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Why Skype and a TV Tuner Could Be Killer Apps

Mihos

Gold Member
Because if you're a 16 year-old living at home, it's an easy hook to sell your parents on the next generation Xbox by convincing them that the entire family can call grandma every night and say goodnight. I think it's even a compelling reason to buy a console for grandma, so she can video chat with her grandkids, and it conveniently gives the 16 year-old something to do when he's forced to visit grandma.

Two things wrong with this part:

1. you are talking about selling this to a generation that puts tape over their laptop camera because they are afraid of catching a computer virus

2. You are way underestimating the lengths that Americans will go through to avoid putting on pants when home alone gaming. No one needs to see me pantless, with bed head, and a pizza box on my stomach while playing Halo. My wife isn't going to put on makeup incase someone calls either. I would put forward right now that everyone who wants to video chat already does it, and for the people who are using it occasionally (like myself) are using it to show things around the house that a fixed camera just don't do.
 

Haint

Member
I don't see the TV subscription thing happening that way. It is well known that Sony, Apple, and MS have all been trying to offer such a service but been blocked at every step by the ISPs and Cable Providers. Why are things going to change now? I certainly don't see ISPs allowing other cable providers to stream over their networks.

I do see cable companies offering the next Xbox as a set top box option for their existing or new customers with access to plenty of OnDemand and live TV and an easy Kinect interface ("Xbox record the Lakers game tomorrow").

IPTV is without a doubt dead in the water, I have no idea why he thinks this is even remotely possible in America. The best case for TV service is Cable Card or Tru2way support (most likely as an optional dongle), or HDMI/Component pass through of your current tuning devices, supplemented by some level of Slingbox 500 like streaming functionality and more fleshed out WiiTV-style novelties.
 

Alx

Member
2. You are way underestimating the lengths that Americans will go through to avoid putting on pants when home alone gaming. No one needs to see me pantless, with bed head, and a pizza box on my stomach while playing Halo. My wife isn't going to put on makeup incase someone calls either.

Using the video stream is not a requirement, you don't have to use the camera if you don't want to.
 

Dali

Member
I don't think Skype will be a big deal even with Pachter's explanation. No one wants their TV and console on lock while gram gram and mom or mom and little Suzy college freshman gab about how cute Bradley Cooper is. Laptops work fine and consoles aren't all that much more simple to operate in this day and age.

As for TV... well it sounds nice, but no one is going to want to pay the kind of money he's talking about on a monthly basis as long as Netflix exists for 8 bucks.
 
They will maybe help in the US (Which is already Xbox land). But those apps will not sell a console around the world.

I expect the next xbox to be a US only success. If that.
 
Why Skype and a TV Tuner Could Be Killer Apps

Thank you for taking the time to flesh out your opinion for us, I appreciate the effort that a post like that takes.

It doesn't mean that I agree with you though.

I just don't see Skype as anything like a killer app. First as I've stated previously it's already available on just about every platform that matters. Second, uninformed consumers tend to make purchasing decisions on price alone because they don't know or understand the finer details. I don't expect the Nextbox to be the cheapest platform to run Skype on sale, so it's lost out on the clueless bargain hunter demographic. Third, if Grandma can't manage to work Skype on her phone/ iPad/ laptop then there's no way she'll be able to work a next-gen machine with their horrible media UI.

The TV subscription thing I think will be a non-starter, I find it hard to believe that it will gain traction unless the content is fantastic (the majority of TV is not) and the price is very very competitive. People will watch any old garbage so the content won't be that much of a problem. However Microsoft is very shrewd and I expect them to price what the market will bare rather than hitting it out of that park with a good price. I can't imagine that the content providers will be willing to undercut their own prices on the Nextbox for content that they peddle elsewhere at a premium. So the content cost is going to be on par with elsewhere. However, I think that this has the best chance of driving adoption but it would require Microsoft really getting their act together and making the correct decisions for a change in pursuit of users to grow the user base rather than dollars to appease the shareholders.
 

Miletius

Member
In my presentation at SXSW on Saturday night, I picked Microsoft to win next generation because I believe that they will include Skype and a TV tuner in the next Xbox. They have told me nothing, but the progression from Kinect, to voice search through Bing, to the integration of smart glass has led me to consistently "predict" that the next generation Xbox will have a TV tuner built in. The purchase of Skype for $11.5 billion in 2011 was done for a reason, and the fact that Kinect has a camera makes integration of Skype into the next Xbox a logical progression.

Why are either killer apps?

Skype first--My detractors on this site (and there are many of them) are quick to point out that Skype is available on many devices, including just about any laptop with a built-in camera and any smart phone or tablet. What they miss is that Skype isn't generally available with a wide-angle camera lens, isn't generally available in the living room, and isn't generally very easy for grandma to use. The next generation Xbox cures all of these issues, and lets anybody call anyone else by merely talking to their always connected Xbox. Again, I don't KNOW that this is going to happen, but it makes a lot of sense that it will. Why is that a killer app? Because if you're a 16 year-old living at home, it's an easy hook to sell your parents on the next generation Xbox by convincing them that the entire family can call grandma every night and say goodnight. I think it's even a compelling reason to buy a console for grandma, so she can video chat with her grandkids, and it conveniently gives the 16 year-old something to do when he's forced to visit grandma. I don't know for sure WHY Microsoft bought Skype, but this seems as logical a reason as any. I think that living room to any phone globally is a lot easier than PC to phone, and I think that people with families overseas or far away will be interested in making calls easily (and cheaply) via Skype if the service is included in a plug and play device like the next Xbox.

OK, that was the easy part. The TV side takes a bit more imagination.

Adding a TV tuner isn't really that big of a deal. However, the WAY the TV signal is delivered is a big deal. If Microsoft were to sign with one or more cable providers, the signal would not come over cable or satellite; instead, it would come over the Internet. Internet service providers are an impediment to this working (will discuss below), but if data cap issues are set aside for the moment, a cable company would be able to offer IPTV beyond their FCC-regulated region. That means that consumers could get any cable TV service in any jurisdiction (yes, this is U.S.-centric, but bear with me for a minute). Right now, Comcast has around half of U.S. households who subscribe to cable or satellite; if they had no territorial limitations, they could go for all households. That is meaningful to them, and to the guys who they plan to take market share from, so it is only a matter of time before everyone will sign up with Microsoft for this, assuming I'm right. I've been saying this for close to two years, and I think the technology has evolved to the point where this can happen with the next console.

Assuming I'm right, there are two advantages to the cable companies: first, the Xbox replaces the cable box (or at least, the primary box); and second, the cable company can sell service outside of its regulated area, since it will be selling IPTV. Choice is good for consumers, so the government will favor this outcome. It's an open question whether Microsoft can route the TV signal from the Xbox to other televisions in the same household wirelessly, but it seems that they could do so by attaching some sort of dongle to the other television, and trick the TV into thinking it was connected to a cable box. The cable company saves capital (no cable boxes to build), operating expense (no installation or service call), and ultimately can attract more customers.

The trick to this working is to get the ISPs to lift data caps. That's a tall order, but for those of you old enough to remember, cellular service used to work the same way as cable television worked, with carriers assigned certain regions. That all changed a few years ago, and roaming charges evaporated as if by magic. In order for that to happen, the carriers had to agree to carry one another's service on their proprietary networks. It worked, and I think something similar will happen with ISPs if cable television becomes IPTV. The good news for ISPs is that IPTV will drive even greater adoption of broadband, and will make broadband more essential, so I think that if the next generation Xbox is an IPTV tuner, we'll see a lot of happy cable companies and ISPs.

Why is this a killer app? Because television can go from a static delivery with a handful of programs on demand to a fully on-demand experience. If people are willing to pay, there is no reason why every episode of every TV show ever broadcast couldn't be pulled up and viewed on demand. This can absolutely happen with IPTV, and if a cable company has the rights to the programming, it is likely to happen.

The essential component of all of this is that the cable company sees the potential to sign up its customers to a long-term, high subscription price contract. This is similar to what mobile phone carriers saw when smart phones debuted, where data plans averaged $100 per month, and users got a subsidized smart phone in exchange for a two-year contract. I think we'll see the same thing with the next Xbox (if I'm right about the TV tuner): a subsidized console in exchange for a two-year cable TV contract. Other potential sources of subsidies are Microsoft themselves (subsidized console for a two-year subscription to XBL, at $20 - 30/month but including IPTV, XBL Gold and Skype for free) and ISPs (maybe a two-year broadband contract at $60/month or more).

Again, the 16 year-old who talks his parents into extending their current cable TV subscription or their broadband subscription for two years will end up with a cheap console. That makes Microsoft the favorite (for now), in my view.

Some of you asked why I had "predictions" now, instead of waiting for all of the details on pricing, features, specs and launch date to be announced? The answer is that SXSW was last weekend, and I had to write something. I may be wrong, but it's my best thinking as of now. Once we learn the details of the next Xbox, I'll modify my "predictions".

Hope that helps some of you to understand my madness a bit better.

I guess the 1 big thing that comes to mind is if Microsoft will continue to put the attractive services behind the Xbox Live Gold paywall. If so, then I don't think the consumer will bite. Most are already paying a decent amount of dollars at to the cable company for TV and broadband. Put Skype and TV behind that wall and the device is suddenly a lot less attractive to the mom and pop you mention.

If, on the other hand, Xbox seeks alternative revenue sources for these offerings I could see it being a hit. They could keep Gold as a value service for multi-player gaming and premium content (maybe for Hulu and Netflix, although I doubt they would let cable through and not Netflix and Hulu).

Generally I agree with your premise but I think the devil is in the details.
 

Lynn616

Member
While I am watching TV you would receive an overlay message that says you have a call. Without lifting a finger you could speak to answer the call and be instantly in a video chat on your TV. Super convenient and easy. Same would go for game invites.
 
It's all quite plausible, but I have a few reservations about it (and about Microsoft trying to sell the Xbox as a home media device in general):

First, you have to make the console appeal to people who want to play games. If I look at the thing's specs and decide it isn't worth my money, my wife isn't going to decide to buy it on her own. Pretty much the only way one of these will end up in the house is if a gamer is interested, because non-gamers will say "why would I spend $400 plus a subscription (Xbox Live, cable subscription, whatever) on something when I already have a cable box?" Having a theoretical full catalog of shows is cool, and a potential selling point, but probably not worth that huge of an investment to most people, and that's even assuming the content owners are willing to make everything available at any time - which they almost assuredly wouldn't be. They want to get paid for their content.

Second, I'm all for freedom of choice, but if they partner with Comcast to offer this over the internet, other companies (like Time Warner) will flip their shit because not only are they potentially losing a cable customer - they're also the providers of the internet that are being used by a competitor.

As for Skype, see point one above. It's cool, but my mom isn't going to drop that kind of money on this to use Skype. I believe the console has to appeal to gamers to get the sort of significant traction to make these sorts of things worthwhile, and if they're at E3 and other events touting their system as this multimedia hub rather than showing cool games, I don't think gamers are going to bite. I think the significant usage the 360 and PS3 get as multimedia devices is a side effect of them being in a lot of homes as a game console. You have to sell the thing as a game console first and add in the multimedia stuff to sweeten the deal.
 

Frillen

Member
The thing with Skype is that it's so easily accessible on other devices, that no matter how perfectly Microsoft make the upcoming Skype intergration on Durango, it won't stand out.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Also, for anyone with an older relative, they'll understand that tying communication to one point in a house is a bad idea. Portable communication is a far better idea for older people - be it a cordless phone vs a wired one for voice calls, or a smart device vs a fixed TV for video calls (if that is to become 'a thing').

Sorry to harp on on the grandma thing, but it really made me wonder how much 'analysis' was done here ;) :)

Smartglass that feed to another device with a camera when necessary.
 

DEADEVIL

Member
Big fan of the Pachster and how his detractors literally lose their minds over his existance.

With that said, in my personal opinion, it would take quite a few variables for either Skype or the TV tuner to make a huge impact on the next gen.

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SKYPE:

The Xbox vision cam and later Kinect both have the ability to connect living rooms and PC through your MSN acount.

The Skype difference is that many of us like myself also use SKype literally make phone calls around the world for a few bucks a month (I think my monthly fee is $3.99).

Mike is right in that if MS leverages the call angle for Skype through the living room it could be big.

I've already used my 360 personally to share holidays and special occasions through both the vision and Kinect with my family across the country.

But, if MS leverages that through Skype/Nextbox you are literally connected via voice or cam to the entire world from the couch in your living room, MS does have a selling point. Could be huge for people who travel alot or even military members.

If I was MS, I'd bring back the ability to watch movies with other members on the Xbox. But, leverage Skype so you could do the picture-in-picture while watching said film ala Uno on XBLA. That alone could be a killer app alone for both parents and teens. Could you even imagine, a family member who is dislocated with their children watching the latest kid movie with their kids, while connected via Xbox or even their Laptop or tablet?

If done right, this goes well beyond what devices are doing now.

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TV Tuner

This is where Mikey P. hit it out the box. But, I believe there would need to be some clarification that would make the average gamer see the benefits of this proposed feature.

What many don't know is you can watch cable right now from your 360. I do it all the time. I have a FIOS account and simply downloaded the app. The App automatically verified that my internet was through FIOS and I watch my favorite channels through the 360 itself. I never use the feature, but you can even change the channel with Kinect. I just use the controller.

Why is this an advantage? My cable box is downstairs in my Living room. But instead of having to rent additional boxes to watch cable upstairs, I simply use my 360 instead.

My point is Pachter hasnt acknowledged that MS doesnt need a TV tuner inside the NextBox at all to pul this off. The current 360 not only has the same capability, it's actually being used right now as we speak.

But, I believe that Pachter is truly on to something that no one before him has acknowledged.

If MS literally partner with a company like Xfinity or Fios that sells a subsidised SKU of the Nextbox as their 'Cable box' this could potentially be bigger than any of us imagine.

If you are talking this rumored SKU that includes a DVR and doesnt have a drive, offered 'free' with your New Cable/Xbox Live account, we are talking a console that does numbers that none of us have ever seen, because there is no precedence.

NOW, your talking about a console in living rooms that people would only be purchasing games digitally. No used games would apply to this SKU only. you would still have the normal SKU that would have a drive and used games. This would make everyone happy.
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At the end the day, the idea of this is definately plausible and alot of crow will be eaten if Mr. Pach Attack is correct and MS pulls this off.

On the other hand, imagine if Nintendo followed the now infamous 'Wii-HD' model that Pachster predicted? They would be swimming in money right now, as we ALL would own one and the next Wii could have come shortly AFTER the current crop of next gen consoles, with better specs and games right at launch.

But I guess we will never know.
 

Raide

Member
The thing with Skype is that it's so easily accessible on other devices, that no matter how perfectly Microsoft make the upcoming Skype intergration on Durango, it won't stand out.

They own Skye, so how about a version of Skype with features that all the other version will never get?
 

Doodis

Member
I like you, Pachter. And I actually agreed with your two predictions initially, but after some thought, I'm not so sure now. A lot of people have jumped in on this already, but here's my two cents:

1) Skype: I have no doubt that this will be included in the system, but like many others, I don't see it as a system seller. You can already video conference today on the Xbox through Kinect, but you don't hear about this being a widely used feature or a reason alone to purchase an Xbox/Kinect. Slapping the Skype name on the function doesn't seem to me like it will change anything that much. And as we've heard from others, Skype is readily available in the home through other devices, most of which are easier to use.

2) TV tuner: Seems like it would be a good feature for Microsoft to offer, but I find it unlikely simply because of the difficult task it would be to get cable providers on board. Also, such a feature would take a lot of work planning/developing/implementing with cable companies. Surely we would have gotten some leaked information from someone working somewhere along the line of such a large undertaking. Microsoft has kept a tight lid on the next Xbox because it has kept those working on it in a silo. This is conjecture, but if a TV tuner were in the works, there would be a huge potential for that information to leak, considering all the folks that would be privy to the information.

Alas, like you, I have no idea what will really happen. You could be 100% right. Time will tell.
 
1) You don't need a TV tuner for IPTV. X360 and PS3 could do IPTV tomorrow if the right app came out. Technically they already do--it's called Netflix. But it's exactly the same process as serving Netflix, just a different API and network infrastructure.

Think of this from a cable channel's perspective. They can't put their highest value content like a current season of Madmen or Game of Thrones on Netflix because it would would destroy their advertising revenue stream as well as subscription fees. Microsoft can keep both of those sources of income intact as well as provide a unified hardware and software solution.

The only problem is what do providers like Comcast stand to gain by handing over the provider reigns over to Microsoft? Michael Pachter is arguing they can obtain larger user bases by going around FCC market regulations. However, once we start accessing our TV via internet both the consumer and the channels are going to start asking "Why do we even need providers anymore?" Much like iTunes cut the record companies out of the loop Microsoft or Apple could make satellite and cable tv providers irrelevant.

In other words I don't think Comcast is going to be on board with this.
 

Apdiddy

Member
Based on Pachter's reasoning for Microsoft including Skype and IPTV/tv tuner with their next Xbox, I could see there being even less of a focus on gaming and first party exclusives. All Microsoft has to do starting out is release Halo 5 & 6, have the Call of Duty series be Xbox exclusive, have exclusive content with Destiny and have Madden/FIFA/EA Sports games be Xbox exclusive and that would be it.

For whatever reason, I can see cable companies still being extremely restrictive on bandwidth caps, Microsoft or not. My ISP already gets mad at me for using Netflix and having someone work from home.
 

Raide

Member
Those features will mostly be gimmicks though, I would assume.



Possible uses.

In-game voice-chat between Skype users and people playing games or using their Windows Phone? Could be all video, or a mix of Video, voice and text. Throw in sharing between those devices as well.

Being able to use Skype to dictate something on you 720/Windows Phone and having it Sync to your Windows PC.

Using Skype on your Windows Phone to queue something up for your 720 Netflix or IPTV.

Just some crazy ideas I came up with in a minute or two.
 

Frillen

Member
Possible uses.

In-game voice-chat between Skype users and people playing games or using their Windows Phone? Could be all video, or a mix of Video, voice and text. Throw in sharing between those devices as well.

Being able to use Skype to dictate something on you 720/Windows Phone and having it Sync to your Windows PC.

Using Skype on your Windows Phone to queue something up for your 720 Netflix or IPTV.

Just some crazy ideas I came up with in a minute or two.

Problem is that no one buy Windows Phones.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
I'm really not the target audience if these are killer-apps. I hate to communicate via the web. I hate chatting. A phone call or texting, please. Nothing else. Even my Facebook-chat is disabled.

I don't watch TV. I really dig the on demand services like HBO Nordic and Netflix and subsribe to both and intend to for a really long while. Being locked down to certain times and days is something I just don't see myself doing ever again. That's no way to live a life.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Nuh, I just don't buy it. People already have Skype on every device they own which has a battery, and I'd much rather stick with Hulu+ and Netflix instead of an internal tuner to get shitty (really, really shitty) Australia TV.

Do you still need Xbox Gold just to use Netflix on Xbox?
 
This will honestly all come down to marketing IMO.

If Microsoft can sell this thing as the NEXT LEVEL of television interaction, or pitch skype as something that can "bring families together in the living room", then sure skype and a television tuner could be killer apps. I don't think its the functionality that sells the system, its the concepts that people buy.

Most peoples buying habits are rarely based on research, they are based on impulse, and a successful marketing campaign.
 

coldfoot

Banned
Possible uses.

In-game voice-chat between Skype users and people playing games or using their Windows Phone? Could be all video, or a mix of Video, voice and text. Throw in sharing between those devices as well.

Being able to use Skype to dictate something on you 720/Windows Phone and having it Sync to your Windows PC.

Using Skype on your Windows Phone to queue something up for your 720 Netflix or IPTV.

Just some crazy ideas I came up with in a minute or two.

1. Videoconferencing while gaming is not going to be mainstream anytime soon, and the PS4 has actual sharing features in the OS as well. Plus why would you only limit usage to 2% of the market? iPhones and Android can run Skype as well.

2. Why do you need Skype to dictate anything to your console or PC? All you need is a microphone and some voice recognition software.

3. Again, Skype doesn't do queueing, it's not designed for that. That would be an OS feature, and already possible with the Smartglass app for iOS/WP on the 360. Doesn't seem to be lighting the world on fire.
 

michaelpachter

He speaks, and we freak
OK, some of you seem to get what I mean, others are sort of thick skulled and thin skinned.

I don't mean that the Xbox next will actually tune to TV broadcast over the airwaves. Rather, I mean that the TV signal will be delivered over the Internet to the Xbox, which will decode it and determine if the recipient has permission to view it. That should work much like Netflix works now, with a separate interface through the console that is similar to (but different from) the Netflix interface on the Internet.

What many of you are missing is that there are 80 million cable and satellite TV households in the U.S., and over 100 million combined Xbox 360, PS3 and Wiis sold through. My guess is that 60 - 70 million of these TV households have a current generation console--that is the target market. If Microsoft can convince people who already have a cable TV subscription to buy a subsidized Xbox next because it allows them to get all TV they already get, plus lots more on demand, all without a cable box, I think that is a killer app.

I don't know much about the Canadian TV market, but suffice to say that the head guy at Xbox, Don Mattrick, lives in Vancouver. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the first country beyond the U.S. that has a cable deal. Next is likely the UK, and again, I don't know the rules, but the point is that whomever you currently pay for television service cannot take issue with the Xbox providing that service and eliminating the need for a cable box. Again, in the U.S., that means that geographic restrictions can be overcome, so that there will be more competition. That's a good thing. It also means that more people will want/need broadband, so that will drive prices for broadband lower.

On the Skype side, I don't mean that all conversations have to be video chat. Skype can call any phone, or any PC, or any tablet, and if integrated into the Xbox next, can call any of those as well. If Microsoft decides to integrate this into the next Xbox, they can offer a (likely expensive) Xbox Live Gold subscription that lets members call any phone anywhere, possibly for one flat monthly fee. If it's video, great, but if it's Xbox next to a phone 10,000 miles away, that's great too.

As far as "killer app", I mean that games will ultimately decide why gamers will pick one console over the other, but Skype and IPTV will be a selling point for the other users in the household. If you're single and play games, you may not care. If you're a father, son, daughter, brother or sister in a household, you care about convincing mom why this makes sense. Mom wants you to talk to grandma.

For the record, Batfans, my grandparents are dead, too, and so is my father. But I still like my kids to talk to my mom . . .
 

Fusebox

Banned
These work for the US customers but not PAL customers IMO

I can see why the TV might not work in EU/AU but Skype is just Skype.

MS have been charging people for years just to use Netflix on 360, the idea that they're gonna turn around from being the worst media centre to the best because of a TV tuner is laughable at best.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Skype first--My detractors on this site (and there are many of them) are quick to point out that Skype is available on many devices, including just about any laptop with a built-in camera and any smart phone or tablet. What they miss is that Skype isn't generally available with a wide-angle camera lens, isn't generally available in the living room, and isn't generally very easy for grandma to use. The next generation Xbox cures all of these issues, and lets anybody call anyone else by merely talking to their always connected Xbox.

...If they have X-box Live Gold like Netflix/et. al. requires. Which means it won't be a "killer app" for the smarter consumers at large, but those that don't care/are addicted to X-box Live? Maybe

As for the TV Tuner: Pipedream. ISP/Cable companies are NEVER going to work together or work with Microsoft on that. Bandwidth simply isn't there, either. Until ISP's figure out a way to solve the Netflix Bandwidth issues streaming TV to EVERYONE that wants that isn't going to happen.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
The thing is the TV thing won't go well in Europe or at least Germany ( I based this off the current European Xbox Live market difference to the US stuff) .


And yes Skype would be definately something really cool, but I don't see Microsoft winning if some of the rumours are true.




I was quite shockedn when I saw who was the OP
KuGsj.gif
 

Lunar15

Member
In all honesty, I think these are safe predictions based on what we know so far. Everything said at SXSW was pretty reasonable.

I think Skype "could" be big, if there's a marketing push behind it. If not, I think it will fall by the wayside like a lot of other things that were touted for the 360. The TV-Tuner is by far the biggest stretch, and there would have to be something significant coming out of Microsoft's future announcements for it to be a viable selling point.

Also, while GAF loves to use the phrase "winning", I think it's somewhat crude. A professional should say that "these actions could have this effect on console A and this effect on console B". I understand it makes for a better SXSW presentation, but overall it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I don't understand. You yourself barely admit to knowing the current situation of Skype, not even aware of having used it, who currently owns it, you just learned it's on Vita, and you are giving him a hats off for an "elaborate" explanation - by what standard, length of OP?

I am giving him a hats off for thoroughly explaining his point of view in a way that demands respect, flying in the face of all the one sentence do-nothings who don't even bother to try to respond to any issues being raised. It is not about agreeing with a person. It is about being able to respect them even when you disagree. That is the mark of a good commentator/critic/poster, etc.

Also, was running the "screw the Pachter-haters" commentary necessary? You risk trivializing the efforts of people who are legitimately commenting on his opinions by becoming the opposite of the people who you want to criticize. I mean, whatever works for you is great, but I guess it just seems odd that you are praising him without actually understanding the situation or checking his facts (11.5 billion acquisition was actually 8.5 billion as an example)

Absolutely. Because I wasn't saying 'screw the Pachter-haters', and of course you know that and are simply choosing to pretend you don't:

Amir0x said:
All of the people in this topic who for the life of them cannot focus on what he is saying and keep going on about 'why is he an analyst' or whatever, all I can do is smh.

I was specifically saying screw the people refusing to comment on what he is SAYING and instead focus on pathetic one sentence admonitions about his quality as an analyst. The distinction is clear; people who put effort into their responses matter, people who don't are worth less than shit. It's a simple distinction. You'll note I hardly agreed with anything in Michael Pachter's assessment and detailed my reasons why.
 

Kumo

Member
I thought Microsoft mostly used Skype for voice chat during multiplayer gameplay. They probably bought Skype so everyone has to go through them first if they want to use the same technology.
 

JohnsonUT

Member
The IPTV service model is already possible on any device. It can be done on the 360, the PS3, iPads, etc. Nothing requires specific hardware. Also, ISPs, cable companies, and content providers have already figured out how they are going to deal with the threat of the internet for now. (This is all American-centric from now on). They are going to stream their shows over the internet, both live and on demand. But all of this is only accessible if you already have a cable subscription (I am including fios and uverse like services in "cable"). This "solution" defeats the main benefit of internet subscription services for consumers because you are still required to have an old fashioned subscription to time warner or cox or comcast or uverse or verizon. This is how these companies feel they can maintain customers without having to come up with a new business model. Content providers are happy too because they keep getting paid by the large pool of current cable subscribers.

You are also not going to see comcast start competing with time warner. Both companies are happy about their regional, government granted monopolies. They don't want to grow by expanding their area because that requires investment in infrastructure. They would prefer to grow by providing services (phone, internet, VOD) and then increasing the prices of those services (data caps, adding new channels that the customers don't want, raising rates, charging monthly fees for hardware, etc).

We need companies like Netflix, youtube, and amazon start creating more and more original content and for important channels like HBO, ESPN, AMC to offer online subscriptions. I think only once these factors combine will on demand become a universal option for Americans. ANd at that point, any device with a screen will be able to display said services.

How does the American situation compare to that in Europe or Japan?


What many of you are missing is that there are 80 million cable and satellite TV households in the U.S., and over 100 million combined Xbox 360, PS3 and Wiis sold through. My guess is that 60 - 70 million of these TV households have a current generation console--that is the target market. If Microsoft can convince people who already have a cable TV subscription to buy a subsidized Xbox next because it allows them to get all TV they already get, plus lots more on demand, all without a cable box, I think that is a killer app.

Why is this exclusive to Microsoft? This feature is entirely software based and if you are going to provide your content to Microsoft, why would you not also provide it to Apple and Sony? Netflix is on every device. Hulu is on every device. Once you decide to stream to one other hardware device, it is nearly trival to stream to all major hardware devices. Perhaps you are speculating that Microsoft is going to pay a ton of money for this service?
 

Ushae

Banned
While most of us deny it. I do occasionally ask myself the question would I like to get rid of my Sky HD box (in UK) and just have 1 single box there to adhere to all my entertainment needs (games being the top of the list). Yes I really do. I never have time to watch shows on time, I need to either download or use a live service to stream them.

At the moment I have an Apple TV which plays most of my media, it's given me no end of trouble with crashes etc and I'm gagging to replace it. If MS can replace that need AND they can bring their console on par with PS4, or at the very least upto standard so differences aren't huge (I'm happy with 8x VS 10x), much like last gen, I'm 110% game. MS have some big shoes to fill, they may very well do it, they may not.

Pachters reasoning is solid, and he isn't thinking about just one market (us), but a broader market, much like the Wii managed to capture. I think Skype/TV Tuner will either bomb, or explode in popularity and I'm inclined to believe the latter here.
 

SMD

Member
While most of us deny it. I do occasionally ask myself the question would I like to get rid of my Sky HD box (in UK) and just have 1 single box there to adhere to all my entertainment needs (games being the top of the list). Yes I really do. I never have time to watch shows on time, I need to either download or use a live service to stream them.

At the moment I have an Apple TV which plays most of my media, it's given me no end of trouble with crashes etc and I'm gagging to replace it. If MS can replace that need AND they can bring their console on par with PS4, or at the very least upto standard so differences aren't huge (I'm happy with 8x VS 10x), much like last gen, I'm 110% game. MS have some big shoes to fill, they may very well do it, they may not.

Pachters reasoning is solid, and he isn't thinking about just one market (us), but a broader market, much like the Wii managed to capture.

The Wii didn't capture a market that was non-gaming. It brought people into the brand to play games. You're talking about a box to replace your Sky HD box. You want your HD shows to take up space that would normally store games on?

The number of people who want a joint gaming and TV box are a small subset of gamers who watch TV - not a broad, untapped market.
 
As an addendum to my last post, I actually think video calling on the TV is less valuable than on a personal device like a tablet or phone.

Generally speaking my family uses facetime in a way that lets them bring someone into a room with them, so to speak, and let them chat while they're doing other things - very typically I'll facetime my parents while they're watching TV, for example, so we can chat along as if we were all really in the livingroom together. It's a different dynamic than requiring exclusive attention - it's more natural in a way. Conversation ebbs and flows. There's no pressure to keep up a conversation because you're tying up a TV. Or to end a call to free up the big screen.

Now, you can argue that Skype on a console could be put in a little window while people watch something else, but it means audio is sharing the same output channels as the TV, and obscures part of the TV for everyone in the room.

And a neat thing about tablet/phone facetime is being able to 'pick someone up' and bring them into another room when you go make a cup of tea or need some privacy.

All these different dynamics afforded in a personal device context are way more valuable than the value of a wider-angle camera IMO.

This is spot on. Skype like services are a big win on tablets, but nearly useless if they take up the whole TV in the living room. I'm pretty sure Skype (in its current form, maybe they have something new brewing) will have little to no impact in sales of a new console.

As for the TV stuff, I see it as very unlikely.
 

DEADEVIL

Member
OK, some of you seem to get what I mean, others are sort of thick skulled and thin skinned.

I don't mean that the Xbox next will actually tune to TV broadcast over the airwaves. Rather, I mean that the TV signal will be delivered over the Internet to the Xbox, which will decode it and determine if the recipient has permission to view it. That should work much like Netflix works now, with a separate interface through the console that is similar to (but different from) the Netflix interface on the Internet.

What many of you are missing is that there are 80 million cable and satellite TV households in the U.S., and over 100 million combined Xbox 360, PS3 and Wiis sold through. My guess is that 60 - 70 million of these TV households have a current generation console--that is the target market. If Microsoft can convince people who already have a cable TV subscription to buy a subsidized Xbox next because it allows them to get all TV they already get, plus lots more on demand, all without a cable box, I think that is a killer app.

I don't know much about the Canadian TV market, but suffice to say that the head guy at Xbox, Don Mattrick, lives in Vancouver. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the first country beyond the U.S. that has a cable deal. Next is likely the UK, and again, I don't know the rules, but the point is that whomever you currently pay for television service cannot take issue with the Xbox providing that service and eliminating the need for a cable box. Again, in the U.S., that means that geographic restrictions can be overcome, so that there will be more competition. That's a good thing. It also means that more people will want/need broadband, so that will drive prices for broadband lower.

On the Skype side, I don't mean that all conversations have to be video chat. Skype can call any phone, or any PC, or any tablet, and if integrated into the Xbox next, can call any of those as well. If Microsoft decides to integrate this into the next Xbox, they can offer a (likely expensive) Xbox Live Gold subscription that lets members call any phone anywhere, possibly for one flat monthly fee. If it's video, great, but if it's Xbox next to a phone 10,000 miles away, that's great too.

As far as "killer app", I mean that games will ultimately decide why gamers will pick one console over the other, but Skype and IPTV will be a selling point for the other users in the household. If you're single and play games, you may not care. If you're a father, son, daughter, brother or sister in a household, you care about convincing mom why this makes sense. Mom wants you to talk to grandma.

For the record, Batfans, my grandparents are dead, too, and so is my father. But I still like my kids to talk to my mom . . .


Actually, I'm one of the few that concurs if you look at my post a few minutes before you wrote this one.

I'm with you in your belief that if you just had this business model in the US alone, it could potentially increase the hardware numbers beyond what we have seen in any gen for consoles.

Meaning the cable/box SKU doesnt need PAL or any other territory for the NEXTBOX to be a huge success beyond the 360.

Not sure if you are actually catching wind that any of these deals have been solidified or close to fruition, but if you just asked the average consumer if they had the choice between a standard cable box or a console/cable box for a few more dollars there would be a huge percentage that would choose the latter.

Also, if you look at how ridiculously strong the marketing is for cable companies year-long, it definately would get alot of mainstream exposure.
 
I can see why the TV might not work in EU/AU but Skype is just Skype.

MS have been charging people for years just to use Netflix on 360, the idea that they're gonna turn around from being the worst media centre to the best because of a TV tuner is laughable at best.

The market of 2007-2008 is VERY different from the current market we are in now. If Netflix is behind the paywall this go around, I would be extremely shocked
 

coldfoot

Banned
What many of you are missing is that there are 80 million cable and satellite TV households in the U.S., and over 100 million combined Xbox 360, PS3 and Wiis sold through. My guess is that 60 - 70 million of these TV households have a current generation console--that is the target market. If Microsoft can convince people who already have a cable TV subscription to buy a subsidized Xbox next because it allows them to get all TV they already get, plus lots more on demand, all without a cable box, I think that is a killer app.
The 360 already does this for many channels, provided that you already pay for a decent tier of cable TV. Why would you buy a $400 console + and pay a $5 monthly gold fee when you can get a cable box for $10/month from your cable company?
The real killer app is to be able to get on demand TV with a subscription, using your existing internet and not paying $150/month, but only paying for channels you want. That is beyond anyone's grasp at the moment, Apple tried and failed.
 
I really think putting so much weight on Skype no matter which way anyone spins it is crazy.


I don't know. My dad, who does not know how to send an e-mail without calling me for help, uses Skype to talk to my sisters who both live in different cities and his new granddaughter. If I could introduce him to a device that would make it even easier for him to use that service (like Kinect), I could see him jumping on that instantly. This is a guy who will not buy a box to play games or even Blurays or use netflix, but Skype is like "free long distance" to him and there are a ton of older people (mostly parents), who would really love that.
 
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