The Nintendo Groose.
Now you know what the orange port is for.
[Nintendo Groosenator would be acceptable too]
Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012
- Thread starter bgassassin
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The Nintendo Groose.
Now you know what the orange port is for.
[Nintendo Groosenator would be acceptable too]
Was it? I thought he knew someone who worked at a company where people weren't impressed.
I just hope Nintendo will not remake the Wii show, I mean, just put a new controller with a simple Xbox 360...
I mean, Nintendo needs to be more close power with PS4/Xbox 3, just to not lose the multiplatform games...
It could be cool if the WiiU is the PS2 or Dreamcast when the PS4/Xbox 3 are GC/Xbox 1...
I mean, Nintendo needs to be more close power with PS4/Xbox 3, just to not lose the multiplatform games...
It could be cool if the WiiU is the PS2 or Dreamcast when the PS4/Xbox 3 are GC/Xbox 1...
Yeah, exactly. He said he works for a business that has never worked with Nintendo before (or anyone in the games industry for that matter?). I just wonder which company it is. Come on, DownWithTheShip, give us a clue!
It's always interesting to see Nintendo work with unlikely partners. Hm, maybe it's Acer?
bgassassin
Member
^ We don't won't him to get in trouble. 
That was another poster. Can't recall the username right now.
That was another poster. Can't recall the username right now.
Wuper Nintendo
cartman414
Member
Haha. Wooper shaped console?
bgassassin
Member
That would explain something I believe I saw that seemed to intimate there was a change. Wasn't anything specific, just that the language was different compared to later info.
I hope E3 next year is similar to this one. Hype through the stratosphere, game montage after game montage, fantastic stage presence...probably their best E3 ever.
bgassassin
Member
That was due to the soldering used, not the heat itselft. They didn't change the clock speeds after that happened FWIW.
100% agree; by Wii show, I didn't meant the Wii presentation, but the fact that the Wii is an overclocked GameCube. I don't want to have an overclocked Xbox 360.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
If you look back at launch day-1 year, it wasn't just the solder. It was the X-clamps, fans, thermal paste, and overall thermal design. Buddy of mine did reflows for years so I got a pretty early lesson on the bad Xenon design. But you are correct, MS never changed clock speed, but the fact remains that if the console had been running cooler...those issues wouldn't have existed in record #'s.
What makes it even more interesting is that Red Steel was built on assets stripped from a cancelled 360 game called Killing Day. So one has to wonder what the current situation would have looked like for Nintendo had they stuck with those original Revolution specs.
TwilightPrincess
Member
Wasn´t Killing Day a PS3 title? interesting info, thanks.
I just watched this through, and it strikes me how well thought out the presentation was, and how well the audience were treated - two long showreels of games, and some great demonstrations.
They know how to reveal a console, so I don't doubt the impact they'll make in 2012.
I anticipate a huge blow out of games, support, details and demonstrations.
Honestly, we know so little that they I've so much to tell us next year at E3.
I can't wait! It'll be great to see how they hold out against a possible XBOX/Playstation reveal.
bgassassin
Member
Thanks for the extra info, but to me that still says that it was how they built it and not the heat itself since it didn't happen to everyone.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
Well all I was getting at is that the two are sometimes joined at the hip in a closed console. You don't put 40nm (3GHz<) hot chips inside a compact 360 shell and expect it to not have problems, regardless if some people don't experience issues. The Xenon's were about 50% I imagine with some sort of fault long term. And it was the heat itself that caused issues, if not for the heat the solder wouldn't have softened and cracked once it dried, the X-clamps wouldn't have warped, the thermal paste wouldn't have been ruined. The heat from a added DVD-Rom not withstanding.
In fact when MS added the 2nd heatsink you could open a box and about half the time a couple of the fins on the HS were melted...that was caused by heat. So yes the fact it was a poor cooling design was a major factor too, probably half the reason but the other reason was heat. And the fact that it took them 4 revision to stop huge #'s of faulty boxes goes to show how difficult it was to "solve" the heat issue (the Jasper revision was the first "stable" ver, Revision #4 2009).
Which brings me to my main point. The Wii U just based on reported dimensions and look, is smaller than a phat 360, more compact and barely bigger than a Wii. And correct me if I'm wrong but so far we still believe the CPU will be 40nm? What about the GPU? Obviously Nintendo will build a far superior cooling design than MS, but their not Hogworts wizards. I think 3.2GHz is pushing it for this design/dimension with the die size we can somewhat confirm, I wouldn't be surprised to see Nintendo cut back to 2.6-2.8GHz on the CPU. Just my hunch, but we'll see. That, or they go for a bigger more ventilated shell.
Wasn't there already a rumor going around that the devkits were overheating?
ShockingAlberto
Member
I would not at all be surprised to find out the XBox 3s die en masse like the 360s did.
FYI, the CPU is 45nm, which is official info from IBM.
What are you thinking the limit for the GPU is in terms of SPUs and clock speed? Also, do you think that GDDR5 is possible in that shell?
bgassassin
Member
LOL @ ShockingAlberto
Oh I don't want to sound like I'm making the heat itself irrelevant. I'm just saying MS didn't (or couldn't due to type of issue and could only learn from it) take the right steps to in the beginning to address the heat.
I think they were still at 90nm when the RROD problem happened. So yeah they kind of pushed the issue with that early on.
As for Wii U the CPU is 45nm. The GPU is still unknown, but I do believe they are pushing for 28nm. As you pointed out there was overheating and it was the GPU. And lherre said they were using the "ugly retail version" so that would mean to me they are using a small case. I have a tough time believing they would go with a hot chip if they weren't planning on a die shrink.
Oh I don't want to sound like I'm making the heat itself irrelevant. I'm just saying MS didn't (or couldn't due to type of issue and could only learn from it) take the right steps to in the beginning to address the heat.
I think they were still at 90nm when the RROD problem happened. So yeah they kind of pushed the issue with that early on.
As for Wii U the CPU is 45nm. The GPU is still unknown, but I do believe they are pushing for 28nm. As you pointed out there was overheating and it was the GPU. And lherre said they were using the "ugly retail version" so that would mean to me they are using a small case. I have a tough time believing they would go with a hot chip if they weren't planning on a die shrink.
I think they are. Just look at the GCN vs Xbox 1. Twice (maybe more) as small, yet almost equally as powerful.
They just used more efficient parts. That's what it came down to.
AceBandage
Banned
Hogwarts Wizards are a step down from Nintendo magic, actually.
>_>
>_>
TheExplodingHead
Banned
My mistake retard moment for some reason 40nm was smacking me in the face, but it's really hard to say what they'd do for GPU clock speeds, in theory they could pump it up to 700MHz for a custom chip as long as it was cooled properly, the reality is probably close to or less than 500MHz. It would still outperform the Xenos easily even being lower clocked these days, obviously. If Nintendo intends on sticking to these compact dimensions, and knowing Nintendo's attention to reliability. We should really be looking towards mobile (notebooks not phones) architecture and performance as a base. It gives Nintendo a bit of a horizon on the reliability as well as being able to be competitive in a smaller package. The Wii U for a modern console is tiny, it's really no surprise they don't intend to even offer a attachable HDD which dumps even more heat...
And I doubt they'll be using GDDR5 at all.
And the number of SPUs? Do you think 640 is possible, or is it most likely 320?
Why don't you think they'll use GDDR5? Cost or heat?
Considering they now have two WiiU controllers up and running, I also want to suggest Wii Too.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
GDDR5? Firstly and most definitely cost. This is Nintendo, why invest into that when there are cheaper and easier alternatives. There's nothing to say they won't go for it, but I highly doubt they'd opt for the more expensive option.
SPU's? I'm gonna go off the rocker here and say 640. I think it's going to be comparable maybe even based on a decent mobility card, basically a custom nerfed/underclocked 4850/4860. At least that's what I hope... To be honest though I'm not too up-to-date on all the details of mobile GPU's/SPU/memory/etc. So maybe I don't have a valid opinion there, but it won't be GDDR5 I'd bet my left kidney.
AceBandage
Banned
Actually, RAM is the one thing Nintendo doesn't go cheaper on.
They always use super fast RAM for their systems.
Wii R U
In addition to what Ace said (remember that the Wii uses both 1T-SRAM and GDDR3), RV770 has a 256-bit bus, which requires more chips. We discussed this earlier, and concluded that using an RV740 with GDDR5 would produce similar results with less chips. Which sounds like the better choice to you, given cost and the size of the console?
TheExplodingHead
Banned
Maybe so, but with the increased costs of this system as opposed to the others they may change that trend, more gains are met imo using older/more Ram. I mean they could certainly do it, but it just seems like a contradiction to where the market is right now and the price point they hope to hit. Nobody would be negatively effected using GDDR3, cheaper to make and sell and plenty capable.
I think this system will be overpowered on the GPU side, and a lot of that may have to do with the streaming functions of the console. Regardless of how "free" some people may think that aspect is on the hardware side.
Respond to my post, please. I think that they would want to keep the number of chips as small as possible, yet rumors point to an RV770 with GDDR3 in the dev kits.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
That would be under my hopes for the final hardware, but certainly possible. But even based on RV740 what are the odds we'll see a somewhat substantial underclock? Going purely off heat related issues and overheating rumors, I guess that depends on how "custom" it is. I would prefer a 4850-level baseline performance but RV740 sits nicely for price and power. I guess GDDR5 is the only dark horse but like I said GDDR3 works just fine for what the system needs. And like you said we're playing with limited space and budget.
The 4850 is an 800 SPU part. In all honestly, the RV740 with GDDR5 seems to be a far more efficient use of space. Smaller GPU and less memory chips.
brain_stew
Member
Lower cost is precisely why Nintendo would go with GDDR5. Its cheaper to hit a given bandwidth target with GDDR5 than it is with DDR3/GDDR3, especially when taken over the course of a generation. Being able to halve the memory bus width is no small saving.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
You schooled me there, as I said I'm really not the person to talk to when it comes to GPU tech details. But how much cheaper are we talking per part on the manufacturing line? I tend to think that's where Nintendo's focus will be, rather than what saves them bandwidth on the board. From my spider senses, Nintendo will value what is cheaper on the line and the temps in the box over any performance or technical gain. I could be wrong though.
Not only that, but over the course of a generation is too far reaching for me to buy into Nintendo embracing. They certainly haven't embraced that philosophy with the Wii or 3DS. I just get the feeling what is cheaper and doable right now is what Nintendo will choose.
At the end of the day you could be correct, I just don't see Nintendo jumping on that. And yeah the 4850 is a 800 SPU part, but there isn't going to be a 800 SPU part in the Wii U I just hope that it can come close to the parts' performance, with a somewhat nerfed custom chip. In my mind if you're a very conservative fiscal company like Nintendo, you develop a custom part (like the 4770/4850), test it out, nerf it where needed to accommodate costs and functions and get the best deal on memory. GDDR5 may be the cheaper option, I've always heard the opposite but could be wrong. But if it isn't cheaper for the "stuff you can kick" in 2012 (i.e. not technical/O & 1's related) than I think Nintendo will opt for the cheaper option. But I'd actually be interested in knowing what would be physically cheaper next year?
Half the memory bus means half the chips, so I'd imagine that the savings would be significant. A smaller memory bus is also much more simple.
I think Nintendo might go with a bigger shell, because of their whole philosophy of it just "being a box" and perhaps to increase appeal with the dudebro-crowd because BIGGER MEANS MORE POWERFUL!
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
I don't know why people keep saying this.
Xbox is a step above the GC just like the GC is a step above the PS2.
That being said, GC's design is quite efficient and elegant compared to PS2's or Xbox's.
AceBandage
Banned
The GC was the most well designed electronic device ever.
The insides were a piece of art and it was sturdy as hell.
I still don't understand the
AceBandage
Banned
We know very little.
It'll have a modern GPU.
At least 1GB of RAM.
It'll have a Power7 CPU.
It'll be produced by Nintendo.
We'll probably never get another system like that from Nintendo thanks to all the jackasses that didn't buy the system because it was "kiddy" and now complain about the company's casual shift.
TheExplodingHead
Banned
Yeah well until the disc drive failed... Always the weakest link in consoles these days, long term. But the GC was pretty epic, encompassed everything Nintendo hardware should stand for in it's time.
Here's an idea, why didn't Nintendo just opt to get rid of the DVD drive altogether? Talk about a way to eliminate some heat, and make the console even smaller! But...Nintendo choose the days' the cheaper option, lol. But seriously I'd love to see Nintendo get rid of the Rom and just put games out on 32-60GB flash media, it would be an improvement.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
AceBandage
Banned
Will?
Both of these have already happened.
The problem is that physical media is far too expensive to produce for consoles. And it can't be made in the enormous quantities that discs can.
I mean, just take RE:R on the 3DS for example.
A 4GB card is forcing Capcom to raise the price on the game as it is.
Can you imagine trying to do that with a 32 or 60GB card?
Insanity.
And no, you can't use SD cards. They aren't the same thing and aren't as fast or as stable as specialty made products like the 3DS and Vita cards.
We've come up with some solid speculated specs at this point:
- CPU will be a Power7 tri-core, 2.5-3.2Ghz with asymmetric cache.
- The GPU will be a very evolved version of a RV700 GPU, so evolved that it'll probably have an added tesselator and other modern features. It will have a SPU count ranging from 640 to 800 and a clock count of 500-600Mhz.
- Available to this GPU will be 32MB of eDRAM
- 1 to 2 GB of DDR3 RAM
I expect the final product to be the above.
AceBandage
Banned
It's well well above the PS3/360.
The bigger question is where it compares to the 720/PS4.
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