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[Osaka]

baaaaaaaawwwwwwwwww wwhaaaaaaaaa

why are you still playing and/or whining here if it's so awful

you're not forced to

if you really think that WoW is the only thing out there worth playing you really deserve getting ripped off for the terrible experience you seem to be getting from WoW.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Things wont be perfect in the earliest form.

After 10 tiers, a 10 man guild finally isn't locked out of the best PVE gear.

 

[J-Rzez]

why are you still playing and/or whining here if it's so awful

you're not forced to

Good one dude.

As I've said in the past, and eluded to there, no MMO can match the quality of gameplay WoW has. It's the only MMO that doesn't make me cringe while playing it due to horrible, choppy gameplay. I enjoy the gameplay, and I enjoy playing the game with the people I do play with. This game gets the vast amount of my free time, thus I have a lot invested in it. I want it to be the best it can be, and this is a discussion board, thus I'm discussing said game that eats up so much of my time. I have never had a game with such a love/hate relationship as I do this one. It's not hard to follow.

Is that the best you can come up with though since you failed to dispute what me and Grimace were discussing?

Things wont be perfect in the earliest form.

After 10 tiers, a 10 man guild finally isn't locked out of the best PVE gear.

Yes, but they KNOW this now and it's their philosophy on game design, so why did they put it in like this? It's an experiment on their part, trying to force everyone into doing things they don't want to do, or, that they can't do. That's all. And while everything else has changed for the better in these regards, they make a new mode that people cried for and then punished people for wanting it. It just makes no sense for them to do this in the slightest. They know people won't like this.

 

[Osaka]

Is that the best you can come up with though since you failed to dispute what me and Grimace were discussing?

You really should aim your "criticism" to the official forums if you really want to make the game the best it can be. Like 9,5/10 posts you post in this thread are just pure complaining and it really gets old fast. Blizzard this Blizzard that. Deal with it or go post somewhere where your posts might actually be read by people who matter when it comes to developing WoW. It's been like this since Vanilla when it comes to their decisions. They make 1 good decision, followed by 2 weird and 1 awful ones. That's the WoW development cycle.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I guess it shows what a shitty community WoW PVP is when so many of them think that this is a legitimate characterization of Blizzard. Honestly I don't even know why you'd want to keep playing if you really thought Blizzard constantly fucked everything up like this.

In reality they are an incredible developer that doesn't head precisely in the direction you desire with their decisions every single time.




Maybe I can help you rephrase that to better get your point across:

BG's will be exactly the way they are now, but with the added bonus that every third week each bracket is rated and grants CP.

Spoiler

lol CP

P.S. Blizzard likes to encourage the habit of trying out different things and in particular socializing more. Guild leveling and bonuses for queuing in random dungeons rather than specific ones are examples of this. Maybe they believe that people getting out of their comfort zone and trying the other brackets, as well as making new teammates, is itself deserving of reward, in this case CP.

Spoiler

lol CP

People can't get over the logical fallacy that because they can't get something new that they want without doing something they don't want to do, then that thing has been taken from them, even though they never had it before.

I'd really like to hear which logical fallacy this is (as opposed to the reality where you're just using the term completely incorrectly just to brand an opinion you don't like as bad)

And your post clarifies nothing. I already knew that was his point, I just disagree iwth it because it's purposefully ignoring the point that nobody wanted it to be "exactly the way they are now."

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Their philosophy is to get people to want to do every BG and take them seriously.

Since some are designed to be more than 10, they decided on this.

 

[Osaka]

What this will cause is people making static rated BG teams from multiple guilds in order to get enough people for each bracket.


I dont necessarily see this as a bad thing but it certainly slows down guild leveling.

This is the way "serious BGs" were in vanilla too, a mixed bunch of people farming honor together for those pvp ranks. And it was fun.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Their philosophy is to get people to want to do every BG and take them seriously.

Since some are designed to be more than 10, they decided on this.

It's not that I'm questioning the purpose behind it, I'm questioning the logic of it. Virtually everybody was expecting that you would be able to run it the same way you play Arena and nobody was really thinking that if you had 10 dedicated PvPers, you could only do rated BGs every three weeks.

Compounding the problem is that it's just GearScore all over; you accumulate gear far slower than everyone else, so you'll never actually win at BGs because the 25m guilds will just stomp the shit out of you because they have better gear, but you can't get into 25m Rated PUGs because your Gear sucks too badly to get in.

 

[Osaka]

It's not that I'm questioning the purpose behind it, I'm questioning the logic of it. Virtually everybody was expecting that you would be able to run it the same way you play Arena and that if you had 10 dedicated PvPers, you can only do rated BGs every three weeks.

Only logical reason for it is to get better matchmaking for all 3 brackets, even if it's just one bracket at a time. If they all were open, some of the brackets would become less popular and would have terrible queue times and matchmaking wouldn't be able to reliably bring you even teams.

The problem is bigger with BG's than Arenas obviously, because of server faction balances and the fact you can't fight horde vs horde in a BG. Heck, my server has like 4 horde towards every alliance guy. There's 1000 blood elfs more than the next race. Horde is pretty dominant all across EU servers to my knowledge, as well.

 

[Alex]

Is that the best you can come up with though since you failed to dispute what me and Grimace were discussing?

Grimace is the one bringing the discussion points man, you're just throwing another across the board temper tantrum again. If you just rocked some criticism or concern instead of every post of yours being about how retarded Blizzard is and how bad every last thing in the game is, it'd be easier to take you seriously. =/

Anyway, I don't like how they're handling this. 10v10, which is probably what 75% of folks wanna do, every 3 weeks is lame as heck. If they're concerned about the larger brackets being ignored, then what they need to do is go classical arena style on it and offer bigger rewards. With arena, the reward variance was a bit bullshit, but with these huge teams it's different.

If they're concerned with map variety, then that's probably something that won't be addressed until later in the expansion since, I believe, they said they wanted to add new BG/5 mans with every major content patch. Could be wrong on that though, can't remember.

Personally, I think it'd be best to just have 10 and 15 man BGs be scalable. Battle for Gilneas is a capture and hold AB styled map but running on 10, so it's not like it's a conceptual problem.

I dunno, I hope this winds up changing though. I'll do 10v10, and probably 15v15 isn't a big strech but 25v25, for me who doesn't plan on going into a 25 man raid guild, that's just going to be a bitch when it 's week is up.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I think teaming up with a guild makes for good relations.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I still want to know why leveling BGs don't just scale everyone's stats to a specific level not accounting for gear or skills only available at a certain level. It's pretty silly knowing that at Level 22, you have no chance to do anything but die repeatedly. The biggest problem is that you can't even contribute much because you can't hit other players who are more than a certain number of levels over you.

 

[speedpop]

Even my guild doesn't have the solid numbers for 25v25 week, and we've been planning the rated BGs for a good time now.

I still want to know why leveling BGs don't just scale everyone's stats to a specific level not accounting for gear or skills only available at a certain level. It's pretty silly knowing that at Level 22, you have no chance to do anything but die repeatedly. The biggest problem is that you can't even contribute much because you can't hit other players who are more than a certain number of levels over you.

Easily one of the best things behind Warhammer Online. Blizzard should have really implemented something like this a long time ago.

 

[Osaka]

Even my guild doesn't have the solid numbers for 25v25 week, and we've been planning the rated BGs for a good time now.

Rated BG's aren't supposed to be a guild vs guild only -thing anyway, more like a "premade vs premade"-thing. So basically a way to support and increase the premade BG activity that was so fucking awesome back in the day when PVP ranks mattered.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I still want to know why leveling BGs don't just scale everyone's stats to a specific level not accounting for gear or skills only available at a certain level. It's pretty silly knowing that at Level 22, you have no chance to do anything but die repeatedly. The biggest problem is that you can't even contribute much because you can't hit other players who are more than a certain number of levels over you.

i made a thread asking for doubled brackets. 10-15, 15-20. no reply.

but that's a way better idea.

 

[JoeMartin]

Quick question: Will the heirloom gear XP bonus be active for level 80 character right out of the gate in Cataclysm?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Rated BG's aren't supposed to be a guild vs guild only -thing anyway, more like a "premade vs premade"-thing. So basically a way to support and increase the premade BG activity that was so fucking awesome back in the day when PVP ranks mattered.

If that were true, they wouldn't be offering Guild XP for doing rated BGs with your guild and having an 80% guild percentage requirement.

Quick question: Will the heirloom gear XP bonus be active for level 80 character right out of the gate in Cataclysm?

No. The tooltip only specifies that they stop scaling at 80, but they stop giving bonus XP at 79 also.

 

[speedpop]

Rated BG's aren't supposed to be a guild vs guild only -thing anyway, more like a "premade vs premade"-thing. So basically a way to support and increase the premade BG activity that was so fucking awesome back in the day when PVP ranks mattered.

Of course, and some of the best premade vs premade battles were guilds back in the day with the occasional stranger jumping in for some glory fun. I'm not hating on what Blizzard are doing but as I've said we're fine for 10-man and 15-man premades, but the 25-man stuff will have to be done the old fashioned way of recruiting through Trade.

Then again, our guild is part of a coalition of sorts (RP-PVP junk) in the Horde and filling out a 25-man will be no problem since we talk in various OOC channels. My server's communication between players seems to be really high, but at the same time it might be a needless hassle of trying to form something up and finding an empty vent/mumble server for AV/IoC when it could be easily done in a guild where we already have everything we need.

 

[JesseZao]

If that were true, they wouldn't be offering Guild XP for doing rated BGs with your guild and having an 80% guild percentage requirement.

That's like saying heroics are meant to be run by guilds because they offer guild xp for it.

 

[Osaka]

If that were true, they wouldn't be offering Guild XP for doing rated BGs with your guild and having an 80% guild percentage requirement.

Why not?

You get guild xp as a bonus if you really have the vast majority of the players in that battleground from your guild. Because your guild is causing whatever the outcome in that BG is.

It's like they're saying "grats, you really managed to get as much as 20 people from your guild to do this shit, have some guild xp".

I don't see why the requirement should be any lower though cos when you add in more randoms to the group, your guild doesn't really deserve the guild xp as much because randoms are doing half the work.

And yes, what JesseZao said. Guild XP in general is just a bonus for doing guild activity. Not some shit you have to do and what is the only way of doing things.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Of course, and some of the best premade vs premade battles were guilds back in the day with the occasional stranger jumping in for some glory fun. I'm not hating on what Blizzard are doing but as I've said we're fine for 10-man and 15-man premades, but the 25-man stuff will have to be done the old fashioned way of recruiting through Trade.

Then again, our guild is part of a coalition of sorts (RP-PVP junk) in the Horde and filling out a 25-man will be no problem since we talk in various OOC channels. My server's communication between players seems to be really high, but at the same time it might be a needless hassle of trying to form something up and finding an empty vent/mumble server for AV/IoC when it could be easily done in a guild where we already have everything we need.

I would expect the thing to be overhauled pretty quickly if 25m week turns out to be a bye week for a significant portion of guilds. You'll be seeing PvP Gearscore almost instantly to fill up your 25s and there will be moaning all around (not entirely unjustified, either).

That's like saying heroics are meant to be run by guilds because they offer guild xp for it.

No it isn't.

 

[jersoc]

No it isn't.

wtf, yes it is. your argument is because they offer a bonus for fielding almost all guildies it's meant to be that. heroics are the same. you can't cherry pick the arguments because you don't like them. same thing with raids. you get a bonus for mostly guild members too, but you can still run a pug if you want.

as someone who farmed up to rank 11 on 2 different characters, i welcome rated BGs. I pvp'd with so many people and it was a lot of fun. We eventually had a nice group going that would route players based on what they needed to get for the week and shit. good times.

i hope this semi returns pvp rivalries, but would be hard since it's still cross server.

 

[Angry Grimace]

wtf, yes it is. your argument is because they offer a bonus for fielding almost all guildies it's meant to be that. heroics are the same. you can't cherry pick the arguments because you don't like them. same thing with raids. you get a bonus for mostly guild members too, but you can still run a pug if you want.

as someone who farmed up to rank 11 on 2 different characters, i welcome rated BGs. I pvp'd with so many people and it was a lot of fun. We eventually had a nice group going that would route players based on what they needed to get for the week and shit. good times.

i hope this semi returns pvp rivalries, but would be hard since it's still cross server.

That's the forum secret code for acknowledging that someone responded, but not having even any interest at all in getting into a drawn-out debate on the topic because it has almost nothing to do with the overarching topic considering it's just an aside that doesn't matter at all.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

The people defending Blizzard here is exactly why this stuff is happening. How hard is it to understand, ESPECIALLY with BLIZZARDs change in philosophy, this is moronic.

10 man drops the same items that 25 man does, just varying levels of amounts of loot that drops. Ok...

You can get points in arena 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, just a varying level once again.

Thus, I want to do 10v10 Rated BGs, every week just like I can do all of the other things every week. In tune with their philosophy on the other subjects, why is it that myself and my guildmates are supposed to be punished for only having 10 people interested in rated bgs? Why is it ok for Blizzard to lock you out of content then when you are not anywhere else as they themselves said wasn't right before.

It makes zero sense to punish said sized teams, denying them progression and locking them out of the points for "x" weeks due them them only having a smaller guild at their disposal. When you only have 10 players and you're forced to pug in who knows what quality player who may have never played with you before thus not knowing the strategy, making you that much more likely to lose placement and points for said week.

You better believe that if someone can capture the essence of WoW's gameplay perfectly I'd be moving on. The problem is no one makes a game that plays as fluidly as WoW, thus there's no where else to go, Blizzard has a stranglehold on the market, allowing them to dictate what their players should "like" and if they don't tough shit. All these companies try to mimic WoW, but they fail to understand that they're not mimicking the key element, the gameplay seamlessness, thus their game fails.

Grimace, do you have a link to the thread in which Blues are talking about this?

I totally agree with everything you said here, and I'm not sure why people are getting all bent out of shape about it. Heaven forbid people openly discuss their complaints about an upcoming expansion without the "I just can't handle these posts anymore! Holy shit!" attack attack attack :lol Did people's sacks just shrink or something? We pay a monthly subscription fee. With the upcoming changes, that means you'll only be able to do your preferred bracket of choice for two weeks out of the month (at best). It's a horrendous decision on blizzard's part. The people who just do BG's for fun are still going to do the 25m brackets, but maintaining a 25m pvp team is stupid, and anyone who actually takes competitve pvp seriously, is not going to want to play with pugs, exactly as you mention.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

What are the BG brackets going to be anyway?

10vs10
1. WSG
2. Battle for Gilneas
3. Twin Peaks

15vs15
1.AB
2.Eye of The Storm
3.Strand of the Ancients

25vs25
1.AV
2.Isle of Conquest

?

 

[HarryDemeanor]

What are the BG brackets going to be anyway?

10vs10
1. WSG
2. Battle for Gilneas
3. Twin Peaks

15vs15
1.AB
2.Eye of The Storm
3.Strand of the Ancients

25vs25
1.AV
2.Isle of Conquest

?

That looks right. I haven't checked out how it's setup in beta though so I could be wrong.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

So, J-Rzez, you seriously want to do the same 3 Bgs week to week and never ever do pre-made AB?

I think everyone who has been playing for years holds a special place in their heart for AB and AV and would like them to actually be fun.

I personally think everyone doing the same brackets at the same time is better. Just like the weekly raid quest.

The problem is having the same 15 extra people give themselves every third week. Surely you can find a 10 man guild to work with. A loss of guild exp doesn't matter eventually.

 

[Weenerz]

J-Rzez and Angry Grimace are two of the biggest jackasses in this thread, why even acknowledge their posts?

 

[Angry Grimace]

J-Rzez and Angry Grimace are two of the biggest jackasses in this thread, why even acknowledge their posts?

Because it's a completely meritorious issue that a lot of people didn't know Blizzard was implementing, so why don't you relax, psycho?

It's just a fucking game, not everyone has to agree with you on everything. At least when J-Rzez complains, it's actually about the game itself, unlike you, who only posts to complain about other posts.

 

[DarkJC]

All the whining and complaining here does nothing. Instead of channeling your righteous fury into massive posts here about how everyone who is fine with this is a Blizzard enabler, how about you let Blizzard know on a forum they actually read?

To the people in this thread who are sick and tired of reading whiny bullshit: embrace the ignore list. Especially now that it's devolved into petty name calling and one-upmanship.

 

[Angry Grimace]

All the whining and complaining here does nothing. Instead of channeling your righteous fury into massive posts here about how everyone who is fine with this is a Blizzard enabler, how about you let Blizzard know on a forum they actually read?

To the people in this thread who are sick and tired of reading whiny bullshit: embrace the ignore list. Especially now that it's devolved into petty name calling and one-upmanship.

Uh, what? Other than Weiner, who only really posts in the thread to complain about other posters, who's "name-calling" and engaging in "one-upmanship?"

Seriously, the belief that everyone that has a difference of opinion from you should be ignored is just weird; if you don't like discussion, why are you on a forum?

Discussing gameplay systems and how they either live up to or don't live up to expectations is like 80% of GAF.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I just got Multi-Shot on my Belf hunter, and I have no clue what I'm supposed to do with it. At level 32 it does about 35 damage to each target. By contrast, my Explosive shot ticks for 140 for 10 focus more. I don't really understand why it exists if it does such terrible damage? Do I just not have any real AoE until I get Explosion Trap and/or the thing that gives MS Serpent Sting effects?

Also, playing a new class is always illuminating. For example, I thought Hunters ALWAYS had had the ability to throw their traps. I guess that was just "Freezing Arrow." You learn something every day.

 

[unifin]

I just got Multi-Shot on my Belf hunter, and I have no clue what I'm supposed to do with it. At level 32 it does about 35 damage to each target. By contrast, my Explosive shot ticks for 140 for 10 focus more. I don't really understand why it exists if it does such terrible damage? Do I just not have any real AoE until I get Explosion Trap and/or the thing that gives MS Serpent Sting effects?

Also, playing a new class is always illuminating. For example, I thought Hunters ALWAYS had had the ability to throw their traps. I guess that was just "Freezing Arrow." You learn something every day.

As of 4.0, multi-shot is the new hunter AoE since volley was removed. Also remember that multi-shot works like mind sear in that it hits all the targets around your primary target as well (although mind sear doesn't hit the actual target). So aim for the middle of the pack to maximize your AoE DPS.

And once you get trap launcher, you will be able to throw all your traps.

 

[Angry Grimace]

As of 4.0, multi-shot is the new hunter AoE since volley was removed. Also remember that multi-shot works like mind sear in that it hits all the targets around your primary target as well (although mind sear doesn't hit the actual target). So aim for the middle of the pack to maximize your AoE DPS.

And once you get trap launcher, you will be able to throw all your traps.

I understand what it does, but it does less damage even with 8 targets than a single Explosive Shot does.

 

[cdyhybrid]

What's the typical Demo leveling spec? My Warlock's level 60 but has shit for gear.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Mind = Blown. The voice actor doing the Introduction sequences for each race, as well as King Terenas, is Dr. Silberman from the Terminator. I bet everyone else already knew this though. :lol :lol

What's the typical Demo leveling spec? My Warlock's level 60 but has shit for gear.

I've found that it's pretty hard to mess up leveling specs post 4.0.1. I was skeptical at how slow it would feel not getting a point at every level, but it really works great, honestly. You almost never have to invest points in crap that doesn't do anything relevant to what you want to do.

 

[Dina]

Either force this onto players, or make every BG in three flavours. The choice is clear. Also, BG's are bad in any shape or form. Rated BG's will be no different.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

what's the best shadow priest rotation/priority for heroic aoe trash pulls?

Mind Sear sucks in my gear

 

[Angry Grimace]

what's the best shadow priest rotation/priority for heroic aoe trash pulls?

Mind Sear sucks in my gear

Mind Sear. Sorry.

 

[Firebrand]

Anything interesting happening pre-shattering or should I save my 7 days of free game time?

 

[Osaka]

I understand what it does, but it does less damage even with 8 targets than a single Explosive Shot does.

Yup, they ruined Multi-Shot recently. Enjoy! :lol

 

[funkmastergeneral]

Anything interesting happening pre-shattering or should I save my 7 days of free game time?

Nothing really cool yet. It's going to be an elemental invasion of sorts, with them attacking the main cities. So far we've just gotten a ~20 minute questline and elementals randomly spawning throughout the world. Hopefully we'll see a bit more tomorrow.

 

[Sullen]

what's the best shadow priest rotation/priority for heroic aoe trash pulls?

Mind Sear sucks in my gear

Mind Sear was nerfed into uselessness. On trash -> shadow word pain every target and begin running close circles around the groups to trigger your shadowy apparition. It will deal way, way, way more damage than Mind Sear ever will right now.

 

[Bisnic]

I remember pre 4.0.1, my DISC healing priest could do great AOE damage by spamming Mind Sear in heroics between shields. Now i seem to do more damage by spamming Smite since i noticed Mind Sear damage isn't impressive anymore. And at least i can heal with Smite and improve my healing and get mana back(Archangel) unlike Mind Sear.

 

[yacobod]

The people defending Blizzard here is exactly why this stuff is happening. How hard is it to understand, ESPECIALLY with BLIZZARDs change in philosophy, this is moronic.

Thus, I want to do 10v10 Rated BGs, every week just like I can do all of the other things every week. In tune with their philosophy on the other subjects, why is it that myself and my guildmates are supposed to be punished for only having 10 people interested in rated bgs? Why is it ok for Blizzard to lock you out of content then when you are not anywhere else as they themselves said wasn't right before.

you must have not really played the game at vanilla when it was actually fun to do battlegrounds, during the entire pvp rank grinding and pushes, the only people who really controlled the top ranks, i.e. 11-14, were people/guilds who ran semi organized groups for either AB or WSG, during the appropriate bg weekends, good organized AB groups can still 5 cap shitty teams, and evenly matched games are glorious

fyi, true 15 vs 15 organized games of AB are really fucking fun, they can be a lot more fun than some games of wsg which quickly devolve into turtling the flag in base and a lot of other nonsense

and is it really that hard to get another 5 guys together to farm the other bgs?

at any rate, you are without a doubt the whiniest poster in the history of this thread, you are like an evolutionary Alex from the BC days

 

[GhostRidah]

I was one of those people who got Grand Marshal with my guild back in the day, it was great but also pretty bad (was like a job) if it wasn't for the immense time you had to spend playing it, would be even better and thats what it seems like its going to be this time around so I cant wait for that.

 

[Acidote]

Do you guys really want +24h AV back in business? Because that's how AV was back then too.

 

[Weenerz]

Do you guys really want +24h AV back in business? Because that's how AV was back then too.

I enjoyed those long AVs tbh. But I don't really pvp much and AV is really the only BG I enjoy.

 

[Firebrand]

12 gigabytes of patches D:

Mind = Blown. The voice actor doing the Introduction sequences for each race, as well as King Terenas, is Dr. Silberman from the Terminator. I bet everyone else already knew this though. :lol :lol

He's also LeChuck in the Monkey Island games. It really is a great voice.

 

[Osaka]

Do you guys really want +24h AV back in business? Because that's how AV was back then too.

Certainly beats the rush AV.