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[jagowar]

Can you give me an example of a full-screen metro app that I would use that wouldn't be better on the desktop? I honestly can't think of one.

Onenote MX... imo its absolutely better on metro than the desktop version. I really look forward to the rest of office getting that same treatment and seeing what they can come up with (that radial menu will be key).

I would even say the games on metro are better than their desktop counterparts (solitare, minesweeper, etc). Now you could port xbox live for the seamless integration to the desktop and add all the extra game modes to those versions of the apps but after doing that I would still prefer the metro implementation.

I even am starting to prefer the metro apps to going to various websites for that same info (news,sports,people,etc)

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

I usually go with : "People like simplicity and there is a lot more of those people than power users".

I can see my mom and my sister stick exclusively to apps. They really don't need much out of their PC's beyond email, Facebook and perhaps Word. I'll never use an App because of it's lack of interaction or integration into the desktop. But that's just me as a "core user". But I feel that they will be hugely popular with the less tech-savy crowd. Big buttons, unified interface, in your face menus, pretty colors. That stuff will work. I mean, it's nothing magical. iOS/Android both introduced the idea of apps and Microsoft is just following along.

I just hate that Metro is forced unto all users. A checkbox disabling the interface and restoring the start menu would have been great. Let it be on by default, my mom and sister won't think twice about it. I just want to have the option.

I agree, but some people seem to have this notion that 'power users' will eventually be using metro apps together with desktop ones.

Onenote MX... imo its absolutely better on metro than the desktop version. I really look forward to the rest of office getting that same treatment and seeing what they can come up with (that radial menu will be key).

I would even say the games on metro are better than their desktop counterparts (solitare, minesweeper, etc). Now you could port xbox live for the seamless integration to the desktop and add all the extra game modes to those versions of the apps but after doing that I would still prefer the metro implementation.

I even am starting to prefer the metro apps to going to various websites for that same info (news,sports,people,etc)

I'm not familiar with OneNot at all, but it looks like the metro app has nothing that couldn't be in a new desktop version? Sure the games Microsoft packed in look, better but they could look exactly the same on the desktop, and then you'd have the advantage of being able to resize the window.

 

[A.Romero]

If you mean people will get used to using the Start screen as a glorified Start menu to start win32 apps, sure.
If you mean everybody's going to be using full-screen-only Modern UI apps on their desktop monitors to get work done, lol no.

I mean I've been on the IT industry for a while. I was working for HP when the Vista roll out happened. I remember people not wanting to use it and I remember a year after, everyone using it.

Usually people lack foresight and just want to stick to what they know.

I'm not a big Microsoft fan nor I love Metro but I'm up for a paradigm change all the time. If this doesn't work they will try something else. I don't see why we need to stick to the same button on the lower left.

“If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have told me a faster horse"

(I'm totally aware that the origin of that quote is debatable but the idea is true in my opinion)

 

[Tuck]

Yeah I agree that for any real work, full screen Metro apps won't cut it on monitors. At work, I'm multitasking and looking at multiple windows constantly. For casual use... maybe.

If you mean people will get used to using the Start screen as a glorified Start menu to start win32 apps, sure.
If you mean everybody's going to be using full-screen-only Modern UI apps on their desktop monitors to get work done, lol no.

Please don't.

 

[JaggedSac]

I'm not familiar with OneNot at all, but it looks like the metro app has nothing that couldn't be in a new desktop version? Sure the games Microsoft packed in look, better but they could look exactly the same on the desktop, and then you'd have the advantage of being able to resize the window.

But then you would be negating the advantage of an application that was developed once, being perfectly useable on both a tablet and a desktop.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

But then you would be negating the advantage of an application that was developed once, being perfectly useable on both a tablet and a desktop.

But in terms of end user experience, metro apps can't do anything a desktop one can't, and desktop apps can do a lot that metro ones can't. Software companies will make more money, and some users will find the PC easier to use, but people like me will be worse off.

 

[Tuck]

I'm not familiar with OneNot at all, but it looks like the metro app has nothing that couldn't be in a new desktop version? Sure the games Microsoft packed in look, better but they could look exactly the same on the desktop, and then you'd have the advantage of being able to resize the window.

The circular interface seems designed specifically for thumb control. For mouse, the ribbon is king (And a great one at that). For this reason, the Metro One Note isn't great for mouse use.

 

[StudioTan]

But in terms of end user experience, metro apps can't do anything a desktop one can't, and desktop apps can do a lot that metro ones can't. Software companies will make more money, and some users will find the PC easier to use, but people like me will be worse off.

App contracts which includes unified search within apps.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/06/11/activating-windows-8-contracts-in-your-app.aspx

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-feature-focus-contracts-143134

 

[JaggedSac]

But in terms of end user experience, metro apps can't do anything a desktop one can't, and desktop apps can do a lot that metro ones can't. Software companies will make more money, and some users will find the PC easier to use, but people like me will be worse off.

That is true for the most part. Which is why the desktop is there and will be for quite a while. Metro will grow with time. Applications that can, will be migrated to Metro. MS will continue(and has) developed standard controls for developers to use that simplifies development for all the different types of input. It is also a safe, easy, and fast way for people to get software, which is a pretty nice thing for casuals who are leery of malicious software. It most certainly isn't perfect, the mouse wheel is a little janky in some use cases, some multi-tasking issues, etc, but nothing deal breaking.

 

[antiquegamer]

But in terms of end user experience, metro apps can't do anything a desktop one can't, and desktop apps can do a lot that metro ones can't. Software companies will make more money, and some users will find the PC easier to use, but people like me will be worse off.

This was the same argument when GUI was introduce to replace DOS. How often do you run DOS today? (my work still have an old program that run in dos shell...with dot matrix printer....)

 

[jagowar]

But in terms of end user experience, metro apps can't do anything a desktop one can't, and desktop apps can do a lot that metro ones can't. Software companies will make more money, and some users will find the PC easier to use, but people like me will be worse off.

I don't agree with that at all... I think you could take any desktop app and make it metro but just like taking metro to desktop the experience would suck... so would the desktop to metro if they just port. App developers need to rethink their apps instead of simply porting them and that is why the complex apps will take a while. To me office is the benchmark.... when you see that come over is when you will see other complex software start making the transition and I fully expect this to take years (which is why the desktop is as important as it is currently but will fade as more things make the transition).

Also there are a number of inherent advantages of metro apps:
the contract feature as mentioned
the suspend modes when the app is not active (saving memory/cpu usage)... poor design which leads to other performance issues.
performance guarantees due to the platform being managed (this to me is a big one and also related to the suspend point)
the install/reinstall method being far superior w/o all the dependencies on other languages/programs
the integration with the charms bar, etc

 

[Kagami]

The usefulness and flexibility of arbitrary window sizes, of having multiple small windows visible, of partial visibility of relevant portions of background windows, isn't going to change no matter how much time passes.
It doesn't matter how many other advantages the new app paradigm has; if it remains limited to a choice between fullscreen and "squished into a sliver on the side of the monitor," it will always be useless to me.

Across those three monitors, there are currently six fully visible windows, two partially visible windows, a vertical taskbar with 8 icons visible in the notification area, and 6 gadgets visible on the right monitor to the left of OneNote. All of this can be seen at a glance and changes monitored via peripheral vision, no need to switch to a "Start screen," regardless of which window I'm working in at the moment, regardless of whether my keyboard and mouse are busy playing a game or whatever. The UI-formerly-known-as-Metro can't even come close to replicating that setup.

I don't own a tablet and have no plans to get one.
And even if the 42" HDTV acting as my center monitor had a touchscreen, I wouldn't be able to reach it.


There are some actual appealing features in W8: Storage Space, Hyper-V client, new Bitlocker functionality, UI tweaks in Explorer and task manager.
Unfortunately, the removal of gadgets means I can't just casually upgrade to 8; I'd have to investigate how to replace the functionality I'll be losing from all six gadgets I currently use.

Storage Space is fantastic, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of upgrading for just that one feature. Is there anything else interesting in W8?
(Does anyone know if the improvements to Bitlocker allow restoring an OS system image to an encrypted volume now?)

 

[f0lken]

I am pretty positive that there is a tweak that allows you to have the Win7 gadgets in Win8, and you can have that exact same setup with the 3 monitors in Win8

 

[Kagami]

I am pretty positive that there is a tweak that allows you to have the Win7 gadgets in Win8

Ah that's great if that's true. (I'm sure I could find misc programs to replace them, but you know how it is trying to find the perfect program.)

you can have that exact same setup with the 3 monitors in Win8

Yeah the W8 desktop is obviously fine.
I'm just responding to the idea that the new "make your desktop act like a tablet" design is the future of Windows apps that we should all look forward to.

 

[StudioTan]

Ah that's great if that's true. (I'm sure I could find misc programs to replace them, but you know how it is trying to find the perfect program.)


Yeah the W8 desktop is obviously fine.
I'm just responding to the idea that the new "make your desktop act like a tablet" design is the future of Windows apps that we should all look forward to.

I don't think many people are saying that will be the case. Personally I don't see the desktop becoming legacy until, as you say, Metro can offer the same flexibility in UI and layout. I don't think that's likely because I don't think that's the intention. Are Metro apps going to be more robust in the future? Yes, I think definitely, but they won't replace the desktop any time soon, if ever.

Many people use the term "2 OSes glued together" as a slam against the OS but I think it's very necessary and a benefit. Hybrid devices will mean that sometimes you'll want the desktop experience and sometimes you'll want Metro, depending on what you're doing and what form factor the device is in.

Maybe I see this more because I have one of those devices. When it's on my desk I use it more as a desktop/laptop but other times I'm holding it and using it as a tablet. I don't want 2 devices to do that. I can go from desktop to tablet instantly.

That's not to say there aren't some Metro apps that are great on a desktop and I'm one of those people that likes to have most software fullscreen (or often on 2 screens) to keep my focus on one thing. So for people who like to have 6 programs and 8 gadgets visible at all times you can still do that. If you want immersive and singular you can have that too.

You don't NEED Metro for the desktop but it doesn't make using the computer slower overall and it provides huge benefits in other ways and on other form factors.

 

[dLMN8R]

Unfortunately, the removal of gadgets means I can't just casually upgrade to 8; I'd have to investigate how to replace the functionality I'll be losing from all six gadgets I currently use.

Storage Space is fantastic, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of upgrading for just that one feature. Is there anything else interesting in W8?
(Does anyone know if the improvements to Bitlocker allow restoring an OS system image to an encrypted volume now?)

I hear you on gadgets. However, Microsoft recommends that you stop using Gadgets on Windows 7 too due to the same security vulnerability that caused them to drop them from Windows 8.

I stopped using them a while ago, and found Rainmeter to be significantly better anyway. It's harder to configure, but worth it in the end IMO.



As for features, it's stuff like improved Explorer, copy/paste stuff, Task Manager, File History. Multimonitor support is hugely improved which would benefit you personally. Hyper-V is also included in case you want/need to do any virtualization.

Not sure about Bitlocker though.

 

[Blackhead]

I can see future versions of Metro getting the full Windows 7 snap, then OSX like expose, mission control etc...

*shrug* my main problem right now is the disconnect between desktop apps and their metro counterpart apps. I can't buy them as one package in the Windows Store. I'll have Office OneNote on one hand and OneNoteMX on the other hand and they can't access the same notebooks on the same device without first syncing through the cloud.That's fucked up.

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

Storage Space is fantastic, but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of upgrading for just that one feature. Is there anything else interesting in W8?
(Does anyone know if the improvements to Bitlocker allow restoring an OS system image to an encrypted volume now?)

Here's a starting list: http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-feature-focus-prerelease-rtm-143963

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

I can see future versions of Metro getting the full Windows 7 snap, then OSX like expose, mission control etc...

*shrug* my main problem right now is the disconnect between desktop apps and their metro counterpart apps. I can't buy them as one package in the Windows Store. I'll have Office OneNote on one hand and OneNoteMX on the other hand and they can't access the same notebooks on the same device without first syncing through the cloud.That's fucked up.

Though it's not a deal breaker, lets hope OneNote/MX syncing gets fixed by the time its out of beta. IE 10 doesn't make me optimistic about this though.

 

[LukasTaves]

I'm not familiar with OneNot at all, but it looks like the metro app has nothing that couldn't be in a new desktop version? Sure the games Microsoft packed in look, better but they could look exactly the same on the desktop, and then you'd have the advantage of being able to resize the window.

Onenote MX actually has a few less features than the desktop one (but it's currently a preview, so the final one could be fully featured), but they actually managed to provide a much cleaner interface, that imo does a better job than the ribbon in exposing the funcionality you need when you need it.

For people who already know the desktop version it could be slower to use the disk control until you get used to it, but i think that a person who has no experience with either of them will get used much faster to the Mx than the desktop one...

Imo Onenote Mx does make a strong point on how a desktop interface can be translated to metro and still keep the same functionality and at the same time be really usable with both a mouse and a touch screen, but to metro even be a possibility of a desktop replacement developers in general will have to evolve their designs quite a lot yet... Right now developers (even some from Ms) can't even match ipad apps regarding interface and usability, let alone the desktop.

 

[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

I'm not terribly familiar with OneNote, but wasn't it born out of Microsofts original foray into tablets with WindowsXP? I seem to remember using it on one of those awful HP Windows XP tablets some years ago.

If so, it kinda makes sense it work better as a tablet-style app.

Not saying that's a bad thing. But it sounds a little like going the other way, where a tablet app was shoehorned into being usable on a desktop.

 

[Leckan]

Has it been explained yet why their isn't an universal search and if there's a way to enable it?

 

[Jzero]

Has it been explained yet why their isn't an universal search and if there's a way to enable it?

Probably to make it easier to find stuff for non savvy people. i don't really know.

 

[antti-la]

I want to try it.

But does anybody know whether the RP versions you can get out of msdnaa / dreamspark as a student are solid and able to update / activate to the final retail version? So that in theory it's good for life.

I don't want to be re installing after ½ years.

Also, there are 4 versions available... i guess. Not sure about the differences and the site doesn't state.

Windows 8 RP Debug/Checked
Windows 8 RP Symbols
Windows 8 RP Debug/Checked Symbols
Windows 8 RP with Apps

Which should i go for?

 

[MrBig]

I want to try it.

Wait for RTM to be available to you.

 

[Jzero]

Probably to make it easier to find stuff for non savvy people. i don't really know.

And don't torrent the RTM because you can't wait, the activation warning is annoying as hell.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

But does anybody know whether the RP versions you can get out of msdnaa / dreamspark as a student are solid and able to update / activate to the final retail version? So that in theory it's good for life.

I don't think you can upgrade any of the RP versions to the final one.
Even between various release versions (Developer, Consumer, Release) you had to do a clean install.


Anyone know whether the generic graphic drivers included in the RTM/final version are better than the ones included in the RP? With AMD ceasing the release of drivers for older graphic cards for Win8 (fuck you AMD, you're still providing those drivers for Windows XP ffs, why not support the new system?), I'm forced to use the ones that are in-build into the system. And they suck ass. 2D stuff works great. 3D games, on the other hand, either don't work at all (Audiosurf crashes within seconds of launching) or are full of graphical glitches (missing or misplaced polygons).

 

[antiquegamer]

I want to try it.

But does anybody know whether the RP versions you can get out of msdnaa / dreamspark as a student are solid and able to update / activate to the final retail version? So that in theory it's good for life.

I don't want to be re installing after ½ years.

Also, there are 4 versions available... i guess. Not sure about the differences and the site doesn't state.

Windows 8 RP Debug/Checked
Windows 8 RP Symbols
Windows 8 RP Debug/Checked Symbols
Windows 8 RP with Apps

Which should i go for?

No you can't update to final version. I would suggest you do clean install anyway it's better. I went from RP to RC and was dreading it but it was pretty painless.

 

[rozay]

I want to try it.

But does anybody know whether the RP versions you can get out of msdnaa / dreamspark as a student are solid and able to update / activate to the final retail version? So that in theory it's good for life.

I don't want to be re installing after ½ years.

Also, there are 4 versions available... i guess. Not sure about the differences and the site doesn't state.

Windows 8 RP Debug/Checked
Windows 8 RP Symbols
Windows 8 RP Debug/Checked Symbols
Windows 8 RP with Apps

Which should i go for?

Don't the msdnaa/dreamspark versions come with keys? Also, is it the case that any updates between now and october for the RTM will just show up in windows update?

edit: just realized you're talking about the RP, the answer is no. just wait for the RTM to appear on the site, should be next week? that's the final version.

 

[Jzero]

I don't think you can upgrade any of the RP versions to the final one.
Even between various release versions (Developer, Consumer, Release) you had to do a clean install.


Anyone know whether the generic graphic drivers included in the RTM/final version are better than the ones included in the RP? With AMD ceasing the release of drivers for older graphic cards for Win8 (fuck you AMD, you're still providing those drivers for Windows XP ffs, why not support the new system?), I'm forced to use the ones that are in-build into the system. And they suck ass. 2D stuff works great. 3D games, on the other hand, either don't work at all (Audiosurf crashes within seconds of launching) or are full of graphical glitches (missing or misplaced polygons).

Don't know about AMD but Nvidia drivers are way better than the generic one.

Updates of Solitaire, Mahjong and Minesweeper reveal Windows Phone versions with cross-platform cloud save compatibility.

Does clicking 'Update Now' do anything for you guys? I click it and it takes me to the store and then nothing happens.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Don't know about AMD but Nvidia drivers are way better than the generic one.



Does clicking 'Update Now' do anything for you guys? I click it and it takes me to the store and then nothing happens.

The games are getting a patch on launch day to enable the Live functionality.

 

[Nero3000]

After installing Windows 8 on a new PC some notes:

DONT install the beta drivers for the Intel HD4000 graphics (2770) - Metro apps will just crash.

DO go to this site for adblock on IE (Metro and Desktop): http://www.fanboy.co.nz/ie.html

 

[markot]

The music app is so shit.... its laggy and awful. Wmp runs well still though...

Same with the video one... both are still pretty bad.

Also, will Microsoft put out apps for Xbox music and stuff for android and ios? Kinda lame that you need all Microsoft products to get the most out of it when spotify and co don't.

 

[Cheech]

Well, Windows 8 is a great improvement when it comes to speed. It's amazing, really, the difference. For that reason alone, it's worth the upgrade.

That said, now that I've been using it on my main machine for 24 hours, I can say that the whole Metro cobbled on UI is still straight up garbage. I never use it. I've downloaded a bunch of apps, screwed around with them, etc., but I still find the whole thing annoying. From a usability standpoint, there is ZERO reason to use any of it, since the "normal" Windows apps still use the whole desktop KB/M paradigm. If Microsoft actually gets companies such as Intuit to make Quicken for Metro, for example, maybe it will gain traction?

The reality is, Apple will sell a billion iPads this Christmas, and Windows tablets will be getting blown out next summer for $200. 2013 may also be the magic year they finally shitcan Ballmer.

 

[LukasTaves]

A video from the leaked skype app:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4BejpI2uF4&

 

[yn-neko hates a cat]

A video from the leaked skype app:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4BejpI2uF4&

Contracts are going to lead to some of the most awesome features of Windows 8 but it's going to be one of the harder things to get people used to. The idea that you go to the same place in the UI to access any application's setting is both extremely cool and radically different.

 

[Tuck]

Skype app looks slick.

 

[Aklamarth]

I'm a keyboard only user and i have been happily using Win 8 since the Consumer Preview has been out. People who badmouth the new start screen don't really know what they are talking about. You can simply ignore it if you want.
Honestly i think Win 8 is a pretty good OS. Faster (especially the boot) than 7 and , finally, has good multi monitor support.

 

[derFeef]

Jeff from Giantbomb did a quicklook at Windows 8. He is mostly coming at it from a gaming perspective. Jeff in the comments did point out that the reason the game crashed was due to his capture equipment.

http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-windows-8/17-6462/

He seems fairly positive.

 

[Ingueferroque]

A video from the leaked skype app:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4BejpI2uF4&

Neat, but moves around way too much and it is going to be silly on computers when it fills the entire screen.

 

[chickdigger802]

So when people say win 8 has good multi monitor support, what does that mean? Can I finally get the taskbar appearing on the non primary monitors without a 3rd party software?

 

[Divvy]

So when people say win 8 has good multi monitor support, what does that mean? Can I finally get the taskbar appearing on the non primary monitors without a 3rd party software?

Yes, and you can have it so only the applications on that window appear on the taskbar.

 

[sangreal]

Jeff from Giantbomb did a quicklook at Windows 8. He is mostly coming at it from a gaming perspective. Jeff in the comments did point out that the reason the game crashed was due to his capture equipment.

http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-windows-8/17-6462/

wow he is terrible at that word game. most versions wouldn't even let you use plurals (since its annoying to always enter them)

 

[GashPrex]

I thought in Windows 8 you could use metro or the traditional screen? or is that not the case anymore?

 

[Trojita]

I need a copy of Windows 7 and a coworker that was supposed to give me a copy cancelled his technet subscription. Is it better to just wait for 8?

 

[sangreal]

I thought in Windows 8 you could use metro or the traditional screen? or is that not the case anymore?

the metro screen replaces the start menu. other than that, you can use the traditional desktop to your heart's content

 

[teh_pwn]

Definitely a bug, that shouldn't happen.

^^Skype looks good.

Turns out it isn't a bug. Microsoft considers Program Files as owned by the SYSTEM account, which is even higher than Admin. What makes it worse is that if you modify policies on your system to fix it, metro apps won't launch because it will consider UAC completely disabled.

This is really annoying if you're a developer and you need to modify files in program files or C:\, etc. But it's also very annoying that built in metro apps won't work with the fix. So I'm torn. For now I'm putting up with the ridiculous popups about file access, but it's a dumb design decision.

MS employees on here, please fix this. I'm not a mouth breathing consumer. I edit files on the OS. If I'm doing it wrong, please point me to some documentation. I mean you're obviously impacted by this even more as you develop the OS, so PM me the super secret registry hack or policy please.

Is there a DOS equivalent of "sudo chown -R C:\"?

 

[rozay]

Turns out it isn't a bug. What makes it worse is that if you modify policies on your system to fix it, metro apps won't launch because it will consider UAC completely disabled.

This is really annoying if you're a developer and you need to modify files in program files or C:\, etc. But it's also very annoying that built in metro apps won't work with the fix. So I'm torn. For now I'm putting up with the ridiculous popups about file access, but it's a dumb design decision.

MS employees on here, please fix this. I'm not a mouth breathing consumer. I edit files on the OS. If I'm doing it wrong, please point me to some documentation. I mean you're obviously impacted by this even more as you develop the OS, so PM me the super secret registry hack or policy please.

I was going to try disabling them, but you really can't run the built in metro apps if you do this?

 

[teh_pwn]

I was going to try disabling them, but you really can't run the built in metro apps if you do this?

Yes. I cannot find the MSDN fix for it so I cannot point to the local security policy that fixes this, and I'm on Windows 7 so I cannot give you specifics right now.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Turns out it isn't a bug. Microsoft considers Program Files as owned by the SYSTEM account, which is even higher than Admin. What makes it worse is that if you modify policies on your system to fix it, metro apps won't launch because it will consider UAC completely disabled.

This is really annoying if you're a developer and you need to modify files in program files or C:\, etc. But it's also very annoying that built in metro apps won't work with the fix. So I'm torn. For now I'm putting up with the ridiculous popups about file access, but it's a dumb design decision.

MS employees on here, please fix this. I'm not a mouth breathing consumer. I edit files on the OS. If I'm doing it wrong, please point me to some documentation. I mean you're obviously impacted by this even more as you develop the OS, so PM me the super secret registry hack or policy please.

Is there a DOS equivalent of "sudo chown -R C:\"?

Hmm, that is really weird. Definitely something that should be fixed.