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[F0rneus]

which is worse: wahhabism or whataboutism

Wahhaboutism

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Ok, you found one western country among dozens to make your disingenuous argument, but it still doesn't help the fact that you have no point relevant to the thread and are trying to deflect to western nations. Every single post you've made since you entered the thread has been deflections to other countries. How about discussing the topic at hand?

I already said like 4 time that i was against it, what else do you want ?

I'm french btw, i didn't singled out especially this country to make a point.

 

[HStallion]

I think it went down the hill when people starting accusing this "shitty religion" and those "barbaric people". Like how to transform a legitimate concern in a ethnocentric and bigoted argument about our own cultural superiority.

Nah its definitely when you started posting. This thread is basically now about people calling you out and you moving goal posts and bringing up the West because whataboutism.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

I think it went down the hill when people starting accusing this "shitty religion" and those "barbaric people". Like how to transform a legitimate concern in a ethnocentric and bigoted argument about our own cultural superiority.

From what you've posted, we should accept any inhumane practice a country has so long as it is based on a religion.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You're being dense. Saudi Arabian men are allowed to wear shorts that show their legs. Saudi Arabian princes travel around the world and see women in far more revealing clothes than that without considering them naked. Not allowing a woman to wear normal freaking clothes is the definition of oppression.

Woman are allowed to go topless in western nations in certain settings. There would not be a country-wide incident if a woman streaks where people ask for the woman's head.

The fact that you're reaching all the way to an amazonian tribe without any technological niceties or modern culture to make your false equivalency is disingenuous.

What ?

And Saudi men are not allowed to use shorts according to this website.

For expats, men are required to wear long trousers and a shirt. Shorts, singlets and going topless are unacceptable for men and should not be worn in public at all. Expat men are not required to wear traditional attire.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

From what you've posted, we should accept any inhumane practice a country has so long as it is based on a religion.

Ridiculous claim about what i'm saying but ok.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

If a photo of these tribesman walking naked in New York was discovered would the police actively try to identify, hunt down and prosecute them for indecency? Or are you just pulling an absolutely bullshit false equivalence out of your ass?

I have a feeling they wouldn’t much care.

 

[Sami+]

Fuck this stupid country and honestly I really don't care for the religion and culture behind it having experienced it firsthand.

/Syrian
/Formerly Muslim

 

[Seductivpancakes]

I have a feeling they wouldn’t much care.

It's also legal for women to be topless in NYC.

 

[Steel]

What ?

And Saudi men are not allowed to use shorts according to this website.

Oh look a Saudi Arabian beach(In Jeddah):

Lotsa leg there. Maybe they should be thrown in jail.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Oh look a Saudi Arabian beach:



Lotsa leg there. Maybe they should be thrown in jail.

I guess they have a different criteria for beaches.

 

[Steel]

I guess they have a different criteria for beaches.

They have a different criteria for men.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I guess they have a different criteria for beaches.

Unless you’re a woman.

But it’s just their culture. They deserve to suffer like that for choosing to have two X chromosomes.

 

[HStallion]

I guess they have a different criteria for beaches.

Weren't you just going on about how women in France can't go about naked except for beaches?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

They have a different criteria for men.

Yes, but men are not allowed to go in the street in shorts, unlike what you said.

Also, your picture is most likely a private beach for foreigner, saudi men seems to be not authorized to go into those beaches, according to this same website.

Weren't you just going on about how women in France can't go about naked except for beaches?

So what ? I'm not saying that women are free to be naked around because they are free to do so on the beaches.

 

[F0rneus]

Yes, but men are not allowed to go in the street in shorts, unlike what you said.

Also, your picture is most likely a private beach for foreigner, saudi men seems to be not authorized to go into those beaches, according to this same website.

I am strongly certain that the people in the image are not "foreigners" for some reason.

 

[HStallion]

So what ? I'm not saying that women are free to be naked around because they are free to do so on the beaches.

You're the one who was making a stink about it, you tell me.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I am strongly certain that the people in the image are not "foreigners" for some reason.

How so ?

You're the one who was making a stink about, you tell me.

Because it's stupid to claim that women are free to go naked in France because there is special beaches to do so.The existence of a special place for it prove that it's forbidden elsewhere.

 

[Zyae]

So now we're going to compare slavery and dress-code ? Oh boy.
KSA should (and i'm constantly criticizing KSA about what they do to women) get rid of their archaic clergy system and corrupt monarchy, but i think that having a specific outrage about mini-skirt in Riyadh is not a very good point to make.
I do believe that there is an universal morality and universal rights that everybody should have, i'm not an absolute relativist. On other issue, i don't think that nudity criteria is universal. I reject that anybody should be charged for that, but i recognize that their is a lot of different criteria, without one being superior to the other. It's just different.

but its not just different. Not allowing women to show skin of basically any kind isnt different. Its inhumane.

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

I think it went down the hill when people starting accusing this "shitty religion" and those "barbaric people". Like how to transform a legitimate concern in a ethnocentric and bigoted argument about our own cultural superiority.

The problem isn't the religion specifically, it's about how religion is used to gain power and control. The way Saudi Arabia uses Islam is purely for these purposes. Another poster has stated that Saudi princes and royalty partake in all kinds of XXX fuckery around the globe. They are hypocrites and don't care about the religion whatsoever. To them, Islam gives them power and control, and that's how it's implemented.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

but its not just different. Not allowing women to show skin of basically any kind isnt different. Its inhumane.

Yeah i agree.

The problem isn't the religion specifically, it's about how religion is used to gain power and control. The way Saudi Arabia uses Islam is purely for these purposes. Another poster has stated that Saudi princes and royalty partake in all kinds of XXX fuckery around the globe. They are hypocrites and don't care about the religion whatsoever. To them, Islam gives them power and control, and that's how it's implemented.

I agree also about their hypocrite use of the religion. Sadly, many westerners just use those issues to bash the religion.

 

[HStallion]

How so ?



Because it's stupid to claim that women are free to go naked in France because there is special beaches to do so.The existence of a special place for it prove that it's forbidden elsewhere.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/26/paris-set-to-get-its-first-nudist-park/

Or does it not count because its a special park?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/26/paris-set-to-get-its-first-nudist-park/

Or does it not count because its a special park?

Or it's allowed, or it's forbidden. Making special place for it don't make it allowed. It's still forbidden to go topless in France, in the street, in the mall anywhere. You can even be jailed for it.

 

[HStallion]

Or it's allowed, or it's forbidden. Making special place for it don't make it generally allowed.

But you said you can't be nude in Paris France so a lot of your arguments are ringing quite hollow on this. Just keep moving goal posts, I'm sure you'll get there eventually.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

But you said you can't be nude in Paris France so a lot of your arguments are ringing quite hollow on this.

No, you can't. You can't go in the street naked in Paris. You can go in special closed place for naked people, but it's still forbidden outside these places. French law is clear.

It's like saying that there is no dress-code in KSA since a woman can wear whatever she want in her home.

 

[HStallion]

No, you can't. You can't go in the street naked in Paris. You can go in special closed place for naked people, but it's still forbidden outside these places.

It's like saying that there is no dress-code in KSA since a woman can wear whatever she want in her home.

Except your home is a private abode, a park is a public space. That means the people of Paris are fine enough with nudity to allow an entire space for it even if you can't walk around with your tits out all over the place.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Except your home is a private abode, a park is a public space. That means the people of Paris are fine enough with nudity to allow an entire space for it even if you can't walk around with your tits out all over the place.

It still dosen't change the fact that it's forbidden to go naked in the street of Paris. It's what i said in the first place and you started to use nudist beach as a counter-argument. You can repeat the same argument over and over and it won't change the fact that you can't. If you think that you can, please try.

 

[Van Bur3n]

Unless you’re a woman.

But it’s just their culture. They deserve to suffer like that for choosing to have two X chromosomes.

I'm gonna soak up the suuuuuuun...oh wait.

 

[HStallion]

It still dosen't change the fact that it's forbidden to go naked in the street of Paris. It's what i said in the first place and you started to use nudist beach as a counter-argument. You can repeat the same argument over and over and it won't change the fact that you can't. If you think that you can, please try.

Except I can find other examples of nudity occurring in Paris. I can just keep listing more events, places and so on. How about the World Naked Bike Ride that road through a ton of European capital cities, including Paris and those people were often fully nude, men and women. That was on the streets in public view, not some private space or cordoned off area.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Except I can find other examples of nudity occurring in Paris. I can just keep listing more events, places and so on. How about the World Naked Bike Ride that road through a ton of European capital cities, including Paris and those people were often fully nude, men and women. That was on the streets in public view, not some private space.

You can all you want, it won't change the law :/

 

[Jenov]

Unless you’re a woman.

But it’s just their culture. They deserve to suffer like that for choosing to have two X chromosomes.

That's sad.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

That's sad.

That not in KSA though. I don't know if it's actually a true picture. All i can find in tinyeye are some anti-muslims website.

 

[HStallion]

You can all you want, it won't change the law :/

So when the law allows it, it doesn't count. lol talk about moving goal posts.

 

[pigeon]

For somebody for an amazonian tribe, going ass naked is not being naked. Thus my comparison. There is an universal standard for naked and it should be defined by the western criteria ?

Okay, I agree. Indecent exposure laws are inherently unjust and shouldn't exist.

Am I now allowed to say that this particular law is unjust?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Okay, I agree. Indecent exposure laws are inherently unjust and shouldn't exist.

Am I now allowed to say that this particular law is unjust?

I think it's more coherent to acknowledge that beforehand to not fall into ethnocentrism. I do think that cultural/religious standards should not rule the public space in our multicultural/interconnected time, but it should go both way. I do think that a woman should not be arrested for wearing whatever she want in any muslim country, like i believe that full-veil should be allowed everywhere in the West.

 

[rjinaz]

That not in KSA though. I don't know if it's actually a true picture. All i can find in tinyeye are some anti-muslims website.

Okay, I agree. Indecent exposure laws are inherently unjust and shouldn't exist.

Am I now allowed to say that this particular law is unjust?

This thread is now for the birds.

 

[pigeon]

I think it's more coherent to acknowledge that beforehand to not fall into ethnocentrism. I do think that cultural/religious standards should not rule the public space in our multicultural/interconnected time. but it should go both way.

I don't understand what this post is meant to say.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

This is why whataboutism is so fucking dumb. Who gives a shit what they do in Paris? Do they arrest and punish women for wearing a modest skirt? No? Then what the fuck does that have to do with the issue at hand?

A woman did nothing wrong according to any reasonable and non-sexist person, yet she may suffer jail time or worse because of it. That’s the issue here.

No amount of “yeah well, that’s no different than this other group of people that’s actually totally different but I just need to argue” changes the fact that you’re putting more energy into defending brutality against women than you ever really should.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

This is why whataboutism is so fucking dumb. Who gives a shit what they do in Paris? Do they arrest and punish women for wearing a modest skirt? No? Then what the fuck does that have to do with the issue at hand?

A woman did nothing wrong according to any reasonable and non-sexist person, yet she may suffer jail time or worse because of it. That’s the issue here.

No amount of “yeah well, that’s no different than this other group of people that’s actually totally different but I just need to argue” changes the fact that you’re putting more energy into defending brutality against women than you ever really should.

So if the skirt was not "modest" (according to your criteria of course), it would be more understandable ?

 

[mlclmtckr]

So we should just pretend things arent what they are to not "play right into their hands" ?

It's not pretending things aren't what they are, it's misunderstanding the situation. "Religion ruins everything" is ahistorical Bill Maher-level lazy reasoning.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

So if the skirt was not "modest" (according to your criteria of course), it would be more understandable ?

Aaaaaand I’m done here.

This is when you know someone has no actual point to argue and just wants to argue for the sake of it: They ignore the entirety of an argument to focus on one word, twist the meaning of that word and the point being made, and try to argue about the twisted meaning that they themselves invented.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Aaaaaand I’m done here.

This is when you know someone has no actual point to argue and just wants to argue for the sake of it: They ignore the entirety of an argument to focus on one word, twist the meaning of that word and the point being made, and try to argue about the twisted meaning that they themselves invented.

For me it's the core of the issue: or you're willing to punish women for not being modest enough, or you're not.

I don't care if it's for a monokini or a "modest skirt".

 

[Zyae]

For me it's the core of the issue: or you're willing to punish women for not being modest enough, or you're not.

I don't care if it's for a monokini or a "modest skirt".

clearly you understand the difference, right?

 

[HStallion]

For me it's the core of the issue: or you're willing to punish women for not being modest enough, or you're not.

I don't care if it's for a monokini or a "modest skirt".

So make a thread about it instead of derailing this one.

 

[Dice//]

For me it's the core of the issue: or you're willing to punish women for not being modest enough, or you're not.

I don't care if it's for a monokini or a "modest skirt".

Why is it so black and white?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

clearly you understand the difference, right?

The difference is only cultural, the principle behind it is the same:
Punishing women because they are not modest enough. And this is sexism.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

For me it's the core of the issue: or you're willing to punish women for not being modest enough, or you're not.

I don't care if it's for a monokini or a "modest skirt".

She’s being punished for wearing a skirt. It’s ridiculous. It’s sexist. It’s insane.

No amount of pointing at France or whatever other convenient red herring you want to drag out here changes that.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

She's being punished for wearing a skirt. It's ridiculous. It's sexist. It's insane.

No amount of pointing at France or whatever other convenient red herring you want to drag out here changes that.

Yes, as it's ridiculous, sexist and insane to punish any women for not being modest enough.
The problem is that we are perfectly fine when we're doing it according to our own criteria.

 

[Inuhanyou]

If the military industrial complex wanna regime change somewhere, regime change there first

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Yes, as it's ridiculous, sexist and insane to punish any women for not being modest enough.
The problem is that we are perfectly fine when we're doing it according to our own criteria.

Thank you for the sociology lesson.

This thread is about this specific incident. If you have an issue with it worldwide, start another thread. You're derailing this one so you can stand up on a soapbox and tell us how terrible everyone else is too.