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[TheYanger]

wut? I don't even know what to say, I don't see how you can go "well done LFR, cleared everything now"


H: Ragnaros: 6424 (9.57%)
H: Nefarian: 3560 (4.71%)
H: Cho'gall: 5336 (7.07%)
H: Sinestra: 2147 (2.84%)
H: Al'Akir: 3078 (4.08%)
H: The Lich King (25): 1101 (1.85%)
H: The Lich King (10): 5664 (6.71%)

nope
or at least highly unlikely

That's the worst logic I've ever seen. I will counter with this little bit of what you should consider: Every one of those fights listed received virtually no nerfs compared to the severity of the DS nerfs (Even the ICC nerf wasn't as bad, since the DS nerf actually reduces the damage the mobs do too). More importantly, you're overlooking one important fact...
All of those fights are vastly more difficult than anything in Dragon Soul. Spine was a challenging fight 8 months ago, but it has been nerfed twice as hard as every other fight, the only reason it's still challenging is getting your tank to kite. That's it. Rag was nerfed substantially enough (and is counting 10 AND 25 where 10 is a joke) to also have a high stat even though nobody goes back except for mounts. The rest people have little incentive to go back and do, and were basically never nerfed except through gear. If anything, I think your stats show that they should be encouraging people to continue to pursue old content because it's not being used, rather than invalidating it. Dragon Soul has high completion because it's easy, it's the last tier, and there's nothing 'above' it for a year. The older content isn't completed because you get immediately shuffled into the next zone - completion or not. The gear curve makes finishing any prior tier in the xpac completely pointless for the vast majority of raiders.

Prime example of that right here. My raid's been chipping away at heroic DS for the last few months, just getting Spine down the week the 30% nerf went out (and we probably couldn't have done it at 25%, as close as we're cutting getting the first tendon down in one pass). If everyone in the raid had a top notch computer, a perfectly reliable internet connection, and the time to gear up alts to switch out fight-by-fight, it probably wouldn't have taken quite so long. But we don't, so progression has been slow and steady and we'll probably drop Madness just before 5.0 hits, a position we would absolutely not be in without the nerfs.

Except you can't know that, you never will. The nerfs obviously make the fights easier, but it's insane to say that people would never beat a boss if they didn't get nerfed.
You're claiming you'd never get spine because you almost don't get the first tendon down in one pass?! That's a post-nerf feat, you couldn't have done that anyway before. We can't do that (well, probably CAN now, but certainly don't) on 25, on 10 it happens but that's not like the standard strat. What that tells me is your dps is MOOOORE than fine, by a lot, and you're simply still (gasp) learning the fight! The same roadblocks would be there before and your dps would still be plenty sufficient.

Re: Grimace (didn't bother to quote) People that can't make inroads into heroic without a 30% nerf probably would still be 'progressing' on normal if the nerfs don't exist, or would be progressing on heroics and be a couple bosses back, is that a bad thing? Is it really? Is it much better for 20% of ALL GUILDS to have nothing to fucking do for a large part of the year instead? that's an awful metric imo.

 

[Angry Grimace]

That's the worst logic I've ever seen. I will counter with this little bit of what you should consider: Every one of those fights listed received virtually no nerfs compared to the severity of the DS nerfs (Even the ICC nerf wasn't as bad, since the DS nerf actually reduces the damage the mobs do too). More importantly, you're overlooking one important fact...
All of those fights are vastly more difficult than anything in Dragon Soul. Spine was a challenging fight 8 months ago, but it has been nerfed twice as hard as every other fight, the only reason it's still challenging is getting your tank to kite. That's it. Rag was nerfed substantially enough (and is counting 10 AND 25 where 10 is a joke) to also have a high stat even though nobody goes back except for mounts. The rest people have little incentive to go back and do, and were basically never nerfed except through gear. If anything, I think your stats show that they should be encouraging people to continue to pursue old content because it's not being used, rather than invalidating it. Dragon Soul has high completion because it's easy, it's the last tier, and there's nothing 'above' it for a year. The older content isn't completed because you get immediately shuffled into the next zone - completion or not. The gear curve makes finishing any prior tier in the xpac completely pointless for the vast majority of raiders.



Except you can't know that, you never will. The nerfs obviously make the fights easier, but it's insane to say that people would never beat a boss if they didn't get nerfed.
You're claiming you'd never get spine because you almost don't get the first tendon down in one pass?! That's a post-nerf feat, you couldn't have done that anyway before. We can't do that (well, probably CAN now, but certainly don't) on 25, on 10 it happens but that's not like the standard strat. What that tells me is your dps is MOOOORE than fine, by a lot, and you're simply still (gasp) learning the fight! The same roadblocks would be there before and your dps would still be plenty sufficient.

Re: Grimace (didn't bother to quote) People that can't make inroads into heroic without a 30% nerf probably would still be 'progressing' on normal if the nerfs don't exist, or would be progressing on heroics and be a couple bosses back, is that a bad thing? Is it really? Is it much better for 20% of ALL GUILDS to have nothing to fucking do for a large part of the year instead? that's an awful metric imo.

I'm legitimately not understanding what your problem is - you can turn the nerf off, so why didn't you do it? Saying that you didn't have the self-control to turn the buff off on your first kill of the Madness/Spine encounters doesn't really make an argument for not nerfing the encounters. Moreover, it's a very petty complaint as it is.

I don't even know what the "20%" number you're talking about even is, or where you're getting it from. Besides, the argument *I think* you're making doesn't follow because the nerf didn't go from 0 to 30% in one day, either. There's a guy one post above you that made his way through the dungeon with the help of the scaling nerf.

 

[Formosa]

You have impeccable timing. $20 for WoW and all expansions at Gamestop and Best Buy.

Dude you the best! LOL

 

[Orochinagis]

Sadness, my guildmaster just ragequits the guild and leave the leadership empty, now everyone is leaving. =(

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sadness, my guildmaster just ragequits the guild and leave the leadership empty, now everyone is leaving. =(

Wouldn't the leadership pass to someone else if he quit?

 

[Orochinagis]

Wouldn't the leadership pass to someone else if he quit?

Yeah, he passed it to the person (a normal member before) who made him ragequit.

 

[Enosh]

Yeah, he passed it to the person (a normal member before) who made him ragequit.

I think I speak for most people here when I say
"tell the story!"

I always enjoy a good ragequit story

 

[aesop]

Re: Grimace (didn't bother to quote) People that can't make inroads into heroic without a 30% nerf probably would still be 'progressing' on normal if the nerfs don't exist, or would be progressing on heroics and be a couple bosses back, is that a bad thing? Is it really? Is it much better for 20% of ALL GUILDS to have nothing to fucking do for a large part of the year instead? that's an awful metric imo.

Would you rather bang your head against the same raid for 6 months trying to beat it? Is that what you're arguing for?

 

[eudaemonic]

Sadness, my guildmaster just ragequits the guild and leave the leadership empty, now everyone is leaving. =(

Yeah, keeping a watch on my guild as well seeing that our GM is currently away due to marital stuff. I'm not sure if they'll be back later either. Gonna talk to one of the other officers and find out if they left a plan in place. We have some good people. Not hard core but we all have fun together and we do raid once a week or so. We're actually pretty awesome about running old dungeons which I enjoy for transmog and random money making opportunities. Just don't wanna see it fall apart.

 

[TheYanger]

Would you rather bang your head against the same raid for 6 months trying to beat it? Is that what you're arguing for?

You say that as if you would NEVER beat the content for 6 months. In my experience that rarely happened - it might take say, a month to beat a boss you're having issues with, you're getting gear and experience, the fight WILL get easier over time. And if people who can't beat content after a year are banging their head, the content is clearly not for them - they can still do every fight in the zone on normal or LFR, but yes, I would argue that the people who REALLY want to do heroic modes and progress should be given the chance, rather than being forced through the zone into farming for a fucking year.

I was not in an amazing guild in BC in terms of progression, we spent 2 months on Vashj, weeks on bosses like Archimonde, Felmyst, etc. You still make progress, the notion that you can't make progress without a nerf is basically stating that people are incapable of learning and getting better at the game, let alone with gear. 2 months after the zone hits people are HEAVILY gearing up still, that is the biggest nerf the content can possibly see. Spine was barely overtuned, people in FL gear had to stack like mad to do it, but getting DS gear nerfed it plenty already. IT was probably still a bit overtuned, but that was an individual fight issue, not a 'zonewide nerf is needed' issue.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Agreed with both points.

The people who only do LFR and the people who can do Heroic Madness are not the same people.

I was simply using a numbers argument. If LFR is not an option, then it makes sense that perhaps more people would be doing normal and heroic versions, and in turn, more heroic clears by guilds. You can link stats to a bunch of different bosses pre-LFR and after, but they're still completely different encounters with different difficulty levels. So who knows?

I just don't have any desire to go into heroic DS, and a lot of that has to do with LFR. I guess I'm in the minority though. I can go for the top gear in the game, or I can settle for something a grade below that's a hundred times easier to get. I like raiding, but the time required to do well is not worth it when LFR lets you jump in and get something very similar, with no brain power required. I've always played wow for the loot, but now I dont' see the benefit of wasting my time and energy on heroic versions that are just repeated content, but more difficult with the lol-eazy-mode-alternative.

I have no problem with Blizzard wanting to let people see all the content. But I also think there is a difference between providing that content at a mind numbingly easy difficulty and actually requiring players to learn how to play the game and get better at it. That's what most games do... But every time the point gets argued, people start crying that "you just don't want casuals to be able to see end game content." No that's not it. I want people to actually learn how to play the game and get better at it. And it bothers me that people still think somehow players were excluded from end game content before. The only person who was excluded from end game content was the player who let himself be excluded. If a game is released with a certain difficulty level, then adapt and learn to play the game at that level. How is that a bad thing? It makes me laugh because people who get into wow should know what they're getting into, instead of freaking out that it's not Pokemon. Oh wait? This game is hard? Let me see if I can get one of the higher ups at Blizz to nerf it for me, because I didnt' know.

 

[TheYanger]

I was simply using a numbers argument. If LFR is not an option, then it makes sense that perhaps more people would be doing normal and heroic versions, and in turn, more heroic clears by guilds. You can link stats to a bunch of different bosses pre-LFR and after, but they're still completely different encounters with different difficulty levels. So who knows?

I just don't have any desire to go into heroic DS, and a lot of that has to do with LFR. I guess I'm in the minority though. I can go for the top gear in the game, or I can settle for something a grade below that's a hundred times easier to get. I like raiding, but the time required to do well is not worth it when LFR lets you jump in and get something very similar, with no brain power required. I've always played wow for the loot, but now I dont' see the benefit of wasting my time and energy on heroic versions that are just repeated content, but more difficult with the lol-eazy-mode-alternative.

I have no problem with Blizzard wanting to let people see all the content. But I also think there is a difference between providing that content at a mind numbingly easy difficulty and actually requiring players to learn how to play the game and get better at it. That's what most games do... But every time the point gets argued, people start crying that "you just don't want casuals to be able to see end game content." No that's not it. I want people to actually learn how to play the game and get better at it. And it bothers me that people still think somehow players were excluded from end game content before. The only person who was excluded from end game content was the player who let himself be excluded. If a game is released with a certain difficulty level, then adapt and learn to play the game at that level. How is that a bad thing? It makes me laugh because people who get into wow should know what they're getting into, instead of freaking out that it's not Pokemon. Oh wait? This game is hard? Let me see if I can get one of the higher ups at Blizz to nerf it for me, because I didnt' know.

I agree with this quite a bit. I also agree that making easier versions of a raid is good though, splitting normal and heroic was fine, I disagree about LFR and think that was fine. I don't agree that means that you split it into 3 difficulties and STILL keep nerfing the higher difficulties so that everyone can 'see' all the versions of a fight. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF MAKING 3 DIFFICULTIES THEN

 

[Einchy]

So the guilds who are struggling can kill the bosses that they are having issues with. Not everyone is in Vigil, man. Not everyone kills the final boss of the tier on Heroic in a couple of weeks.

[edit]

And it's not like people are going to say, "Oh well, we just can't kill Heroic Spine without the nerf, guys. Lets go do LFR and see the content!".

 

[Angry Grimace]

I agree with this quite a bit. I also agree that making easier versions of a raid is good though, splitting normal and heroic was fine, I disagree about LFR and think that was fine. I don't agree that means that you split it into 3 difficulties and STILL keep nerfing the higher difficulties so that everyone can 'see' all the versions of a fight. WHAT WAS THE POINT OF MAKING 3 DIFFICULTIES THEN

Turn the debuff off.

 

[aesop]

You say that as if you would NEVER beat the content for 6 months.

That's not what I'm saying. I was just responding to your implication that if it was harder, people wouldn't be out of stuff to do at this point in the expansion.

In my experience that rarely happened - it might take say, a month to beat a boss you're having issues with, you're getting gear and experience, the fight WILL get easier over time. And if people who can't beat content after a year are banging their head, the content is clearly not for them - they can still do every fight in the zone on normal or LFR, but yes, I would argue that the people who REALLY want to do heroic modes and progress should be given the chance, rather than being forced through the zone into farming for a fucking year.

Wait... what? Are you arguing for AND against nerfs in the same post?

I was not in an amazing guild in BC in terms of progression, we spent 2 months on Vashj, weeks on bosses like Archimonde, Felmyst, etc. You still make progress, the notion that you can't make progress without a nerf is basically stating that people are incapable of learning and getting better at the game, let alone with gear. 2 months after the zone hits people are HEAVILY gearing up still, that is the biggest nerf the content can possibly see. Spine was barely overtuned, people in FL gear had to stack like mad to do it, but getting DS gear nerfed it plenty already. IT was probably still a bit overtuned, but that was an individual fight issue, not a 'zonewide nerf is needed' issue.

Again, the nerfs are entirely optional. I don't see how you can rail against something that you can turn off. The nerfs don't make it a "press X to win" situation. People who fail at simple mechanics still fail at the encounters.

The nerfs came too fast. I can agree on that point. But it's hard to argue that WHEN YOU CAN TURN THEM OFF. Sorry for the caps, but the people who complain about it never seem to accept that fact. If your problem with it is "hey, I worked much harder to get here than you did," then I can kind of understand where you're coming from, but I think it's a silly argument. Why do you care how people play the game? If you did it the hard way, months before it was nerfed, why isn't that enough?

 

[Sciz]

Except you can't know that, you never will. The nerfs obviously make the fights easier, but it's insane to say that people would never beat a boss if they didn't get nerfed.

Could they succeed without a nerf, given infinite time? Probably. But even these interminable end-of-expansion raids are on a timer before they're irrelevant. We got hung up in normal Firelands for the better part of a month because a healer and a couple dps couldn't reliably dodge the tornadoes in Alysrazor no matter how much they tried. Managed it pre-nerf eventually, but it slowed us down enough that we sure as hell weren't knocking on heroic Rag's door before DS hit.

You're claiming you'd never get spine because you almost don't get the first tendon down in one pass?! That's a post-nerf feat, you couldn't have done that anyway before. We can't do that (well, probably CAN now, but certainly don't) on 25, on 10 it happens but that's not like the standard strat. What that tells me is your dps is MOOOORE than fine, by a lot, and you're simply still (gasp) learning the fight! The same roadblocks would be there before and your dps would still be plenty sufficient.

Well, yeah. We spent the entire 25% nerf period wiping to it trying everything else (for the one/one-and-a-half night a week we had to work on it, since Hagara and Blackhorn weren't on farm yet either). If we weren't dead in the lead up to the fifth pull, the sixth would end us every time. The one-pull tactic wasn't even a possibility until 30%. Could we have done it at 25% eventually, probably. But again, there isn't infinite time. Back in Wrath, we'd made it up to, but did not kill heroic LK before Cata released. This time around, we're on the edge of repeating that failure. But we wouldn't even be on that edge without the nerfs, which helped us drop prior bosses in prior months, which in turn sped up gear acquisition.

The end result of all this is that we're ranked 5th on our backwater server that saw its first heroic 8/8 on April 16th, and there are plenty of active guilds behind us at various stages of progression. Nerfs help people keep moving on.

 

[ampere]

You have impeccable timing. $20 for WoW and all expansions at Gamestop and Best Buy.

Damn that's a great deal. Going to try to get a buddy of mine to jump on it

 

[zethren]

Damn that's a great deal. Going to try to get a buddy of mine to jump on it

And jump on it he shall.

Spoiler

The buddy.

 

[Magnus]

So, we Gaffers can build a raid cross-server for anything pre-DS, right?

Do any of you guys want to do a regular thing where we go for the Ashes/Kael? I want a shot at that thing so fucking badly, but can't really effectively solo the bitch on my main (a priest). I can't solo it at all, actually, lol.

 

[Tarazet]

My brother used to raid hardcore in classic WoW and TBC.

He quit not long before WOTLK hit because he didn't feel "casual" players should get purple items.

I'm not even 85 yet, been playing for less than a month total, and I have a 379 purple piece that I got off the AH for 200 gold. Even without LFR, people can still craft the stuff..

 

[eudaemonic]

So, we Gaffers can build a raid cross-server for anything pre-DS, right?

Do any of you guys want to do a regular thing where we go for the Ashes/Kael? I want a shot at that thing so fucking badly, but can't really effectively solo the bitch on my main (a priest). I can't solo it at all, actually, lol.

*lmao* I just read your post on the Suramar forums!


(Unless that wasn't you but it's almost the exact wording...)

 

[Angry Grimace]

So, we Gaffers can build a raid cross-server for anything pre-DS, right?

Do any of you guys want to do a regular thing where we go for the Ashes/Kael? I want a shot at that thing so fucking badly, but can't really effectively solo the bitch on my main (a priest). I can't solo it at all, actually, lol.

Priests can do it in Disc, I believe. At any rate, they certainly will be able to by MOP.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Neither the debuff option nor the challenge modes excite me much. It still comes down to what's the point? Before, working really hard resulted in unique gear. Now it will just result in visually identical gear, but with better stats and only the self satisfaction of knowing I completed content on a harder difficulty or a quicker time. I guess I'm just discovering that I really do like to stand out in the game, which makes me a snowflake lol. What's weird is that I have really been enjoying LFR. I don't hate LFR, but I do wish there was some distinction in gear instead of just i-level. If WoW is a loot based game, harder content should reward players in unique gear. People can still see all the content they want, but at least give me a visual reason for putting forth the effort. If the argument is really that people should be able to see all the content, then it shouldn't matter if harder content gives unique gear unavailable in LFR. If unique gear is considered content, then i want free legendaries, because I've never had one and probably never will.

So, we Gaffers can build a raid cross-server for anything pre-DS, right?

Do any of you guys want to do a regular thing where we go for the Ashes/Kael? I want a shot at that thing so fucking badly, but can't really effectively solo the bitch on my main (a priest). I can't solo it at all, actually, lol.

I still want to finish up my ulduar achievements for 25m. I want the Ironbound pretty badly. Only need the last boss and the medium rare cheeve to finish. Still need to register with openraid.org

 

[Rokam]

Neither the debuff option nor the challenge modes excite me much. It still comes down to what's the point? Before, working really hard resulted in unique gear. Now it will just result in visually identical gear, but with better stats and only the self satisfaction of knowing I completed content on a harder difficulty or a quicker time. I guess I'm just discovering that I really do like to stand out in the game, which makes me a snowflake lol. What's weird is that I have really been enjoying LFR. I don't hate LFR, but I do wish there was some distinction in gear instead of just i-level. If WoW is a loot based game, harder content should reward players in unique gear. People can still see all the content they want, but at least give me a visual reason for putting forth the effort. If the argument is really that people should be able to see all the content, then it shouldn't matter if harder content gives unique gear unavailable in LFR. If unique gear is considered content, then i want free legendaries, because I've never had one and probably never will.

Does not compute. Challenge mode gives unique gear.

 

[TheYanger]

Turn the debuff off.

We do, regularly, but if you mean during progression, you know as well as I do that won't happen for me or anyone else. Just like Blizzard does despite citing it as why they don't care about doing concerns. The simple fact is, this is COMPETETIVE raiding. It's easy to dismiss anyone not in the top 20 or so as non-competetive, but everyone is competing with someone, even if it's just 'that guild' taht is in front of them on their server, maybe server first and you're still only US 300 cause your server is bad, whatever.

Hell, in Dragon Soul we were in the top 20 US spine kills, and Madness was still nerfed before we could pull it. TOP FUCKING TWENTY. that's competetive by basically any definition besides world ranking. Telling people to turn off the buff is asinine, I could just as easily tell people who need the buff to suck less - it's an insulting argument to make.

Could they succeed without a nerf, given infinite time? Probably. But even these interminable end-of-expansion raids are on a timer before they're irrelevant. We got hung up in normal Firelands for the better part of a month because a healer and a couple dps couldn't reliably dodge the tornadoes in Alysrazor no matter how much they tried. Managed it pre-nerf eventually, but it slowed us down enough that we sure as hell weren't knocking on heroic Rag's door before DS hit.


Well, yeah. We spent the entire 25% nerf period wiping to it trying everything else (for the one/one-and-a-half night a week we had to work on it, since Hagara and Blackhorn weren't on farm yet either). If we weren't dead in the lead up to the fifth pull, the sixth would end us every time. The one-pull tactic wasn't even a possibility until 30%. Could we have done it at 25% eventually, probably. But again, there isn't infinite time. Back in Wrath, we'd made it up to, but did not kill heroic LK before Cata released. This time around, we're on the edge of repeating that failure. But we wouldn't even be on that edge without the nerfs, which helped us drop prior bosses in prior months, which in turn sped up gear acquisition.

The end result of all this is that we're ranked 5th on our backwater server that saw its first heroic 8/8 on April 16th, and there are plenty of active guilds behind us at various stages of progression. Nerfs help people keep moving on.

OBVIOUSLY nerfs help move people along, it would be a sad state if they didn't, but you know what else helps people move along? Just pulling the boss more. You say you raid 1-1.5 nights a week, and that you wiped to spine for the agonizingly long 25% buff. So in other words, you spent FOUR NIGHTS on Spine. That's absolutely nothing. I'm sorry, but if we're catering heroic mode raids - the raid difficulty designed for people who are interested in challenging content (By definition heroic mode raiding is supposed to be a challenge) to guilds that basically raid for a couple hours total per reset...something is wrong as fuck. Guilds like yours are the reason lockout extensions were invented - your time farming is probably almost as long as your time progressing per week, you could double your exposure to the boss simply by extending lockout. I'm not trying to insult your guild because people are at all levels of skill and progression in this game, obviously, but you've seriously spent so little time on the boss that you're insulting yourself to say you would be unable to kill it without the nerf. People improve as they iterate on things, in all aspects of life, raiding is no different. Pull the boss more, it will die. Just as the first time you pulled it you probably wiped on like the first tendon or something, just like we felt STOKED the first time we knocked a plate off, you work on phase 1 until it's beaten, then you work on phase 2 until it's beaten, then phase 3, you always make progress.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

Does not compute. Challenge mode gives unique gear.

I stand corrected. Whoops.

 

[Acidote]

Challenge mode looks like a gimmick to make heroic instances incredibly easy again like wotlk heroic instances were and be able to say "hey, you have the challenge mode there!"

 

[TheYanger]

Challenge mode looks like a gimmick to make heroic instances incredibly easy again like wotlk heroic instances were and be able to say "hey, you have the challenge mode there!"

This isn't news though. There aren't non-heroic versions of the max level dungeons. Challenge mode IS the new heroic. I think this is the right choice, the progression path in Wrath and Cata simply didn't include non-heroic dungeons anyway, and now there's LFR on top of it for casual players. I like my 5 mans challenging (but also fun to plow them with better gear: the heroics will serve that purpose still), so challenge modes seem great to me. I rushed through the Cata heroics at launch and was in one of the first 2 groups on mal'ganis to finish our dungeon meta achievements and I loved it, I look forward to trying to rush challenge modes just as much.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

We do, regularly, but if you mean during progression, you know as well as I do that won't happen for me or anyone else. Just like Blizzard does despite citing it as why they don't care about doing concerns. The simple fact is, this is COMPETETIVE raiding. It's easy to dismiss anyone not in the top 20 or so as non-competetive, but everyone is competing with someone, even if it's just 'that guild' taht is in front of them on their server, maybe server first and you're still only US 300 cause your server is bad, whatever.

Hell, in Dragon Soul we were in the top 20 US spine kills, and Madness was still nerfed before we could pull it. TOP FUCKING TWENTY. that's competetive by basically any definition besides world ranking. Telling people to turn off the buff is asinine, I could just as easily tell people who need the buff to suck less - it's an insulting argument to make.


OBVIOUSLY nerfs help move people along, it would be a sad state if they didn't, but you know what else helps people move along? Just pulling the boss more. You say you raid 1-1.5 nights a week, and that you wiped to spine for the agonizingly long 25% buff. So in other words, you spent FOUR NIGHTS on Spine. That's absolutely nothing. I'm sorry, but if we're catering heroic mode raids - the raid difficulty designed for people who are interested in challenging content (By definition heroic mode raiding is supposed to be a challenge) to guilds that basically raid for a couple hours total per reset...something is wrong as fuck. Guilds like yours are the reason lockout extensions were invented - your time farming is probably almost as long as your time progressing per week, you could double your exposure to the boss simply by extending lockout. I'm not trying to insult your guild because people are at all levels of skill and progression in this game, obviously, but you've seriously spent so little time on the boss that you're insulting yourself to say you would be unable to kill it without the nerf. People improve as they iterate on things, in all aspects of life, raiding is no different. Pull the boss more, it will die. Just as the first time you pulled it you probably wiped on like the first tendon or something, just like we felt STOKED the first time we knocked a plate off, you work on phase 1 until it's beaten, then you work on phase 2 until it's beaten, then phase 3, you always make progress.

If you're in the top 20 and can't pull it, then the people below you can't pull it either.

You're currently in the top 24 of US 25 mans right? Including 10 mans, that's ~1,000 people including a few extras. They are never going to cater to you. Get over it.

The nerfs were for the millions of other people.

They aren't going to wait for you 1,000 to clear heroic before nerfing while the other millions are having problems with brick walls or whatever.

They don't make money catering to the top 1,000, 5,000, 10,000. You guys might make money since you have to spend so much time playing it, hopefully, but yeah. I can understand why the top guilds want the ideal WoW experiences for themselves since so much time is dedicated to it, but that's the risk of dedicating time to something that has 90%?98%? of the user base more vocal than you.

 

[Sciz]

OBVIOUSLY nerfs help move people along, it would be a sad state if they didn't, but you know what else helps people move along? Just pulling the boss more. You say you raid 1-1.5 nights a week, and that you wiped to spine for the agonizingly long 25% buff. So in other words, you spent FOUR NIGHTS on Spine. That's absolutely nothing. I'm sorry, but if we're catering heroic mode raids - the raid difficulty designed for people who are interested in challenging content (By definition heroic mode raiding is supposed to be a challenge) to guilds that basically raid for a couple hours total per reset...something is wrong as fuck. Guilds like yours are the reason lockout extensions were invented - your time farming is probably almost as long as your time progressing per week, you could double your exposure to the boss simply by extending lockout. I'm not trying to insult your guild because people are at all levels of skill and progression in this game, obviously, but you've seriously spent so little time on the boss that you're insulting yourself to say you would be unable to kill it without the nerf. People improve as they iterate on things, in all aspects of life, raiding is no different. Pull the boss more, it will die. Just as the first time you pulled it you probably wiped on like the first tendon or something, just like we felt STOKED the first time we knocked a plate off, you work on phase 1 until it's beaten, then you work on phase 2 until it's beaten, then phase 3, you always make progress.

Three nights a week at 3h/night, wasn't clear about that. We did talk about extending the lockout at one point but no one wanted to give up six bosses' worth of gear drops, particularly since we've had godawful luck with getting anything but Vanq tokens for our two druids to drop. Spine progression would've been... the period between June 11th and July 27th, with at least one full night of pulls a week and varying amounts of a second or third depending on how long it took Blackhorn to die, so let's call it around ten nights/30 hrs. Probably still not a lot of time by the standards of top end guilds, but we were tired of the damn thing.

This isn't news though. There aren't non-heroic versions of the max level dungeons. Challenge mode IS the new heroic. I think this is the right choice, the progression path in Wrath and Cata simply didn't include non-heroic dungeons anyway, and now there's LFR on top of it for casual players. I like my 5 mans challenging (but also fun to plow them with better gear: the heroics will serve that purpose still), so challenge modes seem great to me. I rushed through the Cata heroics at launch and was in one of the first 2 groups on mal'ganis to finish our dungeon meta achievements and I loved it, I look forward to trying to rush challenge modes just as much.

This we can agree on. Can't wait to sink my teeth into them, and it'll be nice to be able to run "heroic" 5-mans without having to form a guild group for it again too.

 

[strafer]

 

[TheYanger]

If you're in the top 20 and can't pull it, then the people below you can't pull it either.

You're currently in the top 24 of US 25 mans right? Including 10 mans, that's ~1,000 people including a few extras. They are never going to cater to you. Get over it.

The nerfs were for the millions of other people.

They aren't going to wait for you 1,000 to clear heroic before nerfing while the other millions are having problems with brick walls or whatever.

They don't make money catering to the top 1,000, 5,000, 10,000. You guys might make money since you have to spend so much time playing it, hopefully, but yeah. I can understand why the top guilds want the ideal WoW experiences for themselves since so much time is dedicated to it, but that's the risk of dedicating time to something that has 90%?98%? of the user base more vocal than you.

What you said made absolutely no sense. You're right, nobody below me got the opportunity to prove they could do the content prior to it being nerfed either. My point was that we were killing things at a GREAT pace, and still they nerfed it before we were there essentially. How can anyone possibly claim that in 6 weeks of raiding they've absolutely plateaued skillwise and are going to be unable to continue without a nerf? are you shitting me? I really don't think your post makes any sense at all tbh. The amount of people who literally would never be able to kill another boss after only 6 weeks of heroics being out, is probably smaller than the number of people who would finish the zone given enough time even with no nerfs. They're already catering to everyone who has no desire to try, it's called LFR. Heroic mode raiding is supposed to be challenging, people who don't want a challenge aren't supposed to be there. I don't think it's too much to ask that at bare minimum they leave it challenging for long enough for a few hundred guilds in the US to complete the content - there are absolutely that many capable of it, at least.

Nerfing it so quickly and dismissing it as 'oh your progression doesn't matter, the race was only the top 5 guilds anyway' (which is basically the argument Blizz uses to dismiss the issue) is frankly insulting to everyone else, almost nobody 'needs' the nerfs, they just need time to progress. If you don't even have an opportunity to do that it's pretty fucking stupid.

 

[Angry Grimace]

We do, regularly, but if you mean during progression, you know as well as I do that won't happen for me or anyone else. Just like Blizzard does despite citing it as why they don't care about doing concerns. The simple fact is, this is COMPETETIVE raiding. It's easy to dismiss anyone not in the top 20 or so as non-competetive, but everyone is competing with someone, even if it's just 'that guild' taht is in front of them on their server, maybe server first and you're still only US 300 cause your server is bad, whatever.

Complaining about the fact that you have to fight Spine with the buff once to win your "race" before going back to not using the buff is an incredibly petty complaint.

 

[TheYanger]

Complaining about the fact that you have to fight Spine with the buff once to win your "race" before going back to not using the buff is an incredibly petty complaint.

I didn't, I killed spine before it got nerfed, But I don't see how that's a petty complaint. EVERY PROGRESSION RAIDING GROUP is in competition with someone. It is completely unrealistic to expect the buff that you have to voluntarily decline, to be declined when that is the case, period.

Why don't you start telling football teams to prove they're better by bringing in a bunch of 120 pound high schoolers while everyone else keeps their rosters? Hey, every basketball team that isn't in serious contention for the championships? their rankings don't matter at all, fuck em, they can wear rocket boots while they play because they need the help.

Again, you know as well as I do that NOBODY is going to raid without the buff, this may be a news flash to you, but even if some people in guilds want to, it DOES negatively affect your guild to be ranked worse, and that ensures it will never happen.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I didn't, I killed spine before it got nerfed, But I don't see how that's a petty complaint. EVERY PROGRESSION RAIDING GROUP is in competition with someone. It is completely unrealistic to expect the buff that you have to voluntarily decline, to be declined when that is the case, period.

Why don't you start telling football teams to prove they're better by bringing in a bunch of 120 pound high schoolers while everyone else keeps their rosters? Hey, every basketball team that isn't in serious contention for the championships? their rankings don't matter at all, fuck em, they can wear rocket boots while they play because they need the help.

Again, you know as well as I do that NOBODY is going to raid without the buff, this may be a news flash to you, but even if some people in guilds want to, it DOES negatively affect your guild to be ranked worse, and that ensures it will never happen.

Because there's always someone behind you who thinks the same thing; your cut off point is completely arbitrary because it revolves around you personally. If your argument had merit, literally any point at which they implement a nerf is arbitrary because there will always be some guild that's right behind you that's bent that Blizzard doesn't cater to their exact skill level.

Your analogy to football teams is nonsensical and has nothing to do with anything. We're not talking about football teams, we're talking about a meaningless video game race which has to take into account the other nine million players. It's a petty complaint because you're literally suggesting Blizzard let everyone else continue to do worse and get frustrated just to make you personally feel better about your race (which, unlike football games, is entirely meaningless; your guild doesn't have fans and there isn't anything riding on it.) It's petty.

 

[TheYanger]

Because there's always someone behind you who thinks the same thing. Your cut off point is completely arbitrary because it revolves around you personally.

There is no 'cut off' point. I didn't say 'wait until I finish it THEN nerf it' I said 'don't fucking nerf it, hard content is there for people who want hard content'... Any point at which you do so is as arbitrary as any other. The argument that content isn't made for heroic raiders is arbitrary too (99% of the game caters to everyone who drools onto their buttons and manages to do 15,000 dps. It's insulting to me that you people insinuate that the aspect of the game DESIGNED to be hard, is not allowed to be hard anymore because those people need 100% of the game to be designed for them).

I've been in all levels of guild, every guild that puts in the tiniest modicum of effort will make progress, only the rate at which they do so is going to be different.

Seriously, I'm BOGGLED by how selfish the shit players of the world are. Hardcore raiders don't want the game to be impossibly hard (they'd enjoy it, but they don't care that it's not). All of the game, ALL OF IT, besides heroic raiding, is as accessible as you can possibly make it wtihout literally just handing gear to people for logging on. This game is easy as piss. The one aspect of the game that is supposed to be a challenge and is designed as such does not need to be dumbed down as well. What compelling argument do you have for it to be done? I'd love to hear that. Completion rates mean nothing, because it's the THIRD DIFFICULTY of the same content, everyone that wanted to kill deathwing has done so. Everyone that wanted to kill deathwing on normal mode has done so or had every opportunity to do so. The only people that need to worry about heroic are the people that WANT to worry about heroic.

 

[Angry Grimace]

There is no 'cut off' point. I didn't say 'wait until I finish it THEN nerf it' I said 'don't fucking nerf it, hard content is there for people who want hard content'... Any point at which you do so is as arbitrary as any other. The argument that content isn't made for heroic raiders is arbitrary too (99% of the game caters to everyone who drools onto their buttons and manages to do 15,000 dps. It's insulting to me that you people insinuate that the aspect of the game DESIGNED to be hard, is not allowed to be hard anymore because those people need 100% of the game to be designed for them).

I've been in all levels of guild, every guild that puts in the tiniest modicum of effort will make progress, only the rate at which they do so is going to be different.

Seriously, I'm BOGGLED by how selfish the shit players of the world are. Hardcore raiders don't want the game to be impossibly hard (they'd enjoy it, but they don't care that it's not). All of the game, ALL OF IT, besides heroic raiding, is as accessible as you can possibly make it wtihout literally just handing gear to people for logging on. This game is easy as piss. The one aspect of the game that is supposed to be a challenge and is designed as such does not need to be dumbed down as well. What compelling argument do you have for it to be done? I'd love to hear that. Completion rates mean nothing, because it's the THIRD DIFFICULTY of the same content, everyone that wanted to kill deathwing has done so. Everyone that wanted to kill deathwing on normal mode has done so or had every opportunity to do so. The only people that need to worry about heroic are the people that WANT to worry about heroic.

That isn't any different, you're saying fuck all the other players because you like it. Blizzard doesn't exist to satisfy you, even if you schedule 15 hours a week to play their game.

And now we get to the heart of the matter. It's the "shit players" that bother you. Stop being such an entitled baby, seriously. Just turn the buff off, get your non-buff achievement that they implemented just for you, and stop complaining about what the other players are doing.

 

[TheYanger]

That isn't any different, you're saying fuck all the other players because you like it. Blizzard doesn't exist to satisfy you, even if you schedule 15 hours a week to play their game.

And now we get to the heart of the matter. It's the "shit players" that bother you. Stop being such an entitled baby, seriously. Just turn the buff off, get your non-buff achievement that they implemented just for you, and stop complaining about what the other players are doing.

Your argument is circular as fuck, I could literally just repost what you posted and it would be just as damning to what you're saying.
Blizz doesn't exist to piss their hardcore gamers off either, do they?
Shit players don't bother me at all. Everyone has their skill level. The entitled ass players who assume that they killed the boss on LFR, then normal, and now feel they 'deserve' to kill it on heroic without any effort, they bother me.
The notion that a buff is necessary on heroic mode bothers me, leave that shit on normal mode.

You have no answer to my argument, because one doesn't exist: Why does EVERYONE need to complete heroic content? 100% completion is obviously not the goal, because that's absolutely NEVER going to happen, so what % do you think we should be at, hmm? 50%? How long should it take to get there? Put the buff up to 75 instead of 30, let's see if we get 50% completion even. What's the point of this shit? I'd love to know why everyone 'deserves' to finish all of the content. Why not start putting this buff in arenas, so that 1500 ranked players can have a +80% buff against 3000 ranked players, they deserve gladiator as well.

There is no possible argument you can make so you attack my character instead.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Your argument is circular as fuck, I could literally just repost what you posted and it would be just as damning to what you're saying.
Blizz doesn't exist to piss their hardcore gamers off either, do they?
Shit players don't bother me at all. Everyone has their skill level. The entitled ass players who assume that they killed the boss on LFR, then normal, and now feel they 'deserve' to kill it on heroic without any effort, they bother me.
The notion that a buff is necessary on heroic mode bothers me, leave that shit on normal mode.

You have no answer to my argument, because one doesn't exist: Why does EVERYONE need to complete heroic content? 100% completion is obviously not the goal, because that's absolutely NEVER going to happen, so what % do you think we should be at, hmm? 50%? How long should it take to get there? Put the buff up to 75 instead of 30, let's see if we get 50% completion even. What's the point of this shit? I'd love to know why everyone 'deserves' to finish all of the content. Why not start putting this buff in arenas, so that 1500 ranked players can have a +80% buff against 3000 ranked players, they deserve gladiator as well.

There is no possible argument you can make so you attack my character instead.

What's this about your "character?" Dude, what are you talking about? You're complaining that the game should literally be made to your specification and screw all the other players who don't do the content in the way you do it. The biggest problem here is that the buff CAN BE TURNED OFF AND YOU GET AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR DOING SO. Your ultimate complaint is literally the single week in which you have to play with the buff to win a "race," but for some reason this isn't good enough. The only plausible explanation for why this isn't good enough is if you literally derive satisfaction from other people not being able to play the game at all since those players can't obtain that achievement.

Besides, it's pretty ludicrous to complain my argument doesn't make sense - Blizzard agrees with me and not you since their reasons for putting these in the game are exactly the same as what I'm telling you.

 

[Anoregon]

You have no answer to my argument, because one doesn't exist: Why does EVERYONE need to complete heroic content? 100% completion is obviously not the goal, because that's absolutely NEVER going to happen, so what % do you think we should be at, hmm? 50%? How long should it take to get there? Put the buff up to 75 instead of 30, let's see if we get 50% completion even. What's the point of this shit? I'd love to know why everyone 'deserves' to finish all of the content. Why not start putting this buff in arenas, so that 1500 ranked players can have a +80% buff against 3000 ranked players, they deserve gladiator as well.

There is no possible argument you can make so you attack my character instead.

You seem to be coming from a perspective of there being absolutely no middle ground between RAWR HARDCORE SUPER RAIDERS and no-talent scrubs. I'm sure you'll deny it up and down, but the actual content of your posts screams it. The increasing buffs over time don't exist to allow shitty scrubs to kill heroics. The amount of people who killed Heroic LK and DW is still a very small percentage of the player base. It just serves to ramp up the accessibility over time, and it's absurd that you take issue with that just because you frame it in the absolutely most negative light you can.

My experience in WoW has run the gamut. I've been in server-first progression guilds, more relaxed middle of the pack raiding guilds, and guilds that can barely field a handful of people who know how to play their character. The Icecrown and DS style raid buffs primarily benefit the second group, people who are good enough at the game to clear a normal instance and some of the heroics without the buff, but struggle a bit on the harder encounters. I don't see anything wrong with letting those people progress at a much slower rate than the more hardcore raiders due to the buff schedule. It absolutely shouldn't diminish the enjoyment of anyone else.

 

[TheYanger]

What's this about your "character?" Dude, what are you talking about? You're complaining that the game should literally be made to your specification and screw all the other players who don't do the content in the way you do it. The biggest problem here is that the buff CAN BE TURNED OFF AND YOU GET AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR DOING SO. Your ultimate complaint is literally the single week in which you have to play with the buff to win a "race," but for some reason this isn't good enough

Besides, it's pretty ludicrous to complain my argument doesn't make sense - Blizzard agrees with me and not you since their reasons for putting these in the game are exactly the same as what I'm telling you.

You haven't made an argument! Let's cut this back and distill it to it's essence:

There are three difficulties of content available. I would love to hear the reason that the 'hard' mode, which offers absolutely nothing "see the content"-wise that is new compared to either of the other two modes, should be made easy instead of letting it be hard for those who want it to be.

Explain that to me, nothing else.

You seem to be coming from a perspective of their being absolutely no middle ground between RAWR HARDCORE SUPER RAIDERS and no-talent scrubs. I'm sure you'll deny it up and down, but the actual content of your posts screams it. The increasing buffs over time don't exist to allow shitty scrubs to kill heroics. The amount of people who killed Heroic LK and DW is still a very small percentage of the player base. It just serves to ramp up the accessibility over time, and it's absurd that you take issue with that just because you frame it in the absolutely most negative light you can.

My experience in WoW has run the gamut. I've been in server-first progression guilds, more relaxed middle of the pack raiding guilds, and guilds that can barely field a handful of people who know how to play their character. The Icecrown and DS style raid buffs primarily benefit the second group, people who are good enough at the game to clear a normal instance and some of the heroics without the buff, but struggle a bit on the harder encounters. I don't see anything wrong with letting those people progress at a much slower rate than the more hardcore raiders due to the buff schedule. It absolutely shouldn't diminish the enjoyment of anyone else.

Except that I was in those guilds, I LED those guilds. Those guilds will still progress, at a slower rate, you're absolutely right. They don't need the buff to progress, to say they need the buff is simply to say they aren't good enough at the game to continue to improve their abilities without it. That is insulting to every one of those players. I know for a fact people will keep getting better regardless of the buff, I've seen it firsthand, presumably so have you.

The logic that the buff is necessary says you would wipe to a boss once and prove you're incapable of killing it. The fact that you can pull a boss 50 times and improve, gradually and on average, over those 50 attempts, tells me that the buff being necessary is a fallacy. Either way, the amount of people that kill Heroic LK and Heroic DW has no bearing on anything. There is a much smaller percentage of people who have achieved ranked gladiator, should that be made the top 100% of arena players too? or the top 50%?

I bet there are less people who have Insane in the Membrane. Should that be removed? I wonder what percentage of the playerbase knows their way around Blackrock Depths? we should delete that zone.

Unlike all of those other things that most people don't bother to do, raiding has three tiers of difficulty SPECIFICALLY to make it accessible already. The only reason anyone doesn't see that content is because they absolutely don't want to. I don't demand that they make Ragefire Chasm impossibly hard, so why should someone demand that they make the "hard" mode content easy?

 

[Angry Grimace]

You haven't made an argument! Let's cut this back and distill it to it's essence:

There are three difficulties of content available. I would love to hear the reason that the 'hard' mode, which offers absolutely nothing "see the content"-wise that is new compared to either of the other two modes, should be made easy instead of letting it be hard for those who want it to be.

Explain that to me, nothing else.

Subscribers and because other players derive satisfaction from progressing through content. "See the content" and "progression" are different arguments that you're conflating. Why isn't the achievement for doing heroic mode without the buff good enough again?

Also, this isn't the Fires of Heaven message board, stop swearing at everyone over Warcraft, it's legitimately getting annoying to read.

 

[Anoregon]

I bet there are less people who have Insane in the Membrane. Should that be removed? I wonder what percentage of the playerbase knows their way around Blackrock Depths? we should delete that zone.

Aside from the fact that I never implied the buff was necessary, only helpful to guilds that are progressing slowly, I'm just absolutely confused by what you are even trying to convey with the above quote. I have no idea how the idea supports or is related to any argument anyone in this thread is trying to make, because no one is talking about removing anything, other than you wanting the buff removed from heroics.

 

[TheYanger]

Subscribers and because other players derive satisfaction from progressing through content.

Also, this isn't the Fires of Heaven message board, stop swearing at everyone over Warcraft, it's legitimately getting annoying to read.

I'd love to see evidence that people would unsubscribe or stop progressing if the buff didn't exist. Last I checked subs were higher when they didn't exist. I wonder how many people unsub when there is no progression to do because they're 'done' with what they want to do? By your logic nobody would unsubscribe until they were done with heroic modes, we both know that's not the case, so why is it people unsub? Could it be boredom? Could it be many players, no matter how easy you make things, simply aren't interested in doing them? a 20% completion on WoWProgress means any guild that has ever registered a kill on Morchok normal mode is part of that 100%. I know guilds with Morchok completion that have never had any intention of even completing normal mode, we probably all do. Heck, you can pug the first few bosses on any server in existence, just like you could wtih the first wing of ICC, probably 50% of the guilds that have killed Morchok normal literally have no hope or intention of trying heroic modes at all, let alone trying to finish the zone. 20% of that number is massive.

If you don't like how I speak, put me on ignore.

Aside from the fact that I never implied the buff was necessary, only helpful to guilds that are progressing slowly, I'm just absolutely confused by what you are even trying to convey with the above quote. I have no idea how the idea supports or is related to any argument anyone in this thread is trying to make, because no one is talking about removing anything, other than you wanting the buff removed from heroics.

You claim I don't get it because the buff isn't meant for me, I'm saying I've been there, the guilds that it is 'meant' for, and they don't need it either. If nobody needs it, why is it in the game?
The idea is that people like to spit out 'only 1% of the population has done this hard mode' and other nonsense statistics. Only 1% of anyone have done LOTS OF THINGS in the game, my point is that it's not unique to raiding and it is a ridiculous notion that raiding should be a 100% completion metric while nothing else in the game is held to that standard. Hell, half of the players of the game don't even hit max level, why are completion rates of the third tier difficulty for this aspect of the game such a unique thing? That's the only thing the buff serves to accomplish, to push that number higher. People will still progress as long as there is something for them to do in front of them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'd love to see evidence that people would unsubscribe or stop progressing if the buff didn't exist. Last I checked subs were higher when they didn't exist. I wonder how many people unsub when there is no progression to do because they're 'done' with what they want to do? By your logic nobody would unsubscribe until they were done with heroic modes, we both know that's not the case, so why is it people unsub? Could it be boredom? Could it be many players, no matter how easy you make things, simply aren't interested in doing them? a 20% completion on WoWProgress means any guild that has ever registered a kill on Morchok normal mode is part of that 100%. I know guilds with Morchok completion that have never had any intention of even completing normal mode, we probably all do. Heck, you can pug the first few bosses on any server in existence, just like you could wtih the first wing of ICC, probably 50% of the guilds that have killed Morchok normal literally have no hope or intention of trying heroic modes at all, let alone trying to finish the zone. 20% of that number is massive.

If you don't like how I speak, put me on ignore.

If you can't follow the basic rules of civility, that's fine. There's nothing illegal about it, I'm just letting you know you look pathetic swearing at everyone over World of Warcraft.

Subs are down from Wrath because it's a 7 year old game. You're asking for "evidence" which a) wouldn't support your argument and b) you already know cannot by definition exist.

Unless you can explain to me why giving an achievement for completing the dungeon without the nerf is insufficient, it's seems readily apparent you don't even really understand what you're trying to say other than being generally upset. That achievement literally gives you what you are asking for, but you still are angry.

 

[SillyEskimo]

Subscribers and because other players derive satisfaction from progressing through content. "See the content" and "progression" are different arguments that you're conflating. Why isn't the achievement for doing heroic mode without the buff good enough again?

Also, this isn't the Fires of Heaven message board, stop swearing at everyone over Warcraft, it's legitimately getting annoying to read.

Fires of Heaven? Jesus, that takes me back, lol!

 

[TheYanger]

If you can't follow the basic rules of civility, that's fine. There's nothing illegal about it, I'm just letting you know you look pathetic swearing at everyone over World of Warcraft.

Subs are down from Wrath because it's a 7 year old game. You're asking for "evidence" which a) wouldn't support your argument and b) you already know cannot by definition exist.

Unless you can explain to me why giving an achievement for completing the dungeon without the nerf is insufficient, it's seems readily apparent you don't even really understand what you're trying to say other than being generally upset. That achievement literally gives you what you are asking for, but you still are angry.

The achievements are fine, they're better than not being there, but why should it be limited to an achievement? Shouldn't the achievement be beating it? I mean, those should be one in the same, because the buff shouldn't exist. The buff still removes the short term progression aspect, if the buff comes out prior to completion of a tier, it still harms the integrity of the difficulty mode while you are working on it, because you're not going to get the achievement until you've beaten the zone and THEN turn the buff off next time.

You're absolutely right that I'm asking for evidence that I know cannot exist: because you're purporting as fact something that isn't one. If the buff didn't exist, people wouldn't suddenly stop subscribing, I could just as easily argue more people being on farm mode results in more lost subs, and in reality it's probably somewhere in the middle - people will unsub either way, because there are ALWAYS people who can find something better to do. Those that want to do heroic content and progress, IE: the people heroic content is made for, are those that enjoy...well, progressing! If you pull a boss, you are progressing, pushing people through it with a buff turns it into farming, very few people enjoy farming. Anyone that doesn't enjoy progression should probably not participate in progression raiding. Just like I don't enjoy arenas so I don't participate in them. I can always do some arenas and see the content, just like someone who doesn't want to raid can join LFR and see the fights.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The achievements are fine, they're better than not being there, but why should it be limited to an achievement? Shouldn't the achievement be beating it? I mean, those should be one in the same, because the buff shouldn't exist. The buff still removes the short term progression aspect, if the buff comes out prior to completion of a tier, it still harms the integrity of the difficulty mode while you are working on it, because you're not going to get the achievement until you've beaten the zone and THEN turn the buff off next time.

You're absolutely right that I'm asking for evidence that I know cannot exist: because you're purporting as fact something that isn't one. If the buff didn't exist, people wouldn't suddenly stop subscribing, I could just as easily argue more people being on farm mode results in more lost subs, and in reality it's probably somewhere in the middle - people will unsub either way, because there are ALWAYS people who can find something better to do. Those that want to do heroic content and progress, IE: the people heroic content is made for, are those that enjoy...well, progressing! If you pull a boss, you are progressing, pushing people through it with a buff turns it into farming, very few people enjoy farming. Anyone that doesn't enjoy progression should probably not participate in progression raiding. Just like I don't enjoy arenas so I don't participate in them. I can always do some arenas and see the content, just like someone who doesn't want to raid can join LFR and see the fights.

By the same token, you're just mass speculating that people would continue to pay their subs for content they can't progress through. Your argument assumes Blizzard literally does things for no reason at all - it's common sense that if you lower the raid difficulty over time, people will be able to get farther and they have to be subscribing to do so.

You aren't making any sense and your entire argument stops having any merit whatsoever apart at the point you conceptually argue the achievement isn't good enough because while you're getting what you want but no, it bothers you deep down other players are doing it. Gimme a break.

 

[Anoregon]

If nobody needs it, why is it in the game?.

Is that a serious question? It's ridiculous how black and white everything is with you regarding this. How in the hell does it matter if it's necessary. That's not even a legitimate concern, in my opinion. It's not a thing we should be concerned with. This is a video game. The implication that only "necessary" features should exist, and "unnecessary" features should be removed is absolutely, unequivocally absurd.

The reason people comment on the amount of people who clear raids on relevant difficulties is because, despite your dismissal, it is absolutely an important metric in determining content consumption and difficulty, which are important to not only many players, but Blizzard.

You can't take the position that difficulty nerfs are somehow cheapening the game or giving people who don't deserve to beat content the ability to do so while summarily dismissing statistics that essentially prove you wrong. It also isn't terribly convincing when you try to draw parallels across Rading and leveling/PvP, because they are all entirely different aspects of the game with different goals, methods of progression, and restrictions. Anyone who wants to hit max level can. It is purely an issue of time and nothing else. PvP is an entirely separate beast and it's totally disingenuous to try and relate it to raid progression because the very purpose of PvP is to directly pit skill against skill without other influences.

Raids exist to be completed. Not by everyone, not on all difficulties but that's why they are there. It's what they are built for. ICC/DS style buffs simply increase the amount of people who kill a given boss on a given difficulty over time. They reason they cap at ~30% is because Blizzard doesn't make absolute, black and white judgements like you are implying, and want to maintain a level that still keeps the heroic fights challenging for a majority of the people who attempt them. The "Well why not make them 80%" is a total non-starter of an argument, because anyone approaching this rationally can realize that there is always a balancing act of difficulty and accessibility.

 

[eudaemonic]

Oi. All this arguing has put my brain in Brick Tamland mode.


Btw, if anyone knows where to find an animated gif of the baby raptors and Subject Nine piling into the rocket and bailing out, please let me know. I just did that quest for the first time last night and loved that moment.