Will there be an Apple "Steam Machine" ?

Will there be an Apple "Steam Machine"?

  • Yes, from Apple and others

    Votes: 8 19.5%

  • Not from Apple, but from other companies, yes.

    Votes: 22 53.7%

  • There will be a fight of OS

    Votes: 1 2.4%

  • There will be a fight for the living room, but not OS

    Votes: 3 7.3%

  • There will be many Steam Machine clones fighting for living room space.

    Votes: 7 17.1%
  • Total voters
    41
Geometric-Crusher

Geometric-Crusher

"Nintendo games are like indies, and worth at most $19" 🤡
I think Valve opened a Pandora's box and, in a way, triggered a war for PC games, a war of operating systems.

Proton helped convert games to Linux; I doubt it would be difficult for Apple engineers to make a Proton for the Mac, or even a small box to plug into the TV and sponsor the entry of the Mac into the living room.

One thing is certain: there will be dozens of Steam Machine clones soon. In fact, some Chinese companies are probably already making one right now to use with some version of Linux or even Windows. Every company that has a PC store is indirectly compelled to create its own OS and console; even Sony could make a version of the PlayStation OS and enter into a collision course with Windows.

Perhaps this is Valve's plan, the final push to break the gaming monopoly that exists on Windows, and by association break the monopoly of Windows itself. One thing is certain: Sony will not abandon its leading position in consoles, but if this battle royale happens, we could see a Sony OS because, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about.
 
Can't wait for that Pippin 2, baby!
ZfVM5SGdPK0UzdK3.jpeg
 
All those worn-out GPU chips that have been churning out AI video youtube shorts are going to be repurposed into a gaming machine.
GPU chip retirement home, playing games before they go 'POOF' and never render again. :(
 
Geometric-Crusher said:
I doubt it would be difficult for Apple engineers to make a Proton for the Mac
Click to expand...
This is where you lost me. You know that a team of software engineers at Valve have been working on Proton full-time for 7 years, right? And they started with a base of the open source WINE project that has been in constant development since 1993. This isn't the kind of software you can build "at scale". If you have unlimited money like Apple, you can't just hire 32,000 people to work for a year and end up with the same result as 1,000 people working for 32 years.

However, Apple actually did this a few years ago and rolled out the Game Porting Toolkit to run DX12 games on Macs natively. Guess what? Almost nobody used it. The difference here is that Steam wants to run the Windows games unmodified in real time, and Apple wants developers in charge of porting their games to Mac (so they can stay in Apple's walled garden) and certifying the code.

It just isn't that profitable for Apple to go the direction you're thinking. They're too busy making billions of dollars on app store phone garbage.
 
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Geometric-Crusher said:
Every company that has a PC store is indirectly compelled to create its own OS and console; even Sony could make a version of the PlayStation OS and enter into a collision course with Windows.
Click to expand...
I don't think you understand the difficulty in creating an OS or the absolute chokehold Windows has on consumer PC.

Most PC gamers aren't going to be buying a Steam Machine to replace their existing system. I can see them buying one to put in a room with a TV, but it's not replacing a gaming PC under anyone's desk.

I'd be curious to see how this thing benchmarks for productivity tasks.

The port to PC pipeline has been well established in most studios for years at this point. In fact, most are building for PC first.

As for Apple, I doubt it. I'm sure their research has also shown that everyone with a macbook has a gaming PC, or a console. Why would I choose to play on my macbook when I can play on one of those other things?
 
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Geometric-Crusher said:
Proton helped convert games to Linux; I doubt it would be difficult for Apple engineers to make a Proton for the Mac
Click to expand...

So far Apple has only done the Rosetta stuff that converts x86 software made for MacOS to ARM, but they haven't done anything with converting APIs like DirectX to their Metal API.

It takes a while though to make these compatibility layers, especially because different games can do custom or weird things in a version of DirectX you have to account for.

If Apple really cared, I think they'd have done it already, but it will take years to make a good one if they do...and I think Valve or others will do it before they do.
 
Durin said:
So far Apple has only done the Rosetta stuff that converts x86 software made for MacOS to ARM, but they haven't done anything with converting APIs like DirectX to their Metal API.

It takes a while though to make these compatibility layers, especially because different games can do custom or weird things in a version of DirectX you have to account for.

If Apple really cared, I think they'd have done it already, but it will take years to make a good one if they do...and I think Valve or others will do it before they do.
Click to expand...
There is a DX12 porting toolkit and some other functionality that could help. Crossover (3rd party) does a pretty decent job allowing you to play PC games on Apple.
 
Durin said:
So far Apple has only done the Rosetta stuff that converts x86 software made for MacOS to ARM, but they haven't done anything with converting APIs like DirectX to their Metal API.
Click to expand...
Wrong, there are already multiple paths for this:

  • D3DMetal - pretty self-explanatory this one is, it's a translation layer developed by Apple to convert DX11/12 API calls to Metal
  • DXMT - Open-source version that essentially does the same, direct translation of D3D calls to Metal. Only supports DX11, but people have found it generally has better performance in DX11 than D3DMetal
  • DXVK - this was the OG since Vulkan has long been supported on Mac with MoltenVK (which translates Vulkan to Metal). It has pretty high compatibility but performance can be really rough with shader stutter since the calls are getting translated twice.

Anyway, to answer OP's question: no. There will not be an Apple Steam Machine unless the entire PC industry moves away from x86 to ARM. Graphics APIs aside, which to your point is a solvable problem a la Proton, microprocessor architecture is a completely different story. Valve hasn't even written a native ARM version of the Steam application yet, and we're 5 years into the Apple Silicon era.
 
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Maybe, but every other ASUS, Gigabyte, OEM or the world will probably spin one up. I've been rocking BeeLinks around the house for years and I love them. You turn your house into the Starship Enterprise real quick with these things and some surplus work monitors.

I was just looking at getting my beefiest BeeLink ever. The $300ish level. I've got to see where the Cube stacks up, but I'll be checking on it for my living room for sure.
 
Geometric-Crusher said:
I think Valve opened a Pandora's box and, in a way, triggered a war for PC games, a war of operating systems.

Proton helped convert games to Linux; I doubt it would be difficult for Apple engineers to make a Proton for the Mac, or even a small box to plug into the TV and sponsor the entry of the Mac into the living room.

One thing is certain: there will be dozens of Steam Machine clones soon. In fact, some Chinese companies are probably already making one right now to use with some version of Linux or even Windows. Every company that has a PC store is indirectly compelled to create its own OS and console; even Sony could make a version of the PlayStation OS and enter into a collision course with Windows.

Perhaps this is Valve's plan, the final push to break the gaming monopoly that exists on Windows, and by association break the monopoly of Windows itself. One thing is certain: Sony will not abandon its leading position in consoles, but if this battle royale happens, we could see a Sony OS because, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about.
Click to expand...

You are all over the place with this so not going to try, but I'll just point out that there is one common denominator between SteamOS/Linux, Windows and even Mac for all of this:

8DRbfb.png


Not the OS. Just Steam. I don't know what war you think there is going to be when Steam client exists on everything.
 
No. There is no way in hell or heaven that Apple will create a joystick friendly operating system - and MacOS is horrible to work with in a big screen when you are 'far' away.

But, with SteamOS officially avaliable in a desktop pc, have a mini pc besides videogames in a living room is a very neat idea.
 
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phant0m said:
Wrong, there are already multiple paths for this:

  • D3DMetal - pretty self-explanatory this one is, it's a translation layer developed by Apple to convert DX11/12 API calls to Metal
  • DXMT - Open-source version that essentially does the same, direct translation of D3D calls to Metal. Only supports DX11, but people have found it generally has better performance in DX11 than D3DMetal
  • DXVK - this was the OG since Vulkan has long been supported on Mac with MoltenVK (which translates Vulkan to Metal). It has pretty high compatibility but performance can be really rough with shader stutter since the calls are getting translated twice.
Click to expand...

Ok, I didn't know about D3DMetal, but the other 2 seem irrelevant to me because they're made by groups outside of Apple. I was only responding that Apple is likely not going to be the one to make a game translation layer that's effective vs some other party doing it for them.
 
Zero reason for an Apple gaming box to ever exist... this is coming from someone who loves Mac computers and their silicon hardware, for work at least.

Valve has become the king of PC gaming by so many years of hard work, like building the absolute best store and then developing entire compatibility layers that keep huge numbers of releases working smoothly on Linux with zero developer porting required.

Apple, on the other hand, usually can't even be bothered to update its GPU drivers to accommodate typical gaming needs, and just expects everyone who wants to release a game on their hardware to do a ton of custom work to support it. Night and day difference.

phant0m said:
Wrong, there are already multiple paths for this:

  • D3DMetal - pretty self-explanatory this one is, it's a translation layer developed by Apple to convert DX11/12 API calls to Metal
  • DXMT - Open-source version that essentially does the same, direct translation of D3D calls to Metal. Only supports DX11, but people have found it generally has better performance in DX11 than D3DMetal
  • DXVK - this was the OG since Vulkan has long been supported on Mac with MoltenVK (which translates Vulkan to Metal). It has pretty high compatibility but performance can be really rough with shader stutter since the calls are getting translated twice.

Anyway, to answer OP's question: no. There will not be an Apple Steam Machine unless the entire PC industry moves away from x86 to ARM. Graphics APIs aside, which to your point is a solvable problem a la Proton, microprocessor architecture is a completely different story. Valve hasn't even written a native ARM version of the Steam application yet, and we're 5 years into the Apple Silicon era.
Click to expand...
these are cool, but from my experience they barely move the needle for gaming ports, compared to something like the whole Proton setup from Valve, because devs still have to do a lot of work to get their game moved over -- instead of it just working for most titles as it does o Steam linux setup.

And they make so many things frustrating for gaming. I want to use some old emulators that I simply can't because Apple's OpenGL support has been totally broken and deprecated for years... so you're left with hoping for vulkan or a setup to actually use the d3d metal bit etc, which often isn't a good option.

And still zero real support for VR that is good enough for any of the store fronts (neither Oculus nor Steam) to be bothered to offer support.
 
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Topher said:
Not the OS. Just Steam. I don't know what war you think there is going to be when Steam client exists on everything.
Click to expand...
It's Os, there is no "PC" what exists is Windows, but Valve is using its Steam store to promote another OS.
They are on a collision course with Microsoft and could be kicked out of Windows soon.
 
Apple? They already have the Apple TV and seem determined not to update it to an M chip. As for clones, there already are plenty of PC's out there running bazzite etc. Will someone release a small form factor PC with it pre-installed - maybe?
 
poppabk said:
As for clones, there already are plenty of PC's out there running bazzite etc. Will someone release a small form factor PC with it pre-installed - maybe?
Click to expand...
for sure

Valve opened a Pandora's box; what's coming next will be very annoying. They'll flood the market with these little boxes.
 
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Durin said:
Ok, I didn't know about D3DMetal, but the other 2 seem irrelevant to me because they're made by groups outside of Apple. I was only responding that Apple is likely not going to be the one to make a game translation layer that's effective vs some other party doing it for them.
Click to expand...
They literally made their own Game Porting Toolkit (GPTK), which D3DMetal was the centerpiece of.

Apple's funny about games, they do things like this (GPTK) and people are like.... are they getting serious about gaming now? And then they'll disappear and not say anything or offer anything else for YEARS. Or do bone-headed stuff like pay devs/publishers to port their games to Mac but only exclusive to their own App Store, which doesn't support delta updates. Every time Ubisoft updates the Mac App Store version of AC Shadows you have to download all 110GB again.
 
Geometric-Crusher said:
It's Os, there is no "PC" what exists is Windows, but Valve is using its Steam store to promote another OS.
They are on a collision course with Microsoft and could be kicked out of Windows soon.
Click to expand...

PC doesn't exist and Windows does? lol....another one of your wild takes.

But no, Microsoft cannot kick Steam out of Windows. It is an open platform. Valve never needed Microsoft's permission to create an app there in the first place.
 
ResurrectedContrarian said:
these are cool, but from my experience they barely move the needle for gaming ports, compared to something like the whole Proton setup from Valve, because devs still have to do a lot of work to get their game moved over -- instead of it just working for most titles as it does o Steam linux setup.

And they make so many things frustrating for gaming. I want to use some old emulators that I simply can't because Apple's OpenGL support has been totally broken and deprecated for years... so you're left with hoping for vulkan or a setup to actually use the d3d metal bit etc, which often isn't a good option.

And still zero real support for VR that is good enough for any of the store fronts (neither Oculus nor Steam) to be bothered to offer support.
Click to expand...
100% - you need an application to manage a lot of those things, just like Steam does. GPTK is meant for devs, not end users.

CrossOver is the best user-friendly app for that today, which not only manages which translation is used on a per-game basis, but will also install all the needed dependencies and tweaks needed for games it has configurations for. Like, you can just fire it up, click Install > Diablo IV and it will download the b.net client, run the D4 installer and any needed dependencies/libraries just like Steam. Then you click Run and it just works.

But the number of available titles is waaaay less (I'd guess 10%?) of the linux-compatible games on SteamOS.
 
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Geometric-Crusher said:
for sure

Valve opened a Pandora's box; what's coming next will be very annoying. They'll flood the market with these little boxes.
Click to expand...
What Pandora's box? There are already a million emulation handhelds and also miniPCs with windows. All Valve are doing is releasing a small form factor PC with a game centric OS installed. Others could have done this previously but didn't, doubt many will start now, most customers would still prefer a Windows install.
 
phant0m said:
They literally made their own Game Porting Toolkit (GPTK), which D3DMetal was the centerpiece of.

Apple's funny about games, they do things like this (GPTK) and people are like.... are they getting serious about gaming now? And then they'll disappear and not say anything or offer anything else for YEARS. Or do bone-headed stuff like pay devs/publishers to port their games to Mac but only exclusive to their own App Store, which doesn't support delta updates. Every time Ubisoft updates the Mac App Store version of AC Shadows you have to download all 110GB again.
Click to expand...

Wow....and yeah that sounds like Apple. They'll randomly put some work into games, bring some devs/publishers on for a sec to remind people they exist in the space, and then expect everyone to jump through proprietary hoops instead of support some cross-platform standards. It worked for iOS when they popularized the smartphone touch form-factor, not so much when MacOS is like 15% percent of the global desktop/laptop computing market.

Last time I paid any attention was Valve pushing MoltenVK.
phant0m said:
Every time Ubisoft updates the Mac App Store version of AC Shadows you have to download all 110GB again.
Click to expand...
That's pretty crazy, but I swear Microsoft's store with game pass apps will make me re-download whole games with updates. Pacific Drive had an update for me today, somehow is 16gb which was the same size of the initial installation. Never had the problem on Steam.
 
It's called the Apple TV. They have support this stuff by allowing you to sync up a PS controller (they even have them in the Apple Stores), but it seems pretty half hearted.

It's even more odd given the fact they make a killing on video games in the App Store. If they made a slick first party controller and said join it to your Apple TV and play all these console style games ... I'd think there would be at least a chance of some success. Maybe they don't want it to detract from the idea of playing on your phone.

Apple is pretty strange about games in general.
 
Apple has already entered the space. They have been going after a few game developers (e.g. Capcom) but they are not fully engaged yet. I think that will happen and when it does, everyone will notice.
 
Apple doesn't even properly support gaming on their own hardware now. No way they're making a console IMO.


But yes, we'll see Asus/MSI/Lenovo/etc.. making their Steam Machine clones the same way they made Steam Deck clones.
 
Apple occasionally talks a big game, then nothing ever happens. I think everybody at Apple is just too old to care about gaming. I can't imagine Tim Cook or Craig getting on stage for a conference and talking about gaming in any way that was not laughable. If the majority of the Apple fanbase is just happy to play mobile games then Apple doesn't really need to respond. They are huge in the mobile space because of the Iphone, but that kinda happened in spite of Apple. They just had convient tech to play games.
The last thing I remember was about 3-4 years ago, Gamekit I believe, the Apple Version of Proton. Nothing since then.
 
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why Valve can easily do 'steam machines'?

1. Steam OS or even Window can run majority of game
2. they got store library ready which is Steam.

Apple has none of this. they can push to make it happen but things not gonna happen overnight.
 
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Apple is capable. I had the newer generation Apple TV and it actually ran games quite well when it wasn't overheating itself and slowed itself down. That was on an Older Iphone chip but pretty impressive with some of the graphic capabilities. If Apple got it's shit together they could put one of those M1 or M2 chips in a box and would be a powerhouse. There is one major flaw with Apple. The Apple tax. If they built it like that they would charge too much.
 
Gamer79 said:
Apple is capable. I had the newer generation Apple TV and it actually ran games quite well when it wasn't overheating itself and slowed itself down. That was on an Older Iphone chip but pretty impressive with some of the graphic capabilities. If Apple got it's shit together they could put one of those M1 or M2 chips in a box and would be a powerhouse. There is one major flaw with Apple. The Apple tax. If they built it like that they would charge too much.
Click to expand...
The iPhone 17 can run the latest version of Resident Evil 4 I believe. Not too shabby. Also, they would never have sales on the games,
whatever they initally price games at would stay that way forever.

What games were overheating your Apple TV? I mostly used Arcade on the Apple TV, never heated up, but those are mobile games. But I do remember the Sonic Racing game going into a slide show when hitting a turn. LOL!!!
 
Sorcerer said:
The iPhone 17 can run the latest version of Resident Evil 4 I believe. Not too shabby. Also, they would never have sales on the games,
whatever they initally price games at would stay that way forever.

What games were overheating your Apple TV? I mostly used Arcade on the Apple TV, never heated up, but those are mobile games. But I do remember the Sonic Racing game going into a slide show when hitting a turn. LOL!!!
Click to expand...
Horizon Chase 2 and some others. It was so bad that I even bought a usb fan to put underneath and barely helped. This was from day one. Other less demanding apps worked pretty good.
 
Gamer79 said:
Horizon Chase 2 and some others. It was so bad that I even bought a usb fan to put underneath and barely helped. This was from day one. Other less demanding apps worked pretty good.
Click to expand...
I've heard about this on Apple forums. I played that game and didn't experience that, but perhaps did not play long enough. I believe the current model doesn't even have a fan; that's something that needs to be addressed when the newer comes out.
 
I don't know if Apple would release a gaming device like the Steam Machine as Apple doesn't do general public friendly pricing and they'd probably feel it is beneath them.

They could release a box but price it like their VR headset and charge $2500 for it, but as mass consumer product like Steam Machine could be, I can't see it.
Didn't they just release a coloured carry sock for $250? can you imagine the cost of a home console? The pricing just isn't in their portfolio.
 
kiphalfton said:
Only reason they have done half as well as they have is due to their products being a status symbol.
Click to expand...
They are successful because they make products that get out of the way and just work and also feel premium. Which tinkerers and enthusiasts often hate with a passion but the reality is most people want their tech to interoperate well and just work.

This whole status symbol stuff is just anti apple talking points. Doesn't come close to explaining the company's performance. They aren't perfect but they are often a lot better than the competition.
 
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Geometric-Crusher said:
I think Valve opened a Pandora's box and, in a way, triggered a war for PC games, a war of operating systems.

Proton helped convert games to Linux; I doubt it would be difficult for Apple engineers to make a Proton for the Mac, or even a small box to plug into the TV and sponsor the entry of the Mac into the living room.

One thing is certain: there will be dozens of Steam Machine clones soon. In fact, some Chinese companies are probably already making one right now to use with some version of Linux or even Windows. Every company that has a PC store is indirectly compelled to create its own OS and console; even Sony could make a version of the PlayStation OS and enter into a collision course with Windows.

Perhaps this is Valve's plan, the final push to break the gaming monopoly that exists on Windows, and by association break the monopoly of Windows itself. One thing is certain: Sony will not abandon its leading position in consoles, but if this battle royale happens, we could see a Sony OS because, at the end of the day, that's what it's all about.
Click to expand...
There won't be an Apple Machine because Apple makes infinitely more money elsewhere. Also that machine would be $999 at a minimum.
 
If Apple had a few very optimized exclusive games like they have movies and shows on Apple TV then it could be tempting eventually. But they have zero interest in anything except mobile games which suck 99/100 times.
 
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