Support NeoGAF

[schuelma]

Nintendo has been successful despite being "behind" everyone else for a decade. If a lack of support from third parties was going to bring them down, it would have done so a LONG time ago.

The Wii petered out long before Nintendo wanted it to. It did so because Nintendo first party could not make a brand new hit every single year. Nintendo has explicitly stated it wants to do better this generation.

 

[EatChildren]

We may have to agree to disagree then. I originally expected Nintendo to not have an emphasis on GPGPU functionality making it even more of an issue when combining what you are saying with multiple threads on the CPU. I think this puts the Wii U in a better position than before. One of the biggest things Epic touted about UE4 last year was it's ability to scale on mult-core CPUs.

I will agree that it is a plus to have compute programming support on the GPU, and I didn't expect it. I'm glad they do, as it's a smart move. I suppose, at the very least, even if other variables stand in the way of ports, compute programming should increase compatibility with next generation middleware.

When was this confirmed? I remember people speculating about its use in next-gen machines, but never in regards to the Wii U.

The devkit specs leak just prior to their press conference listed compute programming and tessellation support. There's a possibility the devkit leak was inaccurate or the feature set was disabled (which would be stupid and improbable), but the rest of the specs lined up nicely with what I already knew so I assume all of it was true.

 

[bgassassin]

edit. WTF is VMX, anyways?

I wouldn't be able to do a justifiable explanation, so you can check this out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AltiVec

So, it would end up with a less powerfull CPU than Xbox 360 but with a slightly better 400GFLOPs GPU ?

It seems whether it's equal to or less than Xenon is debatable based on what we've heard. But I would definitely believe that means the GPU is better than that.

When was this confirmed? I remember people speculating about its use in next-gen machines, but never in regards to the Wii U.

Just now in the B3D post.

 

[schuelma]

Ok now you guys have lost me.

I'll try a different question- does this mean that Nintendo efforts should look noticeably better than PS360? Give me that!

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I am going to base my WiiU purchase on wsippel and bgassassin's word that this is a better thing...

but seriously could they have not found balance with an even stronger GPU/CPU combo? SMH

secretly hoping they die painfully

wait? GPGPU = Neo Mode 7?

 

[wsippel]

Is it even possible to find a CPU that is less powerfull than Xbox 360 one ? I mean, except ARM and Intel Atom.

Xenon and Cell are actually still blazing fast at single precision vector code. Core i7 levels of fast. At least on paper.

 

[bgassassin]

Ok now you guys have lost me.

I'll try a different question- does this mean that Nintendo efforts should look noticeably better than PS360? Give me that!

Yes. Like I mentioned it reaffirms that judging these launch titles is pointless.

I am going to base my WiiU purchase on wsippel and bgassassin's word that this is a better thing...

but seriously could they have not found balance with an even stronger GPU/CPU combo? SMH

secretly hoping they die painfully

wait? GPGPU = Neo Mode 7?

Improving the CPU would have definitely helped with the early titles that's for sure.

 

[StevieP]

Here was my response:

f the CPU is literally Broadway x 3 @ 45nm + more cache, this would be the case.

If it is, however, something in the 470 line then this wouldn't really be the case. The IBM embedded stuff like the 470S would be deceptive in that matter. Your friend could see a clock rate of "1.6ghz" or "1.8ghz" or something and assume that it's much worse than the 3.2ghz Xenon, but in reality the OOOE 470 line would thrash Xenon in most general purpose code. However, just looking at it on paper (i.e. "holy crap, it's only 1.6ghz!?!") wouldn't give any non-programmer that idea and they'd instantly assume that it is a far weaker unit.

With that said, if other next gen consoles are using Jaguar or Jaguar-like cores they'd fall into a similar trap, as bg has said.

 

[Linkhero1]

Yes. Like I mentioned it reaffirms that judging these launch titles is pointless.

I love your posts and explanation. If it weren't for you and wsippel I would have gone insane by now

Here was my response:


With that said, if other next gen consoles are using Jaguar or Jaguar-like cores they'd fall into a similar trap, as bg has said.

Is the PS4 the only console that will most likely be using Jaguar?

 

[Effect]

One of the goals of the Wii was to provide developers an alternative for the higher budgets that would come about thanks to HD. That didn't work as developers went all in on HD (also the Wii couldn't take the engines do to hardware differences even if some developers changed their minds and want to work on the Wii after investing so much) and many paid the price. I wonder if Nintendo's gamble is to try that again but with something more modern and see if developers simply don't dismiss them. Use the HD engines and assets they have now but use the Wii U as a baseline (eventually) and port up instead of going all in on the PS4/720 and risk what happen this generation happening again. That way development cost doesn't skyrocket like it did before. Let the Wii U be a bridge for developers and when it gets to the point they start focusing on the PS4/720 and the Wii U can't keep up they come out with their next console an repeat the cycle.

A crazy theory perhaps but this assumes Nintendo has decide to work on a different schedule then the others. They've learned that not being the most advance doesn't mean they can't be #1. People will still buy their consoles do to their games. So you can have those that stick to Nintendo's cycle and those that will jump from new console to new console. Or is this just a crazy theory?

 

[Lonely1]

So, how probably is for the first dev kits (or target specs) to have a dual thread per core, 3+ Ghz PPC CPU, akin to Xenos and change it to a an evolved multicore "Gekko" variant at sub 1.5Ghz in the latest version? It doens't make much sense to me, but it would fit with the "they failed to meet target specs" and "weak CPU" comments we had.

Also, chalk me in the 640 SPU GPU camp.

 

[Glorified G]

I am going to base my WiiU purchase on wsippel and bgassassin's word that this is a better thing...

So you're not going base your decision on games, but on two anonymous posters on the internet, speculating on a single forum post that could very well be bullshit?

 

[schuelma]

One of the goals of the Wii was to provide developers an alternative for the higher budgets that would come about thanks to HD. That didn't work as developers went all in on HD (also the Wii couldn't take the engines do to hardware differences) and many paid the price. I wonder if Nintendo's gamble is to try that again but with something more modern and see if developers simply don't dismiss them. Use the HD engines and assets they have now but use the Wii U as a baseline (eventually) and port up instead of going all in on the PS4/720 and risk what happen this generation happening again. That way development cost doesn't skyrocket like it did before. Let the Wii U be a bridge for developers and when it gets to the point they start focusing on the PS4/720 and the Wii U can't keep up they come out with their next console an repeat the cycle.

A crazy theory perhaps but this assumes Nintendo has decide to work on a different schedule then the others. They've learned that not being the most advance doesn't mean they can't be #1. People will still buy their consoles do to their games. So you can have those that stick to Nintendo's cycle and those that will jump from new console to new console. Or is this just a crazy theory?

I've said it many times, but I do think Nintendo could be very well positioned with Japanese developers, especially smaller and mid tier ones who cannot afford to take another jump.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I am going to base my WiiU purchase on wsippel and bgassassin's word that this is a better thing...

...

Also, the original poster on Beyond3D gives a wink at the end, so he or she seems to think its a good thing too.


---

To be more serious, its not like Nintendoland is an eyesore in the least, which is the only game we know of that's being built from the ground up on Wii U.

 

[lordfroakie]

I am going to base my WiiU purchase on wsippel and bgassassin's word that this is a better thing...

but seriously could they have not found balance with an even stronger GPU/CPU combo? SMH

secretly hoping they die painfully

wait? GPGPU = Neo Mode 7?

You're an idiot for basing your purchase on rumors. Why not wait until we get more information? -_-

 

[EatChildren]

wait? GPGPU = Neo Mode 7?

GPGPU compute programming will be a staple of every next generation engine worth its salt. It's a very, very good thing that the Wii U's GPU supports such things.

Kinda dumb comparison given the pointlessness of it, but put it this way: compute programming and tessellation are feature sets of DirectX 11.

 

[Tim-E]

I've said it many times, but I do think Nintendo could be very well positioned with Japanese developers, especially smaller and mid tier ones who cannot afford to take another jump.

I'm okay with this. I like Japanese games better anyway.

 

[Linkhero1]

You're an idiot for basing your purchase on rumors. Why not wait until we get more information? -_-

Although his reasoning is dumb, you shouldn't call him an idiot. We're all friends on this end vectorman

 

[Glorified G]

Also, the original poster on Beyond3D gives a wink at the end, so he or she seems to think its a good thing too.

I could say you're reading way too much into that, but that would be a gross understatement.

He or she also put it in a spoiler tag! which could very well mean good things in the future too!

 

[Smiles and Cries]

So you're not going base your decision on games, but on two anonymous posters on the internet, speculating on a single forum post that could very well be bullshit?

I was already sold no Nintendo's games but come on I don't want to do a second generation without 3rd Party support but if the tech is in better shape than my limited knowledge allows then yes my purchase is based on the words of those who know this stuff better than I do.

Seriously I don't like Nintendo that much to miss out on every major 3rd Party IP again if I can only buy one console... I am limited with my cash and I don't see that ever changing in the near future. I love Nintendo software but imagine missing out on things like Watch Dogs as ubisoft starts a new IP and you cannot follow it because Nintendo chose this path.

 

[Anth0ny]

Wsippel gave me the heads up on a very interesting post on B3D.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1648950&postcount=1248

Nintendo ya done goofed.

 

[Tim-E]

Get a modest gaming PC for a few hundred bucks when you need another computer and just play your third party games that way. That's what I did for years. Nintendo consoles + PC gaming = best option, I think.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

You're an idiot for basing your purchase on rumors. Why not wait until we get more information? -_-

what is up with the personal attacks
I have already stated my ignorance a few times already in this page alone

If people I trust in here say its true I just believe it... silly me :|

 

[BD1]

There is a rumor from a site you GO to, from "trusted source", that Wii U will be $300 and NoA plans NintendoLand as a physical pack-in.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Get a modest gaming PC for a few hundred bucks when you need another computer and just play your third party games that way. That's what I did for years. Nintendo consoles + PC gaming = best option, I think.

yeah this is a pretty damn good plan

 

[Shadow Hog]

There is a rumor from a site you GO to, from "trusted source", that Wii U will be $300 and NoA plans NintendoLand as a physical pack-in.

That'd probably be the only way I, personally, would spend money on NintendoLand, so.

 

[clemenx]

Get a modest gaming PC for a few hundred bucks when you need another computer and just play your third party games that way. That's what I did for years. Nintendo consoles + PC gaming = best option, I think.

I go the same setup plus DS and PSP, imo this gen was awesome for portables and way better than consoles. It's a shame some people are so adamant against them but that's another debate.
The only things that I've ever found myself wanting to to play from PS3/360 exclusives are MLB The Show and RDR (fuck Rockstar for not releasing a PC version...)

 

[Effect]

Nintendo ya done goofed.

So going by the post the issue is that developers need to at least factor in how the Wii U is designed from the start. Or at least have enough time to rework their engines so they have a Wii U version and that possibly isn't the case now or in time for launch and games already under development?

If that's the case we won't really know what we're dealing with in regard to the Wii U until 2013 then when those games start really showing up.

 

[bgassassin]

I agree with EC. This at least gives indication of a DX11-equivalent GPU.

Is the PS4 the only console that will most likely be using Jaguar?

From how it sounds, no. There was an indication Xbox 3 has gone this route as well.

One of the goals of the Wii was to provide developers an alternative for the higher budgets that would come about thanks to HD. That didn't work as developers went all in on HD (also the Wii couldn't take the engines do to hardware differences even if some developers changed their minds and want to work on the Wii after investing so much) and many paid the price. I wonder if Nintendo's gamble is to try that again but with something more modern and see if developers simply don't dismiss them. Use the HD engines and assets they have now but use the Wii U as a baseline (eventually) and port up instead of going all in on the PS4/720 and risk what happen this generation happening again. That way development cost doesn't skyrocket like it did before. Let the Wii U be a bridge for developers and when it gets to the point they start focusing on the PS4/720 and the Wii U can't keep up they come out with their next console an repeat the cycle.

A crazy theory perhaps but this assumes Nintendo has decide to work on a different schedule then the others. They've learned that not being the most advance doesn't mean they can't be #1. People will still buy their consoles do to their games. So you can have those that stick to Nintendo's cycle and those that will jump from new console to new console. Or is this just a crazy theory?

WUST was partly founded on crazy theories.

Though I think it will work the opposite way in allowing future ports to transition better.

So, how probably is for the first dev kits (or target specs) to have a dual thread per core, 3+ Ghz PPC CPU, akin to Xenos and change it to a an evolved multicore "Gekko" variant at sub 1.5Ghz in the latest version? It doens't make much sense to me, but it would fit with the "they failed to meet target specs" and "weak CPU" comments we had.

Also, chalk me in the 640 SPU GPU camp.

It makes sense to me since it sounds like some of my early speculation. There was even an old article where Vigil I believe said there were things they did in the first kit that they couldn't do in the second kit.

I could say you're reading way too much into that, but that would be a gross understatement.

He or she also put it in a spoiler tag! which could very well mean good things in the future too!

You haven't clarified your question to me yet.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

There is a rumor from a site you GO to, from "trusted source", that Wii U will be $300 and NoA plans NintendoLand as a physical pack-in.

Sounds about right. They really aren't gonna try and sell Nintendoland separately...

...are they!?

Do we even know what's out at launch anymore? The launch window being into April kinda scares me

 

[gamergirly]

That latest rumor makes no sense lol. Nintendo would be making a huge profit off this machine. Maybe $100 for all we know. And be guaranteeing Wii U's death in 2 years. This is one rumor I will definitely be taking with a a pinch of....whiskey

 

[Smiles and Cries]

GPGPU compute programming will be a staple of every next generation engine worth its salt. It's a very, very good thing that the Wii U's GPU supports such things.

Kinda dumb comparison given the pointlessness of it, but put it this way: compute programming and tessellation are feature sets of DirectX 11.

I'm fine with this being good but if the next two other guys have the same feature, this being a good move is only barely keeping up with the jones

 

[Anth0ny]

Get a modest gaming PC for a few hundred bucks when you need another computer and just play your third party games that way. That's what I did for years. Nintendo consoles + PC gaming = best option, I think.

only problem is it's gonna be this gen all over again

i couldn't give any less of a fuck about third party games on nintendo consoles

but at some point during this gen, skyrim 2 is going to come out and blow the new Zelda out of the water graphically. And while graphics aren't important, it's going to be hard not to think what could have been if Nintendo wasn't so damn conservative with the power in their console.

 

[StevieP]

That latest rumor makes no sense lol. Nintendo would be making a huge profit off this machine. Maybe $100 for all we know. And be guaranteeing Wii U's death in 2 years. This is one rumor I will definitely be taking with a a pinch of....whiskey

I'll repeat it again: According to Forbes the Wii (yes, Wii) was making Nintendo $6 per console at launch

only problem is it's gonna be this gen all over again

There is a pretty clear distinction as to what Nintendo did with the Wii and what they're doing with Wii U. EatChildren covered it above.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

That latest rumor makes no sense lol. Nintendo would be making a huge profit off this machine. Maybe $100 for all we know. And be guaranteeing Wii U's death in 2 years. This is one rumor I will definitely be taking with a a pinch of....whiskey

Maybe I'm understanding you wrong, but you seriously expect Nintendo to sell this for $200? the 3DS was $250 at launch.

Best case scenrio was $250 without pack-in, $300 with.

 

[Tim-E]

only problem is it's gonna be this gen all over again

i couldn't give any less of a fuck about third party games on nintendo consoles

but at some point during this gen, skyrim 2 is going to come out and blow the new Zelda out of the water graphically. And while graphics aren't important, it's going to be hard not to think what could have been if Nintendo wasn't so damn conservative with the power in their console.

I just....can't even force myself to care about graphics. I can play PC games from the late 80s for the first time today and the word "dated" won't even enter my head. Gameplay-wise I'll take a Zelda game over any Elder Scrolls game. I've always had more fun with them and I always will.

I'd honestly rather more people in this industry be as conservative as Nintendo. If they were, we wouldn't see as many studios close over the last few years as we have.

 

[bgassassin]

only problem is it's gonna be this gen all over again

You might want to read the posts after the one you quoted.

 

[Glorified G]

You haven't clarified your question to me yet.

Didn't you speculate the cpu will have 2 threads per core? Which I assumed wouldn't be weaker than xenon. Now this guy on b3d is saying it is. I figured you two are hearing different things regarding the cpu.

 

[Anth0ny]

There is a pretty clear distinction as to what Nintendo did with the Wii and what they're doing with Wii U. EatChildren covered it above.

You don't think third party support is going to dry up after PS4/720 drop?

And no, gimped Madden/COD/whateverthefuck doesn't count.

 

[guit3457]

Didn't you speculate the cpu will have 2 threads per core? Which I assumed wouldn't be weaker than xenon. Now this guy on b3d is saying it is. I figured you two are hearing different things regarding the cpu.

Basically, people have no idea what are they talking about. Here, in b3d forums, etc etc

Here some people said: 5x xbox 360, then 1.5, now weaker...and don't make me talk about "that" IGN article.

Wii U situation is hilarious (in a good way). Day 1 for me....and for you (you know it XD )

 

[daakusedo]

Glad they're going for the next gen games, while it was obvious, too much emphasize were made for the last games for this generation. Now we'll see how it shape up with more years or third parties conspiracy or not.

 

[bgassassin]

Didn't you speculate the cpu will have 2 threads per core? Which I assumed wouldn't be weaker than xenon. Now this guy on b3d is saying it is. I figured you two are hearing different things regarding the cpu.

Oh your question said GPU. It can be multi-threaded and still achieve that. Actually that wasn't speculation. Lherre said last year it has 2 threads per core. The person I got the PS4 specs said the same.

 

[Roman]

For everyone who is feeling down a bit with the games announced so far - remember this?

Ports, sports games, bad sequels and games that barely look better than Xbox ones.
This system also launched a year before its competition.

I would say there is very little to worry about.

 

[gamergirly]

Maybe I'm understanding you wrong, but you seriously expect Nintendo to sell this for $200? the 3DS was $250 at launch.

Best case scenrio was $250 without pack-in, $300 with.

No, I was just thinking with this latest "rumor", they would make a huge profit of selling it at $300

 

[Instro]

Wsippel gave me the heads up on a very interesting post on B3D.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1648950&postcount=1248

Interesting, that will be a problem for them in the short term if they were planning for that kind of gpu support. Definitely is promising for future support though, even if the cpu is rather weak. It's a good thing Nintendo has this 1 year head start while devs figure the hardware out.

 

[Tim-E]

For everyone who is feeling down a bit with the games announced so far - remember this?

Ports, sports games, bad sequels and games that barely look better than Xbox ones.
This system also launched a year before its competition.

I would say there is very little to worry about.

+1

 

[bgassassin]

Basically, people have no idea what are they talking about. Here, in b3d forums, etc etc

Here some people said: 5x xbox 360, then 1.5, now weaker...and don't make me talk about "that" IGN article.

Wii U situation is hilarious (in a good way). Day 1 for me....and for you (you know it XD )

Actually the bold never came from people here. Maybe one or two about it being 1.5x in the past though that also recently came from the Ubisoft article. The 5x Xbox 360 came from "that" IGN article.

 

[Anth0ny]

For everyone who is feeling down a bit with the games announced so far - remember this?

http://images.bit-tech.net/news_images/2005/11/xbox_360_launch_titles/boxshots.jpg[/IM G]

Ports, sports games, bad sequels and games that barely look better than Xbox ones.
This system also launched a year before its competition.

I would say there is very little to worry about. :)[/QUOTE]

yeah but that's xbox

fuck xbox

i'm used to Nintendo consoles having awesome launches. And while Wii U's isn't bad... nothing about it gets me excited like a Twilight Princess or a Smash Bros Melee.

 

[schuelma]

For everyone who is feeling down a bit with the games announced so far - remember this?

Yes, I browsed this list of launches the other day.

Real eye opening stuff. Wii U's launch should end up being pretty decent.

 

[Nibel]

So, Wii U will probably my accessory console just like the Wii..