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[Macattk15]

Nope, Survival Hunters. Fury is around the median (balance druids being the median).

(The colors on the chart match the default colors on recount for each class.)

Yeah I realized after I made the post. Just couldn't think of who the hell the "green" class was. Probably because I hate hunters so much and was never used to seeing them so high.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

That's from five years ago.

Not to say they don't still whine...but they have their reasons.

Man those guys suck at making charts, it looks like some classes are doing more than triple the dps of the rets!

 

[Haly]

Afflic at the top wha?

Why?

When did it get buffed.

 

[Weenerz]

Ah shaman, always towards the low end of dps charts.

 

[Rapstah]

Unbiased chart.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

+Rep to rapstah

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

:lol at the chart hate. Read the article, don't flame the chart. The article wasn't made about ret paladins and whining (or whining about Survival's DPS). It was just talking about the current DPS differences in class and attempting to shed more light on Ghostcrawler's comments from last week about upcoming balance changes.

 

[Macattk15]

:lol at the chart hate. Read the article, don't flame the chart. The article wasn't made about ret paladins and whining (or whining about Survival's DPS). It was just talking about the current DPS differences in class and attempting to shed more light on Ghostcrawler's comments from last week about upcoming balance changes.

If Fury is close to median ... then why was Ghostcrawler talking about nerfing Heroic Strikes damage? Are they going to raise something else?

I hate that Ghostcrawler guy with a passion from long ago ... seems nothing changed.

 

[dimb]

If Fury is close to median ... then why was Ghostcrawler talking about nerfing Heroic Strikes damage?

Look at class balance in Wrath.
Now look at class balance in Cata.

Use these metrics to judge how intelligent Ghostcrawler is.

 

[Ferrio]

Prot Warrior AOE damage = FUCKING NUTS.

Wish it was like that when aoe tanking was the norm in wrath.

 

[Macattk15]

Look at class balance in Wrath.
Now look at class balance in Cata.

Use these metrics to judge how intelligent Ghostcrawler is.

Oh I'm well aware at how retarded he is .. or at least seems.

I just wish they could get shit figured out. They beta tested raids. Could they not see the huge disparities in DPS between classes then? That and I'm reading how it is better to just bring ranged alts to encounters over melee due to damage taken .... what the fuck Blizzard?

I like WoW. I like a lot of the things in WoW. But some of the shit just frustrates me to no end. The rollercoaster of buffs / nerfs is one of them and probably the biggest. Archaeology is another. I didn't expect to hit 450 and get my epics ... but jesus fuck, I've turned in over 1400 troll fragments with no Zin'rokh while some fucker priest alt gets it seconds after hitting 450.

RNG sucks.

Prot Warrior AOE damage = FUCKING NUTS.

Wish it was like that when aoe tanking was the norm in wrath.

We were actually thinking for a while to bring in a Prot Warrior to help deal with the Parasites on the Magmaw encounter with Shockwave and Blood & Thunder.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

Feral druid is low..

And they are now nerfing our bleeds.. yet we are lower then Boomkin. Awesome...

We were actually thinking for a while to bring in a Prot Warrior to help deal with the Parasites on the Magmaw encounter with Shockwave and Blood & Thunder.

We do this..

And then tank swap after the head into the spike phase due tot he debuff he puts on the tank. Its not needed but its nicer. The extra prot warrior then helps stun the adds from a distance and helps dps. (lol dps)

 

[Dresden]

Feral druid is low..

And they are now nerfing our bleeds.. yet we are lower then Boomkin. Awesome...

Another example of PVP affecting PVE, and vice versa. Resilience isn't enough to separate the two.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

Another example of PVP affecting PVE, and vice versa. Resilience isn't enough to separate the two.

The thing is.. some people are up to 3.5k resil now.. as opposed to like 1-2 weeks ago when blizz was looking at data. I can barely do much dmg to some with bleeds now. Yes it hits hard but harder then what other classes can do.

 

[Dresden]

The thing is.. some people are up to 3.5k resil now.. as opposed to like 1-2 weeks ago when blizz was looking at data. I can barely do much dmg to some with bleeds now. Yes it hits hard but harder then what other classes can do.

I'm up to 3.1k resilience and bleeds still hit like a truck, dude. It's also constant and undispellable.

If feral druids could be kited, I think their damage would be okay, but they're the single most difficult spec to CC in the game. But I also don't want all the raiding kitties to get boned by a nerf, and I have no faith that Blizzard will be able to balance out their damage with less reliance on bleeds.

 

[Macattk15]

The thing is.. some people are up to 3.5k resil now.. as opposed to like 1-2 weeks ago when blizz was looking at data. I can barely do much dmg to some with bleeds now. Yes it hits hard but harder then what other classes can do.

I'm around 3.2k and the bleeds still mess me up. Even if I somehow manage to kill the unhamstringable Druid ... I die to the bleeds.

 

[TurtleSnatcher]

Would be great if resilience did more to bleed dmg then.

 

[TheYanger]

Yeah, BC heroics were originally more of a bitch than clearing Kara. People avoided them because the loot was not worth the effort, but the badge system and retuning the dungeons/outgearing made them worth playing.


Deathnote: I am not sure why you brought up that stuff. I should have clarified that the CC/"harder" dungeons of Cata were just a return to old design that people didn't like and were the reason we got Wrath's easier no-cc design. Actual evolution would be to try to create active ways of dealing with hard mobs, or looking at reworking more active debuffing, or giving DPS a way to tank/absorb a mob. BC --> Wrath --> Cata five mans are an example of Blizz going in a circle design wise.

Not sure what you mean that Blizz is back to a design people 'don't like'...the vast majority of players don't really care for the faceroll of wrath. Not sure what you want to be more active than CC. CC in the sheep sense is the most passive of all ways to deal with mobs, but the reason pugs struggle is because it's the only one they can handle. If you're creative there are TONS of more 'active' ways to control groups of mobs and good players will make use of them where appropriate. If you're not finding those avenues to be a hero it's not because the opportunity isn't there.

 

[J-Rzez]

I wish "lazy developer" was a bannable phrase. It's really the most idiotic thing said on this board and only used by morons.

Not just in this instance, but always. It's a nice sign that someone has no idea what they are talking about, however.

Oh please, quit crying when someone calls out Blizzard on their "decisions". I also wish people would get banned for writing nonsense quoted when they can not retort or discuss why said person "has no idea what they're talking about", or calling them a moron without an argument when they have a genuine complaint, and it's not just me discussing this. This is the most pathetic thing I've seen you write. This game gets the most of my time, Cata is easily tied for best game of 2010, and it's the best state the game's been in for years, but it flaws are especially glaring now when compared to the great things they've done for the game.

So, now, explain to me why they do that then. Just try. I'll play ball with you then, and here's the only reasons I can think of:

1. They're lazy, and/or just don't care.
2. They don't have the budget in the art team.
3. They're struggling for fresh ideas in art.

These are tier pieces we're talking about here. These are supposed to be, and such originally described as class iconic armor which every class will strive for. So why is it cool for Wars to look like DKs, Pallies to look like Wars, and DKs to have the War Tier helm and Paladin shoulders? Now it's, we can't do dyes for armors due to art, but here's 3 different colors of the same tier set.

It's a legitimate complaint, get over it. Obviously, they have the budget, so it's either 1 or 3, perhaps both.

 

[Flib]

Blizzard's actual teams are a lot smaller than you'd expect. Not sure about their art team, but the design team (under Ghostcrawler) is like 5 guys total, including him. I think the quest/world design team is 5 or 6 people. Partially how they keep their consistency.

 

[scoobs]

that chart is totally unrepresentative of what I've experienced. Frost DKs = feral druids > surv hunters > everything else

 

[Manus]

Yeah I was wondering why the plate shoulder DPS that dropped off the boss in BH looked exactly the same as the Warrior tier set.

 

[Tacitus_]

The feral fix is "simple". They are going to switch damage from bleeds into instant attacks, be it auto attack or the combo point generators/non bleed finishers.
And yeah I know, although the fix is simple, it's gonna take a lot of tuning to get it right.


Oh and they stealth nerfed Tol Barad. Granted only 360 honor for a win. Couldn't get inside an offensive TB after the hotfix and now when I finally could, it's hotfixed to 360 honor.
FML

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

I think I've pretty much decided I'm only an alt leveler. As soon as I get to max level I get bored. I don't have the unbroken and consistent time available to raid or even break into heroics really (I queued for a random heroic the other day and between queue and crappy groups it was 3 hours before I was done with HoO--not really the kind of time I can afford to spend now that my vacation is over).

I'm working on my third 85 now (82 warrior, leveling as Arms) and just really enjoy this journey for some reason (I also have yet to drag a character to Vash, just because I can't get over the fact that it is underwater). Arms is also a ton of fun. It's a completely different beast than my other 2 85s (Survival Hunter and Prot Pally), but it's the one spec so far that made me feel power auras was an essential installation.

I do have a gripe about hunters in general though--I'd love to try out MM, but right now Survival completely outstrips it in DPS. I've always loved Survival and used to play it even though it was an inferior spec because of the added CC of Wyvern Sting. Now I feel like I don't even have an option with the other specs. Two forms of GREAT CC and insane DPS is just too hard to pass up.

But I do really like my hunter--and Camouflage as an 85 ability is pretty much the coolest thing out there. Ancient Kings was dumberwang and I'm not excited for Leap.

Can't decide who to bring up next. I'm still toying with my 55 shaman, but that too boring for me. Maybe once you get maelstrom and wolves it opens up, but that's a lot of boring away. Maybe the 72 druid or priest. Hrm...

 

[Dresden]

I think I've pretty much decided I'm only an alt leveler. As soon as I get to max level I get bored. I don't have the unbroken and consistent time available to raid or even break into heroics really (I queued for a random heroic the other day and between queue and crappy groups it was 3 hours before I was done with HoO--not really the kind of time I can afford to spend now that my vacation is over).

That's why I got into pvp. Hop into a quick BG, or do some arena games when your team is on.

Although you might have a hard time finding a competent team as a hunter.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

That's why I got into pvp. Hop into a quick BG, or do some arena games when your team is on.

Although you might have a hard time finding a competent team as a hunter.

I've actually been thinking about PVP. Arms is really fun, so I may give it a try. Too bad everyone else is going to be decked out in Honor gear despite not actually earning any of it. :lol

 

[J-Rzez]

Blizzard's actual teams are a lot smaller than you'd expect. Not sure about their art team, but the design team (under Ghostcrawler) is like 5 guys total, including him. I think the quest/world design team is 5 or 6 people. Partially how they keep their consistency.

I wonder how big their teams are too, because situations like this make me wonder what's going on over there. Are they on that much of a bare-bones team, with most of their manpower on Titan? Are they pinching pennies over there for no reason? Or do they just not care, knowing people will continue to play, so why bother thus being lazy?

Yeah I was wondering why the plate shoulder DPS that dropped off the boss in BH looked exactly the same as the Warrior tier set.

They've been doing this for a while now, "copy+paste+paintbucket" tier sets since Wrath (pvp sets and tier in TBC, not as offensive at least) where other classes started to look like the iconic other class's armor set. Hunters wearing Rogue T8 helm and shoulders, disgusting really.

Why don't they understand people want to stand out with their characters in the game? Instead, they're further diluting said individuality. Ass-backwards really.

 

[J-Rzez]

Looks like Blizzard hot-fixed TB now. "420" honor per win now via the bridge (as attackers). Nice that they further punished the people for their own mistakes via stupid design.

 

[Weenerz]

Good riddance, I hate win traders. I don't care that it's a badly designed zone, win trading is fucking stupid.

 

[J-Rzez]

Good riddance, I hate win traders. I don't care that it's a badly designed zone, win trading is fucking stupid.

I agree, when I got in, I gave them hell and tried to snipe the bases from the allies. Though not many others helped for obvious reason lol.

 

[Aesthet1c]

So my guild is starting our first raid on Wednesday. Is there a specific instance we should be starting with? We picked the Baradin Hold because I've heard he's easy and he drops T11, but beyond that, what is the next easiest boss to tackle? Also, what is the typical progression path? Pick an instance and stick with it until the end? Or work on getting the first few bosses down in each before moving on?

 

[SiegfriedFM]

The thing about dyes is that every single item in the game would have to be recoloured in all possible colors, since there are no hue overlays in the graphics engine. While there are variations on most items, there's not on all. That's a lot of work.

Also, it would mean that people would all either be:
a) emo black
b) white
c) totally random clown colours worse than any TBC gear ever
d) trying to make skin coloured pants

Judging from what normally happens when you give people colour edit in online games, at least.

 

[PatzCU]

I personally like that armor can't be recolored. Right now its being used to differentiate the achievements of players. If you make it to 2200 in arena/BGs, you get a different colored armor set, and the same goes for clearing heroic raid content.

People may find it silly or vain, but the social aspect of any MMO is what keeps it running.

 

[Sai-kun]

So my guild is starting our first raid on Wednesday. Is there a specific instance we should be starting with? We picked the Baradin Hold because I've heard he's easy and he drops T11, but beyond that, what is the next easiest boss to tackle? Also, what is the typical progression path? Pick an instance and stick with it until the end? Or work on getting the first few bosses down in each before moving on?

I think most of the people in my BWD raid last night were between 340-355 ilvl, and we did pretty awesome, I think. I don't know if BWD is the starting point for raids this tier, but it seemed easy/challenging enough for us.

 

[Flib]

So my guild is starting our first raid on Wednesday. Is there a specific instance we should be starting with? We picked the Baradin Hold because I've heard he's easy and he drops T11, but beyond that, what is the next easiest boss to tackle? Also, what is the typical progression path? Pick an instance and stick with it until the end? Or work on getting the first few bosses down in each before moving on?

The Baradin Hold boss is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than the other starting bosses, so definitely hit that up. After that, I'd recommend probably starting on Omnitron Defense System (Blackwing Descent in general), mainly because you can get screwed with weekly RNG on Halfus (Bastion of Twilight).

 

[Aesthet1c]

Awesome, thanks for the help guys. BWD it is.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

If Fury is close to median ... then why was Ghostcrawler talking about nerfing Heroic Strikes damage? Are they going to raise something else?

I hate that Ghostcrawler guy with a passion from long ago ... seems nothing changed.

His big problem is that he seems to make decisions on changes fast and without an eye to the future. Every change to Holy Priests from 3.0 on was this, breaking one vase in the act of gluing the last one together. Watch, what they buff in recompensence for HS's nerf will be broken in tier 12.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

hmm I see.. thanks for your input. I remember even the easiest BC heroics (Mechanar, Ramparts, Slave Pens) the trash could easily wipe an unprepared group, and the toughest ones (Durnholde, Dark Portal, Shattered Halls) players actively avoided even if it was the daily! Durnholde was hell with its constant ambushes of 4-5 mobs at once including enemy casters and dragon trash that hit like mac trucks, Dark Portal was an extreme gear check with the constant waves of enemies, and Shattered Halls was just a nightmare of ambushes, 6-7 enemy pulls, traps, that freaking assassin hallway, and evil bosses. Umm.. so anything like that in Cata?

Those were the 3 and Auchenai Crypts were the ones I didn't do till after the (common sense) buff to epics and the first mild nerfs. I don't feel too bad, as SH was like that as it was a gatekeeper for TK, (AC had garbage and little of it, OH virtually required a Rogue, who was dead weight in any (read: most) other heroics with magical 360 cleaves).

 

[hamchan]

Looks like Blizzard hot-fixed TB now. "420" honor per win now via the bridge (as attackers). Nice that they further punished the people for their own mistakes via stupid design.

Hmmm so it's pretty much back to square one with one faction owning it for a week.

 

[water_wendi]

Anyone else think its odd that there is like one quest where you can determine how it ends? im referring to the Mount Hyjal quest where you decide whether the harpy leader lives or dies.

 

[charlequin]

I personally like that armor can't be recolored. Right now its being used to differentiate the achievements of players. If you make it to 2200 in arena/BGs, you get a different colored armor set, and the same goes for clearing heroic raid content.

If there were a vanity feature of this sort that I'd want to see, it'd be less the ability to recolor existing armor (which as people note has all kinds of problems) and more the ability to "unlock" the appearance of tier sets by completing them and then being able to have your character display visually as wearing any such set you've unlocked. (And/or including multiple Blizzard-designed palette swaps of the same armor and letting the player decide which one shows up once they've completed the set.)

The real vanity issue I wish they'd address is underlying character appearance -- skin tone, facial features, hair, etc. I think spending some time and money on completely redoing this and opening up significantly more control (along with much better models overall) would be a worthwhile pursuit.

 

[Ferrio]

I was actually kinda disturbed that the questline in Twilight is about the genocide of a entire race.

Spoiler

Black dragonflight

.

If there were a vanity feature of this sort that I'd want to see, it'd be less the ability to recolor existing armor (which as people note has all kinds of problems) and more the ability to "unlock" the appearance of tier sets by completing them and then being able to have your character display visually as wearing any such set you've unlocked. (And/or including multiple Blizzard-designed palette swaps of the same armor and letting the player decide which one shows up once they've completed the set.)

That'd be nice, I'd wear Rogue's Tier 9 for the rest of my days.

The real vanity issue I wish they'd address is underlying character appearance -- skin tone, facial features, hair, etc. I think spending some time and money on completely redoing this and opening up significantly more control (along with much better models overall) would be a worthwhile pursuit.

Except most of that appearance would be covered up 99% of the time.

 

[charlequin]

I was actually kinda disturbed that the questline in Twilight is about the genocide of a entire race.

Spoiler

Black dragonflight

.

There's a questline in

Spoiler

the Badlands

that might make you feel a tiny bit
better about it.

Except most of that appearance would be covered up 99% of the time.

AFAICT most people leave their hats off.

 

[notworksafe]

It's a legitimate complaint, get over it. Obviously, they have the budget, so it's either 1 or 3, perhaps both.

Wrong again. As was mentioned before, colors are not simply an overlay on gear. I suppose you were too busy with incorrect assumptions of laziness without putting thought into your messages.

Blizzard may have a sizable art team (in actuality, I have no idea how big it is) but the thought of putting them to work remaking each asset in every bit of gear that is out there in every color that is possible is beyond silly.

However, in your mind Blizzard has infinite time, money, and manpower. No wonder you expect so much from them, you think they are "game wizards" with the power to wave a wand and fix all problems and do so out of a sheer laziness and a personal contempt for you.

That is why I am against the phrase "developer laziness". Because it comes from people who have no idea how programming a game or making art assets works almost all of the time. I don't just mean J-Rzez either. I see that kind of mindset all over this board, and it's obnoxious.

 

[dimb]

AFAICT most people leave their hats off.

Probably because if they leave it on they wind up looking like this:

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Anyone else think its odd that there is like one quest where you can determine how it ends? im referring to the Mount Hyjal quest where you decide whether the harpy leader lives or dies.

I've done it on three different characters now and I just can't bring myself to let her live, I'm not sure what my problem is. Does anything happen if you have mercy?

 

[Ferrio]

I've done it on three different characters now and I just can't bring myself to let her live, I'm not sure what my problem is. Does anything happen if you have mercy?

Not much. The elf lets her go, says something about you being a better person than her I think. I forget.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Looks like Blizzard hot-fixed TB now. "420" honor per win now via the bridge (as attackers). Nice that they further punished the people for their own mistakes via stupid design.

I don't get why they designed a battle that's so obviously flawed at its core and just let it stay that way through beta. It doesn't really make sense. I mean, WG was pretty fun, even if it wasn't perfect. I'm not sure I understood what the goal was, because TB seems to be virtually impossible to win if the Defending force is even making an effort.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

However, in your mind Blizzard has infinite time, money, and manpower.

When it comes to games, it would stand to reason that as far as revenue goes they're about as close as it gets...

I don't understand why Blizzard's choices aren't viewed as arguable unless you want to be branded an out of touch douchebag.

Blizzard's initial choice to develop art assets in a way that makes palette shifts difficult isn't the consumer's fault--and people should be allowed to say, "Man, I'm surprised they don't revamp their system, especially considering how limited our character customization feels." Because honestly, it does feel like an oversight. And if some people use the word "lazy" it doesn't make the argument less valid that their really "should" be more armor in the game.

Honestly, if they're going to milk another 5 years out of this game (and they will), then sooner or later Blizzard is going to have to revisit these visual issues--and until then, they're valid complaints by paying customers.

As an anecdote, I was running a heroic the other day and unfortunately managed to get in a group with another hunter. We looked nearly identical--when I inspected him, we actually didn't have much overlapping gear at all. It is disappointing to go into heroic content and not see a change to your character. I mean, what's the point of getting "better" gear to kill harder things when you're really just killing the exact same monsters and looting the exact same gear, only with a different ilvl? It's absolutely fine to disagree on this point, but for me, I like to watch a visual progression. Others find the farming to be enough. Different strokes.

Really, customization is one thing, but diversity would be a good start. I'm sure that the teams at Blizzard aren't just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, but it's not like we can't hypothetically wonder what is going on sometimes.

I don't get why they designed a battle that's so obviously flawed at its core and just let it stay that way through beta. It doesn't really make sense. I mean, WG was pretty fun, even if it wasn't perfect. I'm not sure I understood what the goal was, because TB seems to be virtually impossible to win if the Defending force is even making an effort.

Don't let Twig hear you say that or it'll be another flame-war.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

All I know is, Vanilla and BC's tier loot, even when it was ugly as shit (Prophecy lolz), was at least iconic. And they STILL have not beaten T2's Priest and Pally sets. Godlike art. Plus they didn't reuse that stuff until the next expansion.

Now, quite frankly, its reused. Alot. In the same tier. And its just not good looking often, even the ugly sets are tending to be forgettable ugly.

A bad corollary is that more are getting this stuff than ever, yet it looks blah now. They hungered for the filet mignon we clawed our way to, but now we're all getting salisbury steak.

I doubt their team sizes have shrank over the years, so it would be that they're just not putting out quality or quantity in this field that touches more and more.

I was actually kinda disturbed that the questline in Twilight is about the genocide of a entire race.

Spoiler

Black dragonflight

.

Every time you run into those guys, over and over again, they're doing the most evil, vile shit. They got what's coming to them! :lol