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[tedtropy]

The problem with man trying to rationalize anything that has gone wrong in his life is that he is too narrow minded and focused on the miniscule time he lives in the flesh (your life as you know it now). If you take a moment and consider the time spent here in relation to the everlasting, you will see how it's pointless to overstate how important everything that happens in the here and now is.

That's not to say you shouldn't value what happens, because you of course should. It's just that you shouldn't get so caught up with what's happening to you... good or bad and instead consider that it's how you act in those situations that matters most. It's about who you are, not what is happening to you.

Also, God does not 'allow' everything to happen to you. God has given man free will. No strings attached. If some other man/men/woman/women bring a ton of shit down on you, it has nothing to do with God... even if it's murder, rape, etc. It's a hard thing to understand and come to terms with, but given enough thought it makes perfect sense.

That's the thing though, the horrible things that occurred to Job weren't a result of the natural action of his free will. They were brought about by outside parties, namely the God that is so adamant about stressing our 'free will'. Unless you deduce that since Job freely choose to worship God so, he is susceptible to being screwed by him.

 

[shpankey]

God did not bring it to him. Satan did.

Read the end of the story where God talks to Job and asks him where he was when he set the foundation of the earth, and the moon and the stars for your answer. That is the answer to your question God has given us all.

 

[DCharlie]

.... with Gods permission.

 

[shpankey]

God had faith in Job.

 

[tedtropy]

God had faith in Job.

Then why did he have to prove it to anyone else...and screw over what he would consider to be a good man in the process? Thank Jesus that God doesn't do anti-peer pressure drug ads.

 

[DCharlie]

and Job had faith in a God who royally fucked him over to win a bet.

to prove some pissy point.

to a God who was HANGING OUT WITH THE DEVIL.

you know alarm bells are ringing.

 

[shpankey]

I wouldn't call it 'prove it'. God just is the ultimate optimist. If you look at the Bible, you will see just how important Faith is to God. He had faith in Job.

But if you look at the story a little closer, one might also surmise that this is a story to also let us know that God is not going to stop all the shit that comes every persons way. By reading this story, we understand that God does not necessarily ever step in and 'save the day' as it were. No matter how atrocious it is. We have to go through what we go through, good or bad and make our own decisions through those times. Which is what's important. It show who you are... it proves who you are. Whether we help out a person in dire need or in some kind of tribulation will be a free choice.

By reading about Job, one of God's favorite people ever, go through some of the worst shit imaginable, we understand, with absolute certainty, that God is not going to stop the shit happening to us... and that yet we will still need to uphold our Faith and do the right thing (something re-emphasized later with Jesus). But God is a rewarder... he gave back to Job more than he ever had. But the true gifts given are not in this life... I pray often God does not reward me here in this temporary life, but saves it for later, when it'll last forever.

 

[Batmonk]

I see how you could come to that conclusion that God is the bad guy. Job's friends told him it was God that did all this to him, so he should just "curse God and die." But they missed the point that the created have no business telling God what to do. Life comes and goes, God is the eternal - it's all about Him. Whether I bring things on myself or others, or if shit happens for no reason at all, God is not diminished in the least. Faith is believing that, which is why Job was admired.

 

[android]

Then why did he have to prove it to anyone else...and screw over what he would consider to be a good man in the process? Thank Jesus that God doesn't do anti-peer pressure drug ads.

It's more about proving Satan wrong. Job knew he wouldn't lose faith, God knew he wouldn't lose faith, only Satan believed he could turn Job as he turn Adam and Eve away from God. In the end Job proved faithful despite having everything put against him, without God steping in and helping him out, regardless of the fact that he wanted to. If God did step in Satan could just say "See I told you I could break him (or you would step in). I was right to rebel against you. Even the most faithful man on earth turned away from you." In the end Job was rewarded for his faithfulness, even though he didn't do it to be rewarded. We see a simular thing happen in Satan's challenges to Jesus. Satan tempts him in various ways and he proves himself faithful.

 

[DCharlie]

so, lets get this straight here...

Satan can intervene in human affairs to fuck peoples lives up...

... but God can't (?) and won't (?) - assumingly to give us free will?... if so, why (as the creator of everything) did he give SATAN OF ALL FUCKING PEOPLE free will to go and do whatever he please in human affairs?

what sort of landlord is God???

 

[shpankey]

You answer your own question. God gives free will, otherwise he's just a puppet master. Nothing would be real.

Keep in mind though, we can never truely comprehend, in the here and now anyhow, God's mind. Only He knows all the answers.. and only He knows why He does what He does. Which is why God told Job what He told him in the end of the story.

 

[DCharlie]

"Keep in mind though, we can never truely comprehend, in the here and now anyhow, God's mind. Only He knows all the answers.. and only He knows why He does what He does. Which is why God told Job what He told him in the end of the story."

okay, so i'll re-ask the question :

How have we got free will if Satan can interveen?

 

[shpankey]

what do you mean?

 

[Fresh Prince]

Doesn't Satan obey God?

 

[android]

so, lets get this straight here...

Satan can intervene in human affairs to fuck peoples lives up...

... but God can't (?) and won't (?) - assumingly to give us free will?... if so, why (as the creator of everything) did he give SATAN OF ALL FUCKING PEOPLE free will to go and do whatever he please in human affairs?

what sort of landlord is God???

If God killed Satan and all his fellow rebel angels the second they rebelled, it would leave questions. "Why did God kill them right away? Is He afraid of something?" And then there would be further rebellions. In allowing Satan to have run of the farm, God is allowing him to make a fool of himself. He is proving his own rebellion wrong. That's where the Book of Revelation then comes in. It tells of the last days of Satan and his demons and their destruction at the hands of God.

 

[shpankey]

Doesn't Satan obey God?

If Satan obeyed God's wishes, he'd still be in Heaven leading the worship to God.

fun fact?: Satan is God's most visually beautiful creation.

 

[DCharlie]

"what do you mean?"

free will is dependent on having nothing outside controlling us.
As Satan obviously has the ability to change peoples lives, then how do we have free will?

And more importantly, why does God allow him to do what he wants?

 

[Fresh Prince]

If Satan obeyed God's wishes, he'd still be in Heaven leading the worship to God.

fun fact?: Satan is God's most visually beautiful creation.

Well God is omnipetant- God has stopped Satan for the past 2000 years from doing whatever he wants to do. Satan is ultimately at the beg and call of God.

 

[shpankey]

free will is dependent on having nothing outside controlling us.
As Satan obviously has the ability to change peoples lives, then how do we have free will?

God has given you free will from Him. If someone else steps in and prevents your will, that is on them, not God.

And more importantly, why does God allow him to do what he wants?

I don't know for sure... we can only surmise God's intentions... but I will say God did give Satan dominion over the air, which is to say the whole earth I guess. Why? I would guess it allows us to prove, without a doubt... who we are, when we face our difficult tribulations and choices in life (to believe or not). For if there were no Satan to tempt us away from God, or get us to not believe, then it would be something like this...

Do you, human, believe in Me?
a.) Yes

...and there wouldn't be another option. I guess Satan provides that option maybe? I can't say. I will only say, as a believer, you will actually have to believe in things you won't know or can't prove to yourself. This is where, undoubtedly, unbelievers take issue. For me, I don't have an issue with it, because when I set my mind on God creating everything that is, I understand that I could never truely fathom everything anyhow. At least not in this manifestation.

 

[DCharlie]

"...and there wouldn't be another option. I guess Satan provides that option maybe? I can't say. I will only say, as a believer, you will actually have to believe in things you won't know or can't prove to yourself. This is where, undoubtedly, unbelievers take issue."

just to be clear, i was raised as a Roman Catholic, but anyways...

i think what gets me a lot about religion is that there is a lot of mystery and there is a lot of "OMGWTFBBQ" things in religion, but people try to rationalize and explain everything to put god in a good light at all times.

And the Job story just strikes me as one of those times where it just sounds like god is being a bit of a douche to prove a point (and not for the first time).

 

[shpankey]

I can certainly understand that.

 

[Jdw40223]

just to be clear, i was raised as a Roman Catholic, but anyways...

i think what gets me a lot about religion is that there is a lot of mystery and there is a lot of "OMGWTFBBQ" things in religion, but people try to rationalize and explain everything to put god in a good light at all times.

And the Job story just strikes me as one of those times where it just sounds like god is being a bit of a douche to prove a point (and not for the first time).

Seems so, But you cant understand life, no one can. That's a mystery whether you believe in God or not. But as Shpankey just mentioned... Satan had free will to do what he wishes.. just like anybody/anything can change your life in ANY given day. ANd it happens all the time, even if you believe in GOd or not. It happens, like mama always said. Whether its the good or bad. The whole point of Job was that he had faith in 'what he was doing', even when he went through the hard times and good times. God wasn't 'betting' on Job, he knew job had faith, that's all that mattered. Just as in life, if you have faith, you make it through the bad times, if you dont have faith, somethings always wrong. Faith doesn't necessarily mean "christianity". Kinda like believe in yer damn self. do somen.

When something GOOD happens to an individual, ppl do thank god. weird.

 

[Dice]

As far as I can tell, this is the point of Job:

Job 35
1 Then Elihu said:
2 "Do you think this is just?
You say, 'I will be cleared by God.'
3 Yet you ask him, 'What profit is it to me,
and what do I gain by not sinning?'
4 "I would like to reply to you
and to your friends with you.

5 Look up at the heavens and see;
gaze at the clouds so high above you.
6 If you sin, how does that affect him?
If your sins are many, what does that do to him?
7 If you are righteous, what do you give to him,
or what does he receive from your hand?
8 Your wickedness affects only a man like yourself,
and your righteousness only the sons of men.

9 "Men cry out under a load of oppression;
they plead for relief from the arm of the powerful.
10 But no one says, 'Where is God my Maker,
who gives songs in the night,
11 who teaches more to us than to the beasts of the earth
and makes us wiser than the birds of the air?'
12 He does not answer when men cry out
because of the arrogance of the wicked.
13 Indeed, God does not listen to their empty plea;
the Almighty pays no attention to it.

14 How much less, then, will he listen
when you say that you do not see him,
that your case is before him
and you must wait for him,
15 and further, that his anger never punishes
and he does not take the least notice of wickedness.
16 So Job opens his mouth with empty talk;
without knowledge he multiplies words."

People act like when they do good they're doing God a favor, but they're not. The fact is that God is God, completely untouchable. Whether you accept him or reject him, live for good or live for evil, it only affects you and the people around you. But remember God is the one who gives you everything you have, as Elihu says later on if God were to hold his breath everyone would die of suffocation.

Even in the crappiest situation you can possibly be in, any little bit of good or comfort you have is from God. But so often people don't give God any mind, when things are good they forget him, and even with a faithful man (like Job) when things go bad they lose sight and accuse God and wonder what the point of their faithfulness was.

The point is that it's not for God's benefit that you do good, it's not to earn a happy life that you do good. God is the judge, yes, and he will be impartial when he deals out justice, but you're not doing good for him. You are to live in righteousness because it is the right thing to do, it is how God designed the world to work. And you are to be faithful to God not for what he does or does not give you but because he is God, your maker and sustainer of life.

Job 36
15 But those who suffer he delivers in their suffering;
he speaks to them in their affliction.
16 "He is wooing you from the jaws of distress
to a spacious place free from restriction,
to the comfort of your table laden with choice food.

The comfort wasn't the blessings we see Job receive at the end of the book, it's a grace-based relationship. The spacious place free of restriction because doing good is not about impressing God or trying to make the cut, but doing what is good because it is good, and drawing near to God because he is your maker and sustainer of life, not anything or anyone on earth.

God is the source of life and all that is good, so if you reject him he wouldn't even need to send you to hell for you to be in it. That's the idea, God didn't just put us on the world and set it spinning, but every moment we rely on him whether we realize it or not. It's about living according to how he made us, fully dependent on him rather than anything of earth, and living righteously.

The book of Job is written for people whose minds are stuck in earthly ways of thought, for people who look at God as they would look at their earthly father or king, for people who have no mind for the spiritual realm or why they even desire certain things in the first place--It's to break man out of religious pride and bring him into true faith and humility before God.

 

[tedtropy]

Dice, you obviously put a lot of thought into your response and appreciate it. Citing passages along with your descriptions was particularly helpful and helps me to better understand the meaning of the book as part of the context of the Old Testament as a whole. I don't necessarily agree with the message it is trying to portray, but I appreciate your clarification of it...

 

[NohWun]

Why is the story of Job supposed to be inspirational?

I think the message is:

No matter how much your life sucks now, it can always suck worse.

 

[Jim Bowie]

so, lets get this straight here...

Satan can intervene in human affairs to fuck peoples lives up...

... but God can't (?) and won't (?) - assumingly to give us free will?... if so, why (as the creator of everything) did he give SATAN OF ALL FUCKING PEOPLE free will to go and do whatever he please in human affairs?

what sort of landlord is God???

I think you've got your facts a bit haywired.

First of all, Satan intervenes in humans affairs not because he's a god, but because he's an angel. There's no law in Christianity that says "Angels can't hang out on Earth and fuck with d00dz." In fact, the accounts of Angels happen in both testaments of the Bible, while appearences of God only appear in the Old testament. That's because God decided that he wanted to do more preaching rather than just appearing to people, and that's where Jesus comes into play... but I'm getting off topic, so I'll digress.

And Satan didn't get the power to mess with humans from God, he basically fought for it. When Lucifer was an angel, which is what he originally was, he thought he could do a better job than God. So he challenged him, and was soundly trounced by God, and banished from Heaven to live on some other plane, which we call Hell. After that, God said NO FREE WILL FOR YOU, ANGELS, and took away their ability to rebel. So, in essence, Satan is the OG of angels; he's got free will.

God's original plan called for free will. He wanted this to be the case, as he basically created all humans to keep himself entertained. Yes, that's right- ants in the ant farm. He wanted to make these humans grow to love him. OR, to hate him. That's the main point- he wanted his pets to love him, for him. What fun is it if your pets HAVE to love you? Imagine you have a cat. A robot cat. You program him to meow, sleep, purr, and be totally affectionate towards you. Now, this might be cool for a little bit, but the love that you constantly receive from this robo-cat might feel somewhat fake, right? Same concept with God and humans.

Actually, going back to my original point, God said that he would preach more rather than appear, right? That's another reason why he doesn't meddle- it would be contradictory to God's stated law. I'm sure you've seen Dogma, yes? Well, it's sort of like the Catholic gateway thing- the universe hangs on God being infallible. If God gets proven wrong by his creation, he'll go "Fuck it!!@" and blow up everything. My God is a vengeful God, and also a proud God. So, if he was to start meddling, and some scholar pointed out, "But didn't you say this?", he'd destroy it all on sheer principle and start anew (Infinity is a long time, he can start again with no regrets). He knows this, so He decides to watch and see.

Theology is interesting, huh?

 

[DDayton]

I believe the concept is that angels exist outside the limits of time -- in the eternal, as it were. Thus, they can't "change their minds" as change requires time. They have free will, but choose to do good or evil eternally as part of their very nature... but they can interact with people inside time.

Devils causing pain on earth doesn't remove your free will any more than a nut down the street shooting through your window does... everyone has the ability to either improve or wreck the world and the lives of others.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I find the inspirational, Christian soap story versions of Job ridiculous. Like most of their interpretations of things. But I still think it's an incredibly powerful story and one of my favorite bible tales. Here's a man who's life is ripped asunder to prove a wager between a deity and one of his minions gone astray. Seriously, look at what this man goes through in his life. He isn't doing anything wrong, and he is smashed on the deity's anvil to prove a point. Then, his "friends" show up and like people tend to do, give him crocodile tear comfort and shitty counsel. When he finally gets a chance in his suffering to question his god, God basically says to him, "Who the fuck are you?!?! You don't have the right to question me! But you helped me win the bet you had no knowledge of so here are some wives and camels and riches again. Go forth." It's a great tale showing the seeming meaninglessness of suffering, and the reward of fortitude in its teeth. There is no great compassion or love shown here...merely a defense of the absurdity of pain and luck and a recommendation of humility in the face of tragedy.

 

[Meier]

Job is the only lengthy book of the Bible I read fully through when I used to go to church and all that. It's a pretty amazing story.

 

[borghe]

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