enigmatic_alex44
Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
So this movie proved Wonder Woman is more powerful than Superman, right?
She could kick his ass tbh.
She could kick his ass tbh.
Wonder Woman |OT| The World is Ready for You, Gal Gad [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter 3N16MA
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Sure. But the God/Devil's bet and focus on human free will is a long running narrative in our stories about ourselves.
It's plain as day thats used here as well. It's Ares appeal to Diana when he reveals himself and tries to convince her to join him instead of having to destory her.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I am quite relieved that this movie wasn't the pile of crap that was Man of Steel, BvS, and Suicide Squad. It was pretty decent, and I was entertained.
A few things of note:
It felt like there were two conflicting themes at the end.
Theme 1: Ares is mind controlling everyone and that all we need to do is kill him to make everyone love each other.
Theme 2: Ares is just taking advantage of the flaws that humans have naturally, so killing him won't stop humans from destroying each other and the world.
Throughout the movie, it seemed like they were going to go for the "Diana finally sees the true nature of the world" thing after she kills Fake Ares and nothing happens. But then they actually don't go for it because when she kills True Ares, all of a sudden the German soldiers are like "WTF was I doing?" and everyone hugs....so what was the point of all that? Especially when we know for a fact that even worse wars are going to happen after World War I. Like, if Ares has no more influence and Diana was right, how the hell does World War II happen?
A few things of note:
It felt like there were two conflicting themes at the end.
Theme 1: Ares is mind controlling everyone and that all we need to do is kill him to make everyone love each other.
Theme 2: Ares is just taking advantage of the flaws that humans have naturally, so killing him won't stop humans from destroying each other and the world.
Throughout the movie, it seemed like they were going to go for the "Diana finally sees the true nature of the world" thing after she kills Fake Ares and nothing happens. But then they actually don't go for it because when she kills True Ares, all of a sudden the German soldiers are like "WTF was I doing?" and everyone hugs....so what was the point of all that? Especially when we know for a fact that even worse wars are going to happen after World War I. Like, if Ares has no more influence and Diana was right, how the hell does World War II happen?
Frostinferno
Member
BvS kinda already did that.
This could have been done better. But in fairness they just witnessed two demi-gods lay waste to an airfield using weapon like magic and that last blast covered them all in rubble after making a 25 foot crater. That's after Diana took out half their company in a fit of Steve death rage.
Knowing the war was over, and not knowing where the psychopath general that kills his men was, and knowing lighting lady can take care of him, might help.
I'd say that probably helps. She gives you the evil eye, you get the message.
But seriously. That scene should have just been a bunch of mouth agape men staging out of the rubble towards her and the rising sun.
Come off it. She's already testing her gas on humans then Ares pops up to tell her final formula and you suggest there's any probability it could be used for rescuing people? It's the equivalent of hearing your neighbours in the middle of fistcuffs, heading over a handing out guns, then after a partner is killed ― and their kids too for good measure ― suggest the gun could have just been used for warning shots.
Any way it's not even worth the risk trying to convince Diana that he doesn't influence on 'that level'. She's been taught that he's a lying evil God. Once he shows up and reveals any small part in the plot she's liable to kill him just for being there
Yes... That's the plot? He already killed all the Gods and mortally wounded Zeus himself when they would not defect. He's not a good guy, but what makes it interesting is he isn't 100% wrong about humanity either. That's the entire point of Diana's struggle and reason for the new gas plotline. He needed to show her what he believes to be true.
But she came to understand what Steve believes to be true. She dropped her kill the bad guy save humanity naivety in the end, for do good for goods sake because good/love is a quality worth fighting for. The underlying message of the film. When is when she stops doubting herself, and hits peak super hero powers.
GuitarAtomik
Member
You sure about that? My read on the flashback was that he had been inspiring her work on the gas for a long while. I'm betting he did want the bombing to happen which would explain the phone call. I think the idea was:
- Push the armistice to make it seem like everyone was on the same page
- Simultaneously inspire Ludendorff and Dr Poison to make and use the gas
- Gas bombing during the armistice ruins any trust the Allies had in ever brokering peace again
- War continues indefinitely
I could be wrong though. His exact plan was kind of vague but, in a way, that works for someone trying to create chaos.
Though so too, but the eureka scene happens chronologicaly after they meet in London, where he claims later he knew who she was immediately. They also show the failed gas scene from Steve's flashback where it's made obvious Dr poison isn't making progress, before the meeting in London and concurrent eureka / whisper scene. Finally its revealed during his attempt to corrupt Diana/speech that he's leaving free will up to humans, to make his case. I strongly took it on second viewing that the entire point of the helping Dr posion in her race against the clock was to prove his point to Diana, especially in light that he states he wanted the Armistice to proceed as it will lead to an even worse war.
This is on the back of Steve also making the same case that men are flawed and have free will after she killed the general and nothing happened. After her mother warned her. And finally when Ares claims to show her; with peace hours away an evil last ditch effort by a small man and women to double down on war and atrocities for their own ends.
As someone stated above, his case after years of indoctrination against him would have to be a strong showing to win someone to his side, so it makes sense to me. Plus while WWI was terrible, it wasn't until WWII that humanity created the ability to wipe itself off the planet and destory civilization (his goal). I mean this is a God with the power of Superman, and then God magic. If he could or wanted to do it by his hand, why didn't he?
Anyways, probably should stop deconstructing a bloody super hero blockbuster, right? A lot of the films isn't perfect, but I'm finding a lot of threads and don't break upon further thought.
Vincent Alexander
Member
My interpretation of Ares makes him more complex than he probably really is...but I like it so I'm sticking with it. To me, Ares isn't 100% set on simply wiping humanity out. He is benevolent enough, in a twisted way, to let them prove him wrong, that they can be good. The armistice is his out for humanity to do just that. "Let's see if htey actually go through with it. And if they do, let's see if they stick with it." But at the same time he is giving humanity the weapons to wipe each other off the face of the planet, thus supporting his belief they are evil if they do so. In the end, he really is leaving it in their hands, though it is easy to argue that he is unfairly tipping the board one way more than the other. But then again, maybe that is what he thinks it takes. He probably has a completely inflated and unfair view of "good" and what they have to do to prove him wrong.
Don't be silly! That's half the fun.
Prometheus did give man fire and knowledge, and Zeus didn't punish all of man, but Prometheus. Ares was probably not a happy camper to see knowledge and free will mix.
Ares in this movie is cast much more in line with the Abrahambic Devil/Arch Angel it seems to me. He's not the God of War that demands tribute and blesses conquest, but the Devil with a bet on humanities dark side. A good that sees humanities inability to progress from Zeus child like pet race.
Not even getting into Greek mythologys' fun with familicide.
Ares in this movie is cast much more in line with the Abrahambic Devil/Arch Angel it seems to me. He's not the God of War that demands tribute and blesses conquest, but the Devil with a bet on humanities dark side. A good that sees humanities inability to progress from Zeus child like pet race.
Not even getting into Greek mythologys' fun with familicide.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
She's not bullet proof. She can't fly. She can't run faster than the speed of sound. She can't shoot lasers out of her eyes.
Supes would've cleared out no man's land in about 8 seconds.
Toni
Member
This is her first movie. She doesnt have all those powers yet. Also she didn't finish her training in Themyscira in the movie.
She eventually gets strong enough (in the comics) to the point that she can go toe to toe with Faora, a Kyprtonian and beat her.
shira
Member
Thors hammer is a great running gag in the MCU as a barometer for strength/worthiness
I can't imagine them doing that in DC. Do they even have any running gags?
broncobuster
Banned
Faora is still alive in the DCEU. Maybe one day we'll find out.
And like Faora, Diana may not be as strong or fast as Supes, but they make up for it in technique.
Could do the Green Lantern ring.
I mean, it'd be a cool moment if Hal gets knocked out and the ring flies to one of the other League members.
Technically Faora and other Kryptonians are in the phantom zone, along with Christopher Meloni and (the incredibly cast and underused Richard Schiff as) Emil Hamilton.
And like Faora, Diana may not be as strong or fast as Supes, but they make up for it in technique.
Could do the Green Lantern ring.
I mean, it'd be a cool moment if Hal gets knocked out and the ring flies to one of the other League members.
Technically Faora and other Kryptonians are in the phantom zone, along with Christopher Meloni and (the incredibly cast and underused Richard Schiff as) Emil Hamilton.
Martha count?
BronsonLee
Member
1: wait wat she is? bring her back ASAP
2: yeah Supes is uberpowerful but he can't fight for shit, Diana bops him with the quickness
Yes that's the plot... And the plot is flawed...? Like I know what actions are written as the plot and I'm arguing those actions don't make much sense. I've read your thrice and I'm not sure why transcribing the plot is supposed to be worth a reply...?
I'd argue the characters are flawed (and not in the Zac Snyder nonsense way), which makes it interesting. But I digress.
A movie without an internal crisis and doubt is boring to me.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Did anyone else get Fifth Element vibes when it's revealed that Diana is the ultimate weapon against evil and the key is love?
I love it too but the Dawn of Justice version was overpowering. The new theme is so much better.
I'm excited to see this but damn! You know the DCCU is in a bad state when they have to announce that this is certified fresh in a short. https://www.instagram.com/p/BVFhwOmgKgt/
Having said that, in Johns we believe!
Having said that, in Johns we believe!
Sure, if you ignore every other movie that has promoted their fresh rating.
My bad. None come to mind personally; I don't use Instagram much and can't recall seeing it anywhere else.
Discotheque
Banned
Baby Driver (future best movie of the summer) been promoting all over with its RT score right now.
the game has changed, these aggregates make a difference in bringing audiences in now apparently.
CrackPebbles
Member
I loved the movie overall. It makes me really happy that this movie is doing well and has been universally acclaimed. I had a few problems with it, like that scene where Dr Poison and Lutendorff are doing evil laughs after throwing the poison into that meeting room felt so dumb and out of place. And I didn't really care for Ares, I honestly didn't think he'd show up I thought they'd go with something like Diana finishes Lutendorff and learns about the nature of man and war continues and she just acknowledges that and takes her place as a protector of humanity and all that bullshit. But nah they just straight up kill the god of war then all the evil german soldiers who committed countless atrocities are all hugging the heroes and smiling and everythings at peace. I wasn't too into that.
Nah when then the villains' flaw is that they are ultra stupid that's not interesting to me.
Diana did have an internal doubt and they resolved that by having Ares show up = boring.
Diana letting her 'love' go commit suicide could have a source of crisis but they avoided that by confrontation by Tinnitus at the key moment = boring
BronsonLee
Member
That's cause they know they're gonna BOMB
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Once my wife pointed it out to me, yes.
She's a pretty huge fan of Fifth Element (as am I). She also loved this movie.
Soldiers reaction is more to the point of Theme 2. Diana was 'wrong, in the sense that Ares was just a kill switch and everything would go back to normal. She learned what kind of things humankind was capable of with the right 'motivation', which is in part why she is most susceptible to Ares turning her then. But she also learned how humankind was also capable of so many good things on their own and can value life (particularly when staring death in the face, like seeing a rampaging god destroying everything and a massive chemical bomb about to wipe them out).
The 'human' moment between opposing soldiers is an example of the better aspect of humankind. It's also very much based in reality, as you can find lots of similar things in a lot of world war history.
If DC had any sense of humor they should get Ryan Reynolds to do a cameo in Justice League.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
This is her first movie. She doesnt have all those powers yet. Also she didn't finish her training in Themyscira in the movie.
She eventually gets strong enough (in the comics) to the point that she can go toe to toe with Faora, a Kyprtonian and beat her.
Would love to see Faora again at some point.
I really don't see what they did that differently from Marvel. It's probably why I liked it a lot. Can you explain?
I'm a 47 year old woman and I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I had the same reaction watching this yesterday. I watch all the superhero movies and enjoy them but I didn't realize how important it was to me for this movie to be good. I actually teared up during the No Man's Land scene. I think it was the first real superhero cinema moment I've ever seen where a woman is the singular, super powerful badass. X-men movies exist but haven't come close to this for many reasons.
On a tangental note, the RLM review of WW made it even more clear that they really don't get this. They liked the film but downplayed why it mattered that we finally have a female lead in a superhero movie. Representation really matters. They're white guys who have been totally catered to and they are oblivious to it or why it's at all important.
My younger daughter skipped the past few Marvel movies, but came to Guardians Vol. 2 and Wonder Woman. Why? Because it wasn't a bunch of dudes hitting each other again.
I'm taking her to see it again tomorrow. I don't think she's seen any MCU movie twice in theaters.
Man, stuff like this just warms my heart. It's great to see people from different demographics finally have that "YES! FINALLY!" moment. It's doubtful my own specific ethnicity will ever get a moment like this in a big pop culture artifact, but I can still celebrate it when Asians in general get portrayed as something other than Ninjas and Kung Fu masters.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I dunno. Dude's a giant plus in the flashback scene after he killed the gods, he was buff as hell. Moustache was a nice touch haha.
BossDarkseid
Member
Yeah, I wasn't far off. I felt like they were subtle in ways of building emotional connections + establishing resonsnace, but also very efficient with their use of time. Maybe a tad messy at times with editing causing confusion but things like Chief saying that Trevor's people stole everything from his people, or the fact that WW2 etc still happened worked to make me think that even if Ares "died" and WW1's Armistice was signed..
Humanity was still plenty evil. I'd say they didn't have to say it, but Trevor kinda did...
It was the scene with his photo on the board where it hit me. I was actually wishing his photo was smaller. I thought it would have made his sacrifice almost more heroic to know how big of an impact he made in his sacrifice, but to only be such a small part of this collage of fallen soldiers.
The film was pretty forgettable and milquetoast, and the whole Germans as super evil enemies who enslave women and children and gasses civilians was incredibly dumb, if not offensive. But at least it's it's nice to see a woman in the lead for once (even though it had some questionable characterization as a female superhero) and some of the visuals were nice.
The film was also incredibly American in the whole "I just have to believe in love for all humans to acquire peace for everyone" *goes and kills hundreds of people* hypocrisy.
The film was also incredibly American in the whole "I just have to believe in love for all humans to acquire peace for everyone" *goes and kills hundreds of people* hypocrisy.
I've seen this happening a lot too, but I want to point out it hasn't just come from white guys. It's also been from some women of color who feel a little left out. Diana is a woman, but she is still a white woman after all.
That said, I do think it's a shame the way some have tried to downplay the importance of this moment just because they didn't have the same connection. I'm all for varying opinions, but moments like these where people are having genuine and sincere joy over something seem to attract those that want to poo-poo the affair more and more.
This is her first movie. She doesnt have all those powers yet. Also she didn't finish her training in Themyscira in the movie.
She eventually gets strong enough (in the comics) to the point that she can go toe to toe with Faora, a Kyprtonian and beat her.
Those suits amped her and superman up iirc. Even still diana is about as strong as superman and a much better fighter
A couple of valid criticisms are the two German villains are literally mustache twirling levels of hokey evil. I mean that shit wouldn't even fly in a Marvel movie (well it probably would but still)
And the film steals a lot of it's beats especially in the 3rd act from The First Avenger.
The 3rd act is a huge disappointment. I get why they thought they had to take it there, but they really didn't.
The framing device for the story was also a bit lazy.
Still a very good film which didn't really stick the landing.
And the film steals a lot of it's beats especially in the 3rd act from The First Avenger.
The 3rd act is a huge disappointment. I get why they thought they had to take it there, but they really didn't.
The framing device for the story was also a bit lazy.
Still a very good film which didn't really stick the landing.