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World of Warcraft |OT6| This wolf still has teeth

Alex

Member
You don't want that much volatility in what should be a stable earner for a AAA publisher.



I suspect the die-hard fans of the game outnumber 1m. I'd think the number would be closer to 4 or 5 mil who would just play (or keep paying for) WoW until it shut off. Any lower than that and I'd take that as a sign that MMOs as a genre are contracting towards niche status.

MMOs were always somewhat niche, WoW was the exception. They (MMOs) had lots of room to grow with WoW's boom but the design logic has been so fatigued and samey that it's really stunted growth. It's like the same handful of people bouncing between games at this point, which is a shame because it's hard to believe there isn't a market for more types of persistent, hobbyist titles.

It is how it is though, none of my friends will even play an MMO anymore. People are excited for more focused ORPGs like Diablo or *sigh* Phantasy Star but when you introduce that insulting quest slog to anything it's like poison. People used to not make it to cap because it was too unforgiving now people don't make it to cap because they get really fucking bored 1/3rd of the way through.

I'd do anything to get away from these quests in these games... I actually miss the days of grinding, at least back then things could pose a threat to you and you got to engage in decent combat regularly as opposed to chewing terrain and waiting for poor quality scripting.
 
MMOs were always somewhat niche, WoW was the exception. They (MMOs) had lots of room to grow with WoW's boom but the design logic has been so fatigued and samey that it's really stunted growth. It's like the same handful of people bouncing between games at this point, which is a shame because it's hard to believe there isn't a market for more types of persistent, hobbyist titles.

Agreed. It's easy to lose sight that WoW is the outlier in a genre that took everyone by surprise in its meteoric adoption rate.
 

ZenaxPure

Member
Unsurprising to say the least. Despite some people trying to argue otherwise WoD launched with almost nothing and near 6 months later continues to have nothing. To me that's really the craziest part of all this, if you quit the first week of the expansion and came back now the game is basically unchanged except for the release of BRF which a lot of people just don't give a shit about.

Curious to see Q2 with the tokens though, it's still a big question mark to me. I feel like most people paying with tokens are probably people that would have kept playing the game anyway even without them? But honestly that is just a wild guess. No idea what sort of impact they will have.
 
Curious to see Q2 with the tokens though, it's still a big question mark to me. I feel like most people paying with tokens are probably people that would have kept playing the game anyway even without them? But honestly that is just a wild guess. No idea what sort of impact they will have.

I'm betting that tokens will convert more of the playerbase to the same kind of month-to-month playstyle behind the post WotLK volatility in the subs. It'll be a few quarters of content releases to really show that pattern, but if it's not a steady decline I predict people hoarding tokens are just going to burn them whenever they get that itch, play for a month, then quit and come back 3-6 months later.
 

Granadier

Is currently on Stage 1: Denial regarding the service game future
Yeah, it's still good, but the change is where the worry lies. The drop is extremely sharp.

You don't want that much volatility in what should be a stable earner for a AAA publisher.

Well based on the graph it looks like there were an enormous amount of people that came back for WoD. Then it crashed again, but only back to where it was before, maybe slightly lower. So overall the subs drop wasn't too terrible.

Now having the subs spike and drop like that seems like a larger concern for WoD itself since that probably indicates that a lot of the returning members were not satisfied enough.

Agreed. It's easy to lose sight that WoW is the outlier in a genre that took everyone by surprise in its meteoric adoption rate.

Very true. Even after 11 years WoW is still the exceedingly dominant player in the genre. I suspect the genre dies before WoW does.
 
Two tiers of content in three tiers of time! Woo. Next expansion is probably out late next year, unless they announce it way before Blizzcon, which seems unlikely. Going to get veeeerrrrry familiar with Hellfire Citadel.

Edit: I will say though, that I only resubbed a month ago cause of the gold token, and am probably going to stay subbed more or less forever because of it.
 
I hope they recognize what they did wrong. Despite a decent premise and solid leveling experience, those are only hooks. You need actual max-level content dripped in at a steady pace to keep people interested. And that can't just be raids, since there are many more casual players than there are serious raiders who will play regardless.

It really seems like they need better management team that sets stricter deadlines. There needs to be a subtler touch in overall design direction too - there always seem to be larger than expected negative ripple effects for all the "progress" they make. The team needs to be more agile in responding to problems with grace, rather than switching gears completely on every issue.

Other than that, not much that hasn't already been said.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
They absolutely deserve to lose that many players. After how many months of Siege? After how many players you got back for WoD due to a front-loaded expansion? And you fucked that all up?

Honestly, they deserve to lose more than that.
 

ampere

Member
the current wow team is complete garbage and driving the game to the ground as fast as they can

I hate to be negative, but I have also been quite unhappy with the direction of the game's development during WoD moreso than the past. And if this is really a two raid tier expac... lol
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
It's amazing that they spent so much time and money in Ashran and Garrisons yet both are completely superficial. There is nothing about those that is required to tell the story being told in Warlords of Draenor. Those quest givers could be placed at a static town. Those missions add nothing to the game and don't like make the world easier or whatever for you. There is no amazing result of winning Ashran. Even in the lore, it's not like 'oh we got Ashran now you guys don't have it! Because we're apparently fighting each other!' Even the Vale meant something and had a great hidden power.

They spent all this time on shit that doesn't mean anything.
 

ZenaxPure

Member
It's amazing that they spent so much time and money in Ashran and Garrisons yet both are completely superficial.

Just from a resource perspective garrisons have actually bothered me for a while now. Was there any real reason for there to be a level 2 garrison and level 2 buildings when you move on from them so fast? Seems like a lot of time was spent creating all this custom art for the garrison and then most of it is barely ever seen.

I mean yeah they will surely reuse all those buildings in future expansions in quest areas but man I dunno, seems like a lot of work went there for what basically amounted to a week of waiting to replace those buildings.
 
Just from a resource perspective garrisons have actually bothered me for a while now. Was there any real reason for there to be a level 2 garrison and level 2 buildings when you move on from them so fast? Seems like a lot of time was spent creating all this custom art for the garrison and then most of it is barely ever seen.

I have a pair of level 2 garrisons on two of my alts because I'm too lazy to level either of them past 93 :D
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
My 3 'mains' (Shaman, Warrior, and Hunter) all have the level 3 garrison so I can have my level 3 inn to get Treasure Hunters.

My 6 alts all had level 2 as there was no real reason to go past it.
 

ZenaxPure

Member
My 3 'mains' (Shaman, Warrior, and Hunter) all have the level 3 garrison so I can have my level 3 inn to get Treasure Hunters.

My 6 alts all had level 2 as there was no real reason to go past it.

Well my main point is why bother when it could have been a 2 tiered system, having a level 2 garrison on one of your alts you barely play doesn't seem like a compelling reason to have put so much time and effort into making all those art assets.
 
Like I said, project resource management/allocation seems to be a big issue. I know Blizzard is generally slow - that's okay - but they need to pace themselves better even if it means creating content earlier and having staggered releases. Obviously we don't know the exact internal workings (I'm sure it's quite complex with people working on the next expansion(s) years in advance), but whoever is in charge of that needs to take a step back and reevaluate.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Got this trinket from a Garrison mission on my healer alt:

EP6hCMC.png


Avoidance? Really? =/
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Got this trinket from a Garrison mission on my healer alt:

EP6hCMC.png


Avoidance? Really? =/

Their 'secondary stats'. That's a whole other thing I could have ripped into on my issues with WoD. Holy shit, who was the genius that thought 'let's make our gear more like Diablo!'
 

ZenaxPure

Member
I'm guessing 7 mil is going to be the new baseline.

Going forward? I could see subs going down even more to be honest, I don't think 6.2 is going to have much to keep most people playing for a long period of time as it is still going to have a lot of the problems WoD has at its core. I feel like the only sort of saving grace for subs right now is the token but we don't know what impact it will have at all right now, can only guess.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
token is down to 19k. bought another one.

feeling kind of dumb for buying them over 20k at any point now since it seems to dip to <20k every other day
 
I'm still interested in playing, but the reason I stopped was because pubs really didn't make that jump from Normal Highmaul to Normal BRF and I kind of lost interest. Though I'm sure they're doing it now after the ilvl boost and time to get adjusted.

That and they nerfed execute for no apparent reason pve wise without compensating mortal strike. Playing swtor right now though for that sweet 12x boost and to catch up on that expansion story.
 

Renekton

Member
To me that's really the craziest part of all this, if you quit the first week of the expansion and came back now the game is basically unchanged except for the release of BRF which a lot of people just don't give a shit about.
I hope they recognize what they did wrong. Despite a decent premise and solid leveling experience, those are only hooks. You need actual max-level content dripped in at a steady pace to keep people interested. And that can't just be raids, since there are many more casual players than there are serious raiders who will play regardless.
Honestly we don't know what gamers want. Only Blizzard has the actual statistical data what type of content people consume and to what extent. The answer will probably surprise us.

For example we don't know if the garrison drop-off is due to a) Garrisons are bad period or b) they need to improve Garrisons to have better CoC-like hooks, or c) Garrison is even a factor.
 

Dot50Cal

Banned
In light of the sub numbers, heres my rant:

The big problem I have with WoD is that as a non-raider, there really isn't compelling content to do. In MoP and other expansions, there were dailies, and cool new zones like Isle of Thunder or Timeless Isle that lured you out into the word to collect things and progress your character besides raiding. Dungeons we're tedious, sure, but there was a reason to run them (what most casuals consider end-game). Justice, Valor, they served a purpose and you felt like you were progressing your character if you didn't have time to raid.

We don't have that in WoD. I remember the marketing for the game talking about how the whole world would be this huge timeless isle, designed with treasures and rares to get you out in the world...except all that stuff is a 1 and done deal. So its not like timeless isle or isle of thunder at all. Hell, now the rares become non-rare and drop junk when you kill them again.

Any dailies were replaced by "grind 100 mobs to get apexis (a useless resource) crystals!" Reps...Gring 99999999 mobs to rep up!

Its probably one of the laziest expansions they've ever produced at end-game, and I can't wait for someone to reveal whatever shit-storm happened at Blizzard to cause it. All this on top of the fact that when Titan got scuttled, the WoW team was bigger than ever. Yet we sit in the most dry content expansion yet. The icing on the cake...it was 10$ more! I seriously wonder if they didn't just write WoD off as a failure, push it out the door (2 raid tiers, REALLY?! What a last minute change from PTR -- having Korgath escape vs dying in Highmaul...Cho'gall's story ended abruptly with no explanation what the pale orcs were...) so the bulk of the team could work on 7.0 and try to get through WoD as quickly as possible. Patch 6.1 ....I don't even know what I can say about this. I think this picture sums it up, really:

wtf.jpg

What a joke.

Some MAJOR people left the company during WoD's development and on top of that the initial plan, to even the months before launch had huge content cuts (move-able garrisons, Heirloom tab, Capital cities relegated to Ashran, Farhalon gone, Ashran scope cut down considerably). Not to mention the fact that it was delayed insanely from the announcement at Blizzcon's Q&A panel, where they were anticipating launching months before they ended up at. Don't even get me started on the launch, and proceeding week(s). The game had broken quests which were required to do ANYTHING (setting up your garrison) leading to a huge bottleneck of players in one small sub zone. Then the lag, then the phase breaking parts....For a good week and a half WoD was un-playable. Zone servers would crash and it took their team ages to scramble and upgrade their server hardware to accommodate the load. What the hell happened to the "Green Fire" type quest line they were planning!? If I recall, shamans were heavily implied to have a quest line like that. I even recall posts about potential "extra" legendaries that were for the "real raiders". Again, Shamans were thrown out there as a candidate (due to their "connection" with Draenor. All that shit, just straight up scrapped.

MoP had this great over-arching quest line through the patches where you'd see Garrosh's descent into madness. In WoD we have shitty garrison apexis quests which have very little plot/dialogue/purpose.

First we had Ghostcrawler leave, which people celebrated at the time. When Titan flopped, Rob Pardo came back to the WoW team and then HE left the company as well.

Some shit wen't down and I really want someone to release a book or do an interview about it.
 

Robin64

Member
I have no factions in WoD at Exalted, which is a first. In every expansion so far, I got either some or all of them up to that.

zhVRkYB.png


Yeah, I could go back and do some old ones I'm still missing, I guess As the guy in the other thread said, it's still content!!
 

Dot50Cal

Banned
I have no factions in WoD at Exalted, which is a first. In every expansion so far, I got either some or all of them up to that.

Same here, well, thats a lie, I just got exhalted with Arakoa, but that was only through doing Spires completely and getting 11 alts supplying my main with the rep tokens from garrison missions.

I have the insane title, I have every rep maxxed that you could still do in previous expansions. Its a huge issue. I could really go on with the issues of this expansion, gated professions...so much more crap I'm remembering as I type all this out but I'm tired and I have work in the morning. Blah.
 
I have no factions in WoD at Exalted, which is a first. In every expansion so far, I got either some or all of them up to that.

Yeah, I could go back and do some old ones I'm still missing, I guess As the guy in the other thread said, it's still content!!

The lore behind the new reps is thin and the rewards for hitting exalted are pretty weak. I can't imagine grinding out exalted again on any of my alts.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Garrisons drove me out about a month ago. I don't have lots of time to dedicate to the game, so what time I do have I want to be something worthwhile. Logging in and doing 20 minutes of garrison shit on two 100s was completely sucking the fun out of the game. Yes I know I could just not do that, but there is something psychological about having this timed F2P style shit that meant that no matter how hard I tried, the garrisons made the game feel like a job rather than some fun to be had.

Maybe if they make the garrisons more automated so they aren't an un-fun time sink I will come back and level some alts.
 

ampere

Member
Yeah Garrisons were a neat thing initially, but they really have already overstayed their welcome. Make them get destroyed or something at the end of WoD and never do them again.

And while they're at it, remove Archaeology from the game.
 
I have no factions in WoD at Exalted, which is a first. In every expansion so far, I got either some or all of them up to that.

zhVRkYB.png


Yeah, I could go back and do some old ones I'm still missing, I guess As the guy in the other thread said, it's still content!!
I only have the Steamwheedle guys and that's it. All the other ones? Fuck off with that grind after revered.

Maybe I should go back into BC and top off some rep I still need there. Or even timeless isle I guess. Never did hit exalted. Mostly everything else, outside of Draenor, I have capped.
 
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