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[AceBandage]

Publishers will probably be able to keep up with rising game development costs, but we're going to end up seeing things like Gears 3 where they take advantage of people with more money than sense.

You just called GoW the Fox News of games...

 

[SolarPowered]

I won't say it would be OMG GREAT but 2 gigs of ram definitely isn't disappointing at all.

I'm pretty sure most third parties would be shitting their pants with joy.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I'm pretty sure most third parties would be shitting their pants with joy.

no way, 8 GIGgZzZzzz
zz

 

[antonz]

I'm pretty sure most third parties would be shitting their pants with joy.

Yeah if Nintendo does 2GB it would be a fantastic thing. Im leaning towards 1.5GB myself but 2GB would go along ways in futureproofing even if the gpu ends up a good deal weaker in the long run

 

[Black-Wind]

I never buy any excuses as to why a giant company like Nintendo can't bring games over, when smaller companies have no problem doing it. Just do it in limited quantities or something. Atlus has no problem, NIS/Gust/whoever have no problem and their games are beyond niche. It's all about doing it in a smart way and I'm sure if they really wanted to they could figure out a way. Doesn't seem they desire to find away.

But the very fact that europe is getting a bunch of the games that should release in NA as well, and NA isn't getting them is borderline insulting by NoA.

I'm inclined to believe it because ... it's not a good excuse and it makes sense with the way they have been acting.

Its basically saying "Yeah, all you core Wii gamers ... we have given up on you, now either buy our big core 1st party titles or w/e because you're not getting this 2nd party core shit, we're not gonna bother trying to sell that" and thats not a nice message IMO.

A BS excuse would simply be saying something like "the games weren't up to the quality our fans expect".

Plus I believe thats likely why so many new 1st party IPs this gen haven't been core titles and thats why I expect that to change for WU. The way they try to make a console look is shaped through promos and the games they make so if they're trying to get core 3rd party titles and make this look like a core system then I think its prefectly reasonable to expect new core IPs and more JPN core titles to come over than the Wii had.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

They usually end up with us getting a game that destroys the tech demos completely. Will be a long wait for sure. End result should be mighty impressive. Just looking at what they can do with GCN level hardware should prove that.

Precisely. It happened with the N64 and the Gamecube. Even if the actual results Nintendo produces only match that demo we'd still be talking about one of the best looking games ever.

I can't even imagine how a Mario game would look. Super Mario Galaxy, aside from being at a lower resolution, competes with anything the HD twins have offered in my opinion. Mario on Wii U will be like Sony's "Toy Story in real-time" claim proving true.

I could care less for all this spec hype. We've already seen the bird demo and the Zelda demo and, based on those alone, I am absolutely floored by what the Wii U means for 1st party games.

 

[guek]

Yeah if Nintendo does 2GB it would be a fantastic thing. Im leaning towards 1.5GB myself but 2GB would go along ways in futureproofing even if the gpu ends up a good deal weaker in the long run

Am I understanding things correctly though when I assume the main reason nintendo wouldn't put in some obscene amount of ram is because it would likely make for an unbalanced system with clear bottlenecks?

Or is it simply due to price? I know console ram is not the same as PC ram, but I'd still expect the GPU and CPU to cost significantly more.

 

[bgassassin]

Could Nintendo really hold on to all their hardware secrets until E3(or whatever blowout they have planned)? I know this is Nintendo we are talking about, but that seems like a real stretch...

Honestly when I said six months that was being modest considering GDC '12. Remember all the things Nintendo showed after they first unveiled Revolution? I don't because there wasn't really anything shown. We got the controller reveal at TGS, but that was about it for anything significant till the next E3. Maybe they'll throw us a bone in the next few months, but I'm not getting my hopes up for anything till around next E3.

I am going INSANE.

Also, what's the past history of Nintendo/other competitors' differences in spec between first dev release and final product? I'm talking GPU/CPU wise.

If the first iteration development kits of the WiiU had a supposed RV770 GPU inside, how much better do you think we'll get?
Especially now we're expecting 28nm... or are we? Is this 'rumour' likely? Will it solely be for the purpose of low power consumption?

Here is a link I posted a little while back for the PS3. Just scroll down some.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5960218&&#post5960218

According to the poster and pics the first version has a 2.4Ghz Cell (final 3.2Ghz) and 256MB of XDR. The GPU was 430Mhz (final 550Mhz) and was a 7800 GTX. I didn't see any mention of how much memory the card had so I would assume 256MB of GDDR3.

Based on what I could find on the Xbox 360, it was an Apple G5 with a dual processor running at either 2 or 2.7Ghz (final tri-core PPE 3.2Ghz), 512MB of DDR3 memory with a Radeon x800 (my understanding is the final was a modified R500). And I believe the card had 256MB of GDDR3. It's also worth noting the 360 released six months after its E3 unveiling. So devs had way less time with it than they did with PS3, Wii, and Wii U. Makes me wonder if they'll try that again after the RRoD incident. But who knows they might try a 2012 release to still Nintendo's thunder.

Based on what lherre had said, there wasn't really anything to say Nintendo was going to use an RV770. I would assume what he said was based on paper specs Nintendo gave them, but that the first dev kit had a 4830. Considering the paper specs and that he said there was still info left out, it's pretty much up in the air right now as to how much better we'll see it.

I think the 28nm rumor is as likely as other things we've heard, so we would just have to wait for official confirmation. And the purpose could be to get the consumption as low as possible and/or bump the power.

The 28nm thing depends on if it was planned from the start. I think the HD4000-based guesses are still the most likely outcome and most credible(that's what the Japanese site gamewatch(?) reported shortly after E3 as well). The 28nm might be just for the MoSys RAM since IBM already confirmed the 45nm process for the CPU. 28nm GPU and 45nm CPU kinda goes against the "Wii U is a SoC-design" speculation and the people who checked out the LinkedIn profiles for the engineers who made the chipset in India were pretty certain that the Wii U chipset is in fact a SoC and not a seperate GPU/CPU setup. I still think Nintendo will just do a seperate GPU/CPU setup, HD4000-based GPU, 2GB RAM, PowerPC7 and you pretty much already have a system that outclasses the Xbox 360 and PS3 in every way.

I don't think it's possible for them to say, "wait we'll just throw in a 28nm GPU now!" without planning it well before designing the actual chips.

I know I thought they would copy the XCGPU to keep heat down, but this info changed that for me. I posted the LinkedIn profile link, but that was due to that 5+Ghz processor being mentioned not because I felt it was a SoC.

That said, to me with the investor mentioning both NEC and MoSys together gives me no reason to doubt that unless the size is wrong, Wii U will have a 28nm GPU with embedded 1T-SRAM. History is very strong to believe otherwise. I don't see any reason for it to be just the memory or why it would be important to mention the physical size just for the memory. I would believe saying the density or amount would be more significant.

I'm pretty much off the idea of the GPU even being R700-based unless we used a couple of aspects as the basis. And while I think the CPU is POWER7-influenced, I don't think it's cost effective to modify one for a console. It would probably be better to build it from scratch. I still think when it's all said and done we'll have a tough time categorizing the CPU and GPU under currently known categories. But I do agree that it will outclass PS360, even if it did just go with the first dev kit specs.

 

[antonz]

Am I understanding things correctly though when I assume the main reason nintendo wouldn't put in some obscene amount of ram is because it would likely make for an unbalanced system with clear bottlenecks?

Or is it simply due to price? I know console ram is not the same as PC ram, but I'd still expect the GPU and CPU to cost significantly more.

Nintendo generally goes for optimal performance in the system overall. If 1.5GB would lead to imbalances somewhere while 2GB would be perfect they would easily go 2GB.

 

[guek]

Nintendo generally goes for optimal performance in the system overall. If 1.5GB would lead to imbalances somewhere while 2GB would be perfect they would easily go 2GB.

Yes, but what I mean is is it possible that putting in 2GB of memory would be avoided if the GPU/CPU couldn't really utilize all of it

 

[SolarPowered]

Yes, but what I mean is is it possible that putting in 2GB of memory would be avoided if the GPU/CPU couldn't really utilize all of it

Yes, this is Nintendo we are talking about here.

 

[bgassassin]

Yes, this is Nintendo we are talking about here.

Seconded. Nintendo would stick with 1.5GB if they felt 2GB was unnecessary.

EDIT: Or at least old Nintendo would think that way. I don't know what the new "third-party friendly" Nintendo might do.

 

[BurntPork]

Seconded. Nintendo would stick with 1.5GB if they felt 2GB was unnecessary.

EDIT: Or at least old Nintendo would think that way. I don't know what the new "third-party friendly" Nintendo might do.

Yes. We all have to keep the rumors of third-parties convincing Nintendo to double the 3DS's RAM in the back of our minds. Also, Nintendo doesn't usually really skimp on RAM.

 

[Azure J]

Yes. We all have to keep the rumors of third-parties convincing Nintendo to double the 3DS's RAM in the back of our minds. Also, Nintendo doesn't usually really skimp on RAM.

Really? First time I'm hearing of this. Cool.

 

[Boney]

Really? First time I'm hearing of this. Cool.

Me too

 

[antonz]

Really? First time I'm hearing of this. Cool.

3DS did get a ram boost shortly before thing was finalized. COuld explain why some games in the same genre are suddenly being made superior performance wise etc to ones that were developed on old kits

 

[sfried]

3DS did get a ram boost shortly before thing was finalized. COuld explain why some games in the same genre are suddenly being made superior performance wise etc to ones that were developed on old kits

Which games would these be? Does that mean SSF43DEd was on an old kit, explaining why Namco Bandai could achieve 60fps in 3D mode?

Well, hopefully Nintendo would listen to Epic or its pundits, if only to garner more support from that type of crowd (although they have made crazy demands on MS when it came to RAM).

 

[wsippel]

3DS did get a ram boost shortly before thing was finalized. COuld explain why some games in the same genre are suddenly being made superior performance wise etc to ones that were developed on old kits

I'm not sure about that. I mean, according to Chipworks, we're looking at 128MB RAM (plus VRAM?), but the first leaked photos of a Panda unit showed 96MB available, whereas a Panda that popped up on eBay recently showed 64MB available. I doubt the latter was an earlier model. I could only imagine that Nintendo decided to reserve more memory for the OS, but wasting 50% of the total memory doesn't seem to make sense, especially if you consider the tiny footprint of the browser they use.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Which games would these be? Does that mean SSF43DEd was on an old kit, explaining why Namco Bandai could achieve 60fps in 3D mode?

No, the fact that SSF4 runs at 60fps in 2D mode confirms that it's not the RAM size holding it back, and it would be an unlikely cause in the first place. Tekken looks to just use simpler character geometry and no shadows, and extra time to get used to the hardware doesn't hurt.

 

[TwilightPrincess]

No, the fact that SSF4 runs at 60fps in 2D mode confirms that it's not the RAM size holding it back, and it would be an unlikely cause in the first place. Tekken looks to just use simpler character geometry and no shadows, and extra time to get used to the hardware doesn't hurt.

Tekken uses shadows and the character models look quite good in my opinion. But as you said, namco has more time too.

 

[bgassassin]

Battlefield 3 designer looking for killer Wii U idea

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/30706/battlefield-3-designer-looking-for-wii-u-ideas/

Patrick Liu thinks new console will prove sceptics wrong

Battlefield 3 was shown off during Nintendo's Wii U showcase at E3 but the game's lead designer has told Official Nintendo Magazine that he's still trying to think of a "breakthrough idea" for the new Wii U controller.

"We definitely see potential in the Wii U," Patrick Liu told us. "But I wish I had the breakthrough idea for how to exploit the new controller."

EA's big first-person shooter is coming to Xbox 360, PS3 and PC next month but with the Wii U not due for release until 2012, Liu still has plenty of time to come up with an idea.

He added: "We're definitely looking into what kind of new stuff we can do with Wii U. I don't have that idea yet.

"Nintendo has surprised us so many times before. I was one of the sceptics when the Wii came out and it proved us wrong. I think they're going to prove a lot of sceptics wrong again."

Earlier this year EA President Frank Gibeau said that Wii U had helped them uncover new ways to play Battlefield Wii U.

You can read more about Wii U in the November issue of Official Nintendo Magazine which goes on sale on Thursday 22 September.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Seconded. Nintendo would stick with 1.5GB if they felt 2GB was unnecessary.

EDIT: Or at least old Nintendo would think that way. I don't know what the new "third-party friendly" Nintendo might do.

Create a 512 MB RAM upgrade that wraps around the Wii U?

 

[bgassassin]

Create a 512 MB RAM upgrade that wraps around the Wii U?

That explains what the orange port is for.

 

[Dreamwriter]

People asking for 2GB RAM, thing you have to remember about Nintendo. They could have enabled HD graphics in the Wii with $5 more video memory. They chose not to. Nintendo does things, just because they want to. Sometimes the result is awesome. Other times it sucks. But there's no predicting it.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Tekken uses shadows and the character models look quite good in my opinion. But as you said, namco has more time too.

Ah you're right, I was going off some old images.

 

[Zoramon089]

People asking for 2GB RAM, thing you have to remember about Nintendo. They could have enabled HD graphics in the Wii with $5 more video memory. They chose not to. Nintendo does things, just because they want to. Sometimes the result is awesome. Other times it sucks. But there's no predicting it.

Considering the rest of the hardware, that would have been dumb

 

[TunaLover]

Battlefield 3 designer looking for killer Wii U idea

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/30706/battlefield-3-designer-looking-for-wii-u-ideas/

Battlefield 3 definitive version confirmed.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Battlefield 3 designer looking for killer Wii U idea

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/30706/battlefield-3-designer-looking-for-wii-u-ideas/

Sounds more like "We're already fucking busy, stop asking us."

 

[guek]

Battlefield 3 definitive version confirmed.

I'd buy it

 

[ZAK]

Battlefield 3 designer looking for killer Wii U idea

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/30706/battlefield-3-designer-looking-for-wii-u-ideas/

Sounds a lot like the Wii. "What an interesting idea! Now what do I do with it?"

 

[Plinko]

People asking for 2GB RAM, thing you have to remember about Nintendo. They could have enabled HD graphics in the Wii with $5 more video memory. They chose not to. Nintendo does things, just because they want to. Sometimes the result is awesome. Other times it sucks. But there's no predicting it.

You're comparing "Stuck in their ways" Nintendo to the new "Oh crap we've got to do something fast to fix things" Nintendo.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

You're comparing "Stuck in their ways" Nintendo to the new "Oh crap we've got to do something fast to fix things" Nintendo.

Agreed. Although if anything I would call this "We've got billions in a vault you say? Let's get drunk and drive through the city!" Nintendo. If anything, they're at their most wreckless right now. 2004-2006 Nintendo was their most cautious.

 

[Azure J]

Agreed. Although if anything I would call this "We've got billions in a vault you say? Let's get drunk and drive through the city!" Nintendo. If anything, they're at their most wreckless right now. 2004-2006 Nintendo was their most cautious.

I wouldn't say reckless as much as I'd say scrappy. Nintendo is aggressively addressing issues, be they big or small, quite rapidly and decisively even if the execution of their patchwork leaves a slight bit to be desired. (3DS slide pad cradle)

 

[manueldelalas]

I wouldn't say reckless as much as I'd say scrappy. Nintendo is aggressively addressing issues, be they big or small, quite rapidly and decisively even if the execution of their patchwork leaves a slight bit to be desired. (3DS slide pad cradle)

Aggressive Nintendo is best Nintendo IMO, also, the 3DS Slide Pad is not mandatory nor required for any game to play decently.

 

[TunaLover]

Yeah, Nintendo is more open now to suggestions from third parties, the circle pad attachment came from Capcom's petition, that could sound far fetch so time ago. I hope they continue strenght their 3rd party relationship, but not only with the big ones, they should target for all kind of support: NIS, VanillaWare, Atlus, Marvelous, etc...

 

[Übermatik]

I think they're listening more to what customers and developers want now than ever.
Gone are the days when they can make the call and build a system they know the public will buy - today, the consumer tells them what they want, not the other way around.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

They could have enabled HD graphics in the Wii with $5 more video memory. They chose not to.

It wasn't really that simple, was it? The choice to stick with slight modifications of Flipper and Gekko left limits decided on back in 1999 or 2000.

 

[Akai]

Gone are the days when they can make the call and build a system they know the public will buy - today, the consumer tells them what they want, not the other way around.

Sales show that consumers were QUITE happy with Wii. It was third parties, unfortunately, that ultimately killed the Wii...

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

It wasn't really that simple, was it? The choice to stick with slight modifications of Flipper and Gekko left limits decided on back in 1999 or 2000.

Not to mention Nintendo was totally unsure of how successful they would be with the Wii. To suggest that Nintendo will be as overly-cautious with the specs on the Wii U would assume that they're in the same plight as they were at the end of the Gamecube era which is, to put lightly, not the case. People can say all they want about underwhelming 3DS sales, Nintendo is hardly where they were in 2005.

 

[Übermatik]

Sales show that consumers were QUITE happy with Wii. It was third parties, unfortunately, that ultimately killed the Wii...

Yes, and those were 'the days' - even the millions of people that bought a Wii will have some persuading to upgrade to a new system. They'll keep asking the same question - "I'm quite happy here, why should I upgrade?"

However, third party developers are really the ones who are judging this system in the long run. nintendo needs to do as much as possible to please them.

 

[devildog820]

Yes. We all have to keep the rumors of third-parties convincing Nintendo to double the 3DS's RAM in the back of our minds. Also, Nintendo doesn't usually really skimp on RAM.

No, they totally do. Sure, they had the fastest memory in the Gamecube, but that didn't really matter as Xbox games looked better because the developers didn't have to spend a lot of budget optimizing code for fast memory instead of large memory.

Sales show that consumers were QUITE happy with Wii. It was third parties, unfortunately, that ultimately killed the Wii...

Yes consumers were happy with the Wii, specifically Wii Fit and Wii Sports (and Netflix apparently). Third parties had a difficult time developing for the Wii and a low chance for success. I would say the business decisions Nintendo made regarding the Wii "killed" it.

 

[TekkenMaster]

Nintendo has *always* been super cautious, not just in 2004-2006.

Nintendo 64 - no disc media
GameCube - 1.5 Gig mini DVD, no online
Wii - low processing power, lack of HD graphics, lack of DVD playback, mediocre online

 

[marc^o^]

Yes, and those were 'the days' - even the millions of people that bought a Wii will have some persuading to upgrade to a new system. They'll keep asking the same question - "I'm quite happy here, why should I upgrade?"

Nintendo adressed this question you ask the best they possibly could:
1. Keeping wiimote/nunchuks as central controllers for lots of games = no need to rebuy peripherals for multiplayer games
2. Giving an incentive to the 40 million owners of a balance board to use it more frequently through the tablet, without needing to put on TV
3. Bringing a clever innovation with the tablet acting as a second screen, which will change the games probably more than HD graphics
4. HD graphics, Nintendo franchises will look better than ever

If priced correctly, Wii U will be huge, I can smell it.

 

[manueldelalas]

Nintendo has *always* been super cautious, not just in 2004-2006.

Nintendo 64 - no disc media
GameCube - 1.5 Gig mini DVD, no online
Wii - low processing power, lack of HD graphics, lack of DVD playback, mediocre online

The Wii was Nintendo being cautious??? WTF are you talking about?

If anything, both, the Wii and DS were Nintendo being irrational and insane.

The whole concept was a HUGE risk, both consoles were much riskier than anything Nintendo, or any other console manufacturer had ever done. All I'm reading is madness, complete and pure madness.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

In the XBox/PS2/Gamecube generation, the systems weren't able to display enough polygons to make 3D modeling the most expensive part of making a game. Those systems were maxxed out by system power for the most part.

The PS3 and XBox 360, however, are different beasts - do you think every PS3 game looks like Uncharted, every XBox 360 game like Gears of War? Even other games from the same publishers? Of course not. It's because those games got over $10 million development budgets that they look so good. If the Wii-U is capable of displaying games at the quality of those games, but at 1080p and 60fps, then that's all it needs, 99% of games made wouldn't look any better at all even if the competition was capable of rendering a modern Pixar movie in realtime.

You know what most of the cost of making a Pixar movie is? Making 3D models and animating them. The more you are willing to push a modern game system, the closer you are to requiring Pixar-level 3D modelling and animation. More power in the end really just means more detail, which takes an artist longer to make.

So how much did Crysis 1 cost to make? You know the game that maxed out PC at its time?

And 10 million dollars is nothing when it comes to game development. The games you mentioned sold millions of copies, of course they wouldn't sell as well if they looked like shit.

There will always be games that look better than others, this is nothing new.

 

[Fantastical]

It is kind of shocking that Nintendo is planning on selling only one controller that comes with the system and allowing you to use Wiimotes and nunchucks with it.

I'm sure Nintendo made a metric fuckton of money on controller sales with the Wii as all companies do.

 

[manueldelalas]

It is kind of shocking that Nintendo is planning on selling only one controller that comes with the system and allowing you to use Wiimotes and nunchucks with it.

I'm sure Nintendo made a metric fuckton of money on controller sales with the Wii as all companies do.

It's all good news; Wiimotion+ + nunchuck is an excellent controller that was used in far too few games, and I think the only proper game we will get with decent Wiimotion+ implementation in all of the Wii's life will be Zelda...

Separated hands >> traditional controllers.

 

[abstract alien]

Nintendo has *always* been super cautious, not just in 2004-2006.

Nintendo 64 - no disc media
GameCube - 1.5 Gig mini DVD, no online
Wii - low processing power, lack of HD graphics, lack of DVD playback, mediocre online

Honestly, I find Nintendo to be the most wild of the three, and quite easily. They make the most risky choices and design things that can actually change gameplay in a lot of instances. MS never does anything(until now, due to the wii) and Sony would do side projects(stuff like eye toy), but neither would put their real evolutionary/revolutionary ideas to the forefront. It's always a side addition. Sega was the last hardware company to really push things the same way Nintendo has.

At least, that's how I've seen it over the years. Maybe I'm just jaded.

 

[StevieP]

No, they totally do. Sure, they had the fastest memory in the Gamecube, but that didn't really matter as Xbox games looked better because the developers didn't have to spend a lot of budget optimizing code for fast memory instead of large memory.

Cite. Find me articles that *don't* talk about the GPU advantage.

Yes consumers were happy with the Wii, specifically Wii Fit and Wii Sports (and Netflix apparently). Third parties had a difficult time developing for the Wii and a low chance for success. I would say the business decisions Nintendo made regarding the Wii "killed" it.

The Wii has sold the most software this console generation. This includes first and third party titles. (Joker has charts if you want them)

 

[MDX]

Nintendo has *always* been super cautious, not just in 2004-2006.

Nintendo 64 - no disc media
GameCube - 1.5 Gig mini DVD, no online
Wii - low processing power, lack of HD graphics, lack of DVD playback, mediocre online

You mean affordable