evidence that this is much more of a social class issue than it is purely a skin-color issue.

 

[Super Mario]

Seriously, so what are your solutions Super Mario ? I mean, all I see you do in this thread is lowkey bitch about "libruls" or post about "dem blacks be dumb yo," "bootstraps" or "unwed mothers" but you don't seem to be proposing anything worth discussing. Bootstrapping is not effective because of stagnating wages and the growing income gap. Americans are some of the hardest working people in the world and this "bootstraps" shit is not working even for white people.

The good ol' doom and gloom economy excuse. Wages are increasing. Unemployment is lower, and lower than it has ever been for black people. Remember when we said black people needed access to more jobs for their problems to be fixed? Also, Asians make more than everyone else. Am I able to claim oppression from them since we look for equality of outcome? I can tell you why Asians outperform everyone. They have a strong culture.

I can tell you what is NOT a solution: democratic policies. Welfare, identity politics, crying racism. These things are not working and will never work. Democrats have controlled cities, states, house, sentate, presidency, yet what has gotten accomplished? Our problems are mostly cultural. Instead of trying to help out black culture, we tell them that the police are out there killing them all because of people like MICHAEL BROWN. If you think stories like that are helping the black community, there isn't much else to discuss here.

Oh, gtfo with that rubbish argument. No, it is NOT an attempt to call you a racist. Stop being a coward and be open to the fact that maybe you have some opinions that might need some revision. This is new GAF; you want to say something controversial, say it and back it up. You will not learn anything by being a bitch. You want an open discussion, so discuss. I am on the same page with TheMikado. You have stated multiple times in this thread that black people have higher crime rates, lower education, etc. Nobody called you racist and everyone actually agrees that what you are saying is true. People have proposed various explanations for these statistics. Where are yours? Please provide something meaningful to the discussion instead of saying stupid shit like "this is just a bait attempt to call me racist." Why do you think black people are fairing so much worse at all these statistics?

Note, again, the fact that you are not contributing anything worthwhile in this thread. A user posts data showing a decline in black single motherhood and literally all you have to say is "well that's great but it was unsustainable due to math anyway so nothing worth celebrating." Instead of maybe thinking "hmm, why was I so quick to regurgitate bullshit about black single mothers without looking it up; maybe I shouldn't do that next time"

I am not looking to post graphs and statistics about every statement. If others want to do that, that is fine. We use data to make points that are irrelevant to our problems. The post about the unwed childbirth was a perfect example of how flawed our use of statistics is. Let's break down the claim:

the gap between the black unwed mothers use to be by a factor of 4-5 against the average. That factor has been reduced to less than double. Soon the relative gap will close even further. Progress is being made but it isn't an overnight process and wasn't solved on July 2nd, 1964. That was just the beginning of the healing process, not the ending.

First part: "4-5 times the average". The average was about 5%, black average was about 25%.

Next: "Reduced to less than double." Average is about 40%, black average is 70%.

Result: "Progress is being made"

Progress apparently comes in the form of being a smaller multiple of the national average. Never mind that it is now 30% higher than the national average now vs 20% before, let alone at a whopping 70% total. What if next the national average goes to 75%, and the Black average goes to 100%? Is that further progress???? None of this is progress, it's a ballooning problem.

 

[Super Mario]

This is a good point that I can speak to a little bit as my parents are African immigrants, and it is from this perspective that I can see how much class/poverty plays into perpetuating racism.
Most people in our community are relatively high achieving (70K+ incomes) despite being black. Many own multiple businesses (mostly importing/exporting). The support system is really strong. We have these things called "Njangis" where wealthy members of the community essentially lend you large sums of money and you pay it back interest-free. I've seen these literally change lives. We have a lot of the same stereotypes/value-systems as Asian communities (my parents literally told me they'll disown me if I did not pursue a STEM major for example). We have lots of nurses, surgeons, lawyers, engineers and pharmacists. Many of them work an insane amount and they are supported by the members of the community that don't (literally anyone will cook or babysit your children for relatively cheap). It all works really well actually and it's nice to belong to something like that. It feels like a second "reality" at times.

As a result of this (I think), "racism" towards African Americans is a BIG problem within the African community. African Americans are often looked down on as lazy moochers. Some of the shit I've heard friends/family say is really disgusting at times. Just more anecdotal evidence that this is much more of a social class issue than it is purely a skin-color issue.

For as much as I've said in this thread, I really hate having this argument. I really do. It bothers me to post data saying "blacks have underperformed in x category". Because no statistic speaks for everyone, period. I know there's people like you here who read it and get defensive, I would too.

But I think what frustrates me the most is the identity politics. I have black friends, coworkers, neighbors (which btw identity politics has made this a counter-productive thing to say anymore) and I don't see them any differently. There are black people that far exceed anything I will even come close to accomplishing. Do blacks have it harder in some instances? Yup. However, identity politics is only dividing us more, and THAT pisses me off to no extent.

 

[TheMikado]

The good ol' doom and gloom economy excuse. Wages are increasing. Unemployment is lower, and lower than it has ever been for black people. Remember when we said black people needed access to more jobs for their problems to be fixed? Also, Asians make more than everyone else. Am I able to claim oppression from them since we look for equality of outcome? I can tell you why Asians outperform everyone. They have a strong culture.

I can tell you what is NOT a solution: democratic policies. Welfare, identity politics, crying racism. These things are not working and will never work. Democrats have controlled cities, states, house, sentate, presidency, yet what has gotten accomplished? Our problems are mostly cultural. Instead of trying to help out black culture, we tell them that the police are out there killing them all because of people like MICHAEL BROWN. If you think stories like that are helping the black community, there isn't much else to discuss here.



I am not looking to post graphs and statistics about every statement. If others want to do that, that is fine. We use data to make points that are irrelevant to our problems. The post about the unwed childbirth was a perfect example of how flawed our use of statistics is. Let's break down the claim:

the gap between the black unwed mothers use to be by a factor of 4-5 against the average. That factor has been reduced to less than double. Soon the relative gap will close even further. Progress is being made but it isn't an overnight process and wasn't solved on July 2nd, 1964. That was just the beginning of the healing process, not the ending.

First part: "4-5 times the average". The average was about 5%, black average was about 25%.

Next: "Reduced to less than double." Average is about 40%, black average is 70%.

Result: "Progress is being made"

Progress apparently comes in the form of being a smaller multiple of the national average. Never mind that it is now 30% higher than the national average now vs 20% before, let alone at a whopping 70% total. What if next the national average goes to 75%, and the Black average goes to 100%? Is that further progress???? None of this is progress, it's a ballooning problem.

Let me first let you know that 25% is actually 500% higher than 5%. Not 20%. That’s not how math works....

That said, yes that is progress going from 500% higher to 175% higher means the rate has closed by more han half. Understand math and logic can be difficult subjects and I am prepared to debate you on every measure you throw. I see you still have not tied the relevance of your other comments to this thread. I and waiting to debate you on each point but I fear you may be afraid to face me.

I also ask that no one else engage SuperMario and that you allow me the opportunity to combat his claims in this public forum. I ask that you bring every fact and statistic you have to the table. I’ve already refuted the Asian minority claim but if you would like prop that one up as well I am happy to show you significant evidence.

 

[Nightstick10]

While I disagree with your assertion that research would lead BANGs to invariably reach the same conclusions as you,

The support system is really strong. We have these things called "Njangis" where wealthy members of the community essentially lend you large sums of money and you pay it back interest-free. I've seen these literally change lives. We have a lot of the same stereotypes/value-systems as Asian communities (my parents literally told me they'll disown me if I did not pursue a STEM major for example)

^this is very similar to what Asian communities had when they first arrived. The community donated a payment every month to a pool, and one family gets the entire pool at a time to open up a business or whatever. Then the next time, another family gets the pool, etc. So everyone can afford the monthly payment, everyone at some point gets a huge amount of money at once, everyone can use that to open up a business or pay off debt or whatever.

 

[mr2xxx]

I feel like this is the disconnect I'm having...

Every time I see these debates it's always "institutional racism is what's cause these stats". Then when the question is asked as to where the proof of institutional racism, the reply is always "well look at the stats"...

Have you not seen the stats that a stereotypical white name is Over 30% more likely to be called in for a interview over a stereotypical black name. That is the world we currently live in. Same resume just a different name.

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

 

[Nightstick10]

Have you not seen the stats that a stereotypical white name is Over 30% more likely to be called in for a interview over a stereotypical black name. That is the world we currently live in. Same resume just a different name.

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

This isn't indicative of anything. If this was the same for black people with white sounding names, of which there are plenty, then maybe that would indicate something.

A country-club type law firm or something will not hire someone named Lakisha but they would hire the exact same person if her name was Christine.

Stereotypical black names signal a Black Panther type militancy and hostility to whitey; if you were a suburban life-insurance company balding fifty year old white man looking to hire a black person to branch out into the demographic, would you hire Lakisha Jones or Christine Jones?

 

[mr2xxx]

This isn't indicative of anything. If this was the same for black people with white sounding names, of which there are plenty, then maybe that would indicate something.

A country-club type law firm or something will not hire someone named Lakisha but they would hire the exact same person if her name was Christine.

Stereotypical black names signal a Black Panther type militancy and hostility to whitey; if you were a suburban life-insurance company balding fifty year old white man looking to hire a black person to branch out into the demographic, would you hire Lakisha Jones or Christine Jones?

This wasn’t at some country club, just typical jobs.

In total, the authors responded to more than 1,300 employment ads in the sales, administrative support, clerical, and customer services job categories, sending out nearly 5,000 resumes. The ads covered a large spectrum of job quality, from cashier work at retail establishments and clerical work in a mailroom to office and sales management positions.

If people are already dismissing DeShawn from a cashier job because they think he is some type of militant Black Panther there is a problem. We are talking about callbacks for an interview, just a chance at a job. DeShawn should have the same opportunity to interview and prove himself.

 

[TheMikado]

This isn't indicative of anything. If this was the same for black people with white sounding names, of which there are plenty, then maybe that would indicate something.

A country-club type law firm or something will not hire someone named Lakisha but they would hire the exact same person if her name was Christine.

Stereotypical black names signal a Black Panther type militancy and hostility to whitey; if you were a suburban life-insurance company balding fifty year old white man looking to hire a black person to branch out into the demographic, would you hire Lakisha Jones or Christine Jones?

While this report is Canada I try to other minorities as a control.

“The study found that job applicants in Canada with Asian names — names of Indian, Pakistani or Chinese origin — were 28 percent less likely to get called for an interview compared to applicants with Anglo names, even when all the qualifications were the same. Researchers used data from a previous study conducted in 2011 where they sent out 12,910 fictitious resumes in response to 3,225 job postings. The previous study, also in Canada, similarly found that applicants with Anglo first names and Asian last names didn't fare much better than applicants with Asian first and last names.

"Some people still believe that minorities have an advantage," said one of the study authors, Jeffrey Reitz, a sociologist at the University of Toronto. "These studies are important to challenge that and show that not only is this kind of discrimination happening, but it's quite systemic."
“
The study found that job applicants in Canada with Asian names — names of Indian, Pakistani or Chinese origin — were 28 percent less likely to get called for an interview compared to applicants with Anglo names, even when all the qualifications were the same. Researchers used data from a previous study conducted in 2011 where they sent out 12,910 fictitious resumes in response to 3,225 job postings. The previous study, also in Canada, similarly found that applicants with Anglo first names and Asian last names didn't fare much better than applicants with Asian first and last names.

"Some people still believe that minorities have an advantage," said one of the study authors, Jeffrey Reitz, a sociologist at the University of Toronto. "These studies are important to challenge that and show that not only is this kind of discrimination happening, but it's quite systemic."
The study found that job applicants in Canada with Asian names — names of Indian, Pakistani or Chinese origin — were 28 percent less likely to get called for an interview compared to applicants with Anglo names, even when all the qualifications were the same. Researchers used data from a previous study conducted in 2011 where they sent out 12,910 fictitious resumes in response to 3,225 job postings. The previous study, also in Canada, similarly found that applicants with Anglo first names and Asian last names didn't fare much better than applicants with Asian first and last names.

"Some people still believe that minorities have an advantage," said one of the study authors, Jeffrey Reitz, a sociologist at the University of Toronto. "These studies are important to challenge that and show that not only is this kind of discrimination happening, but it's quite systemic."

https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...last-names-lead-to-fewer-job-interviews-still

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

The good ol' doom and gloom economy excuse. Wages are increasing. Unemployment is lower, and lower than it has ever been for black people. Remember when we said black people needed access to more jobs for their problems to be fixed? Also, Asians make more than everyone else. Am I able to claim oppression from them since we look for equality of outcome? I can tell you why Asians outperform everyone. They have a strong culture.

I can tell you what is NOT a solution: democratic policies. Welfare, identity politics, crying racism. These things are not working and will never work. Democrats have controlled cities, states, house, sentate, presidency, yet what has gotten accomplished? Our problems are mostly cultural. Instead of trying to help out black culture, we tell them that the police are out there killing them all because of people like MICHAEL BROWN. If you think stories like that are helping the black community, there isn't much else to discuss here.

I've heard this argument before. The next step is race realism, the assertion that black peoples problems stem from the fact that they have the lowest IQs. Why, just look at the state of majority black countries all over the world!!!11! Couldn't be that the issues stemming from institutional racism that "ended" in the 60s are being felt today. Impossible! IT'S THEIR CULTURE!!!!1!!

 

[Naudi]

Too many facts have been stated so I'll assume this thread will die now lol.

 

[Sàmban]

The good ol' doom and gloom economy excuse. Wages are increasing. Unemployment is lower, and lower than it has ever been for black people. Remember when we said black people needed access to more jobs for their problems to be fixed? Also, Asians make more than everyone else. Am I able to claim oppression from them since we look for equality of outcome? I can tell you why Asians outperform everyone. They have a strong culture.

I can tell you what is NOT a solution: democratic policies. Welfare, identity politics, crying racism. These things are not working and will never work. Democrats have controlled cities, states, house, sentate, presidency, yet what has gotten accomplished? Our problems are mostly cultural. Instead of trying to help out black culture, we tell them that the police are out there killing them all because of people like MICHAEL BROWN. If you think stories like that are helping the black community, there isn't much else to discuss here.



I am not looking to post graphs and statistics about every statement. If others want to do that, that is fine. We use data to make points that are irrelevant to our problems. The post about the unwed childbirth was a perfect example of how flawed our use of statistics is. Let's break down the claim:

the gap between the black unwed mothers use to be by a factor of 4-5 against the average. That factor has been reduced to less than double. Soon the relative gap will close even further. Progress is being made but it isn't an overnight process and wasn't solved on July 2nd, 1964. That was just the beginning of the healing process, not the ending.

First part: "4-5 times the average". The average was about 5%, black average was about 25%.

Next: "Reduced to less than double." Average is about 40%, black average is 70%.

Result: "Progress is being made"

Progress apparently comes in the form of being a smaller multiple of the national average. Never mind that it is now 30% higher than the national average now vs 20% before, let alone at a whopping 70% total. What if next the national average goes to 75%, and the Black average goes to 100%? Is that further progress???? None of this is progress, it's a ballooning problem.

Again, so what are your solutions? What are your thoughts on how we handle these problems? Republicans have also controlled cities, states and presidencies. Yet here we are. Wages are stagnating relative to inflation so I don’t know where you’re seeing increased wages. You seem to be incapable of offering anything of substance beyond quoting statistics about how bad black people have it or how democrats and liberals are bad.

Is that all you have? Is that really the extent of your capabilities? Do you seriously have nothing to offer? I mean, here is an entire thread about racism with people willing to discuss issues.

I refuse to believe you are such an empty vessel. Do better.

 

[Nightstick10]

While this report is Canada I try to other minorities as a control.
https://www.npr.org/sections/codesw...last-names-lead-to-fewer-job-interviews-still

I discard the Canadian study results as irrelevant for our discussion topic, but the same article you linked referenced a two-year American study which found the following conclusion:

"A two-year study published in the Administrative Science Quarterly Journal found that Asian job candidates in the U.S. were almost twice as likely to receive a call back if they whitened their resumes by changing their names and excluding race-based honors and organizations. (The same was true for African-American candidates)."

Thus, the disparity in callbacks between outwardly-seemingly assimilated Asian-Americans/African-Americans and John Whitey/Jane Whitey is statistical noise.

If one wants to argue that Shen-Ji Lu and Sundiata Moore should receive the same amount of callbacks as Harry Lu and Bill Moore, that is a fairly different topic.

 

[TheMikado]

I discard the Canadian study results as irrelevant for our discussion topic, but the same article you linked referenced a two-year American study which found the following conclusion:

"A two-year study published in the Administrative Science Quarterly Journal found that Asian job candidates in the U.S. were almost twice as likely to receive a call back if they whitened their resumes by changing their names and excluding race-based honors and organizations. (The same was true for African-American candidates)."

Thus, the disparity in callbacks between outwardly-seemingly assimilated Asian-Americans/African-Americans and John Whitey/Jane Whitey is statistical noise.

If one wants to argue that Shen-Ji Lu and Sundiata Moore should receive the same amount of callbacks as Harry Lu and Bill Moore, that is a fairly different topic.

I really don’t see why there should be a disparity at all based solely on name. What you stated is exactly the what the argument is, which is there should be no statistical difference regardless of name.

 

[Sàmban]

I discard the Canadian study results as irrelevant for our discussion topic, but the same article you linked referenced a two-year American study which found the following conclusion:

"A two-year study published in the Administrative Science Quarterly Journal found that Asian job candidates in the U.S. were almost twice as likely to receive a call back if they whitened their resumes by changing their names and excluding race-based honors and organizations. (The same was true for African-American candidates)."

Thus, the disparity in callbacks between outwardly-seemingly assimilated Asian-Americans/African-Americans and John Whitey/Jane Whitey is statistical noise.

If one wants to argue that Shen-Ji Lu and Sundiata Moore should receive the same amount of callbacks as Harry Lu and Bill Moore, that is a fairly different topic.

That’s...kind of the point. These disparities are the result of racist culture. Shawanda implies blackness, which leads to certain set of beliefs that lead to not calling them back. These beliefs are literally based on nothing but a name and the expectation that the candidate is black and will therefore be inferior in some way.

That’s pretty clear cut racism.

 

[Moneal]

That’s...kind of the point. These disparities are the result of racist culture. Shawanda implies blackness, which leads to certain set of beliefs that lead to not calling them back. These beliefs are literally based on nothing but a name and the expectation that the candidate is black and will therefore be inferior in some way.

That’s pretty clear cut racism.

I would argue that some of it has to do with not knowing how to pronounce the name than the fact that its a black name or an asian sounding name. Many people are afraid of mispronouncing someones name as not to offend them. Of course its still wrong to no bring someone in for an interview because you can't pronounce their name, but its has nothing to do with racism. My name gets mispronounced all the time due to being an uncommon spelling. Most are hesitant to even say it when they read it, not knowing how to pronounce it.

 

[Sàmban]

I would argue that some of it has to do with not knowing how to pronounce the name than the fact that its a black name or an asian sounding name. Many people are afraid of mispronouncing someones name as not to offend them. Of course its still wrong to no bring someone in for an interview because you can't pronounce their name, but its has nothing to do with racism. My name gets mispronounced all the time due to being an uncommon spelling. Most are hesitant to even say it when they read it, not knowing how to pronounce it.

So you think people with black names are not getting job call backs bacause...people are afraid to mispronounce their name? Lol I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous.

 

[prag16]

It’s shocking when you start to notice how much money is being made by the famous people who stoke the flames that rise from these issues.

Race Bait Incorporated. The stock is high.

Let me first let you know that 25% is actually 500% higher than 5%. Not 20%. That’s not how math works....

Eh. If the numbers he quoted (5% vs. 25% -> 40% vs. 70%) are accurate apples to apples comparisons, then sorry, you're just being pedantic, and to try to claim that as some kind of drastic improvement is crazy. Really just reflects poorly on everybody. (Though, disclaimer, his comparison could be misleading in some way; I don't know first hand.)

So you think people with black names are not getting job call backs bacause...people are afraid to mispronounce their name? Lol I’m sorry, but that’s just ridiculous.

I'd hope not. But who knows. This is anecdotal, but I've dealt with people that absolutely factor potential language barrier issues into things, not just on the names alone, but if resumes/CVs indicate that English is a second language. Not out of racism, but more out of laziness.

 

[TheMikado]

Race Bait Incorporated. The stock is high.



Eh. If the numbers he quoted (5% vs. 25% -> 40% vs. 70%) are accurate apples to apples comparisons, then sorry, you're just being pedantic, and to try to claim that as some kind of drastic improvement is crazy. Really just reflects poorly on everybody. (Though, disclaimer, his comparison could be misleading in some way; I don't know first hand.)



I'd hope not. But who knows. This is anecdotal, but I've dealt with people that absolutely factor potential language barrier issues into things, not just on the names alone, but if resumes/CVs indicate that English is a second language. Not out of racism, but more out of laziness.

Ok so let’s put this in perspective.
We don’t saying black wealth has increased 500% over 5 decades or something like that. We apply the statistics as a comparison to the social average. Whether you like it or not unwed mothers no longer have the same social stigma of past years, thus the only real comparison of contemporary success would be the social norm. As stated when compared against the Average the gap is declining it’s like none of you have ever taken college level statistics class. It why whose charts exist in the first place.

As to the resume issue, the researchers sent out fake resumes and just changed the names. They were exactly the same and there was nothing beyond the name to indicate English as a second language or other wise so any presumptions would have been strictly on the name. That’s why it’s a research study and they used the control of the resumes. Any assumptions would be based strictly on the name and unfounded without actual justification.

 

[prag16]

Ok so let’s put this in perspective.
We don’t saying black wealth has increased 500% over 5 decades or something like that. We apply the statistics as a comparison to the social average. Whether you like it or not unwed mothers no longer have the same social stigma of past years, thus the only real comparison of contemporary success would be the social norm. As stated when compared against the Average the gap is declining it’s like none of you have ever taken college level statistics class. It why whose charts exist in the first place.

Talking up how smart you are in the field of statistics is neither here nor there. Even if you can claim it's "technically correct" to do so, claiming this shift as a massive improvement in real terms is pretty shaky. Like he said, if it goes from 5/25 to 40/70 and finally to 75/100 are you going to applaud another huge improvement in the ratio and take a victory lap?

I think you've made a lot of valid points in this topic, but this is an odd hill to die on.

 

[Nightstick10]

I really don’t see why there should be a disparity at all based solely on name. What you stated is exactly the what the argument is, which is there should be no statistical difference regardless of name.

That’s...kind of the point. These disparities are the result of racist culture. Shawanda implies blackness, which leads to certain set of beliefs that lead to not calling them back. These beliefs are literally based on nothing but a name and the expectation that the candidate is black and will therefore be inferior in some way.

That’s pretty clear cut racism.

This is clearly not racism if Shen-ji Wong does not get a call back but Buford Wong DOES get a call back. This is a matter of acculturation, perceived corporate fit, and the common sense realization that white people are the dominant culture in America so, yes, we minorities have to make some efforts to meet Americana halfway if we want a seat at the table.

When I was 22, I was indignant that Jim Gringo could not parse apart one obscure ethnicity that looked like mine from the other obscure ethnicity that also kind of looked like mine. At some point, you realize it is completely unreasonable to seethe and sulk because Jim and Jill don't know the difference between Hmong and Uzbeks or Venezuelans and Paraguayans.

By 32, I had long realized it's easier to just say "Hey Jim how was your Easter dinner? Let's go check out that microbrewery and drink craft beer and play charades at Jill's after for potluck Thursday."

 

[Deleted member 12837]

This is clearly not racism if Shen-ji Wong does not get a call back but Buford Wong DOES get a call back.

But that's not what the study says:

"The previous study, also in Canada, similarly found that applicants with Anglo first names and Asian last names didn't fare much better than applicants with Asian first and last names."

So neither Shen-ji Wong nor Buford Wong gets the call back.

This isn't indicative of anything. If this was the same for black people with white sounding names, of which there are plenty, then maybe that would indicate something.

Are you even reading these links? The study was done using fake resumes. Just a bunch of black-sounding names and white-sounding names with varying levels of experience to get a wide sampling of "type" of resume (fairly objectively strong or weak based on listed skills, degrees, honors, etc). So "If this was the same for black people with white sounding names, of which there are plenty, then maybe that would indicate something." doesn't make any sense, because there aren't real people attached to these at all. Just names.

 

[TheMikado]

Talking up how smart you are in the field of statistics is neither here nor there. Even if you can claim it's "technically correct" to do so, claiming this shift as a massive improvement in real terms is pretty shaky. Like he said, if it goes from 5/25 to 40/70 and finally to 75/100 are you going to applaud another huge improvement in the ratio and take a victory lap?

I think you've made a lot of valid points in this topic, but this is an odd hill to die on.

Because we are talking about statistical averages and sociological theories. It’s not about a hill to die on it’s about pure statistically averages.

The rate of unwed mothers represents a sociological phenomenon: it’s acceptance is neither in society overall is shown to be fluid. Meaning if society trends to 75% unwed mothers then it is the societial norm. Period. You can argue and debate the merits of the effects of unwed mothers but you CANNOT debate it’s statistic prevalence as a societal norm at this point. Further the discussion is about black deviance from the statistical norm. That’s what the statistics are about!

Again I and showing you how statistics work.

Statistically we find the norm or mean in this case and then we juidge value from the mean. If the trend is that deviance from the mean is shrinking this is obviously a positive trend, regardless of where the mean itself trends. We use this because if we were to hypothetically continue the trend and the population were beyond 100% as a statistically number the growth rate of the black unwed mothers is lower than the growth rate of the National average.

There is nothing shaky about mathematics it’s is literally one of the only proven absolute truths. I’m failing to see why this is so difficult.

If the gap reduces from 500% to 175% to 25% the trend is that the gap and deviation from the mean is closing. Just because the mean changes doesn’t remove the fact that the gap is closing which is the point. Closing the statistically gap. I thought the point was equality? If black people achieve the same rate of unwed mothers as white wouldn’t equality be achieved? Isn’t that what you want?