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[phosphor112]

Listening to Carmack's Keynote just shows how much consoles need to catch up, and how much people trying to push tech struggle to get things going on them. Hopefully Sony and MS will realize current consoles are "10x" less powerful than PC's (according to Carmack), meaning they really need to catch up.

 

[antonz]

Listening to Carmack's Keynote just shows how much consoles need to catch up, and how much people trying to push tech struggle to get things going on them. Hopefully Sony and MS will realize current consoles are "10x" less powerful than PC's (according to Carmack), meaning they really need to catch up.

While it is true PC Graphics technology has accelerated far faster then perhaps anticipated it has come at costs. Cards are hot and big and suck power like a crack addict. Thats all things that have to be overcome for a console

 

[phosphor112]

While it is true PC Graphics technology has accelerated far faster then perhaps anticipated it has come at costs. Cards are hot and big and suck power like a crack addict. Thats all things that have to be overcome for a console

I'm not talking just about power, but efficiency as well. Devkits, etc. Consoles are far behind.

 

[specialguy]

While it is true PC Graphics technology has accelerated far faster then perhaps anticipated it has come at costs. Cards are hot and big and suck power like a crack addict. Thats all things that have to be overcome for a console

On the flip side, the "arms length" API on PC's means you can get PC like results on consoles with far less raw power.

A console with 5X the power of 360 can probably easily exceed a PC with 10X.

So a mid range GPU on a console will get you results that exceed the high end hot power suckers once placed in a console setting.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Interestingly, Epic's president did throw out some numbers.



http://www.industrygamers.com/news/epic-president-whats-the-point-of-next-gen-consoles/

Does he mean means 3x or 4x in an order of magnitude (which is 30/40x) or just 3x/4x? The latter seems more reasonable and makes more sense.

When the Xbox 360 launched EA mentioned it was 4x more powerful than its predecessor. I think its just a number people tend to throw out and does not roughly equate to anything.

 

[Dash Kappei]

damn so many tech pro's @ GAF

 

[timcsavage]

On the flip side, the "arms length" API on PC's means you can get PC like results on consoles with far less raw power.

A console with 5X the power of 360 can probably easily exceed a PC with 10X.

So a mid range GPU on a console will get you results that exceed the high end hot power suckers once placed in a console setting.

I'm not an expert on APIs for PC/consoles but isn't the Xbox 360 similar in forcing things to go through its (whatever version it has) DirectX API to access certain functions that would be quicker directly?

Are there additional ones on PC that are necessary due to having a full-scale OS doing it's thing in the background and a much greater variety of hardware?

 

[lherre]

Only an observation about all your talk. You are speaking about prices, etc, you know that ps3 was very expensive at first mostly because of the blu-ray drive (it is better to say blu lens), right? (not a problem or a significant cost now ...) I mean sony has now more room to throw money on other components than in ps3.

And I repeat, the gap between ps3 and ps4 will be very big. And between wii U and ps4 (only with the difference in amount of memory will be big too).

 

[Mr_Brit]

What would it cost Nintendo to redsign the WiiU caseing to accomodate heat dissipation?

I'm assuming it wouldn't be much.

It wouldn't really cost much since the console hasn't entered production yet.

 

[Bert]

I'm not an expert on APIs for PC/consoles but isn't the Xbox 360 similar in forcing things to go through its (whatever version it has) DirectX API to access certain functions that would be quicker directly?

Are there additional ones on PC that are necessary due to having a full-scale OS doing it's thing in the background and a much greater variety of hardware?

Not a tech head at all, so could be well of the mark, but wouldn't APIs like that be more efficient on the 360 as they are programmed for only one chipset, rather than having to rely on another layer of abstraction to hide the details of the specific card on PCs?

 

[Nessus]

I mean sony has now more room to throw money on other components than in ps3.

Quite possibly, but you have to figure that Sony's shareholders aren't exactly happy with the PlayStation division losing over a billion dollars in the last few years, largely due to them selling cutting edge hardware at a loss.

Similarly the shareholders must have seen how successful Nintendo has been at selling underpowered hardware and yet still beating their competitor's far more capable machines, and may be wondering what the benefit of selling a high end console at a loss is.

Especially as the whole video game industry continues to find the transition to HD rather perilous (Team Bondi being the latest casualty), it being considerably more difficult to turn a profit on games that cost tens of millions of dollars to develop, and that's without even maxing out current gen hardware.

The shareholders aren't gamers, they don't care about graphics, and probably couldn't tell the difference between good graphics and bad graphics.

I'm not saying this would be a positive development, but I would be shocked if the shareholders and management at both MS and Sony aren't wondering if they can prolong this generation or release new consoles that are only moderately more powerful than the current ones as a means of shortening the turnaround before they start to become profitable.

 

[Bert]

Quite possibly, but you have to figure that Sony's shareholders aren't exactly happy with the PlayStation division losing over a billion dollars in the last few years, largely due to them selling cutting edge hardware at a loss.

Similarly the shareholders must have seen how successful Nintendo has been at selling underpowered hardware and yet still beating their competitor's far more capable machines, and may be wondering what the benefit of selling a high end console at a loss is.

Especially as the whole video game industry continues to find the transition to HD rather perilous (Team Bondi being the latest casualty), it being considerably more difficult to turn a profit on games that cost tens of millions of dollars to develop, and that's without even maxing out current gen hardware.

The shareholders aren't gamers, they don't care about graphics, and probably couldn't tell the difference between good graphics and bad graphics.

I'm not saying this would be a positive development, but I would be shocked if the shareholders and management at both MS and Sony aren't wondering if they can prolong this generation or release new consoles that are only moderately more powerful than the current ones as a means of shortening the turnaround before they start to become profitable.

The problem with the shareholder issue logic is that it treats each part of a company as an island, when in fact some areas are designed to support the others.

Both Sony and MS got into gaming to support their other businesses. Sony won the Blu Ray war with PS3 and push their media services through it. MS are looking to get Windows into your living room and push Zune through it. It's all part of an overall plan, the fact that the gaming doesn't make money isn't important as long as it's adding enough value to the other areas of the business.

EDIT: Think of it like advertising. No shareholder would say "Hey this advertising department isn't making any money, let's get rid of it"

 

[jump_button]

Wii U really should come out with a wii mote+ and add a charger

 

[alexthekid]

Im sure you guys read this before but i need to get this of my chest. The WiiU is so fucking retarded that i hope they will cancel it(they would never do that). I consider myself a pretty big nintard(since SEGA died, SEGA forever) and I cant even see myself buy it from how it looks now.

For me a big part of a Nintendo has always been local multiplayer. So it is really disturbing to me that they release a console without a controller that the local multiplayer games where designed for. I know that you probably will be able to play smash with both wiimote and the new thing. But 2 people with wiimotes and one with the new one. Seems odd to me.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

The problem with the shareholder issue logic is that it treats each part of a company as an island, when in fact some areas are designed to support the others.

Both Sony and MS got into gaming to support their other businesses. Sony won the Blu Ray war with PS3 and push their media services through it. MS are looking to get Windows into your living room and push Zune through it. It's all part of an overall plan, the fact that the gaming doesn't make money isn't important as long as it's adding enough value to the other areas of the business.

EDIT: Think of it like advertising. No shareholder would say "Hey this advertising department isn't making any money, let's get rid of it"

While both you and Nessus make very valid points, you must also take into consideration that the amount of money lost is probably the most important factor. In the case of Sony, they lost billions, that sort of loss reverberates through out the entire company. Which is why I believe they went relatively conservative the PSV. I would not be surprised if they continued that approach with the PS4.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Im sure you guys read this before but i need to get this of my chest. The WiiU is so fucking retarded that i hope they will cancel it(they would never do that). I consider myself a pretty big nintard(since SEGA died, SEGA forever) and I cant even see myself buy it from how it looks now.

For me a big part of a Nintendo has always been local multiplayer. So it is really disturbing to me that they release a console without a controller that the local multiplayer games where designed for. I know that you probably will be able to play smash with both wiimote and the new thing. But 2 people with wiimotes and one with the new one. Seems odd to me.

Relax mate, nothing has been finalized yet.

 

[BurntPork]

With a few 'core' titles, such as Vigil's Darksiders II, on the release schedule for Wii U, what do other hardcore studios think of Nintendo's upcoming console? There are few with more hardcore cred than id Software, and studio president Todd Hollenshead offered some perspective.

"I haven't really had a chance to sit down with [John] Carmack about it, because it's his opinion that matters. From what Nintendo is saying, [the Wii U] looks interesting, but it still remains to be seen how it fits within how id Tech 5 would run on it, is the audience right for us to develop games on that platform."

Might there be any chance of id's current project, Rage, showing up on Nintendo's Wii following the release of the Xbox 360, PlayStation 3 and PC versions this October?

"For Rage, as much as Nintendo might not like to hear this, id Tech 5 is too much tech for the Wii. We're not doing a crappy version of Rage on the Wii. If you play the PC, the PS3, the 360 version, you get all of it. All the media's the same. We didn't make the crippled version that somebody wishes they had some other platform to play on."

Looks like for now, though id Software has spread its development focus across multiple platforms in recent years, it's still not quite ready to make the jump to Nintendo.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1186239p1.html

Hm. He doesn't seem to like Nintendo much. I mean, Wii U can obviously run id Tech 5 at least as good as current consoles, yet he's saying that he's not sure it can run it at all. It just seems like he doesn't wand to work on Nintendo platforms. So, yeah, I'm not counting on Wii U getting any games from id.

 

[SolarPowered]

I'm guessing games built from the ground up should look noticeably different.

It is actually pretty comforting to hear that Darksiders won't be all that different from it's current gen counter parts. If anything, it means that getting mid-late generation visuals from the WiiU is easy and that is encouraging.

All I want is for it to offer options that allow noticeable upgrades for third party titles. If they can manage noticeably better visuals with real effort then Nintendo's titles are sure to blow my mind. I wouldn't mind seeing what they could do with a 360, but I'd REALLY prefer to see what they can do with something that is just a notch above at least.

 

[Mr_Brit]

http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1186239p1.html

Hm. He doesn't seem to like Nintendo much. I mean, Wii U can obviously run id Tech 5 at least as good as current consoles, yet he's saying that he's not sure it can run it at all. It just seems like he doesn't wand to work on Nintendo platforms. So, yeah, I'm not counting on Wii U getting any games from id.

He's talking about Wii, not Wii U.

 

[Zoramon089]

http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1186239p1.html

Hm. He doesn't seem to like Nintendo much. I mean, Wii U can obviously run id Tech 5 at least as good as current consoles, yet he's saying that he's not sure it can run it at all. It just seems like he doesn't wand to work on Nintendo platforms. So, yeah, I'm not counting on Wii U getting any games from id.

He said the WII.

 

[BurntPork]

He's talking about Wii, not Wii U.

He said the WII.

I'm talking about the first paragraph.

"I haven't really had a chance to sit down with [John] Carmack about it, because it's his opinion that matters. From what Nintendo is saying, [the Wii U] looks interesting, but it still remains to be seen how it fits within how id Tech 5 would run on it, is the audience right for us to develop games on that platform."

I might be reading into it too much, but it sounds like he's saying he's not sure if it would run at a level he considers acceptable.

 

[Soroc]

I think he is just saying they don't have a fucking clue what the specs for it are yet or a development kit.

I think you are reading too far into his statement.

 

[Chaplain]

I might be reading into it too much, but it sounds like he's saying he's not sure if it would run at a level he considers acceptable.

Then Wii U's future seems very dark from a market leader point of view.

Gamers do not want to downgrade when buying new hardware, they want to upgrade to better tech.

 

[Zoramon089]

Then Wii U's future seems very dark from a market leader point of view.

Gamers do not want to downgrade when buying new hardware, they want to upgrade to better tech.

Is this a joke post? This is the type of thing I'd expect from a junior

 

[wsippel]

I might be reading into it too much, but it sounds like he's saying he's not sure if it would run at a level he considers acceptable.

You do. He simply doesn't know, because Carmack either doesn't know or hasn't told him yet. That's all there is to it.

 

[Zoramon089]

You do. He simply doesn't know, because Carmack either doesn't know or hasn't told him yet. That's all there is to it.

Carmack more than likely doesn't know. Nintendo flew out a bunch of devs to show them the HW before E3 and Carmack declined to work on Rage...some people said, "Well, devs probably share specs with each other" but then that would defeat the point of flying out multiple devs for personal sessions

 

[Chaplain]

Is this a joke post? This is the type of thing I'd expect from a junior

I speak from my own experience. From people at my work, who have all heard the Wii U might not be as powerful as 360 or PS3, and they do not want to switch systems if Nintendo's hardware does not upgrade their existing hardware in several ways (Online & Graphics for example).

Again, this is what I see from multiple people who currently own multiple systems. Just my two cents on the subject.

 

[abstract alien]

To say nintendo's tech isn't upgrading is ludicrous. It may not be upgrading in the areas you want it to, but the system is capable of doing things well beyond what we have today from a gameplay perspective on consoles. I almost think everyone would be ok if they just released a classic controller along with PS4 level graphics and called it "the next generation of gaming". I, for one, wouldn't be excited at all.

Different strokes I guess.

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'm talking about the first paragraph.

I might be reading into it too much, but it sounds like he's saying he's not sure if it would run at a level he considers acceptable.

He also said

I haven't really had a chance to sit down with [John] Carmack about it, because it's his opinion that matters.

So what does Carmack have to say about WiiU?

"It should be a slam dunk to move over to Tech 5 games on there. We haven’t had that discussion yet as a company, but it seems technically like it’s a valid target, so I’m always happy to go ahead and get a new box in and see what it takes to bring it up and see the pros and cons of the choices they made. I think they probably made a fairly intelligent decision with the Wii U,"

"I think there may be more good uses of that [Wii U tablet] than [there are for] the current generation with Kinect and Move... there’s clearly a subset of games for which things like that are appropriate for,"

"We’ve been going on with how can we use those types of motion things with Rage and it’s hard to take a game that’s fundamentally designed around a controller and get value out of doing some of those other things, while adding extra touch interfaces there, that seems like something that almost every game could make some use of without it being just like, 'Oh, we have to do something like this.' Because if you remember, when the DS came out, there was a lot of talk about how, ‘Isn’t this going to be just a gimmick?’ But really it did turn out to be quite a good interface to build on."

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/...m-dunk-for-id-tech-5-games-says-john-carmack/

So Carmack seems very open to WiiU and whats possible (using iD tech 5 & Rage) with a touch screen and HD visuals.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

I speak from my own experience. From people at my work, who have all heard the Wii U might not be as powerful as 360 or PS3, and they do not want to switch systems if Nintendo's hardware does not upgrade their existing hardware in several ways (Online & Graphics for example).

Again, this is what I see from multiple people who currently own multiple systems. Just my two cents on the subject.

Although specifics on the Wii U's online component have not been revealed yet, the most recent statements from devs say that the hardware is more capable than ps360.

 

[BurntPork]

I speak from my own experience. From people at my work, who have all heard the Wii U might not be as powerful as 360 or PS3, and they do not want to switch systems if Nintendo's hardware does not upgrade their existing hardware in several ways (Online & Graphics for example).

Again, this is what I see from multiple people who currently own multiple systems. Just my two cents on the subject.

It's definitely more powerful than PS3 and 360. Where did they hear that?

 

[snesfreak]

Im sure you guys read this before but i need to get this of my chest. The WiiU is so fucking retarded that i hope they will cancel it(they would never do that). I consider myself a pretty big nintard(since SEGA died, SEGA forever) and I cant even see myself buy it from how it looks now.

For me a big part of a Nintendo has always been local multiplayer. So it is really disturbing to me that they release a console without a controller that the local multiplayer games where designed for. I know that you probably will be able to play smash with both wiimote and the new thing. But 2 people with wiimotes and one with the new one. Seems odd to me.

Heh, didn't know Nintendo fans called themselves nintards.
It's usually trolls that hate Nintendo (and their fans) that do that.

Spoiler

Fuck the Genesis! Super NES for life!

 

[AceBandage]

They'll definitely get two UTabs running on the system before it launches.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

It's definitely more powerful than PS3 and 360. Where did they hear that?

Exactly, people just need to do a bit of research. That sort of question was kind in the air a few weeks after E3, however since then, I think an idea of how capable the system is beginning to solidify albeit quite slowly.

 

[The Bookerman]

http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1186239p1.html

Hm. He doesn't seem to like Nintendo much. I mean, Wii U can obviously run id Tech 5 at least as good as current consoles, yet he's saying that he's not sure it can run it at all. It just seems like he doesn't wand to work on Nintendo platforms. So, yeah, I'm not counting on Wii U getting any games from id.

Like he said, it's carmack's call and carmack seems to be interested in it.
Carmack on Wii U

 

[Zoramon089]

I speak from my own experience. From people at my work, who have all heard the Wii U might not be as powerful as 360 or PS3, and they do not want to switch systems if Nintendo's hardware does not upgrade their existing hardware in several ways (Online & Graphics for example).

Again, this is what I see from multiple people who currently own multiple systems. Just my two cents on the subject.

Who are these people? What does you last statement have to do with anything?! More importantly, why do these people you work worth have more credibility than devs actually working on the system. Clearly you can see how ridiculous everything in your post is

They'll definitely get two UTabs running on the system before it launches.

I see two as a good number. Enough that 4 player team based games (2v2) are possible but still very doable tech wise, I'd think. They'd at least have to get 2 working so games like Madden allow each team they're on personal screen for plays. I'm wouldn't be surprised if EA didn't bring up this concern with Nintendo

 

[DaSorcerer7]

It is actually pretty comforting to hear that Darksiders won't be all that different from it's current gen counter parts. If anything, it means that getting mid-late generation visuals from the WiiU is easy and that is encouraging.

All I want is for it to offer options that allow noticeable upgrades for third party titles. If they can manage noticeably better visuals with real effort then Nintendo's titles are sure to blow my mind. I wouldn't mind seeing what they could do with a 360, but I'd REALLY prefer to see what they can do with something that is just a notch above at least.

Agreed, many people ignore this.

LoL, Sometimes I wish Factor 5 was still around, at least they knew how to push Nintendo's tech to get sweet results.

 

[AceBandage]

Well, this time around, it won't take Factor5/Nintendo Magic to push the system.
The Wii U is using a completely standardized architecture that developers have been using for ages now.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Wii U is almost certainly going to be superior to Xbox 360 and PS3 in almost everyway. I have little doubt about that. Developers don't even have final kits yet. It's silly to make a judgement based on little information.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Well, this time around, it won't take Factor5/Nintendo Magic to push the system.
The Wii U is using a completely standardized architecture that developers have been using for ages now.

True.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

The Wii U is using a completely standardized architecture that developers have been using for ages now.

agreed.

 

[donny2112]

Is this a joke post? This is the type of thing I'd expect from a Game Analyst

Fixed.

Spoiler

Sorry. Too easy to pass up. :lol

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Well, this time around, it won't take Factor5/Nintendo Magic to push the system.
The Wii U is using a completely standardized architecture that developers have been using for ages now.

Still would not hurt the WiiU at all to have a dev that could tap its full power and potential for awesome visual eye candy

a few games that look far beyond what people see from the best of PS3 would not hurt the console at all - after just getting by with SD Wii games I'm sure many fans would love to see something that gives a true WOW feeling

 

[SolarPowered]

Well, this time around, it won't take Factor5/Nintendo Magic to push the system.
The Wii U is using a completely standardized architecture that developers have been using for ages now.

Indeed

 

[AceBandage]

Still would not hurt the WiiU at all to have a dev that could tap its full power and potential for awesome visual eye candy

a few games that look far beyond what people see from the best of PS3 would not hurt the console at all - after just getting by with SD Wii games I'm sure many fans would love to see something that gives a true WOW feeling

And that's where Retro comes in with a Space Federation game.

 

[blu]

I speak from my own experience. [and what might that be?] From people at my work, who have all heard the Wii U might not be as powerful as 360 or PS3, and they do not want to switch systems if Nintendo's hardware does not upgrade their existing hardware in several ways (Online & Graphics for example).

Again, this is what I see from multiple people who currently own multiple systems.

People own multiple systems incl a WiiU?

Just my two cents on the subject.

Darn inflation.

 

[RPGamer92]

So I haven't really read through the thread, but what's the general consensus on what the price will be? With rumors of PS3 getting a price drop this fall and MS responding to that if it does as well as Nintendo learning their lesson from charging a lot for the 3DS and that not doing good, would $250 be a safe bet for the price?

 

[AceBandage]

So I haven't really read through the thread, but what's the general consensus on what the price will be? With rumors of PS3 getting a price drop this fall and MS responding to that if it does as well as Nintendo learning their lesson from charging a lot for the 3DS and that not doing good, would $250 be a safe bet for the price?

$250-300, more than likely.

 

[BurntPork]

So I haven't really read through the thread, but what's the general consensus on what the price will be? With rumors of PS3 getting a price drop this fall and MS responding to that if it does as well as Nintendo learning their lesson from charging a lot for the 3DS and that not doing good, would $250 be a safe bet for the price?

I'd say $300. I still think that $250 is a pipe dream, especially considering how Wii sold for the first two years at that price.

 

[AceBandage]

I'd say $300. I still think that $250 is a pipe dream, especially considering how Wii sold for the first two years at that price.

Completely different scenario, though.
There's very little chance that Nintendo will have software that captures the market like WiiSports did at the launch of the Wii U.