Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012
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Thunder Monkey
Banned
Next gens victor will be decided like every gen before it.MadOdorMachine said:
Games. That seems to be the only qualifier for mass market success. Have games they want. This can come in the form of CoD, Mario, Pokemon, Wii Sports, Brain Training, GTA, and whatever is next. MS could have it, Sony could, or Nintendo. Hell some 3rd party could be the holder.
Price I would put as a secondary motivator. Given just how large a drop off Sony had between last generation and the current. If power meant anything the $299 360 should have mopped the floor with the Wii. Even if it was "gimped".
OrangeGrayBlue said:
I think so too. If we are supposed to be "worrying" about Nintendo it should probably be in the area of connectivity and "social features" (And I don't just mean a Facebook button). I really hope they are investing a lot of time, money and brain-power into this.
Nintendo are a creative bunch of wacky nut-jobs (I mean that in the nicest possible way) who seem to view things so differently to other game companies. If they can take that creativity and think big with it, and execute on it, they could really do some cool shit.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
but my point is it doesn't solve Nintendo's problem. Yes they'll get the games, but they probably still won't sell.Jocchan said:
ShockingAlberto
Member
In the end it's the same software, which is a marked improvement over what the Wii had, which was no software, and that system won this past generation in sales.-Pyromaniac- said:
People have no problem buying console versions of PC games which are pared down and undeniably inferior. Not sure why there's suddenly a line in the sand drawn here.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I wouldn't say that.-Pyromaniac- said:
The PS2 was getting the technically inferior versions of many games, they still tended to sell more on that platform just by virtue of a larger userbase.
WiiU has that as a distinct advantage if Nintendo can get people to buy it.
Zoramon089
Banned
-Pyromaniac- said:
Why would the difference have to be unoticeable to the human eye? Did that prevent the PS2 versions of games from selling well during that generation? The only people who will be "bothered" by the minor graphical differences are not the norm. For the general public, being able to play the same game as other systems without any glaring differences is enough to warrant a purchase, assuming they only have a Wii U. Not to mention the added benefits the controller will bring to the game to further differentiate the Wii U experience from the others
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
-Pyromaniac- said:
Everyone is assuming that there will even be a noticable difference in the first place. Besides, I think sony and microsoft will be offering unique ways to control games with their standard controllers, just as Nintendo is with the Wii U. I think the things that can be done with their controllers from a gameplay perspective, as well as the connectivity features they offer, will be the much more important factor and will be what all three major companies base their marketing on. Strong graphics will become another feature on the check list, not something of primary importance. I also think people are making a big mistake to assume that Nintendo are just incapable of offering competitive graphics. They've done it for every generation except one and people suddenly think they couldn't do it if they tried. I highly doubt we'll be seeing a difference between all three that is any greater than the PS2 era. This "half-generation leap" stuff is silly. They wouldn't have made that bird demo to show off graphics knowing that ms or sony could have unveiled their new console at the same event if thry felt that they would pale in comparison.
Hero of Legend
Member
I really hope we get the Bird demo and that mythical Japanese Street demo as apps at launch, awesome time waster potential. *drool*
-Pyromaniac-
Member
ShockingAlberto said:
There are much more differentiating factors between those 2 versions of a game then just one has better graphics and one doesn't. They are totally different forms of gaming. First of all, much less people have a PC capable enough to run the game at this "undeniably superior" level, while that's not a worry for consoles.
Come on I can't even believe I have to say the difference between the two. You simply and positively cannot be comparing 3rd party releases between console vs PC and console vs console. Console vs Console is as basic as it gets. They're both machines with built in specs, they're both played the same way, they're both played on the same couch, they're both played in the same room, they both sit in the same box place under your tv.
Choosing to buy a console game over another console game is as basic as things get. Are the graphics better? Is the online better? Simple questions like that. Wii-U will have an easier time getting support, that only solves half the problem, the other half is having the support mean something with sales. I could be wrong, I'll say that again. But as it stands, common sense would have you know that core gamers would choose the console with better graphics/better online/better whatever else, over the inferior one.
PC vs Console, like I mentioned above, has much more factors that come into play. A lot of people just don't have the graphics capabilities in their PCs, they aren't comfortable gaming on their computers because it isn't something they do often (because they're busy buying lots of console games most of the time), and so on and so forth. It's just easier/more convenient to get a console game over a PC game, in terms of thought process that goes along with it. It's not as simple as PC is a much stronger and superior gaming experience. Is it? My PC won't be able to run BF3 THAT well so I'm getting it for PS3 first, because I can't take advantage of anything the PC has to offer, that and I enjoy playing on consoles more with all my friends that also have a console that can play the game without worrying about graphics cards/drivers/DRM, digital vs not, etc...the whole PC package.
Not a knock on the master race, they are comfortable with all of that, but lets not delude ourselves into thinking that it's just as easy to get into PC gaming than console gaming.
edit: and I'll say it again, to the dude that quoted me above, I'm OPENLY conceding I could be wrong, there are LOTS of asterisks in my assumptions, it's all based on the final version of the console, it's based on 720/ps4, it's based on game engines, and so on. I'm just working on what I have now, and that is assumptions that aren't THAT crazy.
SolarPowered
Member
Two gigabytes and I'd flip my shit with happiness. Hell, 1.5GB would have me giddy as a schoolgirl.AzureJericho said:
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Honestly Nintendo likely hopes to become the baseline. The hardware the games shoot for. That's why they seem to be launching earlier. Build a userbase, build relations, get set as the standard for the generation, and games that come out on the newer systems will get upgrades, but by then you've hopefully got a game buying marketbase that developers will want to exploit.
It's still strange that they didn't comment much on the console itself only saying: "The box is done it's all about the controller!" images of the console didn't show up untill after the E3 reveal.OrangeGrayBlue said:
There seems to be a thin line between Dreamcast-like failure and MegaDrive/PS2-like success. The system has to at least be in the Xbox 720/PS4 ballpark if only to show the difference between Wii U and Xbox 360/PS3.Thunder Monkey said:
-Pyromaniac- said:
I think the difference will be a lot less noticeable than the Wii to P60 and apart from the real enthusiast gamers, are most owners going to care if Wii U ran DX10 equivalent vs DX 11 on the others (As an example). Would we even care if the PS4 did 4K vs solid, sexy 1080? Maybe if we had 2m TVs.
Also, the Wii U controller is going to enable Nintendo to still target a casual/family market as it offers a lot of game possibilities that you can't get on a regular controller. These people probably can't really tell/care about the difference even between SD and HD movies.
-Pyromaniac- said:
We have to remember that a lot of the hardcore already know what console they're getting. A lot of us have our favourite systems so we can't factor those into the group of people who have to chose. With the rest, a controller that can work for all other 3rd party games on any system, as well as adding many more tablet like options could be a pretty big drawcard I think.
-Pyromaniac- said:
Yeah we don't know about online yet, but I imagine it's going to be vastly superior to anything else we've seen from them based on what Nintendo, EA and everyone else is saying.
Not sure if hard drive space will matter too much - maybe. If we get 8GB of flash that will probably work well for a downloadable games and saves etc. For optional game cache installations we can plug in an external drive. I don't have much problem with that.
-Pyromaniac- said:
Yeah, all we can do is speculate, hope, and wait I guess. I'm actually really hyped for Wii U. It seems to be pretty well established that it's more "powerful" than the P60 and games on that look damned sweet as it is. Add in the controller possibilities and the hope (Albeit possibly naive) that they will get a decent online/social system up and running and good 3rd party support, it could be great.
Oh and one more thing, when people say: "The Nintendo tablet or Wii U tablet or just tablet or tablet controller" Nintendo shouldn't come out and say: "No it's not a tablet at all!" like they did at E3. They should've just said: "Yes it's very much pretty much like a tablet with buttons!" and ride that tablet hypetrain.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
you may have no problem with it, just like PC gamers have no problem with the baggage of PC gaming, but every time you add an extra thing someone has to worry/think/inquire about, that's a loss of potential sales. I don't mind using something external either, but man if my two choices are better graphics (even if it's ever so slight), better online, and the option to install, which do I take....AzaK said:
Though I'll give Nintendo SOME props in that at least the controller as good potential uses, I could see myself seeing a game on 2 systems and seeing how useful the controller screen could be for inventory management or something, and I'd take that over the "regular" experience other consoles with likely offer.
ShockingAlberto
Member
So before we go forward, all of this is assuming-Pyromaniac- said:
A) The WiiU will be considerably weaker than the competition, to the point where anyone owning multiple systems will see no point in owning a multiplatform game on WiiU.
B) The PS4/XBox 3 will be considerably more powerful but will do this without high costs or taking massive losses, thus ensuring install base parity all around.
C) Due to the above, the WiiU multiplatform games will not succeed because it will get games but the games will not sell, thus ensuring it no longer gets games?
Am I following you so far?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
[QUOTE='[Nintex]There seems to be a thin line between Dreamcast-like failure and MegaDrive/PS2-like success. The system has to at least be in the Xbox 720/PS4 ballpark if only to show the difference between Wii U and Xbox 360/PS3.[/QUOTE]
Then I'd say all three are gearing up for a loss.
I doubt your average person will see that big of a difference between any of them and the PS3/360.
More detail, better grass. Better shadows. "This basketball game looks a little more real!"
We're getting to the point that the tech itself isn't hindering advancement, but what developers are willing to put into it. EA is likely up to whatever challenge the NFL or NBA bring them. But not too many developers can expect 4 million unit sales in a month either.
Then I'd say all three are gearing up for a loss.
I doubt your average person will see that big of a difference between any of them and the PS3/360.
More detail, better grass. Better shadows. "This basketball game looks a little more real!"
We're getting to the point that the tech itself isn't hindering advancement, but what developers are willing to put into it. EA is likely up to whatever challenge the NFL or NBA bring them. But not too many developers can expect 4 million unit sales in a month either.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
PS3 maybe, but 360 certainly wasn't. 360 actually managed to hold to PS2 pricepoints ($299 for the base SKU without memory) while Wii came in as the most expensive Nintendo console launch ever (at $249) and the first to essentially recycle it's predecessor chipset. The industry actually felt Wii was overpriced for what it offered initially, though the market felt differently.MadOdorMachine said:
Price arguments favoring Wii also sort of fall flat given the prices they were routinely going for on secondary markets (via resellers) too. PS3 may not have been able to swing $499, but Wii possibly could have.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
A) Considerably doesn't matter. It could be slightly weaker it could be much weaker. I'm just assuming it isn't on the same level. Basically I'm assuming the differences will be at least somewhat noticeable.ShockingAlberto said:
B) Again, I don't think they will be considerably more powerful, that's up in the air. But I think that releasing much later will enable them to have stronger internals at price that is still decent/good. I'm not saying because they release later they will have the most up date graphics, that's now how these work as you know, but later does mean they could use something at least a bit better and still maintain a good price point. As for parity, that's up in the air. Clearly the Wii-U has the biggest base but it's pretty meaningless. 360/PS3 are almost even, 360 still manages to sell a lot more games mostly.
C) It will get the games, but the games won't sell. What that leads to is up in the air. I'm not speaking for the consumer though, I'm speaking for Nintendo, I said that in my first sentence in my first post about it. For Nintendo it solves the support problem (at least at first, as far as we know), but they still won't sell. That doesn't do anyone any favours other than the lesser amount of people who buy that version of the game, which I'm speculating has the potential to be much less than the other 2.
So yeah you're almost following me, I know my thoughts are muddled, I'm just bored and trying to discuss something to pass the time. But it's not all that far-fetched. Nintendo seems to impose upon themselves limitations almost purposely. They say they want to solve certain problems but sometimes it doesn't fully show. Yes they'll get the support they seek, but what good is it when they don't sell? Who is benefiting outside of the fewer that choose to buy it?
Once again, could be totally wrong and Nintendo versions will sell more than everyone else and they've have the biggest most bestest base in the world, but it's not SEEMING like that will be the case.
AceBandage
Banned
If people cared just about power, they'd by everything on the PC and the PSP would have destroyed the DS.
Just saying.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but those don't count! It'll be different this time!
Just saying.
B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but those don't count! It'll be different this time!
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I already explained the difference above. They are on a totally different level. PC vs console is a BIG difference compared to console vs console.AceBandage said:
edit: I also said graphics aren't the only difference, I brought up online experience, hard drive, anything else the wii-u will be lacking. They'll have some of those but they won't be as good, it's looking like so far that is.
AceBandage
Banned
-Pyromaniac- said:
Ok, then let's compare console to console.
The difference between the Wii and the PS3/360 was huge, and a lot of multiplatform games still sold better on Wii.
Same with PS2 and XBox.
Userbase and all around library is a much bigger factor than graphics.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
The difference between the 360 and PS3 is very minor, but 360 still sold a lot more games back in the day (and still does in some cases). Base isn't EVERYTHING. If a base is much higher then yes there is a chance it could sell more games, that's common sense, but I'm saying there are other factors that are WORTH considering. And those are online capabilities, slight graphical differences, general market perception, etc...AceBandage said:
I'm not painting a doom and gloom picture, I'm admitting I could be wrong, but I'm just saying Nintendo isn't home free. They need to take some of these things into account before they release the final version. They need to get their shit straight in all these different categories, on top of continuing to do what they did right with the Wii. They need to make sure their hardware backs up the game they're playing, and they need to make sure the marketing re-enforces it. I just feel like they're undecided on where they want to go. The control is halfsy/halfsy, online still not as baked as the other options, hardware still seems a tiny bit of a question mark.
abstract alien
Member
I have no doubts that, when it comes to nintendo developed titles, the hardware is going to be spectacular. Its the fact that they forget not every studio has magic like them, and can't pull off the same things they do with such restraints that worries me. They tend to live in a damn bubble at times, and themstepping out of it, hasn't really been what we would have hoped for.-Pyromaniac- said:
Okay, so reading back on the last page or so, here's my thoughts:
Nintendo are starting next gen early to build up a solid relationship with developers and this a stable userbase with less casual gamers who are more concerned over cross platform AAA titles and 3rd party exclusives than anything else.
With this momentum, Nintendo gain a substantial headstart by the time the other two finally release their systems.
The WiiU and NextBox will be closely matched in power, with the PS4 sitting slightly ahead.
Due to this narrow margin of quality between the output of these consoles, developers have an easy time releasing games on all 3 consoles, a la Gamecube era.
From this, Nintendo will have to ensure their console is with picking over the other two.
This means online to rival Miveosofts already well estabilished network, and strong enough marketing to persuade people that tablet pads are the future/give you the upper hand.
This is all entirely possible, and indeed a perfectly likely scenario, providing Sony and Microsoft dont go down the power route again and Nintendo do enough for this E3 to woo developers into creating games specifically for the platform/utilising the controller effectively.
Oh, and that whole "online" thing Nintendo seem to be crap at.
That needs to be better.
Nintendo are starting next gen early to build up a solid relationship with developers and this a stable userbase with less casual gamers who are more concerned over cross platform AAA titles and 3rd party exclusives than anything else.
With this momentum, Nintendo gain a substantial headstart by the time the other two finally release their systems.
The WiiU and NextBox will be closely matched in power, with the PS4 sitting slightly ahead.
Due to this narrow margin of quality between the output of these consoles, developers have an easy time releasing games on all 3 consoles, a la Gamecube era.
From this, Nintendo will have to ensure their console is with picking over the other two.
This means online to rival Miveosofts already well estabilished network, and strong enough marketing to persuade people that tablet pads are the future/give you the upper hand.
This is all entirely possible, and indeed a perfectly likely scenario, providing Sony and Microsoft dont go down the power route again and Nintendo do enough for this E3 to woo developers into creating games specifically for the platform/utilising the controller effectively.
Oh, and that whole "online" thing Nintendo seem to be crap at.
That needs to be better.
AceBandage
Banned
TunaLover said:
You seriously underestimate duct tape...
Alebrije
Member
Nintendo Consoles will always have a market share enought to keep the company growing and developing new games, consoles, etc. There will be always an army of childrens that play by first time a Mario, Pokemon, Zelda game.
So Wii U do not needs great power to sell, an a PS3-XBOX 360 graphics level will be enought to keep happy those childres and older users. I think that Nintendo will use its resourses to improve their online service more than throw to the market a "state of the art" console.
So Wii U do not needs great power to sell, an a PS3-XBOX 360 graphics level will be enought to keep happy those childres and older users. I think that Nintendo will use its resourses to improve their online service more than throw to the market a "state of the art" console.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
[Nintex] said:
I think that has to do with how early of a build the Wii U was in at E3. Nintendo had probably only finalized their plans for the controller at that point, and even then I wouldn't be surprised to see some minor adjustments like we did with the Gamecube and Wii controllers.
I think the mistake people are making is to treat the Wii U reveal at E3 as it's big extravaganza. It was more of a teaser that went on for 25 minutes. Outside of Super Mario Bros Mii, which I really don't think will amount to anything more than Super Mario 128 did for the Gamecube, everything that was shown for the Wii U at E3 was either a tech demo or footage from the PS360 versions of the respective games. A big part of the reason people are doubtful of Wii U's power is because every game shown so far is either a basic proof of concept or a port that was still running on last gen hardware at the time. I really think next E3 will offer a much more comprehensive look into every aspect of the system (actually... does anyone doubt that?) and we'll see games that handily outdo the extremely early builds we saw four months ago.
I'd also like to add that Pyromaniac's argument that multiplatform titles won't sell on the Wii U due to being less visually stunning doesn't hold up at all. If we look back to a completely analogous situation, the PS2 launched as a weaker platform one year ahead of the GC and Xbox and received noticeably weaker ports. This had no affect on it's ability to sell games. In fact, the one year head start allowed it to not only outsell the other two, but outsell them combined (to put it gingerly)! Furthermore, this obviously means that for the first year of it's life, it won't even have PS4/720 versions to compare to. Whatever the AAA 3rd party title is for 2012, it will be on Wii U and gamers will either choose to get the system for it, or pass over that game entirely (or get a possible 360/PS3 version which, according to Pyromaniac, won't sell due to having subpar visuals).
Fourth Storm
Member
So can developers program their games to increase things like framerate and graphics effects if the game is being played in SD on the tablet? If so, it might give some motivation for people to pick up the Wii U version rather than the PS4/720 counterpart. They could really play up the tablet functionality in the process, which they seem to be focusing on anyway.
AceBandage
Banned
Fourth Storm said:
Likely, yes. Since the game would be running at a much lower resolution.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
As much as we look down on ports, if the Wii U really does ease the development of transitioning over established engines, then that means the possibility of port collections of this generations high profile games might be available at or around launch no? While new IPs are preferable, having those franchises on the system at all during launch will mean there wont be the dearth of 'hardcore' games that basically crippled the long term opinion of the system with ignorant 'core' gamers and publishers alike, no? Yes, i know tech limitations had a huge part to do with that, but publishers themselves have stated how they missed a huge opportunity at the Wii launch to cultivate a specific audience. These collections and ports can prove something to publishers and general public alike about the system's potential future as a home to these franchises and thus worth the investment. Sure, it may only be 2 or 3 collections in reality and nothing in serious numbers, but the possibility makes sense right?
specialguy
Banned
AceBandage said:
Graphics are proven to not matter as much in handhelds. That's different to consoles. If you want the best gfx you wont be playing on handheld anyway, as they'll never have the best graphics.
PC is beset by a host of other issues that prevent it from becoming as mainstream as console. Expense, complicatedness, hardware rat race, besides, not many games show off PC any more anyway.
AdventureRacing
Member
specialguy said:
Ok what about the wii?
phosphor112
Banned
I think, the differences between the PS360 and the Wii U will be a matter of aesthetics. If we are really to believe PS4/Xbox Next is coming out in 2014 (or MAYBE later) devs won't spend the time on making pretty graphics as they will be focusing more on things like physics, AI, and scripting.
EDIT: I forgot connectivity. Nintendo is still lacking severely behind the other two companies. Even with the help of EA, their system won't be matured nearly enough to even compete on a similar level with Sony or MS.
EDIT: I forgot connectivity. Nintendo is still lacking severely behind the other two companies. Even with the help of EA, their system won't be matured nearly enough to even compete on a similar level with Sony or MS.
bgassassin
Member
antonz said:
Exactly. We don't know what direction this possible choice tells us whether it's more power, low wattage, or even some kind of balance between that. The Juniper was also something I thought they might consider based on what we know. As I've been reading more and thinking about the usage of what was in the first dev kit, I wonder if it's plausible to believe we could see a "6000-series Cayman Jr." in Wii U.
Something that uses VLIW4 and an 8th gen. tessellator, maybe dual front-end engi ... nah that's expecting too much, so it can have possible room to grow down the line instead of peaking early. Yet has an ALU count and clock that's similar to an RV770 or Juniper. Something like that couldn't be simulated properly until the final hardware is finished. You would either have to put something in the dev kit that's way more powerful than your target, or put in something to simulate your target ALU count and clock rate. The latter would be the obvious choice since early dev kits always come short of the final. Just a current hypothesis influenced by the press release.
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
phosphor112 said:
I expect all three to be released by the end of 2013. I wouldn't be too surprised to see one of them at the end of 2012 either, just a couple months behind Nintendo.
bgassassin
Member
guek said:
Don't worry, we only have about six more months of this.
See ->phosphor112 said:
Nintendo could release a PS3-level disaster and still not blow through half their cash assets, but that doesn't mean they're actually gonna be that stupid. Moderate aggression however (3DS or PS2 level) is not out of the question. (Just to make it completely clear, I'm agreeing with Daschysta.)Daschysta said:
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I could see MS being the ones that do that.OrangeGrayBlue said:
SolarPowered
Member
Could Nintendo really hold on to all their hardware secrets until E3(or whatever blowout they have planned)? I know this is Nintendo we are talking about, but that seems like a real stretch...bgassassin said:
bgassassin said:
I am going INSANE.
Also, what's the past history of Nintendo/other competitors' differences in spec between first dev release and final product? I'm talking GPU/CPU wise.
If the first iteration development kits of the WiiU had a supposed RV770 GPU inside, how much better do you think we'll get?
Especially now we're expecting 28nm... or are we? Is this 'rumour' likely? Will it solely be for the purpose of low power consumption?
MDX said:
It'll be different this time around, I feel.
Nintendo will feel obliged to release some of their specs to the media for promotion purposes (especially if they're keen on showing how powerful the system, is in comparison to the 360/PS3).
It will only be a matter of time after launch that people take this thing apart anyway - a lot can be deduced from ripping a system in two and analysing/digitally testing the parts.
You're right though, some aspects simply can't be found without Nintendo telling us themselves - that is, if they choose to.
The 28nm thing depends on if it was planned from the start. I think the HD4000-based guesses are still the most likely outcome and most credible(that's what the Japanese site gamewatch(?) reported shortly after E3 as well). The 28nm might be just for the MoSys RAM since IBM already confirmed the 45nm process for the CPU. 28nm GPU and 45nm CPU kinda goes against the "Wii U is a SoC-design" speculation and the people who checked out the LinkedIn profiles for the engineers who made the chipset in India were pretty certain that the Wii U chipset is in fact a SoC and not a seperate GPU/CPU setup. I still think Nintendo will just do a seperate GPU/CPU setup, HD4000-based GPU, 2GB RAM, PowerPC7 and you pretty much already have a system that outclasses the Xbox 360 and PS3 in every way.Ubermatik said:
I don't think it's possible for them to say, "wait we'll just throw in a 28nm GPU now!" without planning it well before designing the actual chips.
[Nintex] said:
But surely this is the kind of thing you can only put in 'last-minute' - i.e. pre-production? Nintendo, if going with a 28nm chip, would have to have made do for now in regard to the dev kits, right?
But still, those specs regardless of a 28nm GPU or not are damn tasty. But are we really expecting 2GB RAM? It's certainly plausible I suppose, though I' be very happy with 1.5GB. Put simply, I'd rather be slightly surprised than slightly disappointed.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
Fuck just imagining a harvest moon in HD, same with animal crossing. Is that even possible? I seriously can't picture it in my mind. I lust for it.
Being able to manage inventory in a harvest moon game on the controller...FUUUCK.
/random
Being able to manage inventory in a harvest moon game on the controller...FUUUCK.
/random
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