Support NeoGAF

[AcademicSaucer]

No it isn't. It isn't religion somehow magically making people into hardcore misogynists. If that were true the same thing would happen in every religious country.

Subjugation of women is the goal, religion is the tool. If you try to argue against the religion itself you play right into their hands.

So we should just pretend things arent what they are to not "play right into their hands" ?

 

[Budi]

For somebody for an amazonian tribe, going ass naked is not being naked. Thus my comparison. There is an universal standard for naked and it should be defined by the western criteria ?

The picture in the OP isn't "naked" even in Saudi Arabia.

Where did i said such a thing ? Nobody is capable to actually confront what i'm actually saying rather than jumping on the "ban this KSA defensor wagon".

I thought I did!

 

[HStallion]

Where did i said such a thing ? Nobody is capable to actually confront what i'm actually saying rather than jumping on the "ban this KSA defensor wagon".

I never said that KSA was ok, i never supported the arrest. I'm pointing out that we don't accept other people criteria about nudity in our countries, but yet want to impose our own in others countries.

You didn't have to say they were "ok" for your point to be ignorant and foolish. Stop harping on everyone calling you a defender of the KSA and back up your original statement which was dumb without having to defend the Saudi's reaction and dealings with this issue.

 

[F0rneus]

For somebody for an amazonian tribe, going ass naked is not being naked. Thus my comparison. There is an universal standard for naked and it should be defined by the western criteria ?

You keep saying that you do not support Saudi laws, yet you keep equating this tribe to a woman in a skirt.

Spoiler alert: both are fine, and nobody would be outraged at all.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Where did i said such a thing ? Nobody is capable to actually confront what i'm actually saying rather than jumping on the "ban this KSA defensor wagon".

I never said that KSA was ok, i never supported the arrest. I'm pointing out that we don't accept other people criteria about nudity in our countries, but yet want to impose our own in others countries.

Yes, if those other countries are violating human rights, we can condemn that.

Your point makes no sense and only serves as excusing Saudi Arabia for having outdated laws regarding this.

 

[Akainu]

People should know better then to engage golden pigeon.

Wish her the best.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The picture in the OP isn't "naked" even in Saudi Arabia.

I think that she may be be perceived as naked, maybe not among the younger generation.
I know some people who got sexually aroused only for shaking hands with the other gender, so yes, criterias differs greatly among cultures.

 

[kamineko]

In what sense it's different from a naked person coming in New York or Paris from an amazonian tribe ? Every culture have a different standard for acceptable nudity.

If those people come to any western city without covering, they would be charged and arrested:

If you have a concern with western laws, make your own thread

If you just low-key think this situation is fine because of some Epcot Center-tier nonsense, come out and own your shit

Congrats on all the replies

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You keep saying that you do not support Saudi laws, yet you keep equating this tribe to a woman in a skirt.

Spoiler alert: both are fine, and nobody would be outraged at all.

I have a hard time believing that, but if it's the case, my point is totally invalid.
In France, you'll be arrested and charged for showing a nipple, like we saw various times with the femen.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I think that she maybe be perceived as naked, maybe not among the younger generation.
I know some people who got sexually aroused only for shaking hands with the other gender, so yes, criterias differs greatly among cultures.

No, that woman is not naked. There is no argument possible around this. That is a simple fact.

If someone gets aroused by a handshake that is their issue. We then do not ban handshakes. What is even your argument here.

 

[HStallion]

I have a hard time believing that, but if it's the case, my point is totally invalid.
In France, you'll be arrested and charged for showing a nipple, like we saw various times with the femen.

My man there are nude beaches in France. The fuck are you talking about?

 

[Lamel]

KSA gonna KSA. Idiots.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

My man there are nude beaches in France. The fuck are you talking about?

That proves my point. Why a woman cannot have the freedom to just choose to got shirtless in the street ? Why she have to go in a special place to not shock others people ?

 

[HStallion]

That proves my point. Why a woman cannot have the freedom to just choose to got shirtless in the street ? Why she have to go in a special place to not shock others people ?

I'm not even sure what the fuck you're talking about anymore. I'm done with this. Good job with the derail

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

No, that woman is not naked. There is no argument possible around this. That is a simple fact.

If someone gets aroused by a handshake that is their issue. We then do not ban handshakes. What is even your argument here.

Naked/not-naked is a subjective criteria. So you can say that this woman is not naked and another person can say that she is. You can also consider that a woman with no shirt is naked, and another person (from amazonia) will say that she is not.

Nobody is speaking about banning those thing, only about the criteria. We do ban everything we consider naked in the public space in most of our western countries.

 

[Pattycakes]

That proves my point. Why a woman cannot have the freedom to just choose to got shirtless in the street ? Why she have to go in a special place to not shock others people ?

Moving goalposts, whatabsolutism, derailing, why aren't you banned yet

 

[nynt9]

As y'all can see, the derail is successfully complete. Now we're arguing about what countries in the west can we ass-naked in, instead of talking about the oppression of women in SA.

 

[Nesotenso]

No, that woman is not naked. There is no argument possible around this. That is a simple fact.

If someone gets aroused by a handshake that is their issue. We then do not ban handshakes. What is even your argument here.

I think he is talking about how SA perceives it.

 

[chugen]

Naked/not-naked is a subjective criteria. So you can say that this woman is not naked and another person can say that she is not. You can also consider that a woman with no shirt is naked, and another person (from amazonia) will say that she is not.

Nobody is speaking about banning those thing, only about the criteria. We do ban everything we consider naked in the public space in most of our western countries.

your avatar is naked

 

[xxracerxx]

I think he is talking about how SA perceives it.

Indecent is how they could possibly see her, not naked.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

A class of cultural anthropology will provoke some serious nervous breakdown to many people here. Starting by Levi-Strauss concept of "barbare" against "civilized".

 

[xxracerxx]

A class of cultural anthropology will provoke some serious nervous breakdown to many people here. Starting by Levi-Strauss concept of "barbare" against "civilized".

Please don't try and pull the intellectually superior card, right now. Come on.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

As y'all can see, the derail is successfully complete. Now we're arguing about what countries in the west can we ass-naked in, instead of talking about the oppression of women in SA.

I'll be very happy to speak about SA sexist policy against women's like voting, driving, guardianship and so on.

Indecent is how they could possibly see her, not naked.

You'll be shocked.

 

[Pattycakes]

As y'all can see, the derail is successfully complete. Now we're arguing about what countries in the west can we ass-naked in, instead of talking about the oppression of women in SA.

Exactly. The guy should have been banned a few threads ago, but he 100% need to name banned now. Talk about derailing a thread.

 

[HStallion]

I'll be very happy to speak about SA sexist policy against women's like voting, driving, guardianship and so on.

Then fucking do so because you certainly don't seem to be talking about that except to say you're not defending the KSA.

 

[Zyae]

Where did i said such a thing ? Nobody is capable to actually confront what i'm actually saying rather than jumping on the "ban this KSA defensor wagon".

I never said that KSA was ok, i never supported the arrest. I'm pointing out that we don't accept other people criteria about nudity in our countries, but yet want to impose our own in others countries. So, or we should accept EVERY cultural norm about garment in our countries, or we shouldn't criticize others countries when they don't.

"I really want to argue with someone today so here I am"


Ridiculous hill to die on. Your pedantic point is misguided. This isnt about social norms. Slavery is the norm in many societies.

 

[Nesotenso]

Indecent is how they could possibly see her, not naked.

SA has messed up laws. I think what dress code is permissible can be different between cultures. But I think we can all agree ( and I think even Golden Pigeon can) that enforcing it with jail time is messed up.

More importantly not giving people the freedom to choose how they dress is messed up.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

"I really want to argue with someone today so here I am"


Ridiculous hill to die on. Your pedantic point is misguided. This isnt about social norms. Slavery is the norm in many societies.

So now we're going to compare slavery and dress-code ? Oh boy.
KSA should (and i'm constantly criticizing KSA about what they do to women) get rid of their archaic clergy system and corrupt monarchy, but i think that having a specific outrage about mini-skirt in Riyadh is not a very good point to make.
I do believe that there is an universal morality and universal rights that everybody should have, i'm not an absolute relativist. On other issue, i don't think that nudity criteria is universal. I reject that anybody should be charged for that, but i recognize that their is a lot of different criteria, without one being superior to the other. It's just different.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

SA has messed up laws. I think what dress code is permissible can be different between cultures. But I think we can all agree ( and I think even Golden Pigeon can) that enforcing it with jail time is messed up.

More importantly not giving people the freedom to choose how they dress is messed up.

Of course ! To both points.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

That was quick..
I don't want to see all those contours and flaps. It's distracting and usually not flattering. I definitely wouldn't want to see it on men either *shudder*

Now you tell me I'm a caveman or something.

I mean, personal preference obviously but I'm sorry you live in a place where yoga pants aren't usually flattering. My fiancee wears them very well and we live in the DC area where people are young and work out a lot. This is a good place for yoga pants!

Don't think I've ever seen any on a man. If he's comfortable in them though, knock yourself out.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

That proves my point. Why a woman cannot have the freedom to just choose to got shirtless in the street ? Why she have to go in a special place to not shock others people ?

 

[Ekai]

In what sense it's different from a naked person coming in New York or Paris from an amazonian tribe ? Every culture have a different standard for acceptable nudity.

If those people come to any western city without covering, they would be charged and arrested:

So, what does the Yanomami even have to do with this topic?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You're good for finding funny gif i'll give you that, now what about replying to my specific point ? Is that freedom of nudity to allow women to go shirtless only on specific beaches ?

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Naked/not-naked is a subjective criteria. So you can say that this woman is not naked and another person can say that she is not. You can also consider that a woman with no shirt is naked, and another person (from amazonia) will say that she is not.

Nobody is speaking about banning those thing, only about the criteria. We do ban everything we consider naked in the public space in most of our western countries.

What

 

[Jzero]

The horror!

dawg! Now i have to walk around with a hard on because of this photo.

 

[Sai-kun]

Imagine being so sheltered that you get aroused from shaking hands LMAO

 

[Steel]

You're good for finding funny gif i'll give you that, now what about replying to my specific point ? Is that freedom of nudity to allow women to go shirtless only on specific beaches ?

Do you not understand the concept of a false equivalency?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Imagine being so sheltered that you get aroused from shaking hands LMAO

There are people who get really aroused by seeing ankles. I don't think it's funny, it's just different.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Do you not understand the concept of a false equivalency?

Arresting people because our culture consider that they are naked ?

Nakedness according to various cultures:
France = nipples.
KSA = legs.
Amazonian tribes=nothing.

Who is right ? I think that nobody, i think that its subjective and arbitrary.

Should people be arrested over cultural preference ? No.
Does many reaction on this topic are purely ethnocentric ? Yes.

 

[nynt9]

Arresting people because our culture consider that they are naked ?

Stop double posting. We don't arrest people for being naked. And our culture has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand here. If you're against this arrest here, that's where the discussion ends. What's the point of bringing up the west?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Stop double posting. We don't arrest people for being naked. And our culture has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand here. If you're against this arrest here, that's where the discussion ends. What's the point of bringing up the west?

France Chest and private parts must be covered except near bathing zones. Burqa banned. article 222-32: "Publicly visible sexual exhibition in public zones" punishable by 1 year of imprisonment and 15,000 fine.

(wiki)

So yeah, we do arrest and jail people over nudity.

 

[RustyNails]

I think we can agree that Saudi Arabia has a horrible no good government and ruling system while at the same time acknowledging that different cultures have different dress standards. What frustrates and saddens me, besides the plight of the girl, is people making fun of women running businesses in KSA a few pages ago wearing abayas. You have not stepped a shoe in a different, conservative society. Yet when you see progress towards liberalism that is indigenous in nature, you mock it? This is why I dont want some particular set of "liberals" talking about women's rights. You do more harm than good. Do you know how much time, effort and patience it took for the heroes there fighting to achieve that particular right? Of course you didn't. Everything is outrage.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Arresting people because our culture consider that they are naked ?

Nakedness according to various cultures:
France = nipples.
KSA = legs.
Amazonian tribes=nothing.

Who is right ? I think that nobody, i think that its subjective and arbitrary.

Should people be arrested over cultural preference ? No.
Does many reaction on this topic are purely ethnocentric ? Yes.

Saudi Arabia isn't right. Arresting someone for wearing a miniskirt is fucking ridiculous. It's not a matter of opinion.

If there was a country that legalized rape you'd say "WELP WHO R WE 2 SAAY ITS WRONG YEEE HAAW"

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I think we can agree that Saudi Arabia has a horrible no good government and ruling system while at the same time acknowledging that different cultures have different dress standards. What frustrates and saddens me, besides the plight of the girl, is people making fun of women running businesses in KSA a few pages ago wearing abayas. You have not stepped a shoe in a different, conservative society. Yet when you see progress towards liberalism that is indigenous in nature, you mock it? This is why I dont want some particular set of "liberals" talking about women's rights. You do more harm than good. Do you know how much time, effort and patience it took for the heroes there fighting to achieve that particular right? Of course you didn't. Everything is outrage.

100% this.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Saudi Arabia isn't right. Arresting someone for wearing a miniskirt is fucking ridiculous. It's not a matter of opinion.

If there was a country that legalized rape you'd say "WELP WHO R WE 2 SAAY ITS WRONG YEEE HAAW"

Yeah, as arresting somebody naked following our own cultural criteria is ridiculous, we can all agree on that.

 

[HStallion]

Yeah, as arresting somebody naked following our own cultural criteria is ridiculous, we can all agree on that.

I think we all agree this thread went down hill the moment you started posting

 

[nynt9]

(wiki)

So yeah, we do arrest and jail people over nudity.

Ok, you found one western country among dozens to make your disingenuous argument, but it still doesn't help the fact that you have no point relevant to the thread and are trying to deflect to western nations. Every single post you've made since you entered the thread has been deflections to other countries. How about discussing the topic at hand?

 

[D4Danger]

which is worse: wahhabism or whataboutism

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I think we all agree this thread went down hill the moment you started posting

I think it went down the hill when people starting accusing this "shitty religion" and those "barbaric people". Like how to transform a legitimate concern in a ethnocentric and bigoted argument about our own cultural superiority.

 

[Steel]

Arresting people because our culture consider that they are naked ?

Nakedness according to various cultures:
France = nipples.
KSA = legs.
Amazonian tribes=nothing.

Who is right ? I think that nobody, i think that its subjective.

Should people be arrested over cultural preference ? No.
Does many reaction on this topic are purely ethnocentric ? Yes.

You're being dense. Saudi Arabian men are allowed to wear shorts that show their legs. Saudi Arabian princes travel around the world and see women in far more revealing clothes than that without considering them naked. Not allowing a woman to wear normal freaking clothes is the definition of oppression.

Woman are allowed to go topless in western nations in certain settings. There would not be a country-wide incident if a woman streaks where people ask for the woman's head.

The fact that you're reaching all the way to an amazonian tribe without any technological niceties or modern culture to make your false equivalency is disingenuous.

which is worse: wahhabism or whataboutism

Wahabism loves whataboutism.