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[Rösti]

EDIT: I see above we're talking Xbox 720. I can vouch for target specs of 8GB. Texture resolution should be incredible.

What module are we talking here, DDR3, Z-RAM, HMC or something else? 8 GB would indeed be a nice thing for Durango, but you must take into account what type it is. Since Microsoft joined the HMC consortium not long ago, maybe they are looking into using that technology.

Has anyone figured out/leaked yet what Wii U uses for RAM? We know it's not 1T-SRAM anyway.

 

[EatChildren]

I'm glad they (apparently) went with it versus pulling another Wii.

What module are we talking here, DDR3, Z-RAM, HMC or something else? 8 GB would indeed be a nice thing for Durango, but you must take into account what type it is. Since Microsoft joined the HMC consortium not long ago, maybe they are looking into using that technology.

Has anyone figured out/leaked yet what Wii U uses for RAM? We know it's not 1T-SRAM anyway.

No idea. Just know that Microsoft is targeting 8GB RAM for the next Xbox, and the devkits have more.

 

[Fourth Storm]

8 GB of DDR3? That would give you something in the league of, what, 100+ GB/s of of memory bandwidth (since I'm obsessed w/ this aspect of specs haha)?

If they go this route (and don't split the pool w/ GDDR5), it would be damn impressive, but I'd imagine alot of performance would be eaten up by the background OS, Kinect, and media functionality they're planning. If PS4 uses a unified pool of GDDR5 it might not get completely blown away. As for Wii U, I'm still frustrated we don't know the RAM type...

 

[Father_Brain]

Did you see my response to your other post about 3rd parties?

The GPGPU thing? Yeah, but I don't see what that has to do with the broader point about the market.

 

[BlackJace]

Are they pushing for Windows 8 intergration or something? 8 GB of ram seems insane. Like...way insane.

 

[thegodsend]

how sure are you about the GPGPU?
To me it sounded more like a wild guess so far.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Maybe I missunderstood u but like I understood it I can't agree fully on that one.

The PS 1 was a super success from Sony (I never owned one lend one once with some games for a couple of days and didnt really liked it that much)
The PS 1 was a great success cos of the piracy.
Same with PS 2 cos PS2 was an expensive piece of hardware.

As sad as it is, the better ppl can make piracy on a console the more successful it will be...
Sad story...

So back to cartridges!!!

Fully disagree, in no way shape or form was piracy the reason the PS1 and PS2 were a success. Not even close, in fact I'd say software sales on both those platforms pretty much prove your statement wrong. If piracy made systems successful and popular, the Dreamcast, and PSP would be sales kings.

 

[donny2112]

And I do think the former plays into supporting their multimedia desires. That could be pretty some intensive stuff going on in the background while playing a game.

= Microsoft's version of PS3's Blu-Ray? (i.e. increase the cost too much for a feature that can't be taken out)

 

[bgassassin]

What module are we talking here, DDR3, Z-RAM, HMC or something else? 8 GB would indeed be a nice thing for Durango, but you must take into account what type it is. Since Microsoft joined the HMC consortium not long ago, maybe they are looking into using that technology.

Has anyone figured out/leaked yet what Wii U uses for RAM? We know it's not 1T-SRAM anyway.

Last I heard the main memory might be GDDR3. And I think we can safely say IBM's eDRAM replaced the 1T-SRAM. Still hoping for more accurate info on the former.

8 GB of DDR3? That would give you something in the league of, what, 100+ GB/s of of memory bandwidth (since I'm obsessed w/ this aspect of specs haha)?

If they go this route (and don't split the pool w/ GDDR5), it would be damn impressive, but I'd imagine alot of performance would be eaten up by the background OS, Kinect, and media functionality they're planning. If PS4 uses a unified pool of GDDR5 it might not get completely blown away. As for Wii U, I'm still frustrated we don't know the RAM type...

We would still need to know the clock and bus width to have an idea, but I'm not confident enough in my BW calculating to take a guess right now.

The GPGPU thing? Yeah, but I don't see what that has to do with the broader point about the market.

It's the "can't see the forest for the trees" idiom. Being focused on the "inability" to port their current games keeps them from seeing they need to have those titles on as many platforms as possible.

 

[EatChildren]

how sure are you about the GPGPU?
To me it sounded more like a wild guess so far.

Well, it was on the devkit target spec list, and other elements of that list matched up with stuff I heard elsewhere so I assume it's true. The compute and tessellation programming support was a surprise though, assuming they're in the final hardware.

 

[Father_Brain]

It's the "can't see the forest for the trees" idiom. Being focused on the "inability" to port their current games keeps them from seeing they need to have those titles on as many platforms as possible.

Ah. Well, I think embracing Wii U would probably be smart, but I don't think it'd be enough to make the AAA business model sustainable next gen.

 

[bgassassin]

how sure are you about the GPGPU?
To me it sounded more like a wild guess so far.

This is where it came from.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1648950&postcount=1248

And what EC said.

= Microsoft's version of PS3's Blu-Ray? (i.e. increase the cost too much for a feature that can't be taken out)

They'll make an Xbox 3-lite.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

It's the "can't see the forest for the trees" idiom. Being focused on the "inability" to port their current games keeps them from seeing they need to have those titles on as many platforms as possible.

Because a lot of 3rd parties are not what I would call "smart".

 

[schuelma]

So just from various comments, I think it is fair to say 3rd parties are probably at least starting work on the first batch of "next generation" stuff.

Do we think:

A-Wii U is included in at least 75% of these plans.

B- Wii U is included in roughly half.

C- Wii U is included in 25%.

D- Wii U is in Wii position and basically not being considered.

I'll say C. I'd like to believe that for stuff like Madden and FIFA, EA is including Wii U. But I'm not at all convinced that is the case.

 

[schuelma]

Oh and along the same lines, Take-Two on mature titles on Wii U:

Take-Two Interactive Software chairman and CEO Strauss Zelnick, however, was not among the cheerleaders.

While Take-Two will make sports and family titles for the Wii U, its bigger core franchises have been notably absent from the list of partners. And that seems unlikely to change anytime soon.

"We haven't announced anything," says Zelnick on the possibility of moving the company's mature titles onto the Wii U. "I'm skeptical."

Link

 

[HylianTom]

So just from various comments, I think it is fair to say 3rd parties are probably at least starting work on the first batch of "next generation" stuff.

Do we think:

A-Wii U is included in at least 75% of these plans.

B- Wii U is included in roughly half.

C- Wii U is included in 25%.

D- Wii U is in Wii position and basically not being considered.

I'll say C. I'd like to believe that for stuff like Madden and FIFA, EA is including Wii U. But I'm not at all convinced that is the case.

I go back and forth between C and D, probably leaning more towards D. Any decent non-Nintendo game that comes to the system is what I would consider a pleasant surprise.

Financially, this should be quite a fascinating generation to watch unfold. So many possibilities and perils..

 

[ShockingAlberto]

So just from various comments, I think it is fair to say 3rd parties are probably at least starting work on the first batch of "next generation" stuff.

Do we think:

A-Wii U is included in at least 75% of these plans.

B- Wii U is included in roughly half.

C- Wii U is included in 25%.

D- Wii U is in Wii position and basically not being considered.

I'll say C. I'd like to believe that for stuff like Madden and FIFA, EA is including Wii U. But I'm not at all convinced that is the case.

 

[z0m3le]

8 GB of DDR3? That would give you something in the league of, what, 100+ GB/s of of memory bandwidth (since I'm obsessed w/ this aspect of specs haha)?

If they go this route (and don't split the pool w/ GDDR5), it would be damn impressive, but I'd imagine alot of performance would be eaten up by the background OS, Kinect, and media functionality they're planning. If PS4 uses a unified pool of GDDR5 it might not get completely blown away. As for Wii U, I'm still frustrated we don't know the RAM type...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM 17GB/s if I'm reading that right, GDDR3 can give a maximum of at least 64GB/s, couldn't find a higher bandwidth.

The big difference between graphics memory and standard memory though is that GDDR series can both write and read in the same cycle, while DDR series can only read or write.

Also the specs I've seen for XB3 give 6GB/s DDR3 and 2GB/s of GDDR series memory (didn't see if it was GDDR5 or 3, but either would make the point above pretty much useless, other than having 2GBs of very useful memory and 6GBs of more general memory, good for AI and a ton of other stuff.

 

[donny2112]

"We haven't announced anything," says Zelnick on the possibility of moving the company's mature titles onto the Wii U. "I'm skeptical."

Nintendo needs to fund the porting costs of GTAV to Wii U. For making a statement to the industry about their intention to have the industry's games, they need to make sure that GTAV is there.

 

[schuelma]

I don't know what that means, but I'll just guess it is D.

 

[DynamicG]

So just from various comments, I think it is fair to say 3rd parties are probably at least starting work on the first batch of "next generation" stuff.

Do we think:

A-Wii U is included in at least 75% of these plans.

B- Wii U is included in roughly half.

C- Wii U is included in 25%.

D- Wii U is in Wii position and basically not being considered.

I'll say C. I'd like to believe that for stuff like Madden and FIFA, EA is including Wii U. But I'm not at all convinced that is the case.

Somewhere between C & D for me. There will be 3rd party stuff, but I wouldn't even think about holding my breath for 3rd party parity, even with current generation consoles.

 

[Father_Brain]

I don't know what that means, but I'll just guess it is D.

CD? Somewhere between C and D? Either C or D, depending on the publisher?

 

[Sadist]

Has anyone been following the Dead Space 3 sales thread in the Gaming forum?

I can't make up my mind whether to be disappointed that third parties aren't on board with Wii U or just to shrug my shoulders at it, since the odds of the $60 AAA business model existing in a recognizable form by the end of the next generation aren't very high regardless of whether or not they embrace the platform.

Especially if you consider the fact that only mega franchises like Call of Duty, the Elder Scrolls, GTA, Assassin´s Creed, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy (barely), FIFA etc. and the first party releases seem to pass the five million mark.

I think publishers are overestimating the sales potential of a lot of titles.

 

[Christine]

Both C and D in a state of quantum superposition, obviously.

 

[EatChildren]

Nintendo needs to fund the porting costs of GTAV to Wii U. For making a statement to the industry about their intention to have the industry's games, they need to make sure that GTAV is there.

If Nintendo's CPU is indeed problematic I think I'd write off GTAV. I cant see Rockstar's already existing disinterest coupled with a demanding game build on an engine primarily optimised for current gen hardware leading to any Wii U port.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

0-25% sounds bad.

 

[Fourth Storm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM 17GB/s if I'm reading that right, GDDR3 can give a maximum of at least 64GB/s, couldn't find a higher bandwidth.

The big difference between graphics memory and standard memory though is that GDDR series can both write and read in the same cycle, while DDR series can only read or write.

Also the specs I've seen for XB3 give 6GB/s DDR3 and 2GB/s of GDDR series memory (didn't see if it was GDDR5 or 3, but either would make the point above pretty much useless, other than having 2GBs of very useful memory and 6GBs of more general memory, good for AI and a ton of other stuff.

I believe the 17 GB/s is per 64-bit DIMM. So w/ more chips and memory controllers, the bandwidth increases drastically. Look at Power7 for reference.

 

[schuelma]

CD? Somewhere between C and D? Either C or D, depending on the publisher?

Oh yeah that makes sense.

Not at all surprising, but still very disappointing.

 

[Christine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM 17GB/s if I'm reading that right, GDDR3 can give a maximum of at least 64GB/s, couldn't find a higher bandwidth.

The big difference between graphics memory and standard memory though is that GDDR series can both write and read in the same cycle, while DDR series can only read or write.

Also the specs I've seen for XB3 give 6GB/s DDR3 and 2GB/s of GDDR series memory (didn't see if it was GDDR5 or 3, but either would make the point above pretty much useless, other than having 2GBs of very useful memory and 6GBs of more general memory, good for AI and a ton of other stuff.

I was just mentioning this to my brother and he says that if it's GDDR3 instead of 5, he considers it shockingly unimpressive and cheap. I was surprised at how strongly he felt about this.

 

[z0m3le]

So just from various comments, I think it is fair to say 3rd parties are probably at least starting work on the first batch of "next generation" stuff.

Do we think:

A-Wii U is included in at least 75% of these plans.

B- Wii U is included in roughly half.

C- Wii U is included in 25%.

D- Wii U is in Wii position and basically not being considered.

I'll say C. I'd like to believe that for stuff like Madden and FIFA, EA is including Wii U. But I'm not at all convinced that is the case.

Ports should take no more than 10 to 20 people working 2 years to port over any next gen 3rd party game to the platform, that is 100k X 10or20 X 2 = $2m, $4m...

With games like Dead Space 3 requiring 5Million units to break even, I think they won't be able to ignore Wii U, and with such similar architecture, a difference of medium to ultra pc settings should be the average of what you see this next generation.

Quick run down of the last generation in terms of power:
PS2=6GFLOPs XBOX=21GFLOPs
WiiU=~600GFLOPs PS4=1843GFLOPs (very similar difference in power)

The best thing about this performance difference is that Wii U has virtually all the same GPU features PS4/XB3 will have, and with compute units in the GPUs, there shouldn't be a large difference in gameplay either.

I believe the 17 GB/s is per 64-bit DIMM. So w/ more chips and memory controllers, the bandwidth increases drastically. Look at Power7 for reference.

I thought this might of been the case, that is why I said if I'm reading this right.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I was just mentioning this to my brother and he says that if it's GDDR3 instead of 5, he considers it shockingly unimpressive and cheap. I was surprised at how strongly he felt about this.

I'd tend to agree. From what I've read, it wouldn't make much sense to use GDDR3 in this day and age. I could def see a split pool of GDDR5/DDR3 coming into play. The 2/6 split sounds about right if they want to achieve basic parity for PS4 ports without much trouble and then more goodies on top of it, whether they be OS or game related.

 

[EatChildren]

You sure do love your GFLOPs.

 

[Sadist]

At this point in time, I'd say D. I'm not expecting anything from third parties. I wonder how Nintendo will try to turn this around.

 

[Thraktor]

I'd tend to agree. From what I've read, it wouldn't make much sense to use GDDR3 in this day and age. I could def see a split pool of GDDR5/DDR3 coming into play. The 2/6 split sounds about right if they want to achieve basic parity for PS4 ports without much trouble and then more goodies on top of it, whether they be OS or game related.

They could just go with DDR3 (or DDR4 if it's available by then) with a very wide bus and very high clock to get the bandwidth they want. They could get as high as 192GB/s with a 512bit bus at 1.5GHz. Or 96GB/s with a more reasonable 256bit bus.

 

[EatChildren]

I hope the Wii U turns into another Wii where all the major third party titles are made for 720/PS4/PC and all the Wii U third party games are quirky, exclusive shit with b-grade budgets.

 

[z0m3le]

You sure do love your GFLOPs.

When you compare such similar cards, espcially from the same manufacture, it's a very accurate way to judge performance, go look up reviews of the HD7770 vs the HD7870, the performance is pretty linear, of course I won't go completely ignorant and say that is all there is to it, but it's the best way we have to compare the cards.

If Nintendo's CPU is indeed problematic I think I'd write off GTAV. I cant see Rockstar's already existing disinterest coupled with a demanding game build on an engine primarily optimised for current gen hardware leading to any Wii U port.

Well I think people might misunderstand the tech, obviously the CPU is more modern, and not optimized for the engines being used, prophecy's contact is a complete unknown as well, he could be someone not familiar with different IBM processors, or he could be a plain numbers guy.

Wsippel has estimated the Wii U's CPU to be based on the 470s series and has mentioned that those chips don't support SIMD, but there was one that did, the 476fp, which if Wsippel is right, would give Wii U a CPU that is "3 cores" but 6 threads, @ 1.6GHz-2GHz Out of order, it would be faster than Xenon, but you would definitely have to optimize to really see that, but in no way is that a weak CPU, it's simply different, and depending on the clock speed, could in fact compare favorably to a steamroll "4 core" since it's easy to describe that cpu as a dual core with "hardware hyperthreading" Just look to Bulldozer if you need to know what I'm talking about there.

I hope the Wii U turns into another Wii where all the major third party titles are made for 720/PS4/PC and all the Wii U third party games are quirky, exclusive shit with b-grade budgets.

Why? there is no reason they would need to do this, and I am 100% sure that developers will keep dying off if they can't utilize a true market leader or multiport to all 3 systems.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I'm optimistic, so I'll go w/ C. I think Nintendo will get a few of the big AAA titles, just so companies can recoup more of the surely massive development costs.

The catch will be that the Wii U versions will come later and be developed by "B-Teams" just as w/ Wii this gen. :\

Remember the end-of-Gamecube/start-of-Wii era Nintendo that specifically said that they did not desire straight-up ports (surely an overreaction to the fact that the other consoles got the prettier/online-enabled/better selling version of multiplats)? Yeah, they may as well start using that line again.

Or start whoring out Mario and Link to EA, Namco, etc once again. Even if Nintendo gets blown to shit this gen, those IPs will still be left standing.

They could just go with DDR3 (or DDR4 if it's available by then) with a very wide bus and very high clock to get the bandwidth they want. They could get as high as 192GB/s with a 512bit bus at 1.5GHz. Or 96GB/s with a more reasonable 256bit bus.

Thanks, that sounds right to me. I don't trust my math skills/knowledge of RAM speeds to go any more specific than ballpark figures.

 

[Rösti]

At this point in time, I'd say D. I'm not expecting anything from third parties. I wonder how Nintendo will try to turn this around.

I won't pick any option, but I too feel most third party developers/publishers are generally very uninterested in Wii U. Especially considering what Durango and Orbis apparently feature hardware wise. Though I think it's too early to come to any conclusions; to be able to do that a hardware comparison between Wii U, Durango, Orbis and Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 should more or less be required. It would probably be as simple as comparing data on paper unless someone provides some benchmarking.

I find it kinda strange there's been no word from AMD or IBM about Wii U's hardware since E3 2011. IBM has provided much information on both Xenon and Cell/B.E, why not just say something more about Wii U?

The only thing we've got from IBM is this: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/34683.wss
The only thing we've got from AMD is this: http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-and-nintendo-join-2011june07.aspx

There has been no news from the AMD Fusion Developer Summit 2012 as far as I know. I've approached IBM with questions about Wii U on several occasions, but they just dodge questions like mad and redirect to departments that have no relevancy to the topic.

 

[Linkhero1]

So just from various comments, I think it is fair to say 3rd parties are probably at least starting work on the first batch of "next generation" stuff.

Do we think:

A-Wii U is included in at least 75% of these plans.

B- Wii U is included in roughly half.

C- Wii U is included in 25%.

D- Wii U is in Wii position and basically not being considered.

I'll say C. I'd like to believe that for stuff like Madden and FIFA, EA is including Wii U. But I'm not at all convinced that is the case.

I feel as if Wii U will be somewhere between 0-25%. Sort of sad, but I'm not really expecting much third party support.

 

[InsaneZero]

I hope the Wii U turns into another Wii where all the major third party titles are made for 720/PS4/PC and all the Wii U third party games are quirky, exclusive shit with b-grade budgets.

Ken Kutaragi is pleased with by your faith, and he will reward you with his presence seeing as he has none at Sony anymore.

 

[NateDrake]

Why? there is no reason they would need to do this, and I am 100% sure that developers will keep dying off if they can't utilize a true market leader or multiport to all 3 systems.

Because the Wii exclusives were pretty damn good.

 

[snesfreak]

Just remember - don't respond to any of the insults or trolling. Ignore it all. Resist the urge to hit the reply button.. over and over and over and over again. We've been instructed repeatedly to send a PM to the mods. Hmm.

I think Nirolak used the phrase "take the high road" when giving this explicit instruction on our last thread.

Ahh.. yes.. here it is:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38232682&postcount=5956

Seems like it was just yesterday when it was posted.

I did PM a mod, I guess they didn't agree with me on the post.

 

[EatChildren]

Why? there is no reason they would need to do this, and I am 100% sure that developers will keep dying off if they can't utilize a true market leader or multiport to all 3 systems.

Honestly? Pure selfishness. I won't be buying third party ports on the Wii U.

Funny thing about the Wii. It's shitty hardware and unorthodox control scheme lead to a slew of weird, middling budget, rough-around-the-edges titles that were, for most part, completely unique to the system. This I loved, as it lead to me having a huge library of Wii games that I couldn't get anywhere else. And I like to explore the weird and quirky end of gaming just as much as I like to play the big stuff. The Wii was great for this.

The idea of the Wii U becoming a platform for out of the ordinary games, home to exclusives more likely to take advantage of the GamePad in legitimately interesting ways versus ports with dumb, gimmicky pad add-ons, legitimately excites me.

Because the Wii exclusives were pretty damn good.

This, in a nut shell.

The higher the probability that the game will be released across multiple platforms, the lower the probability that said game will be built from the ground up for the unique qualities the Wii U has to offer.

 

[z0m3le]

Because the Wii exclusives were pretty damn good.

That's no reason not to want 3rd party ports as well... as I said $2m - $4m for a chance to sell to 1/3rd of the market or more? with game budgets 60m and more, that seems like a small investment to recoup losses... DS:3 is probably going to not hit it's 5M units sold, will it really be a shock?

 

[snowdog1971]

We're very versatile here.

I hope you're adaptable, Dr Scott..? I know Brad is...

*Arches eyebrow*

;oP

Might have to watch that again now!

 

[schuelma]

Funny thing about the Wii. It's shitty hardware and unorthodox control scheme lead to a slew of weird, middling budget, rough-around-the-edges titles that were, for most part, completely unique to the system. This I loved, as it lead to me having a huge library of Wii games that I couldn't get anywhere else. And I like to explore the weird and quirky end of gaming just as much as I like to play the big stuff. The Wii was great for this.
.

I mean, I can think of a few, but I'm struggling to think of that many quality titles. What ones are you thinking of?

 

[schuelma]

Honestly all I really want deep down third party wise is good Capcom support and a non gimped version of FIFA. That's it. Is that too much to ask? Is It?

 

[Linkhero1]

I hope the Wii U turns into another Wii where all the major third party titles are made for 720/PS4/PC and all the Wii U third party games are quirky, exclusive shit with b-grade budgets.

I wouldn't mind this as much as long as we get those shmups too. The more shmups the better.

Honestly all I really want deep down third party wise is good Capcom support and a non gimped version of FIFA. That's it. Is that too much to ask? Is It?

I wouldn't really worry all too much. I think the Japanese developers will be on board, but I'm more worried about the Western developers. I've been playing more and more western developed games these past few years and less and less Japanese developed games.

 

[EatChildren]

I mean, I can think of a few, but I'm struggling to think of that many quality titles. What ones are you thinking of?

Little Kings Story, MadWorld, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories (Wii was the lead SKU), de Blob, Zack & Wicki, HOTD: Overkill (again, before it was ported, the Wii was the lead SKU), No More Heroes 1 & 2, Red Steel 2, Goldeneye, Boom Blox, etc.

All games I own and thoroughly enjoyed.

 

[NateDrake]

That's no reason not to want 3rd party ports as well... as I said $2m - $4m for a chance to sell to 1/3rd of the market or more? with game budgets 60m and more, that seems like a small investment to recoup losses... DS:3 is probably going to not hit it's 5M units sold, will it really be a shock?

Wii U can still get some ports of select 3rd party games, but the more unique exclusives it can get the better chance the system has its own identity than another PS2, GCN, Xbox generation where everything is basically the same across all three systems except for first-party software.