Why does the thought of an analog stick/nub equipped DS anger people ?

P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Imagine the same DS as we have now, but with a little PSP-like analog nub.
One of the pro-DS arguments is that the DS is good for the industry also because it forces developers to innovate, but wouldn't the presence of an analog stick force them to innovate even more ?

Think about all those games which use the touch-screen as an analog stick/nub replacement... would not the developers behind those games be forced to think about something better to do with the touch screen if the DS already had an analog stick/nub ?

Is anyone perhaps afraid that without the possibility of using the touch screen as an analog stick replacement that too many games would simply use the touch screen as a map ?


This is not a "DS is doomed" thread, I am just wondering about this issue.

It is not bothering me to play Super Mario 64 DS with the D-PAd because I really like the D-Pad the DS uses (very nice design), but I have to ask myself if the point of the DS was to push innovative gameplay forms and innovative ways of controlling your characters... games that use the touch screen purely as ana analog stick replacement are not really pushing any innovation in agmeplay or game controls (no, I do not feel that Super Mario 64 DS is an example of this practice, but Ridge Racer DS makes no real use of the touch screen besides replicating what you would do with an analog stick/nub).
 
OH MY GOD! THIS THREAD GETS ME SO MAD!!! I CAN'T STAND IT!! !WHY DO YOU POST THESE LIES YOU JERK!>!?!?!?!? !
 
I dunno, Pana, sounds mostly like a straw man. I've seen people saying that the DS missing an analog stick isn't a dealbreaker, but not people angry about the very thought.
 
Well, I do think it would have been nicer if it had one...

but it offers alternatives... and could well be a third business ie. Not a Gameboy. By which I mean to say: Gameboy next might have all the analog nubs we could want. And to be honest, were it not for Mario 64 (out of all the titles out now and in development), I wouldn't want one for DS games anyway.

I think it would be a shame if DS became home to lower resolution PSP games. It has the potential to be totally different... so maybe forcing developers into using the new features through the lack of a conventional one like this isn't such a bad idea.
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
I dunno, Pana, sounds mostly like a straw man. I've seen people saying that the DS missing an analog stick isn't a dealbreaker, but not people angry about the very thought.
Click to expand...

You misunderstood me, what I meant is that I have seen people angry about the idea of the DS missing the analog stick/nub as in "IT DOES NOT NEED ONE... WHY DO YOU INSIST THAT IT SHOULD HAVE SUCH A THING ?!?".
 
radioheadrule83 said:
Well, I do think it would have been nicer if it had one...

but it offers alternatives... and could well be a third business ie. Not a Gameboy. By which I mean to say: Gameboy next might have all the analog nubs we could want. And to be honest, were it not for Mario 64 (out of all the titles out now and in development), I wouldn't want one for DS games anyway.

I think it would be a shame if DS became home to lower resolution PSP games. It has the potential to be totally different... so maybe forcing developers into using the new features through the lack of a conventional one like this isn't such a bad idea.
Click to expand...

Re-read my post, please :).
 
I certainly would not have said no to an analog nub like the PSP, but it's not like it was that hard to adjust to Mario 64 with the d pad, stylus, or a combo of both. (I prefer the stylus to the thumbstrap, actually.)
 
I don't think you can force developers to "innovate" without an analog stick. If they really just don't like that the system doesn't have an analog stick, DS just won't get the game at all.
 
Panajev2001a said:
One of the pro-DS arguments is that the DS is good for the industry also because it forces developers to innovate, but wouldn't the presence of an analog stick force them to innovate even more ?

Think about all those games which use the touch-screen as an analog stick/nub replacement... would not the developers behind those games be forced to think about something better to do with the touch screen if the DS already had an analog stick/nub ?

Is anyone perhaps afraid that without the possibility of using the touch screen as an analog stick replacement that too many games would simply use the touch screen as a map ?
Click to expand...
I'm a pretty big Nintendo fan and would have liked to see an analog nub on the NDS. 3d games like Mario 64 really need them, but the touch screen is an ok replacement. Not good, not great... it's just ok. What I'm afraid though is that the analog nub would be loose. I hear stories that the nub on the PSP is even more loose than the original PSX dual shock, and that's just really shitty to hear.

And no, the presense wouldn't force them to innovate more because that would be sticking to old conventional controls.
The best example of "innovation" in gaming on a handheld is that it provides PERFECT (how many times have i repeated this?) controls for FPS. Because of this I really want to see touch screen used for console controllers.
There are many other games on the NDS that wouldn't be done correctly or be as fun if they used analog. Like say that surgeon game.
 
I think it has to do with the fact that the DS has obviously been rushed to market so most of the games that accompanied it were obviously rushed as well. The DS has major potential, we just haven't seen it yet. I think come March with Metroid Hunters and Wario Ware and other games we'll start seeing better uses of the system.

I happen to agree with radiohead on the PSP ports, though. Definitely not something I want to see the DS turn into. I'm not against having an analog nub on the DS, but he makes a compelling argument there. Never underestimate the power of developer/publisher laziness.
 
luxsol said:
I'm a pretty big Nintendo fan and would have liked to see an analog nub on the NDS. 3d games like Mario 64 really need them, but the touch screen is an ok replacement. Not good, not great... it's just ok. What I'm afraid though is that the analog nub would be loose. I hear stories that the nub on the PSP is even more loose than the original PSX dual shock, and that's just really shitty to hear.

And no, the presense wouldn't force them to innovate more because that would be sticking to old conventional controls.
Click to expand...

Isn't using the touch-screen purely as an analog-stick/nub replacement a fancy way of sticking to old conventional controls (besides for FPS games where the touch screen as a mouse replacement does work) ?
 
Eh...I don't think it needs one.

Maybe most people get mad because of all it does offer, someone goes and nit-picks? From reports of the PSP analo-nub, it isn't that amazing anyways.

I'm a master at the touch-screen analog now. I am up to my N64 mario64 skill now.
 
The moral is the story is that Mario DS should have just been Mario's Minigame Madness without any Mario 64 stuff, so that Nintendo didn't show everyone that an analog stick could be emulated using the touch pad to some degree of success.
 
fugimax said:
Eh...I don't think it needs one.

Maybe most people get mad because of all it does offer, someone goes and nit-picks? From reports of the PSP analo-nub, it isn't that amazing anyways.

I'm a master at the touch-screen analog now. I am up to my N64 mario64 skill now.
Click to expand...

I am glad you are enjoying Super Mario 64 DS, so am I (and with the D-Pad even :D).
 
The analog stick has done a lot for the industry, but it also has left a lot of non-gamers confused and closed off...

I know people that haven't got the hang of it yet, and have left gaming completely after the 16bit generation.
Nintendo wanted to reach new audiences with the concept of simplicity ... a device as simple as the Gameboy has always been ... and from what we've seen it's working, girls are taking to the DS quite well... (what is it like 24% over previouse 7.7% female buyers in Japan??)

If I was going to design the DS for myself, yea, I would've included an analog stick ... But if I was to design the DS to reach new markets, and having the dominant chriteria of attracting newbies to gaming... then I would've left the stick out.

(I'm doing fine with my 145 stars in mario using the touch screen... no it's not insanely innovative, but it'll hold me 'till some FPS or RTS games come)
 
Nintendo used to first have a software concept in mind, then create hardware to bring the idea to fruition.

Changing up the hardware to "force" creativity out of developers is looking more and more like a dumb move. Now they've just designed an oddball handheld that doesn't even have a showcase title to justify its existence and show other developers how it's done. Heck, Nintendo may have to ride out the DS generation without any sort of guarantee that it will ever receive it's defining, breakthrough game.
 
seismologist said:
analog stick is so last gen. It would be useful for ports but that's about it.
Click to expand...

Isn't using the touch screen purely as an analog stick/nub replacement so last gen too ?

Why would it hurt the DS if it had a nice little analog nub in addition to the touch screen ?
 
*shrugs* I'd certainly prefer for one to be there. But for a system that seems to remain primarily strong in 2D and have decent touch screen control alternatives in many cases, I can see how it could've been more problematic in design and cost than deemed worthy for a non-Game Boy.

You make a valid point, though: shifting some of these functions to a separate device would free up the touch screen for other uses in those games. If the same developers really had a useful idea for the touch screen in these games, though, I hope they'd be able to work around it. In a Super Mario 64 DS for instance, one half of the screen could be used as the analog replacement (either side) leaving another 128x192 area for the "other" purpose.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Isn't using the touch screen purely as an analog stick/nub replacement so last gen too ?

Why would it hurt the DS if it had a nice little analog nub in addition to the touch screen ?
Click to expand...

you act like the whole purpose of the touch screen is to be used as an analog stick. It's not. That's just one of the uses. Yeah it would be nice if the DS had an analog stick, and a d-pad, and a touch pad, and why not through in a trackball while your at it.
 
sammy said:
But if I was to design the DS to reach new markets, and having the dominant chriteria of attracting newbies to gaming... then I would've left the stick out.
Click to expand...

You still have an analog stick... think about games like Ridge Racer DS... you are doing the same thing you would do with an analog stick only with probably less precision and/or comfort.

Why not having the analog stick/nub in for games that need that kind of functionality ? Forcing developers to use the Touch Screen replacement if their game concept required analog controls to work at its best does not seem like the birghtest of all ideas Nintendo could come up with (no offense).
 
Panajev2001a said:
Imagine the same DS as we have now, but with a little PSP-like analog nub.
One of the pro-DS arguments is that the DS is good for the industry also because it forces developers to innovate, but wouldn't the presence of an analog stick force them to innovate even more ?

Think about all those games which use the touch-screen as an analog stick/nub replacement... would not the developers behind those games be forced to think about something better to do with the touch screen if the DS already had an analog stick/nub ?

Is anyone perhaps afraid that without the possibility of using the touch screen as an analog stick replacement that too many games would simply use the touch screen as a map ?
Click to expand...

Reread as requested. I see what you're saying... I can see the logic in that. If analog control was taken care of, the screen would be freed up for other, newer functions.. But again, I think the lack of an analog nub/stick could have a useful side effect too. People are going to see such control methods as inferior to sticks/the-nub, which provide you with constraints, and snap back to their center for you. So when it comes down to it - some types of game (ie. traditional 3d platformers) will look and in functional terms play better on PSP. On the other hand, as we've seen, FPS can work tremendously well. Other software that might flourish mightn't be game software at all, it could be like Mario Paint, like Stage Debut, like PC RTS', Sim City-esque games or point and click adventures. Totally new games (AND applications) could be potentially built around the strengths of this machine too. But games as found on the home consoles will seem like low resolution PSP. Obviously you can't get that impression with Mario 64 as there's no PSP equivilent, but it could happen with other third party franchise titles. So I think people might force themselves to come up with different things if they want to make a sell. Spiderman 2 is a good example of how games might differ from DS to PSP (even if it does suck).

I would be really impressed if, as you suggest, it could have been intentionally left out to stop people using the touch screen as a map.
 
seismologist said:
you act like the whole purpose of the touch screen is to be used as an analog stick. It's not. That's just one of the uses. Yeah it would be nice if the DS had an analog stick, and a d-pad, and a touch pad, and why not through in a trackball while your at it.
Click to expand...

It has a D-Pad and a touch pad (the track-ball is not needed, think about it).

I am not acting as if the Touch Screen had only the purpose of being an analog stick replacement: this is surely the opposite of what Nintendo itself had in mind IMHO.

Using it as an analog stick/nub replacement is not makign a good use of the screen in any innovative way... we have used analog stick/nub controls for a while in the gaming sector.

I am arguing that replacing an analog stick/nub should not be a way for developers to use the Touch Screen unless (like in Metroid) it could do a better job at controlling the game: hence why I argued for an inclusion of a nice and little analog nub.
 
Mr. Lemming said:
The moral is the story is that Mario DS should have just been Mario's Minigame Madness without any Mario 64 stuff, so that Nintendo didn't show everyone that an analog stick could be emulated using the touch pad to some degree of success.
Click to expand...

I agree. I'd of liked to have seen Mario 64 made out to be the fun extra like the Zelda bonus disk or something... with their promotion focused on the minigames. They make a better use of the machines abilities in some cases.

I think Yoshi's Touch & Go looks really promising in this regard.
 
Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I'm convinced that 'touch-screen' does the trick for simulating analog control ....
Developers can still screw this up (See: RRDS) but I've had no problem what-so-ever with using the screen in MarioDS from the start .... Took me my first 2 stars to really get the hang of it, and that's quicker than it took me to get the hang of analog control back when Mario64 was released for the 64....

With a few more stars I'll be at 150, and looking forward to more platformers (I've never played Rayman 2)....

(But I stoped considering myself a good judge of difficulty and control, back when I beat Gunvalkyrie in 2 days never thinking it was that hard...)
 
sammy said:
Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I'm convinced that 'touch-screen' does the trick for simulating analog control.
Click to expand...

This is beyond the point. Is the Touch Screen innovating in those titles in which it simply replies an analog stick/nub ?
 
DS should have an analogue stick. But you'd have to have a PSP in your avatar to think that having one would force devs to become more creative. If it wasn't an analogue replacement it would be a map, or whatever excuse a dev could make for not thinking of anything better. Devs know that at this point they really don't have to put anything useful on that screen to get a game to sell
 
Future said:
DS should have an analogue stick. But you'd have to have a PSP in your avatar to think that having one would force devs to become more creative. If it wasn't an analogue replacement it would be a map, or whatever excuse a dev could make for not thinking of anything better. Devs know that at this point they really don't have to put anything useful on that screen to get a game to sell
Click to expand...

Cool and you even managed to put a personal attack in there, how bomb-shigi-diggity of you.

First of all I was not stating that there really is something Nintendo can do to effectively force to make a real effective use of the touch-screen... I was addressing the fact that supposely the DS was marketed as innovating gameplay and game controls and if forcing that was Nintendo's idea then I wondered about those games that choose the cheap way out.

Also, Nintendo does not have to approve every game that is submitted: would you think that having a regular game which makes no other use of the touch screen besides displaying a map would easily pass Nintendo's quality control testing very easily ?
 
Panajev2001a said:
Isn't using the touch-screen purely as an analog-stick/nub replacement a fancy way of sticking to old conventional controls (besides for FPS games where the touch screen as a mouse replacement does work) ?
Click to expand...
No, because analog only simulates and represents your actions on screen. Basically all controls are like this. With touchscreen you're in direct control of the actions going onscreen. It's more of a first (FPS) or second person (strategy) control than analog. These are all mouse games though. However, if you think about it, mouse controls is a downgraded version of touch screen. Mouse is an offscreen approach of moving things around on screen, while touch screen is more direct (and intuitive).

Games where it is a fancy replacement are third person games like Mario 64 or Ridge Racer (except for "in the car view")

BTW, if you want to go into the extreme, all controls are fancy way the digital pad. =P
 
Heh, I didn't really mean that as a personal attack, but I had to put that in there cuz it was so easy. :p

--------------
I was addressing the fact that supposely the DS was marketed as innovating gameplay and game controls and if forcing that was Nintendo's idea then I wondered about those games that choose the cheap way out.
---------------

My point was that clearly an analogue nub wouldn't have prevented games from taking the cheap way out. Nintendo could force the issue yeah by not licensing software, but it would be like forcing devs to make use of the N64 analogue stick effectively when first released. No point in it. All they can do is provide the tools and hope that devs can make use of them. If they can't, do it themselves with 1st party software. If they can't themselves, then there was no reason for having it in the first place

The main problem with that touch screen is that many people will consider what's being done now as really not making use of the touch screen. But really what can be done? Aside from a few writing minigames and mouse-like controls for menu selection or player movement I'm not sure what else you can expect. It's just another form of user input, and that functionality itself is the cool thing IMO. Not some revolutionary genre breaking title use of it.
 
well if enough people complain about the lack of a stick, i wouldnt be surprised to see a stck equipped ds sp in a year.
 
I'm curious about the analog nub on the PSP. How loose is it compared to the Dual Shock (1 or 2)?

To everyone who has a PSP and NDS already: does the NDS offer better "analog" control like in Mario than the PSP nub does for its 3rd person games?
 
As nice as I think the DS is I have to agree that an analog stick/nub would have been appreciated. I will make do, because I have to. But I think I would enjoy Super Mario 64 more if I had an analog stick to go with it.
 
I guess my view is that talking about it is meaningless as it doesn't have one.

There's a certain reality that you just need to deal with.
 
Panajev2001a said:
http://www.nintendo.com/overviewds
Click to expand...
No contradiction. It does 3D and lots of games do 3D, sure. But I look at Nintendo's current and upcoming games and see 2D Wario, 2D Yoshi, 2D Peach, 2D Advance Wars. But games that use 3D graphics and are meant to play like the 3D console games we know are in the minority. As others have pointed out, that's what plainer portables like PSP are designed for, and will be better at.

G4life98 said:
well if enough people complain about the lack of a stick, i wouldnt be surprised to see a stck equipped ds sp in a year.
Click to expand...
No. On a Game Boy More Advance in two years, sure.
 
I want off the wall and innovative first party games, not traditional sequels that are out of place on the DS. Save them for GBA2.

I want insane 2d games that make use of the touch screen. Fuck most traditional 3d games. Save them for GBA2.

I want online up and running.

I want the online browser. And a organizer.

I want RTS and TBS games.

I want first person shooters.

I want more awesome GBA games to play on it.

I want Pokemon P/D to push the limits of the system. Online play is a must. Cel shaded 3 d world? This game has to be huge. Don't rush it Nintendo.

I want some fuckin connectivity. Ya, I love four swords. Co-op action RPG's where you can draw runes on screen in real time. Drag and drop items to your partners. Maybe zoom in and let arrows fly in first person. I don't know, this shit has potential.

Anyway, analog sticks are far down the list. I say take advantage of the awesome potential of the system as it is. Do the traditional shit + awesome 3d capabilities + dual analog sticks on GBA2.
 
krypt0nian said:
Yeah ok. Care to explain yourself?
Click to expand...


Ok the Reality you need to Deal with is that not having an Analog Stick while releasing 3d games is a fucking huge design flaw....i mean cmon they released mario 64 a 7 year old game which actually controls worse now. You need to realize ppl will always complain, because its such an obvious flaw and will effect pretty much every 3d game that comes out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Nintendo's analog stick patent for switch 2 (?)
34
3K
awwr999999 replied
Why people don't demand that companies give them the option to resell digital games?
Opinion  2 3
120
121
TwiztidElf replied
If competition is good for the industry, why does everyone want Xbox to fail?
7 8 9 10 11
500
2K
sono replied
Gaming today is more versatile & complete than it has ever been so why is there people crying about the state of the industry?
2 3
133
1K
awwr999999 replied
  • Locked
Why do people blow the Xbox controller so much?
Opinion  2 3
136
5K
GHG replied
Top Bottom