Why do so many theists think they can back up their faith?

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Haly said:
Branduil is right. The unicorn argument is basically people high fiving each other and going "yeah right, you tell 'em". Its purpose is not to actually convince, but to ridicule and make light of the argument at hand. No one is going to "Wow, you're right, my belief in God is the same as belief in unicorns, I guess I should add unicorns to the list of things I believe in renounce my religion".

Everyone who uses the argument knows this.
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Do you think anyone has any chance of convincing ANYONE to change their religious beliefs because of an anonymous messageboard posting?
 
Every time these threads pop up, I always read them through, entirely, hoping to either read a post or be linked to a document that might reasonably convince me that religious belief is a reasonable. I'd love to neutralize the sting of losing a loved one or the thought of my own mortality. I really, really would. But I've never walked away from any of these threads with even a pang of doubt that atheism is the most sensible world-view. I do, occasionally, gain some respect for individual posters on both 'sides', but the mental leap required to actually accept and conform to religious thought never becomes any less frightening. The more I respect the intelligence of a religious person, the more insidious religion becomes as a concept.

"If this is what someone like him can believe, how else can people be manipulated? In what ways am I being manipulated at the moment without even realising it?"
 
Zzoram said:
Holy crap.

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!
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Well, yes. As that episode of TNG illustrated, behavior actually influences belief. If you behave a certain way, you will change your beliefs to fit your behavior. It's a way of reducing cognitive dissonance. If you did those conformity experiments long enough, you'd most likely end up with participants actually believing that the wrong lines match. In fact, I just did a google search and a few participants DID report actually believing the incorrect answers were correct.
 
Haly said:
Branduil is right. The unicorn argument is basically atheists high fiving each other and going "yeah right, you tell 'em". Its purpose is not to actually convince, but to ridicule and make light of the argument at hand. No one is going to say: "Wow, you're right, my belief in God is the same as belief in unicorns, I guess I should add unicorns to the list of things I believe in renounce my religion".

Everyone who uses the argument knows this.
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So, the purpose of this discussion should purely be to convince the other side that your belief system is correct? Way off the mark.
 
jaxword said:
Do you think anyone has any chance of convincing ANYONE to change their religious beliefs because of an anonymous messageboard posting?
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No, which makes this thread, and pretty much all threads like this, giant circle jerks.
 
Theists believe they are magical and of divine origin. They believe that once they are born, they will live for eternity. They are superstitious and have childish beliefs about the universe. If they did not believe such things, they would have no reason to live. Atheists are comfortable with the truth.
 
Haly said:
No, which makes this thread, and pretty much all threads like this, giant circle jerks.
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Stop projecting your (limited) perspective on threads like this over the rest of us.
 
Haly said:
Branduil is right. The unicorn argument is basically atheists high fiving each other and going "yeah right, you tell 'em". Its purpose is not to actually convince, but to ridicule and make light of the argument at hand. No one is going to say: "Wow, you're right, my belief in God is the same as belief in unicorns, I guess I should add unicorns to the list of things I believe in renounce my religion".

Everyone who uses the argument knows this.
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No, it's not. HK-47 explained it best here:

HK-47 said:
It isnt about being insulting. Its about demonstrating how rational thinking and logic work. Replace unicorns with whatever other concept that lacks proof or evidence.

You realize the Bible occupies the same area as other mythologies. Its just that when Zeus or Horus appears in historical texts people are ok with ignoring that people once believed they existed because those faiths are no longer practiced. How do you separate them from the Bible or the Bible from Hindu texts?
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It's to make a point easy to understand. So far, nobody's actually addressed how the Christian God is any different from unicorns other than that "most of the world is religious while most of the world does not believe in unicorns".

It's to make you think about it. Some Christian might read it and be defensive at first, but then later on think "Hey, that's actually kind of true..."
 
Haly said:
No, which makes this thread, and pretty much all threads like this, giant circle jerks.
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Conversions happen. Just not in the span of a single thread.

Ah poor Haly. Your relatively fair minded contrarianism tangled with the wrong opponents this day.
 
jaxword said:
Do you think anyone has any chance of convincing ANYONE to change their religious beliefs because of an anonymous messageboard posting?
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Probably not, but mostly because people in general treat discussions/arguments like chess games. They try and predict the opponent's next move so they're ready to counter instead of actually pondering the move that was just made. Sad as shit that hardly anyone is really listening to one side or the other---though that isn't to say no one is listening.
 
Zzoram said:
That was just some stupid factoid someone posted, that's not the basis of any argument.

The point is that unicorns are just as implausible as gods.

Actually, unicorns are less implausible than gods because horses exist, and we know grotesque mutations can occur.

You're right, it's wrong to compare unicorns to gods because something somewhat like a unicorn could exist and be verified.
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The point is to claim unicorns are referenced in the Bible, therefore are in equal footing with the story of Jesus i.e., is indeed an ignorant argument.

I'm glad to see you turn around, and affirm to all of us that it is plausible for unicorns to exist. So nice of you to explain that since we know horses and mutation exist, there might be a chance of them being out there. Now, since many people have already found historical evidence for God (contrary to unicorns), I'm sure you have an equal open mind to the possibility of him existing?
 
Zaptruder said:
Conversions happen. Just not in the span of a single thread.
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When you argue religion, whether in real life or on the internet, you don't argue to convince the person you are talking to.

You will NOT succeed. You may as well try to convince someone to not be happy doing the things that make them happy. If you had that level of persuasiveness, you wouldn't be posting online, you'd be busy making millions as a charismatic politician/salesman/actor/etc.

You argue for the audience. You argue to show your stance has merit, so they'll consider your point of view later on when they inevitably question themselves and the meaning of life as we all do.

At least, that's what you SHOULD be arguing for. As others can plainly see, some people argue simply because they want to see themselves persecuted. Like Ashep, who actually tried to claim religious persecution by comparing it to mocking a children's show about ponies.
 
Sanky Panky said:
The point is to claim unicorns are referenced in the Bible, therefore are in equal footing with the story of Jesus i.e., is indeed an ignorant argument.

I'm glad to see you turn around, and affirm to all of us that it is plausible for unicorns to exist. So nice of you to explain that since we know horses and mutation exist, there might be a chance of them being out there. Now, since many people have already found historical evidence for God (contrary to unicorns), I'm sure you have an equal open mind to the possibility of him existing?
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What is this evidence of God you speak of? I would love to see it. If God was real, that would be awesome, immortality woo!
 
Bungalow Bob said:
Why do so many religious people think they have a good reason for believing what they do?
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I think it's the same reason logical positivists, physicalists and platonic dreamers dance on ontological Angels' heads, and sing songs of knowings and knowers. You need a space to play, or you become the space. And what could be worse? Or better?

i6wPC.jpg
 
jaxword said:
When you argue religion, whether in real life or on the internet, you don't argue to convince the person you are talking to.

You will NOT succeed. You may as well try to convince someone to not be happy doing the things that make them happy. If you had that level of persuasiveness, you wouldn't be posting online, you'd be busy making millions as a charismatic politician/salesman/actor/etc.

You argue for the audience. You argue to show your stance has merit, so they'll consider your point of view later on when they inevitably question themselves and the meaning of life as we all do.

At least, that's what you SHOULD be arguing for. As others can plainly see, some people argue simply because they want to see themselves persecuted. Like Ashep, who actually tried to claim religious persecution by comparing to a children's show about ponies.
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Yeah, you're totally right. But nonetheless, conversions do happen. In this sort of environment, it pretty much only goes one way (not skeptical to skeptical... shedding religion in the process, if there is a religion to shed)

There are many reasons to debate and engage in these sorts of threads. But if you find yourself frustrated, as some of the posters appear to be, and feeling all kinds of hot panicky rage... best to bow out.
 
Log4Girlz said:
Now, does god ride a unicorn, or is he a unicorn. Or is he some sort of centaur half-god/half-unicorn.
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God was a white human male with blue eyes. Well, at least that's what he was when he dressed up as a human, according to many of my religious friends.
 
Sanky Panky said:
Now, since many people have already found historical evidence for God (contrary to unicorns), I'm sure you have an equal open mind to the possibility of him existing?
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Vincent Alexander said:
I will do terrible, nasty, spectacular things to you if you present this historical evidence within the next 5 minutes.
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Time is up. You can't even comprehend what you just missed out on.
 
Zzoram said:
God was a white human male with blue eyes. Well, at least that's what he was when he dressed up as a human, according to many of my religious friends.
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Why are there black people then? Why aren't all people white with blue eyes?




I shit you not I've had people tell me that black skin is the mark of Cain.
 
Zzoram said:
What is this evidence of God you speak of? I would love to see it. If God was real, that would be awesome, immortality woo!
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Sorry to disappoint guys, but no I don't hold the secret scientific findings that you seek for the existence of God. All we have are historical accounts of his work, Jesus, and everyone's personal experiences. All of these are recorded in history, and this is where faith kicks in.
 
Rez said:
Every time these threads pop up, I always read them through, entirely, hoping to either read a post or be linked to a document that might reasonably convince me that religious belief is a reasonable. I'd love to neutralize the sting of losing a loved one or the thought of my own mortality. I really, really would. But I've never walked away from any of these threads with even a pang of doubt that atheism is the most sensible world-view. I do, occasionally, gain some respect for individual posters on both 'sides', but the mental leap required to actually accept and conform to religious thought never becomes any less frightening. The more I respect the intelligence of a religious person, the more insidious religion becomes as a concept.

"If this is what someone like him can believe, how else can people be manipulated? In what ways am I being manipulated at the moment without even realising it?"
Click to expand...
Fear comes from insecurity, an unwillingness to have one's beliefs actually tested. You may consider yourself above the intelligence of a religions person, but your thought process is exactly the same as one looking at you with the same fear.
 
Hitokage said:
Fear comes from insecurity, an unwillingness to have one's beliefs actually tested. You may consider yourself above the intelligence of a religions person, but your thought process is exactly the same.
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I don't consider myself above it. That was the point of that post.
 
How does one find historical evidence of God? Where would you even begin? The trail leads all over the place. From the Sumerians,Buddha, Greek mythology etc.
 
Sanky Panky said:
Sorry to disappoint guys, but no I don't hold the secret scientific findings that you seek for the existence of God. All we have are historical accounts of his work, Jesus, and everyone's personal experiences. All of these are recorded in history, and this is where faith kicks in.
Click to expand...

So you're saying you believe ancient recorded stories about Jesus healing people with his touch or reviving from the dead? Why do you believe only those stories but not those of other religions?
 
Sanky Panky said:
Sorry to disappoint guys, but no I don't hold the secret scientific findings that you seek for the existence of God. All we have are historical accounts of his work, Jesus, and everyone's personal experiences. All of these are recorded in history, and this is where faith kicks in.
Click to expand...

But what about the historical accounts of Mohammad and Joseph Smith?
 
Rez said:
I don't consider myself above it. That was the point of that post.
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Sorry, misread a key phrase. Regardless, humans do not operate on cold logic alone. We need something that provides us with meaning, and science or any other form of empirical thought cannot offer this. In other words, smart or dumb, we all do certain things for "non-smart" reasons.
 
Hitokage said:
Fear comes from insecurity, an unwillingness to have one's beliefs actually tested. You may consider yourself above the intelligence of a religions person, but your thought process is exactly the same as one looking at you with the same fear.
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No, he's saying he considers them equally intelligent, and it worries him that equally intelligent people can believe in radically different and unscientific things since the same processes work on all and aren't limited to religion. "There, but for the grace of chance, go I."
 
Zzoram said:
So you're saying you believe ancient recorded stories about Jesus healing people with his touch or reviving from the dead? Why do you believe only those stories but not those of other religions?
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Yes on the Jesus story, and I actually don't believe in the God portrayed in the Old Testament. My faith is entirely based on how Jesus described God to be, because it makes the most sense to me. That's a judgement I have made, just how many scientists have used judgement to pick the most plausible story for how we came to be (even if they can't prove it).

I see other religions as having their own spin on the same deity, and those can be explained by the contexts in which they were interpreted (the God of the old testament being a vengeful God and protective of the jewish people i.e.). God according to Jesus is universal, and about Love. That is what makes sense to me, but then again, I don't have to back up my faith.


Ignis Fatuus said:
God I hate this fucking line.

You do realize that if this is acceptable as a justification, it can literally be applied to anything?
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Do it. I promise to not make a thread asking you to back it up.
 
Rez said:
Every time these threads pop up, I always read them through, entirely, hoping to either read a post or be linked to a document that might reasonably convince me that religious belief is a reasonable. I'd love to neutralize the sting of losing a loved one or the thought of my own mortality. I really, really would. But I've never walked away from any of these threads with even a pang of doubt that atheism is the most sensible world-view. I do, occasionally, gain some respect for individual posters on both 'sides', but the mental leap required to actually accept and conform to religious thought never becomes any less frightening. The more I respect the intelligence of a religious person, the more insidious religion becomes as a concept.

"If this is what someone like him can believe, how else can people be manipulated? In what ways am I being manipulated at the moment without even realising it?"
Click to expand...

I like this quote, regarding death from an atheist perspective:

9dabX.jpg


Correction: "Jupiter Scientific has done an analysis of this problem and the figure in Bryon's book is probably low: It is likely that each of us has about 200 billion atoms that were once in Shakespeare's body."

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/nv164/the_scientific_explanation_of_the_afterlife_is/
Click to expand...
 
Log4Girlz said:
Are you insinuating that unicorn god is somehow offensive? I think he's pretty bad ass.
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And now you're just being a complete dick. Good job. I hope you're as happy with it as you seem to be.

Other atheists: Don't worry, I don't count this against you.
 
Sanky Panky said:
Do it. I promise to not make a thread asking you to back it up.
Click to expand...

I think it's okay to rape children and cover it up. This is where faith kicks in.

Oh wait, I'm not a Christian.

That's a judgement I have made, just how many scientists have used judgement to pick the most plausible story for how we came to be (even if they can't prove it).
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Please tell me you have never passed a science class in your life.
 
Dice said:
And now you're just being a complete dick. Good job. I hope you're as happy with it as you seem to be.

Other atheists: Don't worry, I don't count this against you.
Click to expand...

You know, you rag on the atheists a lot, and deservedly so for some of them.

I don't see you ragging on the religious people when they make ignorant and embarrassing posts.

Why is that?
 
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