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[Alex]

Are they fucking serious? It's a content patch without any content? :lol I mean the stuff in 4.1 is neat, but it's not the meaty raid content I sub for.

If there's no raid content in 4.1, I will be canning my sub, I mean all I'd have left for an entire content patch is a couple of hard modes? No way am I paying for that. I like the hard modes and all, but I'm not in the type of guild that should be expected to clear them anyway. We're a fairly average, fairly casual guild and we're in all 359 at this point with a baby sprinkle of 372, so I don't really get the decision.

Edit: ah... if theyre changing their patch style, I guess that's not as bad, maybe I'm just looking it at from the WOTLK perspective, but still this is pretty bogus. This patch better get off the PTR soon then, and 4.2 better be on the horizon pretty quick.

I could see it going on for another month or so, I suppose, but really if they start pulling this horseshit of expecting everyone to down overtuned hard modes while withholding content I'm out.

 

[Alex]

Oh oh, is that Spirit Link in the notes? My rage is slightly diminished for now.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Maybe a CoT raid? The staff is tied to that.

 

[mclem]

Are they fucking serious? It's a content patch without any content? :lol I mean the stuff in 4.1 is neat, but it's not the meaty raid content I sub for.

If there's no raid content in 4.1, I will be canning my sub, I mean all I'd have left for an entire content patch is a couple of hard modes? No way am I paying for that. I like the hard modes and all, but I'm not in the type of guild that should be expected to clear them anyway. We're a fairly average guild and we're in all 359 at this point, so I don't really get the decision.

Edit: ah... if theyre changing their patch style, I guess that's not as bad, maybe I'm just looking it at from the WOTLK perspective, but still this is pretty bogus. This patch better get off the PTR soon then, and 4.2 better be on the horizon pretty quick.

The press release at the end of the eurogamer post does suggest that 4.2 will be 'very soon' after 4.1.

I think it harkens back to Vanilla, actually. Vanilla had tons of patches, not many of which actually added significant content. The main feature in each:

1.1 (7 Nov 2004): Release (there doesn't seem to have been a 1.0?)
1.2 (18 Dec 2004): Added Maraudon.
1.3 (7 Mar 2005): Added Dire Maul, Azuregos, Lord Kazzak
1.4 (5 May 2005): Honor system
1.5 (7 June 2005): Battlegrounds (Warsong Gulch, Alterac Valley)
1.6 (12 July 2005): Added Blackwing Lair
1.7 (13 September 2005): Added Zul'Gurub, Arathi Basin
1.8 (10 October 2005): Added Green Dragons; revamped Silithus
1.9 (3 January 2006): Added Ahn'Qiraj (both flavours)
1.10 (28 March 2006): Weather, Dungeon Set 2
1.11 (20 June 2006): Added Naxxramas
1.12 (22 August 2006): Cross-realm BGs

While I don't think we'll go back to the days of one patch a month, I could see something akin to this, maybe with, say, six patches over the course of the expansion?

 

[Alex]

Yeah, im mostly lookin at Wrath and slightly BC for scheduling. Classic is an impossible, uneven and quite frankly goofy schedule.

I'd like something about the style of scheduled updates, but perhaps twice as many of them as BC/LK. So end an expansion on 4.6 instead of 4.3

 

[Bisnic]

I'm going to guess 4.1 will be out near the end of march, and maybe 4.2 will be, at most, 2 months later? We all know "soon" for Blizzard is rarely 1 month. But maybe im wrong and 4.2 will be out before may.

 

[mclem]

I'm going to guess 4.1 will be out near the end of march, and maybe 4.2 will be, at most, 2 months later? We all know "soon" for Blizzard is rarely 1 month. But maybe im wrong and 4.2 will be out before may.

My gut feeling is that as soon as 4.1 comes off the PTR, 4.2 goes onto it, and they say PTR generally lasts about 2 months... so that seems a reasonable benchmark to work to.

 

[J-Rzez]

Well, that's an interesting development.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-04-firelands-raid-will-not-be-in-wow-patch-4-1

No Firelands in 4.1. If I'm reading this right, they don't think guilds in general have got far enough through the raids yet. So we'd be looking at the 5-mans with the next raid coming later in 4.2 (they're also planning more, faster content patches - again, somewhat more akin to Vanilla).

I think this fits great for our guild, although the ones clamouring for more content won't like it. Having said that, I don't think there's all that many guilds at that stage yet.

Nope, do not want, at all. We didn't clear HMs yet, nor actually do enough of us care to and people are signing on far less like myself. Now I'm concerned if "more content faster" is the same route, just we'll get short changed in the end on raids.

 

[Mairu]

I'm going to guess 4.1 will be out near the end of march, and maybe 4.2 will be, at most, 2 months later? We all know "soon" for Blizzard is rarely 1 month. But maybe im wrong and 4.2 will be out before may.

Brack indicated that patch 4.1 is roughly two months away. "We've started to put a build up on the PTR [Public Test Realm] so that players can take a look at it. Usually we're on the PTR for six to eight-ish weeks, plus or minus four weeks I would say. So that's probably where we are in terms of the development of 4.1."

Man, 2 months + another 2+ months for Firelands seems like an awfully long wait

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Like ICC in 3.3, Firelands AIN'T DONE. There's no way they'd hold a nearly bug-free and tested raid sit like this (unless hubris has taken them).

It just doesn't look good that they're back-pedaling; why put out art from Firelands (newly ambulatory Ragnaros and everything) just to schlepp it off into another. I mean, shit, the two things they are putting out are warmed over small raids from back in the day anyways. It just don't look good, and frankly looks as if they're moving into that "holding pattern" that much of Wrath wallowed in. Don't. Look. Good.

The press release at the end of the eurogamer post does suggest that 4.2 will be 'very soon' after 4.1.

I think it harkens back to Vanilla, actually. Vanilla had tons of patches, not many of which actually added significant content. The main feature in each:

1.1 (7 Nov 2004): Release (there doesn't seem to have been a 1.0?)
1.2 (18 Dec 2004): Added Maraudon.
1.3 (7 Mar 2005): Added Dire Maul, Azuregos, Lord Kazzak
1.4 (5 May 2005): Honor system
1.5 (7 June 2005): Battlegrounds (Warsong Gulch, Alterac Valley)
1.6 (12 July 2005): Added Blackwing Lair
1.7 (13 September 2005): Added Zul'Gurub, Arathi Basin
1.8 (10 October 2005): Added Green Dragons; revamped Silithus
1.9 (3 January 2006): Added Ahn'Qiraj (both flavours)
1.10 (28 March 2006): Weather, Dungeon Set 2
1.11 (20 June 2006): Added Naxxramas
1.12 (22 August 2006): Cross-realm BGs

While I don't think we'll go back to the days of one patch a month, I could see something akin to this, maybe with, say, six patches over the course of the expansion?

Everything in there north of 1.6 was to be launch (but they shelved them half-finished to get it out the door before Xmas as Vivendi was in the red). South of there was alot of the old team's Half Finished Instances method of always having something on-tap to finish up and put out when needed. Much of what they did in Vanilla was not by choice, but elegantly playing the hand they were dealt, (hence WoW ending up awesome).

 

[Boken]

Mages noooooo.

 

[Thoraxes]

I don't know how much of the same content I can take for another 3 months or so. People are already stopping logging on because they don't want to do the rest of the hardmodes besides the ones we got down.

Firelands also appeared to have been bringing with a new daily quest hub and reputation faction as well, and to see it all gone is a little frustrating.

Hopefully 4.1 comes out in the next two weeks, because it can't be that hard to release only 2 heroic dungeons.

This is the first time i've been upset about a decision Blizzard has made with a patch. The main reason most of us even log on anymore is because the rest of the current content is irrelevant to most of us because we have our mains and our alts fully decked out in 359 purples, and most of us are a quarter to half done with getting our heroic pieces already.

I'm giving it till May, and then i'm out after that.

EDIT: I realized it's not so much the lack of Firelands in 4.1 as much as it is the lack of any real content that has longevity in it. Sure heroics are fun for the first two-three times, but then it just gets old, and is just going through the motions again.

(sorry for the rage-post)

 

[markot]

Pretty stupid move by blizz. So itll be like 6 months from launch till they release Firelands?

 

[charlequin]

I'm actually pretty glad that they're not bumping up the raid tier quite yet on a purely selfish level (we're very far behind, hoping to maybe dive into BWD this week) but I do think it's weird that they're adding a tier of dungeons that only contains two. Seems like it'll get annoying just running ZG or ZA every time you want to queue for a random.

Like ICC in 3.3, Firelands AIN'T DONE. There's no way they'd hold a nearly bug-free and tested raid sit like this (unless hubris has taken them).

Well, duh. This news shouldn't be read as them pushing back Firelands (which, average guild progress be damned, they would squeeze out if it was ready) but rather as them pulling forward ZA and ZG to get something out sooner.

Four months from now until a new raid tier seems pretty crazy, though. That'd be seven months without a raid update.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Pretty stupid move by blizz. So itll be like 6 months from launch till they release Firelands?

So we are like 3 months into the expansion right? My guild is only 7/13 H25 and I know most people aren't anywhere near that. How is this a stupid move?

34 guilds around the world have cleared the heroic 25 man content, I don't think they are doing anyone a disservice by waiting a couple more months.

 

[markot]

Well, if its like 2 months till even the first content patch, the 2... 'new' 5 mans, then its like 5 months from launch with no content.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Well, if its like 2 months till even the first content patch, the 2... 'new' 5 mans, then its like 5 months from launch with no content.

Yeah but why do people expect content when they haven't even seen half the current content? I don't get this.

 

[ToyMachine228]

The "most guilds haven't even touched heroics yet" argument fails on every level. Why? Because a good 90% of guilds if not more are not, and will never be good enough to seriously tackle heroic content. Heck, I'm playing with the best group of players I've ever played with and we're 1/13 on Heroic. I was personally looking forward to Firelands and/or CoT much more than doing the same content, just skull fuckingly harder for an extra couple months. I'm pretty disappointed.

 

[markot]

Most people dont have much interest in heroics really >.<

 

[Belfast]

According to the Eurogamer article, 4.1 may be as much as 2 months out (say, end of April), and 4.2 would probably be on PTR a bit after that. Assuming that takes another 6-8 weeks of testing, we're looking at a max of 4 months *from now.*

 

[ToyMachine228]

In addition to what I posted above, and the next post after that, it's going to further build the problem of elite guilds who do clear heroic content, being even better geared because they had to wait so long for a new raid, they'll burn through the new content when it does finally hit in 4.2 and then have nothing to do except farm gear again. Which is always part of raiding and progressing as a guild, but people lose interest when you're doing the same content over and over and over without excitement.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

In addition to what I posted above, and the next post after that, it's going to further build the problem of elite guilds who do clear heroic content, being even better geared because they had to wait so long for a new raid, they'll burn through the new content when it does finally hit in 4.2 and then have nothing to do except farm gear again. Which is always part of raiding and progressing as a guild, but people lose interest when you're doing the same content over and over and over without excitement.

Yet those same guilds keep playing. If you want to keep doing normal raids until the next set comes out that's your problem. Don't say you don't have the time to put into heroic raids either because we raid 3 times a week and are still successful.

Are you saying good guilds shouldn't have an advantage? Everything pretty much gets reset at release of a new expansion, there is your even playing field.

 

[ToyMachine228]

Yet those same guilds keep playing. If you want to keep doing normal raids until the next set comes out that's your problem. Don't say you don't have the time to put into heroic raids either because we raid 3 times a week and are still successful.

Are you saying good guilds shouldn't have an advantage? Everything pretty much gets reset at release of a new expansion, there is your even playing field.

I'm not saying good guilds shouldn't have an advantage at all. I'm saying it's easy to lose interest. My guild has started heroic content and all of us were looking forward to doing new raids not because we're all 100% geared out in 372's with nothing to do, but because it's just plain more fun to do and see new stuff. It's a game. That's why everyone plays it. Because it's fun. Doing the same content for another 2 months is less fun than doing new content by default.

And you're right, if guilds don't want to move on to heroic raids, they don't have to. What I'm saying is many guilds CAN'T because they don't possess the skill level to do heroic content. They need "normal" raiding content. And just as it's "your problem" to choose to only do normal content, it's also your decision to do Firelands when it comes out, or to get more gear before starting it. Firelands being included in 4.1 would not have hurt anyone.

Edit: Also a strange decision considering how much attention Rift is getting.

 

[Sciz]

Still banging our heads against Cho'Gall.

I can live with this.


edit: And at any rate, they've been working on Firelands since before launch and it still isn't done. I don't think there's any real reason to believe that they'd actually start working on it faster if it were still planned for 4.1 rather than letting the patch languish on the PTR forever.

 

[yanhero]

It seems to me people just have a problem with Blizz calling this 4.1. If it was called 4.0.7, and Firelands was called 4.1, I don't think a lot of people would be as bothered.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I'm not saying good guilds shouldn't have an advantage at all. I'm saying it's easy to lose interest. My guild has started heroic content and all of us were looking forward to doing new raids not because we're all 100% geared out in 372's with nothing to do, but because it's just plain more fun to do and see new stuff. It's a game. That's why everyone plays it. Because it's fun. Doing the same content for another 2 months is less fun than doing new content by default.

And you're right, if guilds don't want to move on to heroic raids, they don't have to. What I'm saying is many guilds CAN'T because they don't possess the skill level to do heroic content. They need "normal" raiding content. And just as it's "your problem" to choose to only do normal content, it's also your decision to do Firelands when it comes out, or to get more gear before starting it. Firelands being included in 4.1 would not have hurt anyone.

Edit: Also a strange decision considering how much attention Rift is getting.

The people who have downed every boss in heroic mode should be the disappointed ones. Everyone else has a challenging encounter to face that will reward thrill and gear.Why is working hard to kill a new boss more fun than working hard to kill a boss on heroic mode? In both cases you're giving all you got and pressing the same buttons to accomplish something you haven't succeeded in yet.

You may say having to kill the bosses that are on farm to get to the challenge is a pain/boring compared to new content, but everyone could use an alt and do it in a different perspective.

 

[TheExodu5]

Whatever. I could use a break from raids so I can play a bit more Rift in the next few months.

We just cleared Nef and will be starting HMs next week. I don't expect we'll get too far, though.

 

[davepoobond]

we had like 8 months of naxx before we even had ulduar right?

 

[Angry Grimace]

"Wow," is all I said.

They shoulda called this patch 4.0.8, and maybe not said repeatedly that Firelands was going to be in 4.1. I can't fathom how they didn't think people weren't going to be massively disappointed by this; they could have just said, "This isn't the Firelands patch" right from the beginning, but they didn't for no reason at all.

Now we get to hear Jrez repeatedly tell us how much Blizzard sucks, and to our chagrin we'll agree with his basic premise.

we had like 8 months of naxx before we even had ulduar right?

Like 5 and a half, but it took like 3 times as long to hit 80 than it did to hit 85.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

The cross realm dungeon finder was released with ICC on December 8, 2009? Doing heroics before it is a blur.

During Naxx and Ulduar... you could only do them with people on your realm?

 

[Johnlenham]

Good for me as im only half done gearing up as a tank/dps with loads still to do but yeah must suck for people out in front!

 

[Cyrillus]

The cross realm dungeon finder was released with ICC on December 8, 2009? Doing heroics before it is a blur.

During Naxx and Ulduar... you could only do them with people on your realm?

It was a crazy time. People spammed trade chat back then for groups, and you had to be summoned to the dungeon uphill both ways!

 

[lordmrw]

I was going to skip raiding and wait for Firelands but I guess I have no choice now other than to cancel my sub. Not really disappointed, but I do think they should have come right out and said Firelands wasn't this patch instead of releasing preview artwork and such and getting people hyped. Dumb.

 

[ToyMachine228]

It doesn't help that Firelands was originally supposed to be in Cataclysm at launch at either. There's going to be a lot of negative reaction from the player base that doesn't have the skill level to do heroic modes, many of whom will cancel their subscriptions.

 

[Dunlop]

The centre of the room is actually a lift to Sinestra, although it's not used in normal. Player AoE tends not to show up on mobile terrain, which is true in this situation too. Having said that, I didn't notice the *important* things to avoid (shadow crash things, fire circles) not showing up on it; I'm pretty sure they were completely visible.

thank we figured out good positioning but the night almost ended with me about to snap my KB in half.

We started attempting to 2 heal it, Hpriest (me) and Hpally. I would go out for the raid heals on the add phases but Pally could not keep the tank on Cho'gal up. We adjusted to I would be in range to help heal both tanks and still no dice.

Switched to disc for bubbles and the tank was still getting hit too hard on that phase, even with 2 dedicated healers we were just skimming by if at all. Went to 3 healers and by then for the last hour of our raid all I saw was red.

I was throwing my biggest oh shit heals on tank (while he was also being healed by the pally) and he was still dropping like a stone, there was literally no bigger heals I could throw. Between the 3 of us we were averaging over 12k hps

After the raid when my sanity returned I read up and it looks like the issue would be worship not being removed fast enough so his hits were exponentially harder than they should have been, so at least now I know what to look for and we should go back to being able to 2 heal this

I cannot remember the last time I was so enraged in a raid

 

[mclem]

There's going to be a lot of negative reaction from the player base that doesn't have the skill level to do heroic modes, many of whom will cancel their subscriptions.

I can't really get my head around this frame of mind. I'm not suggesting it's wrong, just that it's so anathema to how I think that I don't comprehend it.

If I don't have the skill to do heroic modes, my overwhelming desire is to get better until I do. I'm not willing to go "I'm just not good enough, so it's not worth trying".

I suspect part of the difference of opinion is the fact that I see heroics as a natural next step of content, and so - after going to the trouble of getting good enough to get halfway through the content, I don't want to just stop there. Others may not see them as such, and that's fine.

 

[J-Rzez]

It doesn't help that Firelands was originally supposed to be in Cataclysm at launch at either. There's going to be a lot of negative reaction from the player base that doesn't have the skill level to do heroic modes, many of whom will cancel their subscriptions.

Yeah, I do remember that early on firelands was supposed to be day and date, "We think having two tiers of raiding on day one is a great opportunity and value for customers" lol. I don't think it's people who lack the skill to do it neither. We completed ICC fully and are capable for doing this, but it's just this time around people don't necessarily feel "up" to it for whatever reason. I know when I heard we were going to start hardmodes, I was like "..." lol. Now though we struggle to get people on to do the same freaking content over and over. Sucks. Best part is it's not that they're not "gaming" at all or have time, as we're all on RIFT instead.

Now we get to hear Jrez repeatedly tell us how much Blizzard sucks, and to our chagrin we'll agree with his basic premise.

It hurts so good though!

 

[mclem]

After the raid when my sanity returned I read up and it looks like the issue would be worship not being removed fast enough so his hits were exponentially harder than they should have been, so at least now I know what to look for and we should go back to being able to 2 heal this

Worship's a devious mechanic. It's directly responsible for tank deaths, but it's not *obviously* so, which means guilds who encounter the fight fresh can tend to get thrown - as you did - with why the tank gets flattened so readily. It's also a mechanic that's not too hard to counter with appropriate strategies, but then random circumstances in the fight can break those strategies which require the raid to think on-the-fly.

I like to think of Cho'gall as a fight which tests whether you *understand* strategies, as opposed to simply executing them.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

I can't really get my head around this frame of mind. I'm not suggesting it's wrong, just that it's so anathema to how I think that I don't comprehend it.

If I don't have the skill to do heroic modes, my overwhelming desire is to get better until I do. I'm not willing to go "I'm just not good enough, so it's not worth trying".

I suspect part of the difference of opinion is the fact that I see heroics as a natural next step of content, and so - after going to the trouble of getting good enough to get halfway through the content, I don't want to just stop there. Others may not see them as such, and that's fine.

Before people used to complain they never saw the content, now they get to do the easy content they complain hard modes aren't real content. The heroic fights are completely new experiences.

 

[Dunlop]

Worship's a devious mechanic. It's directly responsible for tank deaths, but it's not *obviously* so, which means guilds who encounter the fight fresh can tend to get thrown - as you did - with why the tank gets flattened so readily. It's also a mechanic that's not too hard to counter with appropriate strategies, but then random circumstances in the fight can break those strategies which require the raid to think on-the-fly.

I like to think of Cho'gall as a fight which tests whether you *understand* strategies, as opposed to simply executing them.

yup, to me it "looked" like we were removing them fast enough but truthfully it is such a healing intensive encounter that I did not check the worship stacks.

You can be sure I will now

 

[mclem]

I don't think it's people who lack the skill to do it neither. We completed ICC fully and are capable for doing this, but it's just this time around people don't necessarily feel "up" to it for whatever reason. I know when I heard we were going to start hardmodes, I was like "..." lol. Now though we struggle to get people on to do the same freaking content over and over. Sucks.

My guild does seem to be remaining motivated, but then we're only 10/12, so there's still clear 'new' bosses to down. Having said that, I'm trying to ensure the transition between normals and hardmodes works smoothly by making it clear that I regard Heroic Halfus as at least on a par with - and probably easier than - Nef. If I can get a motivated group to down *him*, hopefully they'll see that hardmodes aren't the big scary boogeyman that they're often made out to be

(Of course, heroic halfus is significantly easier than some others, but that's sort-of the point; there are heroic fights that are a natural progression in difficulty terms from the normals, rather than a significant leap-up, and if a raid leader does the required research to isolate them it can make the transition easier.)

 

[ToyMachine228]

If I don't have the skill to do heroic modes, my overwhelming desire is to get better until I do. I'm not willing to go "I'm just not good enough, so it's not worth trying".

That's because you're a more "hardcore" gamer. The WoW population like the general gaming population I suppose is more casual, despite what it may seem. I'd say a good 75% of the WoW population is casual and don't feel that "drive" to get better. You've all seen it. You've all done pugs with plenty of bad players. And not only are they bad, but they blame it on other things or other players. They don't have an interest in reading Elitist Jerks and raid strategies. And you can fault them for it. But from Blizzard's point of view, they need to keep delivering content that population can handle. There's going to be a sizable chunk of the population that does indeed raid, that isn't interested in heroic modes that needs normal difficulty content to keep them vested and interested. My guild is in heroic content, so I'm not saying OH FUCK BLIZZ, heroic modes don't count etc. But I am saying Blizzard needs to consider that. And for anyone who's in a raiding guild, 5-man's with 354 loot or whatever it is, don't really deliver any new incentive gear wise. It'll be cool to get in there and see some stuff for a while but it's charm won't last long.

My guild killed Nef for the first time and soon as we did we were all talking about how much we are looking forward to new raids. The very next week we killed Halfus on Heroic in two hours of attempts. So skill level is not our problem. Staying interested in clearing heroic mode content for another four months may be. We will see.

Edit: Also consider exactly what the content of 4.1 is. Two re-worked instances from Vanilla and BC, and opening Old Ironforge. Not exactly..."new".

 

[mclem]

The WoW population like the general gaming population I suppose is more casual, despite what it may seem. I'd say a good 75% of the WoW population is casual and don't feel that "drive" to get better.

That may be true, but of *those* groups, how many are still good enough to complete the normal-mode content that's available? I find it hard to believe that there's very many groups that genuinely believes they're incapable of getting good enough for hardmodes (motivation is a very different matter, I should add) which is still able to down Cho'gall, Al'akir and Nefarian.

If that can do those fights, I would argue, they have the skill level to do the easier hardmodes. If they can't do those fights, then they've not run out of PvE normal-mode content. Either way, I don't really see it as a reason to get angry.

I'll be interested to see how Blizzard pitch the difficulty of Firelands. It may be designed such that it's actually a bit too challenging for people who aren't through the first tier normals. I think that's unlikely, but it *would* be consistent with how they tuned the first tier.

Edit: Also consider exactly what the content of 4.1 is. Two re-worked instances from Vanilla and BC, and opening Old Ironforge. Not exactly..."new".

The reworkings for ZG at least are pretty extensive, from early reports. It's as new as Deadmines Heroic is; old terrain, new encounters. Not heard much first-hand about ZA, but an achievement for it appears to mention a boss name that I don't recall from the original, so there's new content there, too.

People do seem to be surprisingly attached to the idea of walking new terrain. That's another thing I Just Don't Get!

As for Old Ironforge... that's an odd one. Presumably there's a *reason* for that? I think perhaps Magni's story isn't over.


Random guess of the day: I think the Zul'Aman *timed* run - assuming it returns - will be a challenge for those people who really have cleared the raid content, at least normals.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

That's because you're a more "hardcore" gamer. The WoW population like the general gaming population I suppose is more casual, despite what it may seem. I'd say a good 75% of the WoW population is casual and don't feel that "drive" to get better. You've all seen it. You've all done pugs with plenty of bad players. And not only are they bad, but they blame it on other things or other players. They don't have an interest in reading Elitist Jerks and raid strategies. And you can fault them for it. But from Blizzard's point of view, they need to keep delivering content that population can handle. There's going to be a sizable chunk of the population that does indeed raid, that isn't interested in heroic modes that needs normal difficulty content to keep them vested and interested. My guild is in heroic content, so I'm not saying OH FUCK BLIZZ, heroic modes don't count etc. But I am saying Blizzard needs to consider that. And for anyone who's in a raiding guild, 5-man's with 354 loot or whatever it is, don't really deliver any new incentive gear wise. It'll be cool to get in there and see some stuff for a while but it's charm won't last long.

My guild killed Nef for the first time and soon as we did we were all talking about how much we are looking forward to new raids. The very next week we killed Halfus on Heroic in two hours of attempts. So skill level is not our problem. Staying interested in clearing heroic mode content for another four months may be. We will see.

I think the issue is different. Less about the drive to get better, less about being good enough to do normal mode raids, and more about not having people to get better with.

From level 1-85 you don't need to rely on anyone. Then, suddenly, you need 5-25 people investing time together to progress in an actual satisfying way.

Most gamers, even hard core gamers that invest equal or way more time, aren't playing MMO games. They can single play or co-op the same storyline. You can multiplay with whatever number of or strangers. Someone can leave at any time and not ruin your multiplayer experience. Shitty players constantly have a chance to get better, so do hella good players. So, in my mind, the most casual raiding guild is more hardcore compared to non mmo gaming and 1-85 by default.

Sure, you can do random heroics and pugs, but assholes and ninjas make it a horrible experience when you consider RNG and boss difficulty. When you random heroic and make friends you can't even recruit them since they are most likely on a different realm. You should be able to invite people from other servers into a party or raid.

If you're a mediocre player and don't have enough real life friends finding people to dedicate raiding time with would be a pain in the ass. You have the elite guilds you wouldn't have a chance to app into. More down to earth guilds that already have 10 people playing together. Shitty spam guild. You could make your own but facing the task of finding active and loyal people is hard. Paying to transfer sucks.

Say 10 mediocre players are forced to stick together like it's high school or something. I firmly believe with practice and strat, they could down boss by boss at their own pace and make it to heroic raid modes.

 

[ToyMachine228]

That may be true, but of *those* groups, how many are still good enough to complete the normal-mode content that's available? I find it hard to believe that there's very many groups that genuinely believes they're incapable of getting good enough for hardmodes (motivation is a very different matter, I should add) which is still able to down Cho'gall, Al'akir and Nefarian.

There's I believe...10 guilds on my server who are 12/12 and have been for at least a month who have not downed a single heroic mode encounter. Whether it be skill or motivation, whatever the reason, it is what it is. They're not clearing heroic content. You can fault them if you'd like, but Blizzard is interested in keeping that crowd occupied. And I think the delay of Firelands will hurt that.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

There's I believe...10 guilds on my server who are 12/12 and have been for at least a month who have not downed a single heroic mode encounter. Whether it be skill or motivation, whatever the reason, it is what it is. They're not clearing heroic content. You can fault them if you'd like, but Blizzard is interested in keeping that crowd occupied. And I think the delay of Firelands will hurt that.

If it's the same group of people, I doubt it's skill. I'd say they either don't want to, pugging people, rotating alts, or their make up keeps changing.

 

[Bisnic]

I'm glad raids arent a top priority for me like some people, or else i would be angry too if i was in a guild doing all heroic mode bosses. My casual guild just started on Bastion of Twilight, so there is no hurry for me thankfully. We all took our time gearing from heroics, seeing all the new content with alts, lvling professions and stuff.

And i sure am happy that i didnt get to start raiding right in december in week #2 or 3 like the hardcore raiders, or else i would have miss so much of the other stuff(hell, i still havent seen most of the new stuff on the Horde side) and would be cursing at Blizzard for being too slow on new raid content, just because i was one of those players who only care about getting the top gear as fast as possible. I dont understand these kind of raiders, what's the hurry?

 

[mclem]

I dont understand these kind of raiders, what's the hurry?

There's a reasonable amount of prestige from being first. Me, I had family and Christmas. It's one of the advantages of a guild that skews slightly older than the norm; there wasn't much objection to that.

 

[Bisnic]

There's a reasonable amount of prestige from being first. Me, I had family and Christmas. It's one of the advantages of a guild that skews slightly older than the norm; there wasn't much objection to that.

Yeah but who cares about that other than your own guild and the other "elite guilds" of your realm? No one. I would not sacrifice everything else the game offer(not to mention real life stuff) only for that "prestige" of being that guy or guild who want to reach the top as fast as possible (and also get bored much faster of the content at the same time, that's fun!) when 90% of your realm dont know nor care about you.

I saw people with the drake from cata heroic achievements after only 2 or 3 weeks. Another kind of players who are probably complaining there's nothing else to do in the game because they did everything too fast. And all this for getting whispers about "omg wher u get dat awesom dragon" when no one had it.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

There's this guy on my server that brags and taunts about his DPS parse on a day to day basis. For hours. Weeks. Few months. His guild tolerates it.