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World of Warcraft |OT4| "Why do we keep playing? It is simply in our nature."

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B

Bizazedo

Member
Deputy Moonman said:
For starters, it's not possible to grind out enough valor points to get completely geared up in a couple of days even without rep requirements. It's like you're forgetting that rep and valor are tied together and that it takes a while to even get 1000 valor points. Players are still faced with months of grinding rep and valor before getting everything they could possibly get from rep gear (since shado-pan and august celestials daily quests do not unlock until revered with golden lotus). So again, why is that a problem? I'm not even saying they should increase the amount of valor we get for doing things. But I don't think there is any reason to cap the small increments of valor we get either. You are really adamant about blizzard's position for whatever reason as if I really expect blizzard to change everything just because I don't like the way it is currently. It's not really that big of a deal lol.
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Well, first off, this entire argument is wrong. Especially with no rep requirements.

I can cap Valor in a few days. This is all without really going hard (to me). I could do it in a day if I was motivated (I am not, I'm actually pretty lazy).

If there was no cap, I'd be chain running heroics or Scenarios whenever not raiding and I and others would be absolutely pulverizing the VP gained meters. We wouldn't stop until everything was maxed out.

This would then motivate people to crush rep grinds even harder than they did. I hate to even admit this, but one Sunday I grinded out 7 Keys to the Caches for Golden Lotus (zero Sky Crystals of course) and I grinded to 20 Dread Crystals a few times. That would only increase.

Add to that that you only need revered and well....

Deputy Moonman said:
EDIT:

And yet all the gear is there and available to deck your character out (if you want to call decking your character out in sub normal and heroic raid gear, decking your character out) outside of LFR and normal raiding. And I'm sorry, the whole "forcing players to do X amount of whatever" argument is so not valid to me. No one is required to do anything in wow and if guilds want to go nazi on their members, it's up to the members of the guild to make the right decision and leave if that's gonna cause them to lose their enjoyment of the game. People shouldn't use their self-imposed rules as a reason or an excuse to exclude people who just want to play wow, casually. That's not my problem and I shouldn't be punished for it because of a bunch of masochistic players.

All I'm doing are the dailies that give me charms while grinding rep. I'm not trying to stock pile them. But the ones I have i want to be able to use. We're talking about the difference between having 3 elder charms per week, and 6. Okay? Not that big of a deal. And the whole "it takes zero skill or effort" is nothing more than your opinion. To others, grinding out dailies and doing LFR does take effort and skill, or at least time. It's still not free. And don't forget that the reward is lesser gear than normal raiding gear and most definitely less than heroic gear. I dont understand why that makes people go all crazy. People keep talking like LFR and rep grinding is rewarding players with 509 i-level gear and it's not. Just because it's purple doesn't make it amazing. Just pretend it's blue and maybe it wouldn't be such an issue anymore.

Also, i'm not stupid. I understand the role of gear helping progression having raided from vanilla through early cata in a semi-competitive guild. I was just using the example that it's fun to get gear regardless of whether or not I'm trying to raid. Not so much in the past, but definitely nowadays I think players that only see gear as meant for raiding are more mixed up than I am. I'm looking at the game as a whole, and gear is most certainly meant also for players who aren't trying to progress through end game content in a serious manner.
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Blizzard doesn't want people to too easily cap. It would be bad for the game in the long run. There's a balance they have to run in keeping it "attainable" for the masses and hard enough to still elicit that "YES!" feeling when you do get something.

Despite my own personal feeling that it is too easy, it's not so far that I think it's into disastrous territory. Yet.

They're not that far away from it either, imo :(.
 
Robin64

Robin64

Member
Loot changes in 5.2

Coming to the PTR in the near future will be a new designation of item type in Normal and Heroic raids for non-tier pieces. Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.

This new item designation is being added for a couple reasons, but first and foremost to make loot drops more interesting overall, especially after you have earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder on farm. As you’re working on progression, those first few bosses can now continue to provide a chance at upgrades, making repeated kills potentially more exciting and rewarding. Those additional upgrades can then help to slowly raise power, and boost you over whatever progression roadblock you may hit.

We’ve also received a lot of feedback regarding 25-player raids, and have been looking for ways to address some concerns. Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups. It’s unfortunately easy for a 25-player guild to collapse down into a 10-player guild, but very unlikely for the opposite to happen. However, we like 25-player raiding and don’t want to see it go away. Like many players, we love the epic feeling that comes with banding together more massive groups to battle powerful foes, we love that there’s opportunity for those groups to try out new players or unusual comps without causing a huge burden, and we want to support the larger raiding guilds. That said, we’re also concerned that over-rewarding the 25-player guilds—if, for example, we went back to a higher item level across the board for 25s, as was the case for Icecrown Citadel—would feel like a slap in the face to the many 10-player raiders out there, who are the majority of our Normal and Heroic raiders.

To attempt to navigate this minefield, we’re going to try having Thunderforged items drop more frequently in 25-player raids. They’ll be somewhat rare in both cases compared to the standard versions that’ll drop, but they’ll be even rarer in 10s. Overall, a 25-player group will be more likely to end up with a slightly higher item level after several weeks of raiding.

It’s important to keep in mind that this only affects 10- and 25-player Normal and Heroic raids, and tier-15 armor pieces won’t be available in Thunderforged quality at all. We’re curious to hear your thoughts about these changes, and what you think once you begin seeing them on the PTR.
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B

Berordn

Member
Not the biggest fan, but it's not such an upgrade that it forces 25 man raids again. Interesting experiment anyway.

I'm sure 5.3 will add the ability to thunderforge your items and close the gap too.
 
B

Bizazedo

Member
Torn on it, and not in a "I think this idea sucks" way, but it does make me feel like they're just throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks.

Of course, I thought upgrading was a good idea and am still slightly miffed they're removing it, so w/e.
 
Robin64

Robin64

Member
Gief

MMOChampion said:
epicbatmounts.jpg
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C

Chie Satonaka

Member
Rokam said:
Oh god legendary PvP MetaGem... what are they doing? Going to be a lot of pissed off players.
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Right here. I'm upset because it doesn't seem like there's any direction. Nobody is going to keep a 496 Sha weapon over a 522 drop from a normal, that's just silly. And I don't even have a normal one (yet).

Not only that, I still have to spend 11 gold for a new gem and the breath of the black prince again.

I feel like I'm wasting my time with this stupid series of quests.
 
M

mileS

Member
Why do they insist on constantly changing the way stats on items are displayed? Am I the only one that finds it more difficult to see what stats are on items at first glance? Ok difficult is probably the wrong word. I just don't understand the reasoning behind changes like this.
 
U

Ultratech

Member
Bat mounts look awesome. I really WANT one now.

Some of these achievement names are pretty funny:
-Ready for RAAAAIIIIDDD?!?ing
-This Isn't Even My Final Form
-You Made Me Bleed My Own Blood
-Millions of Years of Evolution vs. My Fist
-You Said Crossing the Streams Was Bad
-Boop

Rokam said:
Oh god legendary PvP MetaGem... what are they doing? Going to be a lot of pissed off players.
Click to expand...

Ugh. Looks like that's not all the meta gems though, since the ones so far all have Stamina, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of Ranged damage option (unless it's considered Melee for Hunters...idk).

Interestingly, all the meta gems require a ilvl 502 item except the PvP one which requires 476.
 
R

Rokal

Member
Each 5.2 raid boss will have a chance of dropping this new designation of a particular item that’s 6 item levels higher than their counterparts. These higher quality versions will be called “Thunderforged”. This means that there will be five variations of some items. You’ll now see a 5.2 raid item of LFR quality at item level 502, the same item in Normal quality at item level 522, the item in Normal Thunderforged quality at item level 528, the Heroic version of the item at level 535, and the Heroic Thunderforged version of the item at level 541.
Click to expand...

I'll go ahead and say I don't like this idea. Even if you put aside the rift this creates between 25 and 10 man guilds, I don't want there to be a good and a bad version of every item that drops in a raid. It's going to make non-Thunderforged loot feel less exciting to get and it's going to mean that you need to run a raid much longer (likely until the next patch) if you're attempting to get BiS gear or are helping your guild-mates get remaining upgrades (which will always exist if everyone is waiting for Thunderforged versions of their items to drop).

They need to just rip off the band-aid and move to one raid size, 10-man or 15-man, rather than trying to placate the remaining 25-man guilds with these bad itemization choices. My 10-man guild is already on the ropes due to disinterest in MoP raiding and this may be the final blow for us. Making the loot we do get less appealing and asking us to run the raids indefinitely isn't going to re-ignite anyones interest in raiding.
 
B

Berordn

Member
Lil' Rag already does this, and since he's a fucking stove I don't see why Pierre wouldn't.

MAN REMEMBER WHEN BATTLE PETS USED TO BE BASED ON ANIMALS
 
A

ampere

Member
Ultratech said:
Ugh. Looks like that's not all the meta gems though, since the ones so far all have Stamina, and there doesn't seem to be any sort of Ranged damage option (unless it's considered Melee for Hunters...idk).

Interestingly, all the meta gems require a ilvl 502 item except the PvP one which requires 476.
Click to expand...

The stamina is probably a placeholder stat, I'm sure the healing one will be intellect, etc
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
Rokal said:
I'll go ahead and say I don't like this idea. Even if you put aside the rift this creates between 25 and 10 man guilds, I don't want there to be a good and a bad version of every item that drops in a raid. It's going to make non-Thunderforged loot feel less exciting to get and it's going to mean that you need to run a raid much longer (likely until the next patch) if you're attempting to get BiS gear or are helping your guild-mates get remaining upgrades (which will always exist if everyone is waiting for Thunderforged versions of their items to drop).

They need to just rip off the band-aid and move to one raid size, 10-man or 15-man, rather than trying to placate the remaining 25-man guilds with these bad itemization choices. My 10-man guild is already on the ropes due to disinterest in MoP raiding and this may be the final blow for us. Making the loot we do get less appealing and asking us to run the raids indefinitely isn't going to re-ignite anyones interest in raiding.
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I definitely agree that it seems like a bad idea, pretty much for the reasons you have.

Second half of your post though...urgh..

The reason blizzard is trying to placate 25 man guilds now, is because they removed the incentives to do 25 man raiding in the first place. The idea that there shouldn't be any difference between doing 10 and 25 man is incredibly stupid, tactics and difficulty vary.

But like I said, I agree with that this particular idea is not very good at all.

I'd be much more in favor of them going back to seperate achievements. Killing a boss in 10 man, is not the same as killing it in 25 man, and vice versa. So seperate achievements make sense. That and some sort of difference in gear, be it name, color, ilvl or whatever.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Robin64 said:
Not to mention Engineering gets yet another mount.
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Everyone who picks a profession other than Engineering gets hosed in the first place because they don't have engineering. Seriously, every other profession sucks.
 
R

Rokal

Member
Trickster said:
The reason blizzard is trying to placate 25 man guilds now, is because they removed the incentives to do 25 man raiding in the first place. The idea that there shouldn't be any difference between doing 10 and 25 man is incredibly stupid, tactics and difficulty vary.
Click to expand...

I definitely get that. 25 mans are certainly harder to organize and are sometimes mechanically more difficult. I still don't think they belong in the game at this point. They're catering to the overwhelming minority of raiders and they're still on the decline. Making Blizzard tightly balance content for 5 different versions of the same raid isn't helping anyone, nor are ill-conceived ideas like Thundertouched weapons that are intended to encourage 25-man raiding.

It would be better for Blizzard to move down to one raid size so that they could focus on making more/better content rather than balancing 5 different versions of the same zone and constantly trying to think up new ways to make 25-mans more appealing. 10-mans are certainly the most logical option since that's where most players are these days already, but 15-mans could provide a compromise between the strengths of each size. Regardless, the two-size balancing has been a failure for years. It's time to move on.
 
R

Rokam

Member
Trickster said:
What is that?
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Solo instance. Supposedly tuned to your class and spec. Examples given were for tanks to pick up adds as they spawn while mitigating and doing enough damage. Rogues to sneak around shit and kill stuff, healers to keep a group of npcs alive. Stuff like that.
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
Rokal said:
I definitely get that. 25 mans are certainly harder to organize and are sometimes mechanically more difficult. I still don't think they belong in the game at this point. They're catering to the overwhelming minority of raiders and they're still on the decline. Making Blizzard tightly balance content for 5 different versions of the same raid isn't helping anyone, nor are ill-conceived ideas like Thundertouched weapons that are intended to encourage 25-man raiding.

It would be better for Blizzard to move down to one raid size so that they could focus on making more/better content rather than balancing 5 different versions of the same zone and constantly trying to think up new ways to make 25-mans more appealing. 10-mans are certainly the most logical option since that's where most players are these days already, but 15-mans could provide a compromise between the strengths of each size. Regardless, the two-size balancing has been a failure for years. It's time to move on.
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The thing is though, the very reason 25 man guilds are so uncommon these days, are for the very reasons you talk about.

Of course people will go opt to make 10 man guilds, when they are much easier to manage, and in a lot of cases also have easier encounter ( my guild started this expansion by running 2 10 man groups, now 25 man instead. So I speak from experience ).

Especially because there is virtually zero incentive in the game itself to go 25 man.

Bring back the incentives like higher ilvl and seperate achievements + ach awards. And I'll guarantee you that there will be a surge in 25 man guilds. People are just doing 10 man now because it's the easy road to travel


Rokam said:
Solo instance. Supposedly tuned to your class and spec. Examples given were for tanks to pick up adds as they spawn while mitigating and doing enough damage. Rogues to sneak around shit and kill stuff, healers to keep a group of npcs alive. Stuff like that.
Click to expand...

Sounds kinda pointless. We already have the fight club. And making solo instances that all have to be tuned and made for each class and spec would be a huge waste of resources.

It would probably be a shittier version of scenarios, with just as shitty rewards.


McNei1y said:
heroic blade lord is the stupidest thing in this game.
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I'm curious, why? :p
 
B

Berordn

Member
Trickster said:
Sounds kinda pointless. We already have the fight club. And making solo instances that all have to be tuned and made for each class and spec would be a huge waste of resources.

It would probably be a shittier version of scenarios, with just as shitty rewards.
Click to expand...

Think of them as solo challenge modes, designed to let you learn a spec without ruining everyone else's day.
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
McNei1y said:
rng is just incredibly stupid and should never be the relying factor in a fight.

Unseen Strikes can either do nothing or completely kill you. Wind Step owns when paired with Unseen Strike.
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Unseen strikes are very predictable if you understand how it works.

The cone will be in the exact same direction as the guy with the mark last moved. So the best way to do it is just designate a place for people to gather. And then make it so the guy with the mark stand maybe 5 yards away from the gathering point.

Then a second or so before blade lord uses unseen strike, just have the guy with the mark move towards the raid with a quick tap of his movement key, basically just pressing a move key so his last movement direction is towards the raid.


Rokal said:
People form into 10-mans because it is easier to organize. Why is this a bad thing?
Click to expand...


It's not. I see the benefit of it very clearly. I raided in a 10 man guild with some good friends of mine, and that was probably much more fun than if we had raided as a 25 man guild with 15 strangers.

However people saying that blizzard should just remove 25 man because it's not the most popular option anymore, due to the fact that it's harder to maintain and operate, while offering no incentive. Are being very silly imo.

There's plenty of people that would like to raid 25 man, but can't because there simply aren't enough 25 guilds anymore. There's probably also plenty of guilds that goes 10 man because they don't want to put in the extra work and dedication in being a 25 man guild, when they don't get anything out of it.


Berordn said:
Think of them as solo challenge modes, designed to let you learn a spec without ruining everyone else's day.
Click to expand...

It might be good in a perfect world. But I think the time and effort it would take to tune them properly for each class and spec would be absurd.
 
M

McNei1y

Member
Trickster said:
Unseen strikes are very predictable if you understand how it works.

The cone will be in the exact same direction as the guy with the mark last moved. So the best way to do it is just designate a place for people to gather. And then make it so the guy with the mark stand maybe 5 yards away from the gathering point.

Then a second or so before blade lord uses unseen strike, just have the guy with the mark move towards the raid with a quick tap of his movement key, basically just pressing a move key so his last movement direction is towards the raid.
Click to expand...

Nah we have it all down. It's just complete and utter crap.

And I'm not referring to just the Unseen Strike. Cause randomly, the cleave might be behind everyone. The real problem is random Wind Step deaths from the Unseen Strike. Or people getting bounced from tornados back into the tempest.
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
McNei1y said:
Nah we have it all down. It's just complete and utter crap.

And I'm not referring to just the Unseen Strike. Cause randomly, the cleave might be behind everyone. The real problem is random Wind Step deaths from the Unseen Strike. Or people getting bounced from tornados back into the tempest.
Click to expand...

The cleave isn't randomly behind everyone unless it's some kinda bug, or the guy with the mark moves around and causes the cleave to happen in the wrong direction.

Not sure what random wind step death from unseen strike you are refeering to exactly. We don't have that problem.

People running into tornadoes and getting flung into the tempest sounds hilarious. If they can't avoid those big ass tornadoes when running away from tempest, then they honestly just suck.
 
R

Rokam

Member
Legendary Gem Stuff from GC's twitter.

Q. I know it's only data-mined info but it looks like there isn't a legendary meta for hunters. Oversight or missing info?
A. Missing info. The capacitive one works for weapons, not just melee weapons.

Q. I'm confused. I thought you were going away from PvE manditory for PvP? Whats with new meta gems?
A. The PvP gem won't require raiding.

Also not sure if anyone saw this but:
Sigil of Power now only drop in Mogu'shan Vaults, and Sigil of Wisdom will only drop in Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring, with a very small chance to drop in LFR Mogu'shan Vaults. This should ensure that players who had access to Mogu'shan Vaults for a longer period of time are now seeing more Sigil of Wisdom.
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I really don't like this change, I already have more Wisdom on my priest, and now the only place I can get them is MSV. I don't think they thought this through.
 
G

Gentleman Jack

Member
Sigil of Power now only drop in Mogu'shan Vaults, and Sigil of Wisdom will only drop in Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring, with a very small chance to drop in LFR Mogu'shan Vaults. This should ensure that players who had access to Mogu'shan Vaults for a longer period of time are now seeing more Sigil of Wisdom.
Click to expand...

Eh? This is extraordinarily short-sighted as someone who still needs all 10 Wisdom sigils in 5.2 is going to spend much much longer finishing that part of the quest.
 
M

McNei1y

Member
Trickster said:
The cleave isn't randomly behind everyone unless it's some kinda bug, or the guy with the mark moves around and causes the cleave to happen in the wrong direction.

Not sure what random wind step death from unseen strike you are refeering to exactly. We don't have that problem.

People running into tornadoes and getting flung into the tempest sounds hilarious. If they can't avoid those big ass tornadoes when running away from tempest, then they honestly just suck.
Click to expand...

I wish I had fraps so I could show you what I'm referring to. We would've downed this fucker two weeks ago if this shit didn't happen.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
HarryDemeanor said:
Cross-realm heirlooms. They're finally going to do it!
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I have my doubts that they'll ever do this, much less as a "big feature." The "last patch" usually has to last a long enough time that they need a feature that will get people to subscribe for a while/get excited about the game for a bit.

The obvious big feature they could add in is scaling raids a la Challenge Mode so that you could take a group into any dungeon or raid. Whether this is ever possible, I don't know.
 
Robin64

Robin64

Member
It will probably be a feature that allows you to enter party leaders phases and level down to play with lowbie friends or something.
 
R

Raskett

Member
Knch said:
I also have no clue about these mana problems people keep talking about, I never run out of mana out in the world, scenario's or heroics. In LFR (the few I did) I only had to use life tap on the longer fights (which are the ones where other DPS dies...).
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I play as a mage and I run out of mana at times, purely because I have recently changed to arcane for raiding and have yet to learn how to manage this properly - gem at X% evo at X% etc. Doesn't seem to be that difficult though, just need to get used to the new spec.
 
R

Raskett

Member
Staying on the current topic though, 5.2 looks to be huge. I feel it pretty daunting the amount of additions to the game, cannot complain as its great to get so much new stuff (v. appreciated after cata), still pretty daunting though. I realise we don't have to do everything although from my experience alot of MMO players tend to be pretty much completionists.

Maybe I should start sleeping less.
 
R

Rokam

Member
Looks like one of the Mantid rares will be a gun, I guess it's been in the files for awhile. I hope we get an item that lets us turn into a Mantid with a short cd..tired of the long ass cooldowns. Or better yet let me just get a Mantid mount.. Thanks!
 
R

Rokam

Member
I was thinking more along the lines of an actual Mantid, like for the dailies how you ride on their back (or if you're a gnome/goblin in their arms). The Kruchong though would make a good pet, so long as it never made the annoying as sounds that the one in Dread Wastes makes when it follows you around.
 
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