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[The Guivre]

I'm not a fighting fan. I happen to have a close friend who is, and so when we get together there's typically some fighters played. I even have a crappy universal Pelican arcade stick due largely in part to this situation.

However I think the problem for most people when it comes to approaching this genre is that most people who play the Soul Calibur's and the newer games have been playing things like SF II and it's many variants as well. So you get a situation where there aren't really many green horns coming into the genre. So, nobody really likes to play a game where you spend 90% of your time getting your ass handed to you by some fool's Taki or Ivy game. (inside joke)

I'd also argue that depth does not indicate quality, playability or overall enjoyment. Despite it's disputed placement in the genre just look at Smash Bros. The characters share similar move sets in terms of input and effect, it's largely 2-D in terms of it's movement, save for air dodges. And most people except for hardcore fighter fans seem to love the Hell out of it.

Conversly something a bit more technical like VF... seems to have a more hardcore and smaller audience. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[PhoenixDark]

From a graphical perspective, how do you guys think SF4 should be?

 

[bengraven]

From a graphical perspective, how do you guys think SF4 should be?

Honestly, if you can do 3D animation that looks painted, SFIV's could be beautiful. If we can definitely tell the backgrounds are polygons and weak ones at that, no thanks.

The characters have to be high-res and and sprites but there needs to be much more animation added. The jump between SFII and SFIII was big, but there needs to be a much, much bigger jump. Like a 3 or 4 times jump in the number of frames.

 

[Tain]

Anything but! I'm an advocate of any and all interfaces that are more natural, immersive, and (when applicable) life analogous. In the case of fighting games, an analog input that was capable of a much broader range of intentional input signals than a plastic pad with arbitrary buttons on it would be much more sensible. For example a gesture system (Wii?), a hydraulic hand movement tracking device, or an eyeball tracking optical device would all be preferable to the 30 year old standard digital joystick/buttons.

This makes more sense, then. I'd be interested in seeing something designed around analog input, but it would have to be completely precise for anybody to take it seriously, and I think that's the problem. CvS2 EO is an example of something tweaked for analog input, for better or for worse.

Then again, Quake 3 is every bit as serious and competitive as Virtua Fighter 4, and that entire genre is completely based around analog input. Maybe it's possible.

I still disagree with your first post, though. The commands are, in good fighting games, simple. The execution is, in good fighting games, pretty forgiving. When it comes to console games, most genres make use of combinations for input, and it rarely makes more or less sense than the commands in fighting games.

From a graphical perspective, how do you guys think SF4 should be?

They could largely recycle SF3's sprites for all I care. It should look like a higher-res unfiltered version of SF3, though.

 

[karasu]

Anything but! I'm an advocate of any and all interfaces that are more natural, immersive, and (when applicable) life analogous. In the case of fighting games, an analog input that was capable of a much broader range of intentional input signals than a plastic pad with arbitrary buttons on it would be much more sensible. For example a gesture system (Wii?), a hydraulic hand movement tracking device, or an eyeball tracking optical device would all be preferable to the 30 year old standard digital joystick/buttons.

I realize there's a very small percentage of gamers who still like fighting games and that they're vehemently defensive of the control input. I don't expect you all to change or think anyone here would agree with me, but it's the reason I don't touch fighting games and the real basis behind why most of my gaming friends aren't interested in the completely static genre.

Sooo, why does of your hatred of the plastic pad with arbitrary buttons only apply to it's use in fighting games? How do you play games in general 0_o

 

[Infernal Monkey]

Words

Holy crap 700kb avatar

 

[gimz]

SFIII3rd Strike > all other 2D fighting games

 

[negitoro7]

From a graphical perspective, how do you guys think SF4 should be?

High-res, hand-drawn and insane number of animation frames. Stages going from day to dusk to night between rounds like yesteryears.

 

[Last Hope]

I think it is because everyone knows how to play it.

I hate these fighters like MK where every character has some weird ass combo of buttons to pull off their special moves. I can play with any character in SF2 and figure out all their special moves in 30 seconds by pressing the few button combos there are for the special moves.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

The underlying gameplay engine of street fighter is almost perfect (I said almost). Even through all the sequels, it is still fun. People of some numbers will always play some form of street fighter, because the gameplay engine is just fun.

I think the same of the Tony Hawk gameplay engine as well. SOmebody will always play a tony hawk game.

 

[gimmmick]

I grew up with street fighter, and is still one of the gems that still holds up well in present day (seeing as how the sprites haven't change much since the 90ths :lol )

Street fighter 2: Hyper Fighter is still the best in the serries imo. I haven't spent enough time with 3rd strikes, maybe I should play it more.

 

[Tellaerin]

Anything but! I'm an advocate of any and all interfaces that are more natural, immersive, and (when applicable) life analogous. In the case of fighting games, an analog input that was capable of a much broader range of intentional input signals than a plastic pad with arbitrary buttons on it would be much more sensible. For example a gesture system (Wii?), a hydraulic hand movement tracking device, or an eyeball tracking optical device would all be preferable to the 30 year old standard digital joystick/buttons.

I realize there's a very small percentage of gamers who still like fighting games and that they're vehemently defensive of the control input. I don't expect you all to change or think anyone here would agree with me, but it's the reason I don't touch fighting games and the real basis behind why most of my gaming friends aren't interested in the completely static genre.

As I said in my previous post, making the control in fighters 'more life analogous' in the ways you describe would force the player to go through the motions of fighting when they play. (At least that's the impression I get, since you seem to want the games to track player's hand movements for striking/blocking.) Now, bear in mind that most people aren't hand-to-hand experts. One of the beautiful things about videogames in general is that they enable the player to do things that he/she isn't capable of in real life. To that end, an interface that allows the player to pull off complex and impressive-looking martial arts moves with a few button presses is infinitely preferable to one that requires him or her to pantomime kung fu. Maybe there's a market for something like that as a real-world training aid, but to me, that's not what videogames in general are (or should be) about.

 

[thetrin]

SFIII3rd Strike > all other fighting games

fixed

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Street Fighter is like the Mario of the Fighter genre for me. Regardless of anything else, it'll always be a nostalgic icon and have a welcome place based on that alone.

 

[ScientificNinja]

10 years after it initially came out, I actually bought an arcade unit with SF2 Turbo in it and stuck it in my den. When people come over, it STILL gets played.

 

[GamePnoy74]

10 years after it initially came out, I actually bought an arcade unit with SF2 Turbo in it and stuck it in my den. When people come over, it STILL gets played.

Me too, I have an SF2' Turbo arcade machine in my garage.

 

[Jiggy]

Same reason people like Smash Bros. The control is actually intuitive and readily-understood, go figure.

 

[Juice]

Sooo, why does of your hatred of the plastic pad with arbitrary buttons only apply to it's use in fighting games? How do you play games in general 0_o

My problem with it isn't that fighting games use game pads, that's been the only major developed interface to now. My problem is that they derive their complexity from learning counter-intuitive input sequences via the pad. To the point where you're playing the game pad more than what's going on the screen instead. The abstraction just isn't there, and it's anything but organic.

When you play just about any other game, the buttons are mapped in such a way that as when you enter an input you see its results immediately on the screen in just that way. Fighting games, and only fighting games, are built on the notion that people approaching the game have to learn (by reference or by practice) completely arbitrary, multi-step command sequences in order to gain challenge and complexity.

The input should never be the game, and when it becomes that way, the concept is completely lost on me.

As I said in my previous post, making the control in fighters 'more life analogous' in the ways you describe would force the player to go through the motions of fighting when they play. (At least that's the impression I get, since you seem to want the games to track player's hand movements for striking/blocking.) Now, bear in mind that most people aren't hand-to-hand experts. One of the beautiful things about videogames in general is that they enable the player to do things that he/she isn't capable of in real life. To that end, an interface that allows the player to pull off complex and impressive-looking martial arts moves with a few button presses is infinitely preferable to one that requires him or her to pantomime kung fu. Maybe there's a market for something like that as a real-world training aid, but to me, that's not what videogames in general are (or should be) about.

My point is that fighting games aren't any more approachable than actual martial arts because of the amount of practice and training necessary to become good at them. You're learning almost as much in arbitrary input sequences as you would be if you just drove down to the local community ed building and took a self defense class.

Granted, it wouldn't be any fun if playing a fighting game were physically exhausting, but by having an at least partially life-analogous (but more importantly analog and not digital) means of fluid and intuitive input, the genre wouldn't be lost on 99% of the population.

 

[Red Blaster]

My point is that fighting games aren't any more approachable than actual martial arts because of the amount of practice and training necessary to become good at them. You're learning almost as much in arbitrary input sequences as you would be if you just drove down to the local community ed building and took a self defense class.

This doesn't even make sense. Actual martial arts require physical endurance and years of practice and motivation to be proficient. To say learning a fighting game = learning an actual martial is bullshit.

Granted, it wouldn't be any fun if playing a fighting game were physically exhausting, but by having an at least partially life-analogous (but more importantly analog and not digital) means of fluid and intuitive input, the genre wouldn't be lost on 99% of the population.

How is the genre 99% lost on the population? VF4, Tekken, and Soul Calibur are all worldwide million sellers.

 

[Stinkles]

Hay guys. Which is better? Elbow macaroni or pastel colors?

I mean, Elbow Macaroni is good, because it really holds cream-based sauce well, but come on, pastel colors enable you to paint early morning scenes more realistically.

 

[colinp]

Not even a pandas love could save this thread =(

Hay guys. Which is better? Elbow macaroni or pastel colors?

I mean, Elbow Macaroni is good, because it really holds cream-based sauce well, but come on, pastel colors enable you to paint early morning scenes more realistically.

:lol :lol

 

[haunts]

My problem with it isn't that fighting games use game pads, that's been the only major developed interface to now. My problem is that they derive their complexity from learning counter-intuitive input sequences via the pad. To the point where you're playing the game pad more than what's going on the screen instead. The abstraction just isn't there, and it's anything but organic.

When you play just about any other game, the buttons are mapped in such a way that as when you enter an input you see its results immediately on the screen in just that way. Fighting games, and only fighting games, are built on the notion that people approaching the game have to learn (by reference or by practice) completely arbitrary, multi-step command sequences in order to gain challenge and complexity.

The input should never be the game, and when it becomes that way, the concept is completely lost on me.

Pad? LOL. Anyone who is serious about fighting games dosent use a pad. The motions you make in fighting games make perfect sense on a joystick.

It sounds like you have little to no experince with fighting games, and maybe the ones you tried, was it too hard so you just gave up? I know these newer THREE DEE games are pretty damn easy to master, so it was probably a shock when you have to devote a little more attention to the game in order to make some progress.

But seriously, what the hell are you talking about? When you do a dragon punch (f, d, df + P) You see the result, a dragon punch, immediatley. Even simpler, when you press LIGHT PUNCH, you get a jab.. when you press HARD PUNCH, you get a fierce.

Command input in fighting games isnt what makes the game, its just the first step you never got past. Once you master these inputs, thats when the game will actually have a chance to be revelaed to you on screen. After the commands become second nature, then you start work on footiesies (poking ranges), throw games, wake up games, cross ups, punishing jump ins etc etc.. The game in fighting games, is knowing how to handle each situation you encounter with a certain set of moves...instantly! Without thought, you jsut do it, you know it! It's not complex anymore YOU JUST FEEL IT. YOSH!!!

The thing that really drew me to fighting games, is its not like other games. I could beat other games in a week. Most games are SO EASY, esp. the ones that come out today, it disgusts me, this industry. They make the games so simple, but with fighting games, there is always something new to learn, always new people to play, new stratagies. This is why fighting games are the ULTIMATE GENRE and why SF will be around even when halo and xbox and all this nu school kid crap is LONG GONE.

 

[Tain]

Don't do that "lol pad" thing, please. Pads can work.

The input should never be the game, and when it becomes that way, the concept is completely lost on me.

The problem with this is that the input clearly isn't the game. Take a look at something like Third Strike. You have six buttons and a directional device. You have varying levels of each attack. And then you have the hadoken. How are you supposed to let the player throw three different levels of it with complete precision without messing up any of the other potential attacks? Assuming this is an Xbox pad, you could make it use the analog stick. This is pretty damn clunky, though, as shown in CvS2 EO. You want to simplify the command? Make it forward+punch, and suddenly you have players throwing hadokens when they simply want to punch close-range.

The game isn't trying to challenge players with the inputs. They are flexible. There's the whole negative edge thing. The input sequence isn't some random jumble of directions, it's a twist of the thumb and the punch button. I can't see how tackling that is the focus of the game.

 

[haunts]

pads can work if you plaaaay... Chun-Li! and thats about it...

I think they are better for 3d games though, since those are more taps instead of rolls for command input.

 

[Zombie James]

My point is that fighting games aren't any more approachable than actual martial arts because of the amount of practice and training necessary to become good at them. You're learning almost as much in arbitrary input sequences as you would be if you just drove down to the local community ed building and took a self defense class.

While i don't agree with that analogy at all, that's party the reason why i really like 2D fighters and the Street Fighter series specifically. Skill, training, and competition are the main reasons why i think 3rd Strike is not only the best 2D fighter ever made, but also one of the best fighters ever made. You know how long it took me to do a Shoryuken properly when i was a kid? That was a lot of quarters, and that challenge is what kept me coming back. The idea that fighting games aren't fun because they're not dumbed down enough is preposterous.

 

[ekips]

If you were around when Street Fighter II came out in the arcades. Then it will probablybe important or undeniably relevant to you forever. I remember we referred to it simply as "Look Cool, Die Fast" the game.

As some one put on here, the joy really kicked in when the controls became transparent. And the joy of finally getting "fireball" and then "dragon uppercut" is probably similar to the joy of learning to blow a bubble with bubble gum. . .i.e. people who can do it explain it in literal terms... but finally there is that moment of revelation when you just "get it"

Secondly... Street Fighter II was an incredible leap in accessibility over the original arcade Street Fighter, which had more of a novelty fun with the punch buttons in the arcade that you literally had to punch harder to create medium and fierce. . .

It also invented the game taunt.. There are fighters like you all over the world... the bomb graphic urging you to continue. ..

This was all before... The Super Nintendo --basically arcade perfect translation of SF II which was epic in that it was the first time you could have a true top notch arcade experience in your living room. And you could throw fireballs with a dpad.

And of course the series continued to tweak and make the mechanics more and more intricate and fun. . .

from the super accessible Capcom vs. X-Men to SF II: Third Strike (which basically assumes you are a SF veteran) with basically a fun version for every type of player... and even a few hiccups (that Akira 3d fighter and of course Street Fighter the Movie Game)

Now if you are under 30, and maybe Street Fighter and Tekken and VF all sorta happened at the same time, well then I respect that you had your own experience and that determines how much you like or care about 2d / 3d , interfaces, character design etc...

I'm sure everyone here who's "Dad had a Nintendo" sees gaming pretty differently and that's a good thing.

But if you were there, when there was only Street Fighter, well then you'll always have time for a fireball or 2.

 

[Juice]

While i don't agree with that analogy at all, that's party the reason why i really like 2D fighters and the Street Fighter series specifically. Skill, training, and competition are the main reasons why i think 3rd Strike is not only the best 2D fighter ever made, but also one of the best fighters ever made. You know how long it took me to do a Shoryuken properly when i was a kid? That was a lot of quarters, and that challenge is what kept me coming back. The idea that fighting games aren't fun because they're not dumbed down enough is preposterous.

I understand what you're saying and I realize that this is what most of you guys really like about fighting games. I'm just saying it's why I find them unapproachable and why a decreasing number of people find the fighting genre approachable.

That's why I think there's a lot more opportunity in completely overhauling how input in fighting games work to make them more enjoyable for the rest of us. I realize people that like fighting games the way they are aren't going to change, I'm just trying to paint an example of what it's like to be on the other side. It's not that I hate fighting, I hate how it's been controlled up until now.

I think Smash Bros. is a pretty good example of making a fighting game more approachable by having a very logical and straightforward move system (a direction plus A or a direction plus B). It's still relatively deep as in possible to become a master in multiplayer, but I realize that something like that isn't going to please people like you guys who are actually into fighting games because what you like is the challenge offered by the crazy hard input sequences required to pull off moves.

Most people on the planet aren't motivated that way, and so I think a fighting game that doesn't cater to the existing interface paradigm has the chance of being far more successful than the current niche submarket of SF/GG fans.

 

[Afro Thunder]

SFIII3rd Strike > all other fighting games

Best TheTrin's post ever :lol

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Juice: The reason why SSBM gets away with two buttons is that is has very few moves. The challenge comes from moving around and using the environment. You simply can't make fighting games any simpler without losing the variety and options. There must be a distinct move list so that every time you press forward+punch you get the attack you wanted, otherwise it all goes to button mashing hell in a handbasket. Any game that tries to add interactive environments, weapons, hazards, what have you, have to compromise the basic fighting controls because there are only so many buttons and so many reasonable combinations.

Also, making it simpler to attract newcomers won't work either. If I play against someone who has no idea what they're doing, I'll destroy them as easily in Smash Bros or Power Stone as in Third Strike or VF4Evo. If you want to play a fighting game, you must be prepared to learn it and the game must be complex enough to require you to. Otherwise there won't be a reason to keep playing it anyway.

 

[Sumasshu]

I know this has probably already been said (I'll read the thread right after this), but, in responce to the thread starter. Wow. 0_o

He creates a thread about Street Fighter, and immediately turns it into a VF vs Tekken thread. Hey buddy, Tekken VS VF threads have been done before (ahem, welcome to 1995). If you would like, I could pull up some old ones and let you see the end result. :|


Oh, and VF isn't very fun, and Street Fighter owns you.

edit: oh, banned.

Not enough people like it, that's why we don't have fucking Street Fighter IV already.
Damn I want some SF 4. :*(

SF reached its pinnacle in popularity with SF2, and look how long it took for us to get a SF3. I don't think fan base has anything to do with it.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Street Fighter II Turbo is just a game for all seasons, really. It's one of the greatest games ever and the Xbox Arcade version is easily my most wanted game.

 

[Aaron]

People who say the VF series is boring obviously haven't put enough time into it. It's the least accessable of any fighter, but once you dig through the layers and hit the right groove it's crazy fun, especially against a decent human opponent.

That said, King of Fighters series for life, yo.

 

[Bowen_B]

Virtua Fighter 4 > *
SFIII 3rd Strike > *

Totally different genres.

VF is the only 3D series I can be bothered with really although Psychic Force 2012 was good and so was Soul Calibur 1 to a lesser extent.
Can't wait for VF5

I love 2D fighters though!
Good 2D fighters: KOF 98, 3rd Strike, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Garou MotW, GGXXR, Last Blade 2, Alpha 2 and MvC1
Bad 2D fighters: MvC2 (Infinite, yawn) Alpha 3 (ISMs and schisms am suck) AoF 1 (Taunt to win)
Can't wait for Fist of the North Star and Sammy versus Capcom, Sammy saving 2D fighters.

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

A thread like this comes about on my birthday... nice.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I like to play EVERYTHING. With fighting games, variety is always a good thing. There's room for Virtua Fighter and Tekken to be together. Same with Soul Calibur and Dead Or Alive. The games take different amounts of skill to master, so there's something for everyone. Recently, I've noticed there's a trend of more simplistic fighters coming out. Games based on licenses like the various Dragonball Z fighters (I really need to give Chou DBZ a second chance), the new Kinnikuman arcade game, Jump Super Stars, the upcoming DBZ Vs. Naruto Vs. One Piece fighter, Viewtiful Joe Battle Carnival, Guilty Gear Dust Strikers, etc.

You may love spending hours getting good at Virtua Fighter, but it doesn't mean squat when your buddies come over and they can't play it for shit.

When is VF5 coming out officially in arcades, anyway? I really want to play it.

Can't wait for Fist of the North Star and Sammy versus Capcom, Sammy saving 2D fighters.

"Sammy Vs. Capcom" is vaporware. Forget about it.

But it's Sammy and SNK that are the saving grace for 2D fighters. Arc System Works needs to make a real Guilty Gear sequel already though. Fist Of The North Star ROCKS, and I cannot wait for the home version. I would like to see more characters added; the roster is a bit on the small side.

Best 2D fighters over the past couple of years are the "SNK trilogy of awesomeness" in the forms of Neo-Geo Battle Coliseum, Samurai Spirits Tenkaichi Kenkakuden, and The King Of Fighters XI. All three are just too damn good.

Really the only thing that sucks about fighters nowadays is Capcom. It's time for a new fighting game, guys. Not a Viewtiful Joe fighter. Not an Onimusha fighter (unless it's like Soul Calibur!). A REAL new fighting game. And by real, I don't mean one that's 100% recycled garbage like CFE.

 

[MarkMan]

I smell idiot(creator of this topic)...

I <3 fighting games and learned to appreciate them through competition.

 

[ChennehCis]

Much like Beowolf has said, if it's one game I keep going back to over and over again, it's Street Fighter. Even to this day, I can play old school SF2: World Warrior and still have a blast. Although it may be 2D, it has it's own set of rules that just don't work in the 3D setting like crossups, 2-in-1s, footsies and of course it still has plenty of mind games.

2D Fighters for life.