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[tedtropy]

Now it's not my intent for this to turn into another Christian-bashing thread, although it'll likely come to that . I'm honestly just curious here.

There's been times in my life where I've been depressed enough to turn to religion, if just out of sheer desperation. I'm not saying religion is just a sanctuary for the desperate, as I have alot of respect for people who happen to be very devout Christians, namely my father and one of my good friends. Anyways, everytime I try to turn to a Christian solution to my problems, I get the whole "well look at the story of Job" spiel...and I generally walk away more depressed than when the speech began. What lesson am I supposed to learn from this? That God gives into peer pressure? The whole story is supposed to be a big "I told you say" to Satan, all while one his devout followers is horribly screwed over for the sake of an example. Shouldn't we be a little worried that God is so concerned about what Satan would think, and that he's willing to use us as some celestial Powerpoint presentation to the guy that, essentially, embodies evil?

I think there's alot of good things to be extracted from the Bible (although I feel they tend to be much more symbolic than literal), but using the book of Job as a newcomer sales pitch just seems like a bad idea and kind of makes God out to be, frankly, an asshole. Save me, GAF!

 

[karasu]

Job never lost faith or hope. He never turned his back on what he believed in even when it seemed like everything was against him

 

[border]

It's just one of the the religion's carefully contrived answers to "Why am I suffering if God loves me?" The main other excuse being that crappy "God works in mysterious ways" bit.

I suppose you can just take it as a folklore fable about how you shouldn't lose your faith in hard times, and it really does sound like folklore or myth. If you read it literally, then God is kind of an asshole (but then He's always seemed like that to me). I guess you are supposed to look at Job as the true "example" and ignore how Job is essentially God's plaything, and is treated mercilessly for the sake of proving a point to Satan.

 

[tedtropy]

Job never lost faith or hope. He never turned his back on what he believed in even when it seemed like everything was against him

Including the guy he had the faith in? That's not faith at that point, it's enduring an abusive relationship. I sometimes get the feeling that God and Jesus are kind of the bad cop and good cop of religion...

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Job has always been a problem to me...

God and Satan placing bets on what Job will do when faced with all these curses upon him.

Thats just fucked up I get tired of hearing Christians try to rationalize it.

 

[karasu]

Including the guy he had the faith in? That's not faith at that point, it's enduring an abusive relationship. I sometimes get the feeling that God and Jesus are kind of the bad cop and good cop of religion...

Yeah but I wouldn't take it too literally. Shit happens in life whether you think God is an asshole or not. More importantly, it happens whether the person it's happening to is a "saint" or a "sinner" which is more the point of the story. Contrary to what Pat Robertson and those of his ilk teach. we don't suffer because we're imperfect. being "a believer" doesn't excuse you from lifes trials.

 

[tedtropy]

Yeah but I wouldn't take it too literally. Shit happens in life whether you think God is an asshole or not. More importantly, it happens whether the person it's happening to is a "saint" or a "sinner" which is more the point of the story. Contrary to what Pat Robertson and those of his ilk teach. we don't suffer because we're imperfect. being "a believer" doesn't excuse you from lifes trials.

And I can appreciate that, but the thing is, was this 'trial' really necessary? This isn't some guy's car breaking down in the middle of paychecks, the is God consciously screwing over one of his followers for the sake of proving some needless point to the embodiment of evil.

 

[Duck of Death]

The only stories you should believe literally are the story of Jonah and the whale and the chronicles of Moses. Why? Well, Jonah survived being eaten by a whale, which makes him too much of a badass not to believe in. And Moses is probably kicking god's ass in hell right now for denying him the land whose claim he rightfully stole.

 

[karasu]

And I can appreciate that, but the thing is, was this 'trial' really necessary? This isn't some guy's car breaking down in the middle of paychecks, the is God consciously screwing over one of his followers for the sake of proving some needless point to the embodiment of evil.

No it wasn't. It's a story meant to prove something to believers. I don't even think Satan was seen as evil at that point. Job never blamed him or God(his friends did), because ultimately it wasn't either of them. It's just how life works, crap happens, this isn't a perfect world. It's one giant metaphor. The point of that story is very relevant.

 

[human5892]

NEVER GIVE UP

TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS

 

[tedtropy]

No it wasn't. It's a story meant to prove something to believers. I don't even think Satan was seen as evil at that point. Job never blamed him or God(his friends did), because ultimately it wasn't either of them. It's just how life works, crap happens, this isn't a perfect world. It's one giant metaphor. The point of that story is very relevant.

How wasn't it caused by either of them when God was giving running commentary and saying "look what I do to this guy and still have him retain his faith". It doesn't seem like a case of "crap happening", it seems like a case of God willing these horrible events to occur.

 

[karasu]

How wasn't it caused by either of them when God was giving running commentary and saying "look what I do to this guy and still have him retain his faith". It doesn't seem like a case of "crap happening", it seems like a case of God willing these horrible events to occur.

Well if you take it literally I think you're right. But if you take it literally God also gave Job twice as much as he had at the end of the story so I guess you could look at it as a trial of faith. I think the bulk of the stories meaning is shown in Jobs conversations with his friends and family though. Everything else is peripheral. God and Satan are used as deus ex machina like in a Greek myth.

 

[tedtropy]

Well if you take it literally I think you're right. But if you take it literally God also gave Job twice as much as he had at the end of the story so I guess you could look at it as a trial of faith. I think the bulk of the stories meaning is shown in Jobs conversations with his friends and family though. Everything else is peripheral. God and Satan are used as deus ex machina like in a Greek myth.

And isn't a deus ex machina little more than a synonym for "quick, make up some bullshit to justify this"?

 

[karasu]

I dont think justify is the right word.

 

[MC Safety]

I think it's the feel-good smiting story of the year.

 

[LakeEarth]

NEVER GIVE UP

TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS

(shoots Peppy)
WHAT'S THE BIG IDEA, GOD??

 

[tedtropy]

I dont think justify is the right word.

Regardless, it's just hard for me to think of God as the good guy or savior in this story. It's like accidently setting your friend's house on fire, giving him some money for the damage, and calling the conflict resolved.

 

[ManDudeChild]

I dont think justify is the right word.

Perhaps not, but bullshit fits in perfectly.

 

[karasu]

Regardless, it's just hard for me to think of God as the good guy or savior in this story. It's like accidently setting your friend's house on fire, giving him some money for the damage, and calling the conflict resolved.

Its hard for me to think of God as the good guy in the story of the Egyptians and the Hebrews. All i can come up with is that ultimately he'd know whats good better than we would. But I don't take the Bible literally for the most part.

 

[Hyoushi]

 

[human5892]

(shoots Peppy)
WHAT'S THE BIG IDEA, GOD??

:lol

Job: MY EMPOOOOORERRRR! I'VE FAAAAAAAAILED YOOOOOU!

 

[Slo]

I struggle with this as well. Another major sticking point for me is the whole Hell thing. God is infinite love and is infinitely powerful, but he also lets one of his underlings kick sand in his face and set up a wonderland of everlasting torture? Instead of doing anything about it, God then decides that he'll condemn all is disobedient children to an eternity in the place, so they can burn forever in a lake of fire? I have two kids, and I can't think of *anything* that they could do that would make me sentence them to a fate like that. Does that make me more merciful than God?

 

[karasu]

eh, I don't take Hell literally either. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't fit with anything the Bible says about God. I think Hell is being seperate from God. Not literal fire and brimstone. That's crap people use to scare people into conforming.

 

[Zaptruder]

I particularly like how God allowed Satan to smite job's family just to piss Job off.

"Yeah sure buddy, I don't care what you do to Job, just don't take his dick or his life. You can take his fingernails though, or maybe even his family. ... *wink wink nudge nudge*."

 

[Jim Bowie]

People are making the same mistake in this thread that they do in real life. Satan is not supposed to be the manifestation of Lucifer- he's actually just supposed to be some random man that doubts the faith of God's followers. God then says, "Fuck you, my boys is my boys." So he creates all these plagues, tragedies... but Job doesn't lose his faith. At points, Job gets really pissed off and confused at why God is letting this happen, but he doesn't lose his faith. Then Satan (which is the name of the character, not the actual Christian entity), says "Oh fuck this." and walks off.

What happens at the end is pretty good shit for Job. He made Job twice as rich as he was and gave him a ton of farm animals. Then, Job became uber-fertile, fucked a bunch of ladies, and had seven sons and three daughters, who were the most beautiful women in the region (paraphrased from Job 42).

This might have two morals:

1. Let the haters hate, just have faith and everything will be okay. This one has more than a few faults, but it's not the moral used as often as...

2. Good things will come around, so soldier through the bad times. Usually applied to rely on faith for the soldiering through part.

 

[Slo]

You just completely glossed over the whole "God inflicting pain and suffering to win a bet" thing. :lol

 

[human5892]

People are making the same mistake in this thread that they do in real life. Satan is not supposed to be the manifestation of Lucifer- he's actually just supposed to be some random man that doubts the faith of God's followers.

Hmm, that's interesting...I'm no Christian, but I did read the story of Job in a humanities class back in high school, and the version I read seemed pretty clear on the fact that this was the actual no-foolin' devil, not some jerk. I couldn't tell you what version it was that I read, though.

 

[Laguna X]

I particularly like how God allowed Satan to smite job's family just to piss Job off.

"Yeah sure buddy, I don't care what you do to Job, just don't take his dick or his life. You can take his fingernails though, or maybe even his family. ... *wink wink nudge nudge*."

:lol I can envision this being in an episode of Family Guy. Oh the hilarity. I hope Seth MacFarlane is reading this.

 

[Yossarian]

Actually Bowie, while you make some good points, scholars think that the ending of Job was tacked on later to give the story a happy ending.

The story is inspirational because of all the shit job went through and his ability to maintain his faith and hope in God. Just because bad shit happens does not mean you've angered God or whatever - life just sucks sometimes.

edit : Bowie is completely correct about Satan, however. Satan just means "accuser", and that was his job in God's court - to test God's followers. This story, along with the Lucifer story and Jesus' mention of Satan, is what led to the story, created in the middle ages, of a antithesis to God.

Fun fact - Satan is only described in the gospels once: Peter, the future bishop of Rome is called Satan by Jesus.

 

[human5892]

The story is inspirational because of all the shit job went through and his ability to maintain his faith and hope in God. Just because bad shit happens does not mean you've angered God or whatever - life just sucks sometimes.

I think what tedtropy and others are having trouble with, though, is the fact that in the story, the shit was happening because of God, which puts a damper on the original message of inspiration and turns it into one of blind faith or even some kind of parallel to an abusive relationship -- keep the faith and soldier on, even if it's God himself who's dicking you over!

 

[explodet]

This is Old Testament God, with the smitings and the flooding and the turning into pillars of salt. Mysterious ways indeed.


"For you came unto Abraham and said 'Do you believe in me, Abraham?' and Abraham said 'Yes!' and you said 'In that case, go into the next room, get a knife, kill your own kid. Do it now!' And Abraham looked upon the face of God and said '... lemme see if I got this... Could I not merely punch the lad to show my devotion? For I have just spent a fortune on dental work and it seems such a waste to ice the little pisher oh Mighty One!'"

 

[Jeffahn]

I makes sense 'coz everyone needs a job.

...

 

[Yossarian]

I think what tedtropy and others are having trouble with, though, is the fact that in the story, the shit was happening because of God, which puts a damper on the original message of inspiration and turns it into one of blind faith or even some kind of parallel to an abusive relationship -- keep the faith and soldier on, even if it's God himself who's dicking you over!

Its a fable illustrating a point. The only people, in the history of Christianity and Judaism, to take the story 100% literally as God hurting someone are the modern day fundies. Even in the middle ages it wasn't taken literally.

Its a moral fable, like many of the stories in the bible, and the important part of the story isn't the details but the lessons involved.

 

[Jim Bowie]

Slo- notice how I never said that it was rightful of God and Satan to make this gamble. God shouldn't have messed with Job, but I was just clarifying the main point of the story according to the scripture. In my opinion, God had a tendency throughout the old testament to be sort of an ass, and then Jesus brought the "GOD IS LOVE" maxim back around. So it's not too out of character for God to have done this to Job.

human- I didn't read the entire article, but the following link seems to be an abridged version of the scholarly journal I read on the subject of Satan vs. Satan. Most of the stuff about Satan in Job refers more to his moniker than his position. Satan, in Aramaic, roughly means "Adversary" or "The Opponent". Therefore, it was an easy was for the penner of Job to show his audience HERE IS THE BAD GUY, I LEFT HIM RIGHT HERE.

http://www.willamette.edu/~blong/MoreJobEssays/TheSatan.html

Yoss- That's interesting! And it would add a whole new spin on the story. Do you have a link to the article?

Oh, and don't forget- Satan was mentioned during Jesus's trials before his death. Although more evidence points to that being the ACTUAL Satan rather than just a guy called Satan.

 

[tedtropy]

Its a fable illustrating a point. The only people, in the history of Christianity and Judaism, to take the story 100% literally as God hurting someone are the modern day fundies. Even in the middle ages it wasn't taken literally.

Its a moral fable, like many of the stories in the bible, and the important part of the story isn't the details but the lessons involved.

I've never taken the story as literal, I just think it's ineffective as a fable and makes God seem more like a distant amoral ruler than some compassionate parent of all creation.

 

[human5892]

human- I didn't read the entire article, but the following link seems to be an abridged version of the scholarly journal I read on the subject of Satan vs. Satan. Most of the stuff about Satan in Job refers more to his moniker than his position. Satan, in Aramaic, roughly means "Adversary" or "The Opponent". Therefore, it was an easy was for the penner of Job to show his audience HERE IS THE BAD GUY, I LEFT HIM RIGHT HERE.

http://www.willamette.edu/~blong/MoreJobEssays/TheSatan.html

Thanks. Actually right before you posted that I had a vague memory of my teacher introducing the idea to the debate that maybe it wasn't the Satan in the story, so your post and that link makes all the more sense.

Yossarian: Yeah, I realize that, it just seems like an odd design choice for the story, even if it is something that you're not supposed to take literally.

 

[Yossarian]

Yoss- That's interesting! And it would add a whole new spin on the story. Do you have a link to the article?

It was something we discussed in college (I was a religion major for a semester or so...) However, I did find an article on the subject, but it appears that the "new ending" theory is at best a minority view: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjob.html

 

[Link648099]

Tedtropy,

It helps, when approaching any book or writing in the Bible, to know what it is that you are reading. The book of Job is a very old book, many scholars say that it is probably the oldest book of the entire Bible. The first thing to do is to try and understand the litereary genera that Job is. The link below is from the Catholic Encyclopedia, and gives a fairly good run down of the book, it's contents, and it's purpose.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08413a.htm

To learn about the book and it's meaning, go to people who actually know what they are talking about, Biblical scholars and commentaries on the book. Do a serious search online for information about the book if you are the least bit serious about understanding it. The link I gave you above is a great place to start. If you approach the issue half-assed, your gonna get a half-assed understanding of it. Go to Barns & Noble or somewhere, find a Bible dictionary or encyclopedia, and look up Job. They usually have lots of good information in a concise style written by people who know what they are talking about. If you live around any Christian book stores, go see if they have a commentary on Job that you can sit down and read the introduction too.

The book of Job is a poem some 3000 years old at least, translated from another language, and from another culture. Many people have trouble understanding Shakespeare, so of course oyur average reader wont have a clue as to the full understanding of Job just by their common knowledge.

 

[Link648099]

I struggle with this as well. Another major sticking point for me is the whole Hell thing. God is infinite love and is infinitely powerful, but he also lets one of his underlings kick sand in his face and set up a wonderland of everlasting torture? Instead of doing anything about it, God then decides that he'll condemn all is disobedient children to an eternity in the place, so they can burn forever in a lake of fire? I have two kids, and I can't think of *anything* that they could do that would make me sentence them to a fate like that. Does that make me more merciful than God?

Well, what you have here is whats called a popular misunderstanding of it all. Satan was kicked out of Heaven; he didnt leave on his own. Also, Hell wasnt made by Satan to play around in, it was made for Satan and all of his demons to be kept in once the final judgement is rendered. Hell, as it's currently understood, isnt all "fiery brimstone" and what not. You got to do a good in depth Greek and Hebrew word study of the Hell verses in the Bible to learn that that was meant to be metephorical. Basically to summarize Hell, it is a place of quarintine (sp?), and a place where the presence of God is not felt. In other words, consider much worse then fire and brimstone.

Ok, about your kids statement, I dont want to get into the whole story here, PM if you want to, but to put it quickly, that doesnt happen, as God did make a big effort to save the human race through Jesus Christ. What it comes to know is the humans making the choice to follow God or not. So essentially what ever judgement is rendered to whatever portion of humanity is what they have decided to bring upon themselves.

 

[Bluecondor]

You have to remember the context when this story was written. To be fair, I agree that God would sound pretty horrible and abusive if the story was written by a modern day author.

But - think about the time when it was written. People lived much shorter lives, on average, and probably experienced much more death and disease and debilitation, on average - than we do in modern times. The question "How can a just God allow a believer to experience so much pain and suffering?" was probably a regular thought in peoples' minds.

And - to be fair - I think you could do a pretty good job re-writing the story of Job in modern times, perhaps with Job being the spouse of someone who died in 9/11, or something along those lines.

The story of Job actually cuts across all religions. Why should people believe in God when there are so many examples of believers who suffer (and sometimes even suffer for their beliefs)?

In fact, you can read very similar themes in the Holocaust reflections/memoirs of people like Elie Wiesel and Primo Levi. I have even read chapters in books that are literally titled, "Where Was God During the Holocaust?"

 

[Escape Goat]

He who lives upon hope will die fasting. I suppose one can interchange hope and faith here.

 

[border]

The story of Job actually cuts across all religions. Why should people believe in God when there are so many examples of believers who suffer (and sometimes even suffer for their beliefs)?

It doesn't really cut across all religions because not all religions claim that their God(s) is/are unconditionally loving and regard us as their precious children.

 

[Bluecondor]

I see your point about the concept of unconditional love leading to greater a sense of entitlement.

Still though - one can imagine that it would be a universal human reaction to question why one's God would either permit, ignore or be apathetic toward instances of human suffering - particularly among the faithful. So, while the belief in unconditional love may not be universal, the awareness of the existence of human suffering and a belief in a higher deity must be a natural source of dissonance.

 

[Batmonk]

I appreciate how well this thread is going. I've heard and read Job many times, but my perspective has always been that of a believer.
Lets face it, Job suffered, and suffered because he was the most righteous man God knew. Satan was walking all over looking for someone corrupt, someone that God loved. God suggested Job, confident that Satan could do anything to him and he would not lose faith. Satan says he can't because God guards his life. So God gives him permission to do anything he likes, so long as he doesn't kill him. So, Satan takes away everything, house, kids, livestock, and eventually his health. He leaves him with his wife and a few friends that are convinced he did something to anger God. Job insists that he did nothing wrong, but goes out to ask God "Why?!" God responds by telling him he has no right to ask, that He owes Job nothing, and that everything is in His control from beginning to the end. God then gives Job back everything he had and more for his faith.

That's the way I learned it. I believe it to be a true story, but that shouldn't matter to this topic. The point is, no matter what happens, it's because God wants it to, for His own reasons. To have faith in God is to believe in His sovereignty; to know that you are dust. Job never thought of himself worthy of anything. Man is sinful, evil, and unworthy of anything but death. To call God a bully or heartless is to show that you don't understand the relationship man has with God. We are created, He is the creator. It's is likened to a pot asking the potter "Why did you make me how I am?" God creates us in love, but our fates are still in His hands.

Job's faith was tested and rewarded, Job's friends did not understand why bad things do or do not happen, and we have a lesson in how it all works. Humble yourself before God and He will raise you up.

 

[8bit]

Replace Job with Jobs, problem solved!

 

[border]

Of course a pot isn't a sentient being, can't feel suffering, and a potters doesn't go around proclaiming undying love for his pots all the while letting them get smashed to pieces by outside forces.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Replace Job with Jobs, problem solved!

Seriously I did think this thread was going to be about Steve Jobs :\

Also there's a bible quote that goes along the line of 'God's logic\reasoning is different to that of man'- so that explains why God isn't seen as bad.

 

[temp]

Seriously I did think this thread was going to be about Steve Jobs :\

Me too. I read over the title six times before I actually got it.

 

[SpoonyBard]

Seriously I did think this thread was going to be about Steve Jobs :\

I'm glad I wasn't the only one...

 

[shpankey]

The problem with man trying to rationalize anything that has gone wrong in his life is that he is too narrow minded and focused on the miniscule time he lives in the flesh (your life as you know it now). If you take a moment and consider the time spent here in relation to the everlasting, you will see how it's pointless to overstate how important everything that happens in the here and now is.

That's not to say you shouldn't value what happens, because you of course should. It's just that you shouldn't get so caught up with what's happening to you... good or bad and instead consider that it's how you act in those situations that matters most. It's about who you are, not what is happening to you.

Also, God does not 'allow' everything to happen to you. God has given man free will. No strings attached. If some other man/men/woman/women bring a ton of shit down on you, it has nothing to do with God... even if it's murder, rape, etc. It's a hard thing to understand and come to terms with, but given enough thought it makes perfect sense.

As far as Job, God never tested him... God only admired him (initially - later to set him straight on who was God) and also sparred his life. There have been a few other men God has admired, one he even ascended to Heaven before his death. The thing about the Job story that's hard for everyone goes back to my original point... we look at the story and are to focuses on the here and now.. the time here on earth. God looks at everything in relation to infinity. The things happening to Job were just a millisecond of time in this regard.